Straw Purchasing - Capital Offense?


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Air,Land&Sea
October 15, 2006, 11:37 AM
Would it be a good idea to make straw purchasing a capital offense? Something tells me "yes", but please discuss if you have an opinion either way.
Thanks.

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knuckles
October 15, 2006, 11:41 AM
Hm, just on the surface that seems a 'little' severe...

MatthewVanitas
October 15, 2006, 11:42 AM
Executing people for lying on paperwork?

Umm, how about we focus on executing people that actually murder, rape, and mutilate first?

If we're going to execute people for straw purchasing, then illegal gun runners might as well start murdering gun collectors and taking their guns. If the penalty is all the same anyway, why not take the easiest path?


IIRC, ancient India had a similar issue when they made highway robbery a capital crime. Robbers decided that they might as well murder all their victims to get rid of the witnesses. If the robbery itself is a capital crime, might as well get the most out of it, right?

Something tells me "yes"

What, pray tell, would that "something" be?

Giving you a little ribbing here, but seriously, it's a terrible idea.

-MV

plexreticle
October 15, 2006, 11:47 AM
Read the constitution mentioned in your sig and decide if something should tell you "No".

MechAg94
October 15, 2006, 12:02 PM
I don't like the idea of getting executed for buying a gift for my Dad.

Of all the crimes that need greater enforcement, that is way down on the list.

Biker
October 15, 2006, 12:08 PM
Not just no, but Hell No!

Biker

ConstitutionCowboy
October 15, 2006, 12:21 PM
...any law against a "straw purchase" would be unconstitutional. Keep the violent criminals locked up if you don't want them to wreak havoc on the people. The only way the state can have any control over the behavior of these people is to keep them in custody. Making all the rest of us jump through hoops that these criminals will ignore in the first place is pure stupidity, not to mention unconstitutional. It amounts to forcing your neighbor to the North to fence in his yard because your neighbor's dog to the South craps in your yard.

Woody

Though we may still exercise our Right to Keep and Bear Arms after filling out a bunch of paperwork, the real issue is the unconstitutional infringement the paperwork represents. That is where the infringements upon our right began. Look what those infringements are today... B.E.Wood

Travis Lee
October 15, 2006, 12:26 PM
I bought a rifle for my dad.

Boo hoo I'm just so EVIL.

I'm supposed to be "High road" with such a troll?

--Travis--

1911 guy
October 15, 2006, 12:35 PM
None of us will be able to buy guns and we'll all need straw buyers. Take a look at what has been criminalized in the last twenty years and tell me if more things need to be outlawed or further penalized.

Heard in the news yesterday that a man in Ca. was in contract with the state to grow a given number of pounds of weeed for medical patients. No arguing about that now, just listen. The feds came in and arrested him. Is he a loose cannon that can't be trusted? He wasn't peddling because the state was auditing and controling the growing.

Want something a little closer to home? Try speaking your mind in public. Remember the term "hate speech". That's what the charges will read. The klan on one side and the nation of islam on the other have lawyers. You'll get stuck and pay for saying things nowhere near as vitriolic as those clowns.

Oh, the best part? Under the new laws (think patriot act, et al), you'll never know who you even offended.

No, we shouldn't make it a capital crime. The things that should be are not and now we're talking about it over paperwork that's illegitimate to start with?

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 15, 2006, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure how you expect anyone to discuss this, Air,Land&Sea. You've posted a radical suggestion that is far out in left field, most folks haven't ever considered it, let alone given it enough thought to discuss it. Unfortunately, proposing such an idea without any supporting reasons makes it rather difficult to discuss.

I suppose there is a chance you don't understand what the words "capital offense" mean, since I can't think of one rational reason that would compel a person to single out a particular offense of all the tangled mess of federal gun laws as being particular worthy of the death penalty.


I bought a rifle for my dad. Boo hoo I'm just so EVIL.

Either you don't know what a straw purchase is or you just admitted to committing felony. Neither shows a particular degree of "High Road" style posting.

50caliber123
October 15, 2006, 12:48 PM
what if you buy a firearm as a gift for someone? I know, thats an excuse used by people who knowingly make straw purchases regularly, but what if you bought a gun for your wife or another close person?

beerslurpy
October 15, 2006, 12:52 PM
It is arguable that "straw purchasing" shouldnt even be a crime. It's often nothing more than a failure to correctly fill out a form.

I think the main problem with the ATF is that gun owners are no longer demonized in the nightly news. Since 94, the only politically defensible role for them anymore is fighting violent gun crime- and that is almost completely off-limits to federal enforcement. They lack the manpower, the funds and the jurisdiction to start doing the work of local police. In the end, they are confined to going after the low hanging fruit of NFA collectors and FFLs. Which is why we even have crimes like "straw purchasing" and "abbreviating a state name" and "writing Y instead of YES."

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 15, 2006, 12:55 PM
Giving a gift to someone who can legally own it is not a straw purchase.

The Federal firearms laws require that the individual filling out this form must be buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift. Any individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift, but who completes this form, violates the law. Example: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out the form, he will violate the law. However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form. A licensee who knowingly delivers a firearm to an individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift violates the law by maintaining a false ATF F[orm] 4473. Source. (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=11th&navby=case&no=9913906MAN)

DerringerUser
October 15, 2006, 12:58 PM
Executing people for lying on paperwork?

Umm, how about we focus on executing people that actually murder, rape, and mutilate first?

If we're going to execute people for straw purchasing, then illegal gun runners might as well start murdering gun collectors and taking their guns. If the penalty is all the same anyway, why not take the easiest path?


IIRC, ancient India had a similar issue when they made highway robbery a capital crime. Robbers decided that they might as well murder all their victims to get rid of the witnesses. If the robbery itself is a capital crime, might as well get the most out of it, right?

I agree, straw purchasing should be a more minor offense. I dont think it should ever go unpunished though.

MachIVshooter
October 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
what if you buy a firearm as a gift for someone? I know, thats an excuse used by people who knowingly make straw purchases regularly, but what if you bought a gun for your wife or another close person?

So long as you ae not accepting currency, goods, labor or some other form of bartering for the firearm, it is legal.

On the same note, the father who buys his 14 year old son a hunting rifle for chores and yardwork done all summer long has not committed an offense either. Parents are allowed to purchase firearms for their children for legitimate sporting purposes. However, the child may not be in possession of said firearm when not accompanied by parent or gaurdian unless engaged in such activities. This also varies from state to state; the above is Federal.

cazador1022
October 15, 2006, 01:04 PM
The problem is that some left wing prosecuter can interpret the law different and prosecute you for buying your father in law a rifle for x-mas. Even if the case fails you get raked over the coals (money / time in jail ect...)and he still makes a name as a strong left wing with political ASSpirations. :cuss:

Air,Land&Sea
October 15, 2006, 01:38 PM
Thank you for the responses. The point is that suggestions that make sense on the surface to the masses are anything but sensible.
Again, thanks. You've also helped me out with my debating points.

Jorg Nysgerrig
October 15, 2006, 02:01 PM
The point is that suggestions that make sense on the surface to the masses are anything but sensible.
I doubt the asinine suggestion that straw purchases are eligible for the death penalty makes sense on the surface to any masses, even the most hardcore antigun groups.

:rolleyes:

Sistema1927
October 15, 2006, 03:10 PM
Why should there be ANY penalty for a "straw purchase"?

In other words, why do we have to fill out any forms or peperwork in order to own a weapon?

We need to punish violent criminals, and allow anyone who isn't behind bars to purchase weapons without having to ask permission. (Man, I miss the good old days.)

Alex45ACP
October 15, 2006, 03:16 PM
Nope. In fact, "straw purchase" laws shouldn't even exist. We should be able to purchase firearms without any government interference whatsoever.

orangelo
October 15, 2006, 03:18 PM
No because the mexican government will raise all kinds of hell with mexican straw purchasers on death row and Jorge Bush won't go along with that.

At the gun show this weekend a couple of hispanics were trying to buy a handgun neither had any form of ID. When the first one was told he would not be sold a handgun the second one piped up and said he would buy it for the first guy. Then he didn't have any ID either.

"They're only here to do the jobs Americans won't" my ass. Apparently they are here to do the straw purchases Americans won't too. Good thing the dealer told them to get lost.

44AMP
October 15, 2006, 05:42 PM
Leaving aside the entire argument about "why should we have to fill out forms in the first place", the "straw man purchase" is a nebulous and unclear term. Oh, it sound perfectly clear on the surface, but the legal interpretation is pretty much up to what a prosecutor thinks it is.

The law allows for the purchase of a firearm for yourself, or as a gift. Anything else can be interpreted as a straw man purchase. They say it is intended to nail the guys that buy half a dozen handguns and then sell them somewhere else (like NYC or Washington DC). These people are guilty of "straw man purchases", AND guilty of dealing in firearms without a FFL. Also often in violation of various interstate commerce laws.

So, now you have the idea of making this level of crime a capital (death penalty) level crime. It sounds appealing, as a way of getting rid of these people, whose actions bring the wrath of anti-gun people down on the rest of us. But the practical side of the idea has way too many pitfalls to have any actual merit.

First of all, it would have to be a Federal crime. Got any idea how many Federal death penalty crimes there are? And more importantly, how many convicted criminals actually get executed for them? Do a little research, and you will find that the Federal Govt. doesn't execute very many people, and for things much worse than straw man purchases, which may actually be nothing more than a mistake on the paperwork and an overzelous prosecutor.

So, like the "nuke the terrorists" crowd, your idea, while having an emotional appeal, cannot work (and should not be tried) in the real world.

Now, something with a less drastic penalty, yet more than what is currently in place, might have some chance of actually be implemented. Provided, that the law is written to include intent to defraud as a condition of conviction.

razorburn
October 15, 2006, 08:10 PM
I think you do not know what "capital offense" means. Making a straw purchase a capital offense doesn't make sense to the public. It doesn't make sense to anybody. Not hard core liberals, not neo-conservatives, not even to the crazy homeless guy who tries to wipe down your windshield with a dirty newspaper at the intersection. Nobody has ever suggested it, besides yourself, that I am aware of.

Otherguy Overby
October 15, 2006, 08:35 PM
Capitol offense? There should be a capitol offense for the politicians who came up with this.

gezzer
October 15, 2006, 10:15 PM
You are the offense for even thinking against the constitution like that. That should be the capital offence for defying the constitution.:cuss:

Zedicus
October 15, 2006, 10:24 PM
You are the offense for even thinking against the constitution like that. That should be the capital offence for defying the constitution.
+1

to topic poster: Seriously, What Are you Smoking???:scrutiny:

mike101
October 15, 2006, 10:39 PM
I thought all of you guys thought ALL gun laws were unconstitutional. :confused:

cosine
October 15, 2006, 10:43 PM
Execute a person for a malum prohibitum crime like participating in a straw purchase? Huh? That is seriously not a good idea.

Air,Land&Sea
October 15, 2006, 10:54 PM
Some of you may have skipped over post #18. Could happen to anyone.

The Lone Haranguer
October 15, 2006, 11:12 PM
A capital offense? :rolleyes: Draco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco) would be proud.

;)

Carl N. Brown
October 16, 2006, 02:55 PM
"Capitol offense? There should be a capitol offense for the politicians who came up with this."
Well, they are capitol offenders. Offenders in the capitol. Or something.

If one were buying for someone they knew was a felon or for a
stranger unknown to them, or anyone unable to legally buy a gun,
they would be in the wrong, law or not law. Misdemeanor aiding
and abetting perhaps. But capital offense means hanging offense.

Buying a gun as a gift for someone who can legally buy or own a gun
themselves, especially if the someone already owns other guns,
should be in the right, law or no law.

There's right and wrong, then there's legal and illegal. Kinda like
truth, lies, admissable evidence and inadmissable evidence being four
different things.

On "Straw Purchase" you have to check with the BATFE website
for the latest take on what it means and conduct yourself
accordingly.

mp510
October 16, 2006, 03:56 PM
No. It doesn't seem to be serious enough. MOst modern societies have resevred death for the most serious crimes, which have actual victims. Should driving without a license, or doing business without a business license or tax tag be a capital offense. I think not. A straw purchase should be a serious offense, but not that serious.

Otherguy Overby
October 16, 2006, 04:13 PM
Carl N. Brown:
"Capitol offense? There should be a capitol offense for the politicians who came up with this."
Well, they are capitol offenders. Offenders in the capitol. Or something.


Sheesh Carl, thanks for catching my spelling error. I wasn't paying attention. I do know the difference, though. Feeling kinda doltish right now.

I'm now wondering what a "capitol" offense would be. Could it be something like Nancy Pelosi walking into Congress?

Then we have principle, and principal. Of course DC is sadly lacking in the former. And all there wanna be the latter. Oh, well.

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