Gun class for Utah teachers


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Car Knocker
October 13, 2006, 12:31 PM
http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650198346,00.html

Free concealed-weapons session is offered today

By Ben Winslow and Jennifer Toomer-Cook
Deseret Morning News
More than a dozen teachers and public school employees will spend part of their UEA weekend in a classroom — learning how to use a gun.
Clark Aposhian is offering a free class today to public school employees seeking to get their concealed- weapons permit.
"It is self-defense," he told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday. "But because teachers and school administrators and custodians are typically surrounded by students all day, any threat to any individual with a firearm would also be a threat to those students."
The concealed-weapons instructor's offer was met with opposition from some teachers and union representatives at the Utah Education Association's conference in Salt Lake City.
"We've always resisted the idea of arming school employees," said Susan Kuziak, executive director of the 18,000-member teachers union. "Though the intentions may be good, ultimately, the potential for harm is too great."
A handful of teachers interviewed at the UEA convention agreed. Some said the idea of guns in schools, even when toted by trusted colleagues, makes them nervous.
"Who's to say a kid couldn't take a gun from me or another teacher?" said Darren Dickson, a teacher at Altamont High in Duchesne County. "It's too much of a risk."
Aposhian said the recent school shootings across the nation prompted him to offer the free training. In addition to being a concealed-weapons instructor, he is the owner of FairWarning Firearm Training, the chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and the husband of a schoolteacher.
"Teachers are always complaining that they don't get support from the community," he said. "Here we are."
School districts have long grappled with the guns-on-campus issue. Federal law bans weapons — real or fake — from school property. But Utah law now makes clear schools can't prevent people with concealed-weapons permits from carrying firearms on campuses. Granite School District's policy, for example, allows permit holders to keep their gun "readily accessible for immediate use," but bans teachers from leaving their weapons in a desk drawer or coat closet.
Law enforcement officers never have to give up their guns at the school house door.
Aposhian said he does not want teachers to suddenly become "heroes" in the event of a school shooting. In fact, he said, they should continue to follow school lockdown procedures, which include teachers locking doors and remaining in classrooms.
"We discourage teachers from roaming the halls looking for the intruder," he said. "We're not trying to turn them into law enforcement in any way."
But the teachers union says that's how it feels.
"The knee-jerk reaction is, 'Let's scare the bad guys off,"' Kuziak said. "But people who have committed these acts are not stable and normal in their thinking," considering they've been willing to kill themselves, she said.
Still, that doesn't mean more can't be done in terms of firearms training for teachers, some say.
One suggestion is to offer that training to public school employees through the Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) Council. During a radio call-in show on Wednesday, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said he would be open to presenting that idea to POST.
However, Shurtleff's office insisted Thursday that despite broadcast reports, it was not an initiative of the Utah Attorney General's Office.
"The idea deserves public scrutiny to see if it has any merit," spokesman Paul Murphy said Thursday.
The UEA for one doesn't believe it does.
Yet there are teachers interested in Aposhian's invitation. So far, about 2 dozen teachers and public school employees have signed up for his class. Included with the free class is fingerprinting and photography for the concealed-weapons application. Public school employees will still have to pay a $59 application fee to the state.
Despite the UEA's opposition to the idea, Aposhian said he has not heard any detractors. He sees only an additional layer of school security with teachers legally and lawfully carrying concealed weapons.
"A shooter going in there may pause to reflect," he said. "Because they may find a teacher carrying a firearm for self-defense."


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E-mail: bwinslow@desnews.com; jtcook@desnews.com

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Aposhian is an outspoken voice for CCW and periodically holds these classes that grab headlines. I believe the last free class was for legislators and staff.

Note that the opposition to the free training is relatively moderate (no cries of "insanity", etc.) and no quotes from the professionally rabid anti-self-defense groups.

In case it isn't clear from the article, ALL school employees with a CFP can legally carry on all school premises, as can any other person with a CFP. School districts have enacted policies that reflect this and attempt to place the liability burden on the permit holder (I used the word "attempt" because, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no incident to test the policy to date).

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qlajlu
October 13, 2006, 02:56 PM
In addition to the article posted above, one of the TV stations had this on their news. Here is the link to the news video (http://www.kutv.com/video/?id=20138@kutv.dayport.com).

I will post the second part of this article after the 5 pm news if they post it to their Web site. The reporter doing the story said that the second part of his report contains the "anti's" points.

romma
October 13, 2006, 03:04 PM
"The knee-jerk reaction is, 'Let's scare the bad guys off,"' Kuziak said. "But people who have committed these acts are not stable and normal in their thinking," considering they've been willing to kill themselves, she said.
Wow! All I can say is wow... Well if they are not stable,,, then let's hope someone armed and ready will help stabilize them.. If needed that is.

romma
October 13, 2006, 03:20 PM
"We discourage teachers from roaming the halls looking for the intruder," he said. "We're not trying to turn them into law enforcement in any way."
But the teachers union says that's how it feels.
I could use some Di-gel Aposhian said he does not want teachers to suddenly become "heroes" in the event of a school shooting. In fact, he said, they should continue to follow school lockdown procedures, which include teachers locking doors and remaining in classrooms.
Let the teachers lock the doors, but why not let them be armed on the other side of those doors to protect the students from crazed madmen bent on death?

gunsmith
October 13, 2006, 03:46 PM
Who's to say a kid couldn't take a gun from me or another teacher?" said Darren Dickson,

Well Darren, being that it is so easy to take a gun away from an armed person, the next school shooting yer in, why, just grab the gun away from the bad guy:barf:

gunsmith
October 13, 2006, 03:53 PM
it is sound tactics, if a teacher secures his kids in one room then the only place he has to secure is the doorway. going down the hallway looking for shooters will leave his/her kids unprotected....you need a team of practiced LEO/swat/ infantry for clearing a school of an unknown nuber of shooters.

I would rather the teacher stays put and shoots the first badguy trying to enter the room....they're teachers, not ninja's

thpa
October 13, 2006, 04:12 PM
It's great to see a state make some sound legislation and allow permit holders to carry on school property. If we could only get PA legislators to think the same but even if such legislation made it through it would die on Rendells desk.
For all the PA voters on this board remember Santorum and Swann on November 7th.

romma
October 13, 2006, 04:20 PM
Gunsmith, you missunderstood my post. My need for Di-gel came the fact that person quoting "roaming the halls" was/is way off the mark to begin with. The teacher most certainly should focus on Their classrooms and not try to play cop, yet still maintain situational awareness.

gunsmith
October 13, 2006, 04:41 PM
If you look at my other post you'll see that I am often wrong!
Double naught spy is often quick to point this out, i wonder where he is now?:neener:

romma
October 13, 2006, 04:45 PM
No Prob here Gunsmith :)

Desertdog
October 13, 2006, 07:36 PM
Granite School District's policy, for example, allows permit holders to keep their gun "readily accessible for immediate use," but bans teachers from leaving their weapons in a desk drawer or coat closet.
Sounds good to me. This way the teachers would be armed wherever they are.

qlajlu
October 13, 2006, 09:18 PM
Here is the second part of the TV report (http://www.kutv.com/video/?id=20147@kutv.dayport.com) about Utah teachers taking classes for CCW. There is some resistance to the notion, but fortunately state law trumps the antis.

Desertdog
October 13, 2006, 10:35 PM
The only thing that would end the call for disarming th teachers would be an attack that was stopped by one of the armed teachers.

I wouldn't be surprised if the antis tried to get the Feds to come in to disarm the teachers.

Euclidean
October 13, 2006, 10:46 PM
My God, somebody out there actually gets it.

I almost wept. Somebody actually understands. It's not hopeless after all.

DWARREN123
October 13, 2006, 11:30 PM
I believe it is a step in the right direction. No one should be defenseless.

luzyfuerza
October 14, 2006, 12:31 AM
Several years ago, Congress passed and the President signed legislation creating "gun-free" zones around every school in the country. This law was challenged in the courts, and the Supreme Court struck it down. The rejection of the law was not based on second amendment grounds, on the Court's opinion that it exceeded Congress' authority under the commerce clause of the constitution.

Either way, guns on campus is no longer a federal issue.

Utah IS a very gun-friendly place. We allow licensed CWP holders to carry in schools, including teachers. Results: no school shootings, nobody's drowning in floods of blood from "gun violence".

Hmmm. Could it be that it isn't the guns, after all?

w.Clark
November 14, 2006, 01:44 AM
On our local news last night they did a story on a mock "shooter/intruder" drill.

They had all the kids run like heck and hide in the school. The teachers got all of them that they could into their classrooms, locked the doors and turned out the lights.

Those kids caught in the cafeteria attempted to find their own shelters. Some hid in vacant classrooms but were unable to lock the doors.

Results - Those in locked classrooms survived.
Those not in a locked room all died. They were all shot as they huddled together in the dark.

The "fake gunman just kept trying doors until he found one open and inside were kids. Blam, blam, blam blam, etc....

The school's procedures worked great for those that were inside a locked room but sealed the fate of anyone else.

The local district here in Salt Lake will be having a drill this week. I am going to petition to monitor it.

On an interesting note it was a bit discouraging to see these LEO's respond to the threat by walking right down the middle of the hallway where they knew a gunman was hiding. I hope someone evaluated their response and told them they might very well be dead too if this had been "real".

Since my original teacher/public school employee course on Oct 13th over 50 others have taken advantage of the classes.

This weekend will be our 7th legislator only class. We have taught well over 1/2 of Utah's legislature including the Governor and Lt Governor. Our Atty General, Mark Shurtleff, is also a great friend of the 2nd Amendment as well.

I encourage all of you instructor's out there in your respective states to offer such classes to your elected officials. Do not focus only on the pro gun legislator either. Encourage and even challenge those that are "less-educated" on firearms.

Don't tout it specifically as a CCW course rather as a firearm safety, legal and tactics course designed to introduce legislators to what everyone else is learning. Devote a good portion to real "myth busting" education on concealed carry truths.

If I can be of any help in setting these up contact me at clark@fairwarning.biz

Sincerely,
W. Clark Aposhian
Chairman Utah Shooting Sports Council
Chairman Utah Self-Defense Instructors' Network
Chairman Utah BCI Concealed Carry Review Board

qlajlu
November 15, 2006, 02:07 AM
On our local news last night they did a story on a mock "shooter/intruder" drill.
w.Clark, which station was that? I missed it and I would like to look it up on the Web. It would be nice when you post things like this to give us a URL if possible. Also would you tell us if you are allowed to monitor the next session?

Car Knocker
December 7, 2006, 09:10 PM
Officials split on teacher gun class

Some feel professionals should handle security

By Ben Winslow
Deseret Morning News

SANDY An idea to have teachers who want to carry guns to school undergo some level of police training will be left up to local school districts and police departments.


The Utah Peace Officer Standards and Training Council did not take action on the proposal, which was brought to Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff by a constituent in the Nebo School District.


"They're still going to be teachers, but they're going to carry a weapon," Shurtleff told the POST Council on Wednesday, adding that the idea would be "that they be allowed to have some training."


The training would put the teachers in the category of "special function officer," much like a school district security officer, a hospital security officer, a constable or a port of entry agent.


Utah state law already allows people with concealed-weapons permits to carry guns on school grounds. School districts across the state have different policies about where those guns can be kept, banning them from being stored in places like desks or coat closets.

More here: http://deseretnews.com/dn/print/1,1442,650213106,00.html

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