Instructing school kids to fight back against gunmen


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DKSuddeth
October 13, 2006, 04:07 PM
wow, just wow.

Texas school instructs kids to fight back with everything they've got. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061013/ap_on_re_us/defending_the_classroom;_ylt=AqjFcvdtBleV4yRRRUwAxcxvzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-)

BURLESON, Texas - Youngsters in a suburban Fort Worth school district are being taught not to sit there like good boys and girls with their hands folded if a gunman invades the classroom, but to rush him and hit him with everything they got — books, pencils, legs and arms.

"Getting under desks and praying for rescue from professionals is not a recipe for success," said Robin Browne, a major in the British Army reserve and an instructor for Response Options, the company providing the training to the Burleson schools.

That kind of fight-back advice is all but unheard of among schools, and some fear it will get children killed.

But school officials in Burleson said they are drawing on the lessons learned from a string of disasters such as Columbine in 1999 and the Amish schoolhouse attack in Pennsylvania last week.

The school system in this working-class suburb of about 26,000 is believed to be the first in the nation to train all its teachers and students to fight back, Browne said.

At Burleson — which has 10 schools and about 8,500 students — the training covers various emergencies, such as tornadoes, fires and situations where first aid is required. Among the lessons: Use a belt as a sling for broken bones, and shoelaces make good tourniquets.

Students are also instructed not to comply with a gunman's orders, and to take him down.

Browne recommends students and teachers "react immediately to the sight of a gun by picking up anything and everything and throwing it at the head and body of the attacker and making as much noise as possible. Go toward him as fast as we can and bring them down."

Response Options trains students and teachers to "lock onto the attacker's limbs and use their body weight," Browne said. Everyday classroom objects, such as paperbacks and pencils, can become weapons.

"We show them they can win," he said. "The fact that someone walks into a classroom with a gun does not make them a god. Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun."

The fight-back training parallels the change in thinking that has occurred since Sept. 11, when United Flight 93 made it clear that the usual advice during a hijacking — Don't try to be a hero, and no one will get hurt — no longer holds. Flight attendants and passengers are now encouraged to rush the cockpit.

Similarly, women and youngsters are often told by safety experts to kick, scream and claw they way out during a rape attempt or a child-snatching.

In 1998 in Oregon, a 17-year-old high school wrestling star with a bullet in his chest stopped a rampage by tackling a teenager who had opened fire in the cafeteria. The gunman killed two students, as well as his parents, and 22 other were wounded.

Hilda Quiroz of the National School Safety Center, a nonprofit advocacy group in California, said she knows of no other school system in the country that is offering fight-back training, and found the strategy at Burleson troubling.

"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said. "How much common sense will a student have in a time of panic?"

Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

"You're telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields," he said. "If my school was teaching that, I'd be upset, frankly."

Some students said they appreciate the training.

"It's harder to hit a moving target than a target that is standing still," said 14-year-old Jessica Justice, who received the training over the summer during freshman orientation at Burleson High.

William Lassiter, manager of the North Carolina-based Center for Prevention of School Violence, said past attacks indicate that fighting back, at least by teachers and staff, has its merits.

"At Columbine, teachers told students to get down and get on the floors, and gunmen went around and shot people on the floors," Lassiter said. "I know this sounds chaotic and I know it doesn't sound like a great solution, but it's better than leaving them there to get shot."

Lassiter questioned, however, whether students should be included in the fight-back training: "That's going to scare the you-know-what out of them."

Most of the freshman class at Burleson's high school underwent instruction during orientation, and eventually all Burleson students will receive some training, even the elementary school children.

"We want them to know if Miss Valley says to run out of the room screaming, that is exactly what they need to do," said Jeanie Gilbert, district director of emergency management. She said students and teachers should have "a fighting chance in every situation."

"It's terribly sad that when I get up in the morning that I have to wonder what may happen today either in our area or in the nation," Gilbert said. "Something that happens in Pennsylvania has that ripple effect across the country."

Burleson High Principal Paul Cash said he has received no complaints from parents about the training. Stacy Vaughn, the president of the Parent-Teacher Organization at Norwood Elementary in Burleson, supports the program.

"I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist," Vaughn said.

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dasmi
October 13, 2006, 04:09 PM
Good.
Let's stop teaching kids to be sheep. Sheep who get shot while cowering on the floor of their classroom.

ArmedBear
October 13, 2006, 04:10 PM
"I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist," Vaughn said.

You know, the only argument I've really heard against arming teachers, except that many teachers can't be trusted with a gun, is that it makes schools into armed camps and instills mortal fear into little kids.

I don't agree with the argument. I went to a libertarian private school, and the principal was UDT alumni; to this day, I'm pretty sure he was armed. Never bothered me any.

Be that as it may, though, if you're going to get kids all riled up about being gunned down in the classroom, doesn't it make them feel BETTER if they know the teacher has a gun?

Abby
October 13, 2006, 04:42 PM
I love this idea. We need to start rebuilding a culture of self-sufficiency. Of course there are armed professionals who are best suited to deal with the shooter-in-a-school scenario. But in the absence of these folks, or before they show up, laying down on the floor and waiting to die is NOT the proper response.

If I were living in mountain lion country, at some point I'd explain that when attacked by a mountain lion, one had better FIGHT BACK. Passive acceptance of life-threatening violence from any source is not a good way to live.

Rev. DeadCorpse
October 13, 2006, 04:47 PM
Good. Pacifism will get you killed. If not by one group, then by another.

Henry Bowman
October 13, 2006, 04:49 PM
It is so :D that the discussion is finally turned to a sensible response. May those who gave their lives as a result of victimization policies not have been in vain.

jerkyman45
October 13, 2006, 04:55 PM
I like it, I'm a senior in high school and after the recent events our school put in place some security measures, but none are any good. Our "Lockdowns" are where every teacher turns off the light in the class, locks the door, and instructs everyone to hide in the corner. A simple flimsy indoor lock will not stop a gunman intent on doing us harm, and once he is in the classroom everyone is in a group to make his day of killing a little easier on him. In some areas even if you lock the door, you're still in line of sight of the hallway, and glass does not stop bullets. I wish we had a better plan, and this seems a lot smarter to me.

dasmi
October 13, 2006, 04:56 PM
So basically they put you in a tighter, easier to shoot group. How nice.

bigun15
October 13, 2006, 04:59 PM
I like it too. If someone busts into my English class, I don't want everyone running to the far corner of the room hoping someone else will get shot instead of themselves. Yeah some kids will probably die if they all rush. Some kids will die if they don't. The question isn't is someone going to die, it's how many.

TallPine
October 13, 2006, 05:04 PM
Interesting to see that what I suggested in another thread is actually being implemented somewhere ;)


There's a big problem with this plan, though ... if you start letting kids think that they can actually defend and take care of themselves, imagine what kind of adults they might grow up to be...?;)

Imagine voters who think individuals have a right of self defense, and think that the almight government cannot take care of all their needs cradle to grave ....:eek: :p

The Deer Hunter
October 13, 2006, 05:05 PM
Howcome it takes this long for them to figure out?
Fighting back always made more sense to me.

jak
October 13, 2006, 05:08 PM
jerkyman45: Yup, basically thats the plan at my school too. Cower in the corner and be quiet. I've always thought that maybe barricading the doors or something might help, or at least covering the windows so they can't see in the door. I figure that even if a shooter gets through the desks piled against the door, he might be preoccupied enough to bonk him with something, or ambush him.

I like this new plan, I hope it spreads here to Maryland. Chances are rather slim, though.

BTW, did you know that in the emergency procedures booklet they give to teachers, it has a plan on what to do if an airplane crashes into or near the school? Their plan for if the school gets hit is for students to stay in their seats and await further instruction:banghead:

Lonestar
October 13, 2006, 05:14 PM
In a Highschool this would work well. Most students that age are approaching their peak in physical performance. Teens have less fear of death and dying, and some heavy hormones are racing thru their bodies. Most teens have already seen or been in fistfights, they know what happen with the Amish School shooting and what happened on Flight 93, so they understand what needs to be done.

Middle school and lower on the other hand...the concept is stupid and will get a lot of kids killed. Even athletic kids who have not reached puberity are weaker than most adults. You can't expect a bunch of 1st, 2nd or 3rd graders to attack an armed man, when half of them are still afraid of the boogyman. Young kids, even in a large group will have a tough time trying to kill an unarmed adult. Even determined kids will freeze up when they see their classmate get killed. They have no concept of killing, death and dying at that age. Just playing around, I can fend off 2 or 3 of my youngsters unarmed. What little kids do well is run. I told my 8yr old after the Amish thing that if a guy with a gun get into your classroom, JUST RUN AWAY and get outside.

orangelo
October 13, 2006, 05:17 PM
It's better than doing nothing as the recent school shootings and the terrorist attack at Beslan proved.

There is no such thing as total security. But if you can make yourself or your property such a hassle to victimize that the perp goes looking elsewhere for an easier target you've won. That's what security and threat management is all about.

qlajlu
October 13, 2006, 05:25 PM
Perhaps the tide is changing, the pendulum is starting in the other direction.

See THR Gun class for Utah teachers (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=227643) also.

romma
October 13, 2006, 05:57 PM
This could be a nice formula for other school districts if it works well. I say if it does,,, McDonaldize it!

kludge
October 13, 2006, 06:29 PM
Five or six seventh-grade kids and a 95-pound art teacher can basically challenge, bring down and immobilize a 200-pound man with a gun.

I'll take that bet. Twenty maybe, but a bunch of them are going to get hurt real bad. "Immobilize" would still be very difficult.

A gang of high-schoolers would be a different story, but the challengers would have to be dead set on the goal in mind and willing to use an extreme level of force.

Good premise though, I teach my little kids (five of them 9yrs to 0yrs) as soon as they can understand to fight, kick, hit, scream, and bite. When faced with a real situation, who knows how they will react.

TallPine
October 13, 2006, 09:01 PM
What always amazes me are the mass shootings where the gunman runs out of ammo, and stops and reloads while nobody does anything :rolleyes:


I dunno, maybe they could just arm the grade schoolers with cans of silly string and they could spray it all over the bad guy's face so he can't see :D

longeyes
October 13, 2006, 09:20 PM
Hmmm. Let's see, from one liberal fantasy--schools are safe places where no one can get hurt--to another--you don't need adults with weapons to combat evildoers. No, instead of armed and trained teachers and security personnel let's have little kids rush the big bad psycho and disarm him. Can it be done? Anything's possible, but I tend to think that the brave kids just might be deterred after two or three of the bravest are laid low by the first shots and the rest have the bejesus scared out of them by the report alone.

SaintofKillers
October 13, 2006, 10:07 PM
Doing something is better than doing what they are at this point. Even for small children.

What most of these psychos want is to feel in control of the situation. A room full of screaming, running 10 year olds isnt exactly under control.

Cowering in the corner is being under control.

Geronimo45
October 13, 2006, 10:09 PM
Kids are going to get shot anyway, in a case like this. At least they'll know what to do - if they decide to do it.

Standing Wolf
October 13, 2006, 10:19 PM
"I feel like our kids should be armed with the information that these types of possibilities exist," Vaughn said.

Oh, how terrible! Armed children!

Pilgrim
October 13, 2006, 10:31 PM
In 1974 or 1975 at the bank on the Subic Bay Naval Station, Republic of Philippines, a gunman held the place up and ended up taking hostages when the bank was surrounded by the Provost Marshal's troops. Everything was going fairly well. The robber was making demands for safe passage, etc., from the base. Then, he made a fatal mistake. He said if his demands weren't met, he was going to kill a pregnant woman.

The rest of the hostages thought he was going too far. They rushed him, disarmed him, and beat him to death.

Pilgrim

qlajlu
October 13, 2006, 10:34 PM
Oh, how terrible! Armed children!
I hope I misunderstand the meaning behind this statement. Other than that, this statement is just wrong! Jokingly or otherwise. :fire:

Kids growing up in my father's time took firearms to school hoping to catch (read, "kill") a cottontail or sage grouse on the way home. Give kids some credit for being responsible. Of course that comes from the type of household where the child grows up, but this thread is not about that.

gezzer
October 13, 2006, 10:38 PM
About time. whenever you do not fight back you have lost.

cosine
October 13, 2006, 10:43 PM
I hope I misunderstand the meaning behind this statement. Other than that, this statement is just wrong! Jokingly or otherwise.
All you need to remember is that Standing Wolf is the master of satirical soundbites. ;) :cool:

Ohen Cepel
October 13, 2006, 10:44 PM
I think it's pretty much a really sorry answer to a horrible question. 5th graders throwing pencils at a certified psychol is not going to have much effect in my opinion.

Is it better than doing nothing or hiding under a desk? Yes, but it's still a poor solution. Also, the perps will just adjust their plans to reduce this possibility since it's all over the news now.

I think it's a good idea to teach them to not be sheep. However, I really think that allowing teachers to be armed is 1000 times more effective than this.

There are many retired military, police, and well trained civilians that move into teaching as a second career. I think allowing them to right to defend themselves and the children is the way to go.

crunker
October 14, 2006, 01:05 AM
Good good!

DerringerUser
October 14, 2006, 01:35 AM
I think teachers should be allowed to CCW, if not carry an AIR taser. Maybe not kids, but teachers and other officials most defonitaly. An AIR taser can immobilize the attacker almost as well as a gun at close range, and it satisfies all of those gun grabbing liberals, because they're not using guns, but non-lethal weapons.

R.Edd
October 14, 2006, 11:57 AM
Teaching the kids to fight back and arming the teachers are great ideas.

Way back when I was in high school, every door was open at all times. You could get in through the gym, cafateria, front door, band door... you name it. Is it the same case now? I would think the first thing to do would be to secure the entry points.

beaucoup ammo
October 14, 2006, 01:49 PM
It boils down to fighting to save your life. With a mandatory student body assembly..featuring someone from CACI or BlackWater (people who won't mince words or be "PC") students can be taught to "swarm", appreciate the value of numbers against 1 or 2 people and get a crash course in self- confidence.

I've often wondered how 3 or 4 zealots with box cutters got away with what they did on 9/11. 20 able bodied men and women could have torn them apart.

Hindsight is great and I wasn't there, but it seems immediate mass response would be one answer.

It's great this is being addressed..here in Texas at that!

telomerase
October 14, 2006, 01:54 PM
So it's OK to plan for suicide attacks against armed men, but it's not OK for teachers to carry any weapons? Or for that matter, students... why shouldn't students have pepper spray?

Stauble
October 14, 2006, 03:45 PM
So basically they put you in a tighter, easier to shoot group. How nice

yep. they tell you to line up against a wall, stick your head between your knees and kiss your butt good bye. well the last part is implied anyways.

if it wasnt for thier immigration problems i swear id move to Texas right now.
if they get open carry before florida does ill move there anyways

Grey54956
October 14, 2006, 04:09 PM
Some kids might get hurt or killed fighting back, but that could and probably will happen if they don't. Remember, ten to twenty feet of distance can be closed within 2 seconds. A gunman may get a 1-3 shots off in that time before the mob gets him. Kids and teachers won't all be rushing from one direction either, most likely attacking from at least two directions.

I fully agree with the concept being taught. It is time to teach young Americans that they don't have to be victims or sheep.

Remember, how we live and how we die are the two most important decisions we ever have to make. Better to die fighting than kneeling on the ground begging for mercy.

Take some with you...

RioShooter
October 14, 2006, 04:14 PM
The AP story made the front page of The Brownsville Herald.

javacodeman
October 14, 2006, 05:59 PM
"If kids are saved, then this is the most wonderful thing in the world. If kids are killed, people are going to wonder who's to blame," she said.


Ah.?.?.?.?.?.I would blame the gunman who pulled the trigger. But isn't that what he went there to do in the first place?:banghead: :banghead:

Lucky
April 17, 2007, 02:00 PM
Bump.

Deavis
April 17, 2007, 02:10 PM
Good luck teaching people like this

"Even if they weren't, it wouldn't make it any less sad. You don't expect this to happen at your school. We're just kids," she said, as she watched members of the university's military corps drill before class.

Old enbough to vote, drive, drink, buy a weapon, and die for your country but still a kid? 20 something-odd years old and still wanting someone else to make the world safe. You can't teach a sheep bleeting that loudly.

Lupinus
April 17, 2007, 02:13 PM
good. one or two might die, but they all wont

bill larry
April 17, 2007, 02:19 PM
How bout some teachers that just say F-it, and carry anyway?

My dad taught middle school in San Antonio, Texas for thirty years before retiring and ALWAYS carried a gun on him (at school), even back when it was completely illegal in Texas to CC.

I for one have always been of the opinion that its better to ask forgiveness than permission. People should do what they gotta do to feel safe and stay alive.

longeyes
April 17, 2007, 02:37 PM
I hear the new wisdom is to tell kids to "play dead." (This is the follow-on to "don't hit.")

Maybe that will be the political anthem for the New America that is being carefully crafted by the Left brick by brick.

So here come the candlelight vigils? It's all about grief control, not self-defense. The answer to a crazed gunman is a sane gunman.

obxned
April 17, 2007, 02:47 PM
God bless Texas!

rhino210
April 17, 2007, 03:15 PM
This Training was cancelled::fire:
Link http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=20428

Texas Schools’ ‘Fight-Back Training’ Is Canceled After Media Slams

Written By: Mary Susan Littlepage
Published In: School Reform News
Publication Date: January 1, 2007
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

After school-invasion murders gripped national headlines, a school district near Dallas hired a group to teach students to fight back if they encounter a gunman. But they decided to drop the “fight-back training” segment in late October after receiving negative coverage by the national media.

Burleson Independent School District (BISD) hired Response Options, a Dallas-based company, to provide general school safety training, which included fight-back training. The latter included encouraging students to throw objects at armed intruders, knock them off balance, make as much noise as possible, lock onto an intruder’s limbs, and try to take intruders down.

Teachers, 650 freshmen, and some elementary school students in the 8,500-student district received the training.

But after a national media buzz, on October 20 the district sent students’ parents a letter stating “BISD does not, nor will we support teaching our students to attack an intruder.”

The letter, which said fight-back training “is not adopted by the district” and “BISD is pro-active in their efforts to make our schools as safe as possible,” was signed by Superintendent Mark Jackson; Richard Crummel, director of learning supports and public relations; and 10 of 11 principals in the BISD.

‘Organized Chaos’

Crummel did not return calls seeking comment, but Steve Kaufer, senior consultant for Inter/Action Associates, a California-based company that assesses and develops security programs for school districts, said fight-back training “was probably a good idea for faculty and staff, but not necessarily for students.” Kaufer said “the student training might be good” but he didn’t know all of the particulars of the fight-back training performed in Burleson.

“You don’t know [students’] level of maturity,” Kaufer said. “The area where students can be effective is providing information to the administration and teachers on campus.”

The training BISD proposed and originally accepted would have given all students from kindergarten through 12th grade safety training, including the fight-back training for those in 7th grade and above.

The Response Options Web site asks, “What do you do when the lockdown fails, and you are staring into the barrel of a gun waiting for the trigger to be pulled?” The group, which teaches that pro-active planning and preparation are the key to surviving a crisis, tells people not to sit and wait for rescue teams nor try to understand the attackers’ motives, but to take quick action and try to “get them off balance through the application of ‘organized chaos.’”

Tense Relationship

While BISD was teaching fight-back training to its incoming freshmen--for just one day in August--safety analysts believed it to be the only school district nationwide to do so.

Although the Associated Press quoted Crummel in an October 14 story as saying BISD doesn’t support fight-back training and that he wasn’t aware of it when hiring the group, Response Options spokesperson Robin Browne said that wasn’t true.

“The Burleson ISD both approved and supported the training we had been providing teachers since late 2004,” Browne said. “They had also approved, on September 26, 2006, advanced training for teachers and basic training for all 8,500 students [including the fight-back component] to start November 1.”

Browne said BISD staffers said they were keeping all aspects of safety training, except the fight-back segment. The administration, he said, still advocates throwing items and running away from armed intruders--just not physically engaging them.

“As very few classrooms have more than one entry/exit, [running away] is clearly ineffective and potentially fatal,” Browne said. “As a result of this posture, we have withdrawn from our agreement to provide further training, and Burleson ISD will be instructed that there will be legal ramifications, should they attempt to teach any of our syllabus independently.”

Good Publicity

Meanwhile, the media buzz surrounding BISD’s fight-back training has been good for business at Response Options.

“In the last month, more than 100 school districts, together with private schools, colleges, churches, hospitals, and law enforcement agencies, have requested further information or meetings,” Browne said in late October. “In the last week, we have met with officials representing more than 70 school districts in Texas alone.”

Browne said he has gotten mostly positive feedback about the training program from people in Burleson and around the country.

“Many self-styled ‘experts’ have been critical, but none has accepted our offer to provide them with information or training so they can talk from a position other than complete ignorance,” Browne said. Also, Browne said none of the critics he’s heard from so far has come up with any alternatives better than “run away, or hide and pray.”

Although Browne acknowledged it may be “unpleasant” for parents to think about their children fighting back against a school intruder, he said, “The only alternative is to ‘comply and die.’”

Mary Susan Littlepage (mslp@mylittlepages.com) is a freelance writer in Chicago.

For more information ...

Response Options, http://www.responseoptions.com/

“Burleson school district clarifies its defense policy,” by Martha Deller, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, October 25, 2006, http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15843537.htm

“Burleson students are taught to fight back against gunmen,” Associated Press, October 14, 2006, http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/tarrant/stories/DN-burleson_14wes.ART0.North.Edition1.3e1572a.html

“Students are taught to fight intruders,” Fort Worth Star-Telegram, October 14, 2006, http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/15759624.htm

Boats
April 17, 2007, 03:17 PM
Terry Grisham, spokesman for the Tarrant County Sheriff's Department, said he, too, had concerns, though he had not seen details of the program.

"You're telling kids to do what a tactical officer is trained to do, and they have a lot of guns and ballistic shields," he said. "If my school was teaching that, I'd be upset, frankly."

Man, does the government hate it when one is not totally dependent upon them or what?

If I am not mistaken, the Sheriffs are not legally bound to risk life and limb to save anyone from criminal harm as they are the reactive mop-up crew, especially in shooting sprees.

Schools teaching students livestock style compliance in the face of violence frankly upset me.

SWMAN
April 17, 2007, 03:37 PM
You know, the only argument I've really heard against arming teachers, except that many teachers can't be trusted with a gun...

Why is it that society will take a police recruits, run backgrounds checks on them, train them with firearms and send them forth to protect society, while the idea of an armed citizen with a police background check and training is deemed not adequate by many?:confused:

Reddbecca
April 17, 2007, 04:29 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/hasanbeensober/Gun%20ads/Image174.jpg

Idaho
April 17, 2007, 05:31 PM
Yeah, good thing they cancelled that training - because this policy works so much better:

From Tech's Environmental Health and Safety Services website:

What to Do When Violence Occurs

* Try to stay calm. Raising your own voice may increase the anxiety of a potentially violent person.
* Speak slowly, softly, and clearly to reduce the momentum of the situation.
* Listen empathetically by really paying attention to what the person is saying. Let the person know that you will help them within your ability to do so or you will send for additional help.
* Do not agree using distorted statements or attempt to argue.
* Avoid defensive statements. This is not the time to place blame on the enraged person.
* Ask the belligerent person to leave the area and come back when they feel calmer.
* Ask questions to help regain control of the conversation.
* Ask uninvolved parties to leave the area if this can be done safely.
* Use the prearranged code word to alert your coworker(s) to call the Campus Police.
* Never challenge, try to bargain, or make promises you cannot keep.
* Describe the consequences of any violent behavior.
* Avoid challenging body language such as placing your hands on your hips, moving toward the person, or staring directly at them. If seated, remain in your chair and do not turn your back on the individual.
* Do not physically touch an outraged person, or try to force them to leave.
* Move away from any object, such as scissors or heavy objects that could be used as a weapon.
* Calmly ask the person to place any weapons in a neutral location while you continue to talk to them.
* Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer.

This event is sickening and tragic, but when will people learn that the only viable response to irrational violence is overwhelming force? Not only was the shooter assured a "gun-free victim zone" he also could anticipate that he continued response would merely be "there, there, please put the gun down." Makes me want to puke.

Lucky
April 17, 2007, 06:10 PM
Thanks Rhino, that's bad news, but with a silver lining at the end. All the media hit-pieces just proved that no publicity is bad publicity.

Phyphor
April 17, 2007, 06:19 PM
...they couldn't include a baton next to the fire extinguisher for such emergencies... :banghead:

scout26
April 17, 2007, 11:06 PM
Hmmmm, perusing some of the advice/training offer to potential victims.

1) Young children (3-9 year olds) are taught to scream, cry, run, bite, kick, etc. when someone attempts to abduct them.

2) Women are told to scream, gouge, bite, scratch, use car keys, etc. to defend themselves from rapists.

3) Aircraft passengers are "encouraged" to help the crew fight potential hi-jackers/terrorists (see: Flight 93 and Richard Reid).

4) Evil person enters classroom and students are taught to behave like they just got off the train at Auschwitz. :fire:


Not my kids. Had a long talk with both of them (13 and 6 years old) tonight. Someone bad comes in, you fight back, instantly, I don't care what the school says. You start throwing things at the bad person and I bet others in you class will follow and throw things also. Then charge, your classmates, maybe not all but some, will follow. You have nothing to lose at that point. The bad person has already made the decision that someone is going to get hurt. Do everything you can to make it him that gets hurt: punch, kick, bite, pull hair, etc. and don't stop until he can no longer resist/move.

Imagine trying to shoot when 15-30+ kids (pick any age) are throwing books, pencils, backpacks, and everything else they can get their hands on at you. Then they rush you, even if they are, say 5 year olds, you may be able to fend off the first few but after they start biting all bets are off.

Plus how hard would it be to teach even very young ones ??? "If someone hurts the teacher or the teacher says "Attack" (or some other word), everyone go bite, kick, hit the "bad person".

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