GAH! "Teflon coated bullets are armor-piercing!"


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Beren
October 14, 2006, 12:37 PM
Oh boy. I've written the author concerning the urban legend, but thought you'd find this interesting:

http://post-gazette.com/pg/06287/729938-53.stm

"A scuffle ensued, he said, and guards subdued the students and took a loaded handgun from each of them. One was a .380-caliber pistol, and the other was a .38-caliber snub-nosed revolver with Teflon bullets. Teflon-coated bullets are armor-piercing."

:banghead:

The worst part is, it's probably the school police who spread the myth to the reporter.

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bakert
October 14, 2006, 12:52 PM
Beren, I've argued with a number of people about this. Mostly non gun owners or antis but some who should know better. The myth about teflon bullets persists with all kinds of claims of how lethal they are especially with so called journalists.

Geronimo45
October 14, 2006, 01:04 PM
They are? So the teflon wrapped around the copper water pipes makes them... armor piercing plumbing?

misterpugsly
October 14, 2006, 02:45 PM
I mailed Joe a letter about this, too, since I subscribe to the Post-Gazette. Thanks to Medula for providing a good model.

Dear Sir,

I want to point out what I believe is an error in the recent article on the young men caught with weapons at Peabody High School. While I certainly agree that guns at schools are alarming, I can't imagine that these two young men actually had "teflon-coated" bullets for "armor-piercing." Teflon-coated ammo has not been made in a long time, was not available to the general public, and was just a marketing gimmick when it was made; any deer rifle would defeat body armor far better than a plastic-coated handgun bullet. Misconceptions such as the existence of magical "cop-killer" bullets only inflame, and do not inform, the already volatile debate on guns.

Pilgrim
October 14, 2006, 03:40 PM
The myth about teflon bullets persists with all kinds of claims of how lethal they are especially with so called journalists.
But, but, but,....Robert De Niro in "Ronin" was shot with a teflon coated bullet.

hammer4nc
October 14, 2006, 04:37 PM
Interesting...

North Carolina specifically prohibits teflon-coated bullets.
Pursuant to North Carolina General Statute 14-34.3 it is unlawful for any person
to import, manufacture, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to
purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any Teflon-coated bullet.

It would be amusing to learn the legislative history of this statute.:confused:

Molon Labe
October 14, 2006, 04:49 PM
As Paul Harvey says, "And now you know... the rest of the story."

Read on..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_coated_bullet

Don Gwinn
October 14, 2006, 05:58 PM
Could the kid have had Nyclads?

expvideo
October 14, 2006, 06:25 PM
I'm no expert on the subject (not even by a long shot), but I talked to a friend of a friend about 2 years ago (just an average street thug) who carried a revolver with what he claimed were teflon coated bullets (they had a blueish coating). Was he full of it, or were they actually teflon coated bullets? If so, he was deffinately not a LEO, and they were in new condition, not 40 years old.

Not trying to instigate, just purely interested in the subject.

tenbase
October 14, 2006, 06:28 PM
did they look like this?

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9503/image018wl2.jpg

nyclads

dragongoddess
October 14, 2006, 06:30 PM
Wow. I have armor piercing skillets. Better hide them before the cops find out.

expvideo
October 14, 2006, 06:56 PM
They looked like that, but I'm pretty sure they weren't hollowpoints, if memory serves me. They did have a similar blue color to that though.

River Wraith
October 14, 2006, 06:57 PM
OH NO! Where's my chain mail? D'oh, that's made of armor!

benewton
October 14, 2006, 07:13 PM
7.62x25.

If it works, why even consider exotics?

:)

beerslurpy
October 14, 2006, 07:38 PM
So if I dipped my fists in teflon, I could punch through tank armor? Raaaargh! Hulk smash!

steveno
October 14, 2006, 08:43 PM
the KTW ammo that I have seen was kind of a faded green color if my memory is correct

SDC
October 14, 2006, 10:18 PM
Here's a close-up shot of the two main styles of KTW you see (whole and sectioned); the original style used a steel core in a gilding metal base cup (where neither the steel nor the Teflon ever engaged the rifling), and the later style made out of machined bronze.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4449

expvideo
October 14, 2006, 10:37 PM
So tenbase, what were those blue rounds?

thexrayboy
October 14, 2006, 10:42 PM
The bluish colored rounds in tenbase's post are nyclads. Nothing really exotic.

Axman
October 15, 2006, 01:00 AM
So, if I get out a roll of teflon thread tape, I could wrap my bullets with it and shoot through stuff? COOOOLLLL!:cool:

Waitone
October 15, 2006, 01:35 AM
As a courtesy to "journalists" everywhere, every note correcting errors in reportage should be accompanied by an offer to serve as an unnamed expert to hopefully and helpfully avoid further errors of fact . . . . . assuming of course the reporter and editor are worried about errors of fact WRT firearms.

RioShooter
October 15, 2006, 02:11 AM
If Teflon coated bullets really aren't armor piercing, how did one get through Robert De Niro's vest in Ronin?:evil:

Crosshair
October 15, 2006, 02:52 AM
If I could coat my Colon in Teflon I could kill people with my poo.:neener:

ribbonstone
October 15, 2006, 03:12 AM
Even KTW whent through some design changes. Were some rounds made form tungsten (pertty high tech back then) with a copper driving band...were some made of hardened steel, and some of ber.-copper. The teflon was kind of an add-on, and attempt to lubricate the sub-daimeter solid bulleet..so far as I know, it has nothing to do with it's penetration.

Nyclads also came in solid form...at least some 158gr. SWC solids were loaded by S&W...later Federal took off the Nyclad idea. Early S&W ammo used a black/dark blue nylon, later S&W ammo used that lighter blue...as did Federal once they took over production.

But it ain't to increase penetration...it's to act sort-of like a jacket without the expanision resistance of a jacket.

Most current ballistic vests are woven...if you've a hard point small enough to get in between the weave (the ice-pick effect) the bullet will pass though. As most prison gurads know, a typical "shank" can be driven through a vest if it's pointed and hard enough not to deform. For larger bullets, it's not the total energy, but the energy per surface area that seems to do the trick.

And why would you want ot shoot through a vest? (or is this like the "chicken crossing the road" joak?).

strambo
October 15, 2006, 04:16 AM
In Oregon there is a law specifically outlawing this urban myth...pretty amusing read. I don't have an ORS handy, but it defines "armor piercing ammo" as something like "any handgun ammunition designed to pierce a bullet proof vest by means of teflon, or similar coating." So, purpose designed AP ammo, rifle or pistol is legal as long as there is no coating on it...mythical ammo is illegal. Freaking brilliant.:rolleyes: Just making the streets safe for police to go home after their shift. Should outlaw alligators in the sewer too...might kill someone.:uhoh:

CraigJS
October 15, 2006, 11:48 AM
And it only took them a little over 60 seconds to stop the intruders from "other schools".. A lot of damage can be done in a bit over 60 seconds!!
And they are SO proud. The "intruders" shouldn't have been able to get in at all!

Be safe. (It's getting tougher now days!)

Axman
October 16, 2006, 01:47 AM
You can also increase the velocity of the bullet by spraying them with "Pam" or similar non-stick cooking spray. Higher velocity=armor piercing! :rolleyes:

dc0120
October 16, 2006, 10:49 AM
well that also means that you could wear Gore-Tex clothing and become an armour piercing human.

LAR-15
October 16, 2006, 12:47 PM
Where can I buy spray on Teflon?

:neener:

Carl N. Brown
October 16, 2006, 01:58 PM
they seem to have quoted the original designers,
that the teflon was used for FRICTION so the
bullets would not richochet off windshields or
car doors at an angle but penetrate instead; and,
in tests, the teflon actually REDUCED penetration
in Kevlar by offering more friction than a similar
weight bullet.

Notice in the sectioned examples, the teflon
coating does not extend to the copper
"driving band" that contacts the barrel.

---------------------------------------------
to repeat a previous post:

A KTW penetrator core in a wrapped paper jacket,
a la Quiggly Down Under, would still be armor
piercing without teflon.

MD_Willington
October 16, 2006, 02:52 PM
A bit of tri-flow (http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Superior_Aerosol/superior_aerosol.html) on a mag follower, a bit of tetra oil (http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/Tetra/oil.htm) on a patch, ! holy smokes !, my S&W 5906 can now stop a panzer tank :neener:

Dravur
October 16, 2006, 02:57 PM
According to the Dems, my 5.7x28 ammo can be used to stop tanks, whack Superman and give Rosie Odonnell an Atomic Wedgie! As far as I know, the AP 5.7 ammo is restricted.

dragongoddess
October 16, 2006, 02:57 PM
and if that doesn't stop those panzar's I'll bring out the teflon coated skillets for some heavy action.

Axman
October 16, 2006, 02:59 PM
well that also means that you could wear Gore-Tex clothing and become an armour piercing human cannonball!!! (added for effect)

I think I see where you're coming from!

MD_Willington
October 16, 2006, 03:37 PM
and if that doesn't stop those panzar's I'll bring out the teflon coated skillets for some heavy action.


Hey, how come my teflon coated aluminum skillet won't split bullets in half :confused:

I mean I shoot the old ones and the simple ball ammo I use punches right through that flimsy aluminum with the magical voodoo teflon sintered onto it...

It must be that teflon has dark magical powers of imbument for any metal it comes in contact with and the impact of the copper jacket onto the "devil teflon" creates a vortex of pure evil that allows the bullet to slip through matter.

:evil:

misterpugsly
October 16, 2006, 05:11 PM
Well, I got a reply from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette to my letter. Here it is:

Dear Mr. XXX:

Thank you for the information you provided on the Peabody story. I was the copy-editor on that story and inserted the sentence on teflon-coating, basend on an explanation in Wikepedia, which referred to it as "an armor-piercing round. We don't know what the young suspect was thinking in choosing that type of bullet, but apparently the police believed its presence was worth noting.

I certainly will keep the information you provided in mind should this issue come again. Sometimes you learn the most from readers willing to take a minute to write.

Thanks again,
Pat Peters

Personally, if I were in the newspaper business, I would be hesitant to use wikipedia for information. They are notoriously unreliable, since any fool can, and often does, edit their entries. Anyway, it was good of them to answer me.

Axman
October 16, 2006, 05:16 PM
I'm looking for a teflon coated hammer so I can break into all the bank vaults!

Personally, if I were in the newspaper business, I would be hesitant to use wikipedia for information. They are notoriously unreliable, since any fool can, and often does, edit their entries. Anyway, it was good of them to answer me.
In the words of the caveman on that commercial, "Do a little research!" Aw heck, do a lot of research.

carterbeauford
October 16, 2006, 09:05 PM
The worst part is, it's probably the school police who spread the myth to the reporter.

This one hit a little to close to home (55 miles north of you to be exact) so I too emailed the reporter. At any rate, I don't read the Post-Gazette.

If you spray .30-06 ball with WD-40 it will actually leave the earth's orbit and penetrate the moon.

Shweboner
October 16, 2006, 10:04 PM
Well, I got a reply from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette to my letter.

I got just about the exact same response

MD_Willington
October 17, 2006, 12:43 PM
If you spray .30-06 ball with WD-40 it will actually leave the earth's orbit and penetrate the moon.


Well if that's the case, we need to make a huge Garand rifle, that way we can reload huge 30-06 cartridges, the bullet can be an Apollo like projectile.

We can send 8 of those space craft back to the moon before the PING tells us the launcher is reader for the next 8 spacecraft.

:neener:

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