What gunstore/gunshow scams have you seen?


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firestar
May 16, 2003, 12:33 AM
I know there are a lot of scams and a lot of crooks in the gun world so what are some scams that have Pi$$ed you off?

Here are some I have seen recently:

1: Putting cheap ammo in premium ammo boxes and selling them. My dumb friend thought he was paying top dollar for Cor-Bon .40S&W ammo but when he got it home, they were not even hollow points!

2. Selling the cheap Springfield TRP as a "TRP Operater" and charging Operator prices.

3. Gun store "garenteeing to beat anyone's price" but when called on it they backed down. My brother was in the market for a Glock 36 and the dealer that I had been going through claimed he could sell for less than anyone else in town. I saw a new G-36 for $499 at a chain store and asked if he could beat it. He told me that I was mistaken and it couldn't be a G36 for that price as his cost on that gun was $550.:rolleyes: Some garentee.:rolleyes: What good is a garentee if they don't really stand behind it? I never stepped foot in that store again.

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SquirrelNuts
May 16, 2003, 12:50 AM
I had a preban non-drop free mag for a G19, but I bought a G17 instead. I tried to sell it to a local shop that deals with preban mags. The man told me that a non-drop free mag was only worth $25 to him because he could only sell it for a few dollars more than that. I was in there the other day and he wants $100 for a G17 preban NON-drop free mag...

So much for that mag costing around $40.

-SquirrelNuts

swingset
May 16, 2003, 12:50 AM
I have seen is a "troll" out front of a dealer's table that was stopping people asking about their rifles for sale, being an "expert" on them, then offering some stupid-low price within earshot of the table. Then his buddy, the "honest" dealer, says to them "how much did that guy offer you? Heck, that's way too low. I can give you $50 more than that right now!"

I saw this played out 2 times in the half hour I was standing near these guys waiting on a friend.

Tamara
May 16, 2003, 12:51 AM
I saw a new G-36 for $499 at a chain store and asked if he could beat it.

Hmmm... You sure that gun was new? :confused:

2. Selling the cheap Springfield TRP as a "TRP Operater" and charging Operator prices.

You'd think folks might notice the missing accessory rail... (However, I'm not sure I'd refer to the TRP, with its nearly $1,400 MSRP, as "cheap"... :eek: )

Slabside
May 16, 2003, 01:01 AM
Seeing an advertised "Customer Appreciation Sale" for the shop...special prices on "most items". Then getting there and finding the same prices as usual or even a little bit higher! More like bait and switch.

Caveat Emptor

SquirrelNuts
May 16, 2003, 01:08 AM
My mother used to work for a large chain in Chicago when she was in high school similar to K-mart. They would advertise a sale on their towels, mark them up 25 cents, and people would come in and buy them just because they said "sale."

Happens all over.

-SquirrelNuts

Mike Irwin
May 16, 2003, 01:10 AM
One I've seen a couple of times is dealers selling an S&W Model 12, a pretty common Airweight revolver, as a United States Air Force M13 Aircrewman.

Interesting thing is that these are clearly commercial guns. A couple I've seen have even had the steel cylinder.

All in all, worth $350 max.

But on these tables?

A misleading tag and price of $1,200 and up.

Kaylee
May 16, 2003, 01:13 AM
not a scam per se, but I once had a feller try to convince me to buy the synthetic handled woodsy knife he had in stock instead of the leather one I was looking for 'case "they stopped making those last year.." feh.


-K

twoblink
May 16, 2003, 02:49 AM
The store local to me use to advertise some rediculously low price for ammo, and when you walked in, they would be out, but they had more expensive ammo that was even better..

Of course, I caught them once, clearing out the ammo the night before the "sale"..:mad:

Giant
May 16, 2003, 04:38 AM
Many here, I'm sure have seen the "new never issued" M1 Garand at gun shows. Prices on these Garands can be five thousand dollars or more, they sport new stocks, new stock markings and new parkerizing. One can ask the seller if the Garand is really genuine new unissued, the reply usually goes something to the effect of; "sure does look like it could be one to me." Of course most know these Garands are rebuilt, with new stocks, but every now and then one will be sold to the unwary buyer who thinks he or she got the buy of the century -- What they really got was the scam of the century, one of many!

Giant

winwun
May 16, 2003, 07:19 AM
The seedy looking characters with a minimum of crappy pieces on their table and a large pickle jar or something there baited with a handful of crushed singles and a half pound of loose change and a sign to the effect of "Donate to the RKBA". Yeah, RIGHT ! ! !

Sisco
May 16, 2003, 07:58 AM
Saw a dealer at a gunshow taking blued single actions and coloring in the roll marks with a gold crayon.
"Gold inlay guns sell for more"

buzz_knox
May 16, 2003, 09:05 AM
Korean postban DR-200 equipped with an ACE folding stock and sold as preban.

Same guy was also selling an HK Tactical with LEO mags and was telling anyone who would ask "it's okay to own these as long as you are not a dealer." Yeah, right.

Then there was the guy who was selling postban M1As as preban at preban prices.

Bonker
May 16, 2003, 09:35 AM
Mostly I just see people selling worn out crap for almost new prices.

Last weekend a guy had the saddest looking old Python I've ever seen. It was soooo beat up and worn out! Price...1200 bucks! LOL


I have no problem with crap, as long as it's sold as crap. Last week I bought a very pretty sword for 15 bucks to display and the dealer was honest and told me not to hit anything with it because it's a hunk of crap. :)
He wasn't screwing anyone over and I would bet he made a lot more money than guys who are trying to scam people. The honest guys get a steady stream of customers all day while the scam artist makes maybe a sale per day.
Same profit for both but only one gets to keep his honor.


More words to live by:

"Honor is the only gift a man can give himself that no man can ever take away" - from the movie Rob Roy

Tamara
May 16, 2003, 09:49 AM
Korean postban DR-200 equipped with an ACE folding stock and sold as preban.

...and the fact that it's proudly been displayed on his table for three or four months running tells me he either has the luck of the Irish or is an ATF stool pigeon. Sucks, too, because he always has some tasty older 1911 customs in his cases. He gives me the creeping willies, though. :uhoh:

buzz_knox
May 16, 2003, 10:02 AM
I'm glad someone else thought he was a possible ATF plant.

Ian
May 16, 2003, 10:20 AM
I've seen an handful of pre/post ban hybrid ARs and FALs. The most blatant was a "preban Rock River Arms". Some were definitely sneaky dealers, some could have been individuals who simply didn't know they were breaking the law (or ATF stooges).

Poodleshooter
May 16, 2003, 01:53 PM
I saw a new G-36 for $499 at a chain store and asked if he could beat it.

I bought my Glock 30 for $489 new. Figure $10 increase for 2% inflation or so. They're cheap sans the Glock night sights. The dealer said that that was only $20 or so above his cost.

TarpleyG
May 16, 2003, 01:55 PM
I would imagine if the ATF were "baiting" buyers it would be considered entrapment or coercion. I seriously doubt they could get away with that.

GT

Captain Scarlet
May 16, 2003, 01:59 PM
I noticed some stores take the extra magazine that originally
came with the new gun and they sell it seperately at inflated
prices, My Chinese Tokarev was supposed to come with a spare
mag that is serial numbered to the pistol, but when I go to pick
it up it only comes with one magazine! they take it to gunshows
or sell it in the store seperately, even though you paid for it when
you buy the gun, it's like getting short changed! :(

TechBrute
May 16, 2003, 02:16 PM
It's not really a scam, but a local dealer has the worst prices I've even seen, and when you make the mistake of walking in the store, they rant non-stop about people on the internet cheating them and putting them out of business.

Glock 17 FS: $650.00
Used Glock 17 FS: $580.00
My favorite was the Pre-ban Colt SP1 that was beat to heck, probably 70% finish, that someone had stuck a cheap collapsable stock on (for the record, 20" barrels with collapsable stocks kind of defeat the purpose): $1900.00

Redlg155
May 16, 2003, 02:24 PM
I would imagine if the ATF were "baiting" buyers it would be considered entrapment or coercion. I seriously doubt they could get away with that.

Law Enforcement agencies use this tactic all the time for all manner of crimes. A good number of folks they catch are in "sting" operations.

Good Shooting
Red

4v50 Gary
May 16, 2003, 02:45 PM
reparkerized or reblued old parts being sold off as surplus or new.

Tamara
May 16, 2003, 08:50 PM
I would imagine if the ATF were "baiting" buyers it would be considered entrapment or coercion. I seriously doubt they could get away with that.

That's just what Randy Weaver said... :uhoh:

MountainPeak
May 16, 2003, 09:03 PM
Just last week a gun dealer in Santa Fe, NM had a Springfield XD with a crossed out tag of $549.00 on sale for $529.00. Don't get me wrong, I believe they can ask anything they want for a gun. I just thought acting like it was marked down when full MSRP is $489.00 is misleading. When I asked the guy, "isn't full MSRP $489.00" he glared at me and walked down to the other end of the counter without saying a word.

HABU
May 16, 2003, 09:21 PM
I would imagine if the ATF were "baiting" buyers it would be considered entrapment or coercion. I seriously doubt they could get away with that. :what: :what: Oh, OK, I get it! Good one! I thought you were serious for a minute.

Standing Wolf
May 16, 2003, 09:22 PM
My nearest local gun shop owner promised he could do a top quality action job on a Colt Python and deliver a two-pound single action pull.

He delivered a sloppy job and a three-pound pull. I'll never go back, and have encouraged several other shooters not to waste their time and money there.

P95Carry
May 16, 2003, 09:52 PM
What this all highlights is ..... there are a lot of ''sharks'' out there ......... and cynicism needs to be the order of the day ..... more's the pity.

''Buyer beware''.

Lone_Gunman
May 16, 2003, 09:57 PM
Yea, you can get ripped off at gunshows if you don't know what you are doing.

But if you are a smart guy, like me, you can find great deals.

Why, just last month I bought Wyatt Earp's 44 magnum Buntline for $250.

556A2
May 16, 2003, 10:13 PM
Actually I saw one today in fact. I went to one in Oakboro, NC which is a part of some antique show also. Now the ad said 5000 square feet of a gunshow with 5 bucks to get in. There were 6 dealer tables, and only 4 had guns. The most outrageous was the biggest table, some things that stick out was:

An Enfield Jungle Carbine: 350

A fairly used Colt Officer's Model: 650

A Mosin-Nagant M91/30 220


Now if that ain't scaming I don't know what is (and the acutal gunshow its self) :banghead: Luckily I got some AK74 mags for 8 bucks, and the only 4 boxes of 5.45x39mm at 5 bucks a box :fire:

DakotaSig
May 16, 2003, 11:03 PM
Does anyone else think that most of these scams are a direct result of our politicians meddling in the market?

If gun markets were free to reflect the buyer's choices, then most of this crap would disappear very shortly.

Just my .02

CZ-75
May 17, 2003, 12:01 AM
Does anyone else think that most of these scams are a direct result of our politicians meddling in the market?


Hear! Hear!

vmi93
May 17, 2003, 12:54 PM
If gun markets were free to reflect the buyer's choices, then most of this crap would disappear very shortly.

I doubt it. Look at the new and used car market. Look at the antiques market.

Of course if the govt got out of the gun-regulating business, the "big box" retailers would probably get into the act in a big way and start selling more common models at discount prices.

Imagine if Wal-Mart could sell all types of guns without any additional liability exposure or without worrying about ATF audits of their minimum wage employees.

Maybe some of the more "seasoned" forum participants could tell us waht the gun market was like before GCA '68?

Just some musings. :)

Matthew Courtney
May 17, 2003, 01:17 PM
After they shoot your best friend, your wife, and your dog, you might prevail in court if you can afford great lawyers.


I would imagine if the ATF were "baiting" buyers it would be considered entrapment or coercion. I seriously doubt they could get away with that.

Mannlicher
May 17, 2003, 03:12 PM
The public's greed usually provides all the victims a crooked dealer wants. It is at the gun show, when you really see who knows their stuff,and who is an armchair expert. If glib talkers fleece the sheep, I don't mind so much.

Ian
May 17, 2003, 04:59 PM
Gaah! I just got back from a show where I saw a sporterized long Lee! :cuss: A sporterized Lee-Enfield I've got no problem with...but who would muck up a long Lee??

444
May 17, 2003, 05:23 PM
I have seen a few scams, but never gave it a whole lot of thought before now.
One of the big ones is selling various mil-surp rifles as "sniper" versions and charging a premium price. There are places in the Shotgun news that do this every month. If you read the ad carefully, they never come right out and say that this rifle was used by the military of that country as a sniper rifle, but they make overatures in that direction. In other words they take a rack grade rifle, mount an incorrect scope and mount and try to sell it as a legitimate sniper rifle stopping just short of saying it is one.

Then there are the genuine FN AR15 parts.

vmi93
May 17, 2003, 06:49 PM
A certain nameless company advertises mint-condition German K98's for sale.

They actually deliver mint-condition Yugoslavian M48 rifles worth about 1/3 of this unnamed company's price.

The ads give just enough accurate info to put a knowledgeable person on notice, but are clearly designed to trap someone who does not know any better.

firestar
May 17, 2003, 06:56 PM
The $499 Glock 36 was new on sale at K's Merchandise, it like a Sevice Merchandise but they sell guns. They only sell new guns, no used.

I didn't know the models of the TRP thing at the time so here is what he was told he was getting for $999.00:
http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=8944557

ANd here is what they gave him with a light (all the while telling him straight to his face that it was the TRP Operator, he asked several times)


http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=8991276

Mike Irwin
May 17, 2003, 08:30 PM
"A sporterized Lee-Enfield I've got no problem with...but who would muck up a long Lee??"

Probably someone who brought it back after World War I.

Tragic, but not uncommon, unfortunately.

atek3
May 17, 2003, 09:20 PM
500 for an XD are they CRAZY.
www.eastcountyguns.com
400 out the door.

nemesis
May 17, 2003, 11:20 PM
There's an ornery cuss that sets up at all the gun shows in south Texas and does business as "Just Ammo".

I took a look at his offerings and saw that he had battle packs of Port 7.62 and figured I'd grab one. The packs were set out in two rows on the table and one row was priced higher than the other. I figured it must be old and new stock.

I picked up one from the cheap stack and he came over to take my money. He cranked some figures into his calculator and gave me a total price about 20% higher than the posted price of the ammo. My comment was "that seems to be a lot of tax". As should be expected with this guy, he blew up and started yelling about the price and was quoting the price from the other row of ammo. I showed him the price tags on the ammo that I was attempting to buy and on the other ammo from that stack.

He went nuts and started ripping all the price tags off. I just glared at him and walked away. I don't buy from people that low ball me. If you try to change the price on me, you lose the sale.

standingbear
May 18, 2003, 04:17 AM
people swapping out parts on a postban receiver and placing preban items on them.asking some ridiculous high prices.some there will do anything to make a dishonest buck.i bought a springfield m1a an got it home,much to my dismay,there was no firing pin.have bought a "new" milled bulgarian ak once too.didnt check trhe rifling.got it home and again,much to my dismay,the rifling was corroded in the last 3 inches in the barrel.couldnt hit the broadside of a barn.looked nice but barrel was junk.after taking it to a smith to see what could be done,i just sold it for half what i had in it.bent barrels on a shotgun,got 1 of those too. unknowingly bought a used beretta with a fracture in the frame.took it to a smith who pointed it out why the thing wasnt reliable and accurate.

jthuang
May 19, 2003, 05:20 PM
1. PA gunshow attendees will know the guy who has a sign next to his box of trigger locks, to the effect of "comply with federal law, lock up your guns". (No such law, to my knowledge)

2. PA gunshow dealer with Century Arms International FALs next to a sign "Made for the CIA". Maybe he's dyslexic, but I doubt it.

3. Guy on rec.guns pays $900 for a "pre-ban Glock 23" because the dealer told him that you can't use pre-ban mags in a handgun manufactured after Sept 13 1994.

:fire:

Justin

Art Eatman
May 19, 2003, 05:57 PM
It seems to me from watching the various black-plastic guys and milsurp guys at gunshows that they are less shooters and gun-people than they are sellers of "things". They'd maybeso be just as happy selling used cars or sheep, for all I know. And guys in camo? I'd like to buy them for what they know, and sell them for what they think they know...

I generally like to BS a bit with gunstore folks before really getting in to looking at any firearms. Once they figure you're not recently fallen off a turnip truck, any notion of shucking and jiving disappears. And, if the level of knowledge is only shucking and jiving, the salesman usually disappears as well. :)

I've noticed that when looking at pistols and I mention shooting IPSC, or hunting with a pistol or having my own range, that salesmen sorta lay back to answer as best they can. And, often admit they don't know some answers.

Becoming knowlegeable about manufacturers and models and pricing is the best defense againt scams. That's one reason for reading through Shotgun News or the Gun List from time to time.

:), Art

12 Volt Man
May 19, 2003, 06:24 PM
3. Gun store "garenteeing to beat anyone's price" but when called on it they backed down. My brother was in the market for a Glock 36 and the dealer that I had been going through claimed he could sell for less than anyone else in town. I saw a new G-36 for $499 at a chain store and asked if he could beat it. He told me that I was mistaken and it couldn't be a G36 for that price as his cost on that gun was $550. Some garentee. What good is a garentee if they don't really stand behind it? I never stepped foot in that store again.

I had this same experience with Impact Guns they have a Low Price Guarantee (http://www.impactguns.com/store/priceguarantee.html) I went in armed with it and they refused to match the better price I had found on a gun. They kept telling me that I had to factor in shipping and transfer fees. That is why I try to shop locally. To avoid the shipping and transfer fees.

I agree what good is a guarantee if you don't stand by it?:cuss:

TechBrute
May 19, 2003, 06:35 PM
Noone will honor a web price in a real store, doesn't matter what industry. Heck, CompUSA won't even honor their own web prices in their stores.

Cosmoline
May 19, 2003, 06:40 PM
A bubba hack-job on a K-98k Mauser tagged as "Commercial Mauser" and priced at over $700! That one was over the line into fraud, IMHO.

blades67
May 19, 2003, 06:55 PM
I haven't seen any gunshow scams. That is probably because I don't go to gunshows because I don't feel the need to be scammed.:rolleyes:

telewinz
May 19, 2003, 07:16 PM
Its sad but true that gunshow dealers are some of the most dishonest vendors in America. Many are commercial dealers that "unload" their junk on the unsuspected. Traded (25 years ago) a guy a S&W M25 for an army issue carbine and cash. Took the carbine home to clean and the barrel UNSCREWED in my hands. Went back to the show and the guy was gone. I have less trust of the gun fraternity than I do for used car salesmen. Had a "buddy" sell me a German G-43 20 years ago. He knew-thought it was dangerous to fire because the rear of the receiver was cracked. Watched me fire 20+ rounds of 8mm (from a safe distance) without saying a word, he had his money. Got home and discovered the condition, turns out a cracked rear receiver doesn't effect the lock-up on the G-43. Gun show dealers aren't the salt of the Earth, just go to any gunshow and try to prove me wrong. They must have dealt in the slave trade in a previous life. I'll support all the paperwork and regulations the government dreams up if it applies just to those low life gun dealers.:barf: An Hakim for $700, yea, right!:cuss:

JeepDriver
May 19, 2003, 07:51 PM
I watched as the employees at the range re-packaged the Speer Recall Ammo(the 124 +p 9mm) from the 250 round box into 50 round bags then mark the bags $12.99, with no marks indicating that it was Recall or Reclassified Ammo. :(

P95Carry
May 19, 2003, 08:32 PM
I'll just reiterate .... far as gun shows go ....... there are bargains to be had ... BUT ....

''Buyer Beware''.

There are times when I prefer my local gun store and put up with paying a tad more .... at least there is usually come back if problems.

winwun
May 20, 2003, 07:49 AM
IMHO, lots of persons in business, I'm talking about the little "Mom 'N Pop" operations, do not view cheating and nefarious practices in the same light as the rest of us. My personal experience has been that in counting my change, if an error is made, 90% or better of the time it will be in favor of the vendor. In situations where the register figures out the change, a non-existent item will be entered.

In many restaurants, the fine print on the menu tells you that the gratuity will be added to the check. Still the waitress will encourage you to leave something on the table.

Good Advice: In situations where taking the advice of someone will put money in his pocket, DONT ! !

At gun shows, I find that I can get a better deal if I deal with a woman. It is easy to see that they are often unhappy, and could think of a thousand other places that they would rather be.

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