Principal May Be Charged in Cat Killings (shooting)


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gunsmith
October 15, 2006, 06:48 PM
why not just call animal control?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061015/D8KP4QUG0.html

Principal May Be Charged in Cat Killings
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Oct 15, 11:02 AM (ET)

INDUS, Minn. (AP) - A school principal has resigned and could face felony firearm charges after he shot and killed two orphaned kittens on school property last month.

Wade Pilloud, who resigned as principal of the K-12 Indus school, 40 miles west of International Falls, said he shot the kittens to spare them from starving to death after their mother was killed in an animal trap.

Pilloud said the shooting, which occurred on school grounds, endangered no one.

"I have bred cats, and I currently own two myself," he wrote Friday in an e-mail to the Minneapolis Star Tribune. "I am not a cat hater. I did not want the animals to suffer."

The incident happened Sept. 21, and several students still on the grounds for after-school activities heard the shots.

"There were parents who felt, apparently some rather strongly, that there were concerns about the safety of their children," said Joseph Flynn, an attorney for the South Koochiching/Rainy River School District. "The district's position is that safety was not compromised."

John Mastin, acting sheriff in Koochiching County, said Pilloud could be charged with felony possession of a firearm on school property and reckless discharge of a firearm, a misdemeanor.

County Attorney Jennifer Hasbargen said Friday that the case was under review.

Mastin said the shooting put no one in danger but said Pilloud used "poor discretion and poor timing," especially amid the growing fear of gun violence in schools.

The district put Pilloud on administrative leave after the incident. Flynn said Pilloud agreed to an undisclosed settlement and resigned.

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Tommygunn
October 15, 2006, 07:04 PM
I hate hearing these kinds of stories. If he was so concerned about these cats starving to death, why didn't he try to find them homes?

c_yeager
October 15, 2006, 07:17 PM
I hate hearing these kinds of stories. If he was so concerned about these cats starving to death, why didn't he try to find them homes?


There are a hell of a lot more cats out there than there are homes for them.

Aguila Blanca
October 15, 2006, 07:45 PM
John Mastin, acting sheriff in Koochiching County, said Pilloud could be charged with felony possession of a firearm on school property and reckless discharge of a firearm, a misdemeanor.
" ... could be" charged?

I want to know why he wasn't already charged. If he "could be" charged with those things, they must be against the law. If any of US carried a gun onto school property and started shooting stray cats, do you think for a nanosecond that acting Sheriff Mastin would just send us home while he considered whether or not me might be charged?

I don't think so. I think we'd be hauled off the school yard in handcuffs and have to make a significant bail before being allowed to go home. Yeah, it's a bad law ... but even bad laws are worse when they are not applied objectively and uniformly.

beerslurpy
October 15, 2006, 07:59 PM
Why is this even an issue at all, let alone a crime? The cats didnt belong to anyone and no one was harmed by his firing of the gun. This whole thing reeks of nanny-statism.

carterbeauford
October 15, 2006, 08:05 PM
"Felony firearms charges" sure sounds intimidating, but I read of no specific charges.

Maybe he should have used an air rifle.

beerslurpy
October 15, 2006, 08:09 PM
He should have stuck them in a garbage bag and tied the open end around the tailpipe of his car. Bingo, no firearms charges and no animal cruelty because thats how the shelters do it.

Still, who cares about destroying feral cats? Unless you're offering to adopt them (hope you have a million pounds of kitty feed), they need to be disposed of. As long someone doesnt use an especially cruel method of dispatching them, I dont see how it is a big deal.

Shooting cats with a gun is not an especially cruel method of killing them, especially if you shoot the CNS. It isnt like he set them on fire or put them in the blender.

Vairochana
October 15, 2006, 08:34 PM
Apparently that is the Ethical way yo do it (PETA)

bouis
October 15, 2006, 08:52 PM
I have no qualms about disposing of unwanted animals, but shooting them is unnecessary and probably unsanitary. I would have just drowned them...

Phenom
October 15, 2006, 08:59 PM
No, that's not how vets do it. Vets use the "Lethal Injection" method;) He could have taken the kittens to an animal shelter instead. He's very lucky I wasn't around him when he did that terrible thing. I most likely would have shoved the rifle down his throat, buttstock first:D

Panthera Tigris
October 15, 2006, 09:05 PM
I'm with Phenom. Even if there are more animals than homes for them, you have to at least take them there and try. And, drowning is just about the cruelest way to kill something. I have no respect for anyone that says they'd drown an animal.

bouis
October 15, 2006, 09:58 PM
Rats are probably more intelligent than cats and thousands or millions of them are killed every day in incredibly inhumane ways and no one gives a damn, even the tree-hugging vegans.

Drowning is a very quick and easy way to dispose of very young animals. It's no less humane than letting them them develop until they're much more aware, only to spend their entire lives in a cage before being killed in an unnecessarily expensive way because it eases consciences and fattens a few wallets.

Gunfire
October 15, 2006, 10:03 PM
Pilloud could be charged with felony possession of a firearm on school property

Does anyone know if this is a state law or the federal unconstitutional 'guns in school zones amendment'?

This could be a good challenge to strike it down a second time.

I suspect they won't charge him with the federal crime just so he can't challenge it. Yes, he's a dumbass but still an up-standing principal, with no criminal intent, caught up in the unintended consequences of federal over-jurisdiction.

Liberal Gun Nut
October 15, 2006, 10:11 PM
Very stupid of him to end his career by doing this. I think he wanted to shoot something. The simple and sensible thing to do is to call the county animal control office and let them handle it. The way things work in this society, you don't win by trying to solve problems that are not your problem.

SoCalShooter
October 15, 2006, 10:13 PM
Come on, seriously take the cats home, feed them and then take them to a shelter or see if any parents at the school would like some orphaned kittens.

garyk/nm
October 15, 2006, 10:14 PM
Idiot!
Having a gun in a no-gun-zone. Strike 1.
FIRING a gun in a no-gun-zone. Strike 2.
Killing defenseless kittens, oh lord, don't get me started.
I hope they fry his stupid azz. :fire:

SoCalShooter
October 15, 2006, 10:15 PM
He should absolutely be punished to the full extent of law, his actions were not that of a responsible gun owner.

PotatoJudge
October 15, 2006, 10:25 PM
High schools are about the best place to get rid of kittens (without a gun of course). My mom has probably found 50 kittens new homes in the years she's taught. Shooting them was very stupid, at the least, and stupid people shouldn't be in charge of education. Now if it comes out that the kittens were covered in ants and dying already, that's a different story- but still one that shouldn't involve guns at school.
As for the parents that were afraid for their childrens' safety over this, lets hope they're not in education either.

cyco668
October 15, 2006, 10:28 PM
The principal decided to euthanize (the humane way of killing) the cats. Some would of tried to find a homes or have the students adopt them. Some people may agree with killing the cats. I think the guy made a bad decision with how and when he did it. He shot a gun at school while students were present on school grounds. Isn't that the important issue? Not killing cats, but shooting a gun at an elementary school when the little kids were present. Adults may understand why he killed the kittens, but will all the 8 yr old girls understand? School grounds wasn't the place to do it.

Drowning doesn't always work. I tried drowning my fish, over and over, and they just wouldn't drown! No matter how long i kept them underwater.

Trip20
October 15, 2006, 10:48 PM
This reminds me how Wisconsin almost introduced a feral cat season. That would have been fun. ;)

jlbraun
October 15, 2006, 10:56 PM
By the same token, would it be irresponsible to shoot a raccoon that came into your house? I'm interested, because this came up recently with a friend of mine.

MechAg94
October 15, 2006, 10:57 PM
I just cannont believe that a person in the good old USofA may get prosecuted for shooting cats. What is this country coming to??!! :neener:

I guess he should have just used a shovel? Yes, on school grounds, animal control or law enforcement would have been the prudent way to go. Or at least take them somewhere else to do it. Not smart to shoot on school property these days. Hell, you could probably put them in a card board box and find some kids to take them home or at least feed them during the day.

gezzer
October 15, 2006, 11:01 PM
It was a couple of cats, WHo cares? Not me the are as bad as rats.

brerrabbit
October 15, 2006, 11:02 PM
Or just have some type of naming constest for the cats, and at the end of the day, give the winner and the runner up a free kitten.

Liberal Gun Nut
October 15, 2006, 11:02 PM
By the same token, would it be irresponsible to shoot a raccoon that came into your house? I'm interested, because this came up recently with a friend of mine.

If you're in an urban area where guns are not completely PC, then yes it's stupid to discharge a firearm in your house. Discharge a firearm in an incorporated city is usually illegal. Is the raccoon a threat to your life? No. Is he messing up your house? Yes, that's tough luck. Call the cops, call animal control, whatever. The trouble you can get from shooting in your house (arrest, fighting charges of unlawful discharge of a firearm, etc) are so big that no sane person would do it, except maybe in an rural area where such a thing would be clearly culturally acceptable.

It's also dangerous to shoot rounds in your house unless you live in a sparsely-populated area. Bullets can miss and most pistol calibers can penetrate a dozen layers of drywall.

This is so stupid. If you want to shoot an animal, get a hunting license and do it that way, or get a pellet gun and shoot mice in your basement where no one can see you.

Our society takes a very strict view of guns these days. We would do best to acknowledge that. We own guns for IMPORTANT things like defending our lives. If we use them for stupid, frivolous, cruel, or otherwise unnecessary things like shooting kittens and raccoons, it certainly does not help promote the image of being responsible gun owners.

brerrabbit
October 15, 2006, 11:06 PM
Are we gonna start a "What gun for kittens?" thread?

Sorry, couldnt resist.

And no one else posted it either.

Gunfire
October 15, 2006, 11:08 PM
Yes, he made a bad choice but do you guys think he should be charged with a federal felony and lose his rtba forever?

It seems to me this is the governments mo since the lautenburg act, disarm as many citizens as possible using obscure (no intent) and ex post facto law.

Do you agree that the 'gunfree school zones act' is good law and in the interests of the BoR's and the people?

Go ahead charge him with cruelty but there was no intent. Charge him with improper discharge but there was no property damage or injuries to anyone. These are both misdemeanors and he wouldn't risk his rtba's though. When did america lose it's collective common sense?

jlbraun
October 15, 2006, 11:09 PM
Thanks, Liberal Gun Nut.

White Horseradish
October 15, 2006, 11:13 PM
What, there is a sudden shortage of woods in Wisconsin I didn't know about?

Shooting is as good a way to kill unwanted animals as any other, but to do it on school property, given the laws, is just moronic. I am not gong to be all broken up about this guy losing his RKBA. He's just too stupid.

Liberal Gun Nut
October 15, 2006, 11:21 PM
Some people shouldn't own guns. This guy is one of them.

Option 1: he wanted to do the right thing (euthanize kittens) but had collasally bad judgement to not respect laws and powerful cultural mores. In that case, if his shoot / no-shoot judgement is so flawed, he shouldn't own guns.

Option 2: He was having a bad day and really wanted to shoot something and guess what he found some kittens that he thought needed shootin' so he shot them. That shows emotional problems and I think he shouldn't own guns.

Option 3: He's a really good guy trying to do all the right things and society and our laws are all wrong wrong wrong!

I don't believe in Option 3.

Gunfire
October 15, 2006, 11:23 PM
To attain his position he is not stupid. He made a bad choice, that at the time, he thought he was doing a good thing. Who here has never made a bad choice at one time in your life? Should you be condemned forever?

Don't you think losing his career is punishment enough? I think it's also too much for this mistake.

Gunfire
October 15, 2006, 11:29 PM
Option 3: He's a really good guy trying to do all the right things and society and our laws are all wrong wrong wrong!

Actually option 3 is correct. Do you really believe the 'gunfree school zone act' is Constitutional? and what is powerful cultural mores?

Liberal Gun Nut
October 15, 2006, 11:29 PM
Don't you think losing his career is punishment enough? I think it's also too much for this mistake.

Yeah, losing his career is more than enough punishment. What's he gonna do after this? I'm sure it will make him think very seriously about how he handles firearms in the future. I don't think he should be charged. I'm just saying, this guy showed such bad judgement and (I believe) emotional immaturity, that is a big goof-up.

vmfrantz
October 15, 2006, 11:40 PM
Cat killing is illega?:D

Gunfire
October 15, 2006, 11:43 PM
If we were tight and right with the Constitution and no one got their panties in a wad over the rtba this could have gone down in school lore as "Old man Pilloud killed them cats back in O 6, we better watch what we do", and no one would even consider a columbine.

joab
October 15, 2006, 11:47 PM
Pilloud used "poor discretion and poor timing,"That's what he's being prosecuted for.
I have to see his record on Zero Tolerance issues before I feel sorry for him

He is the principal of a school, one could reasonably assume that he is aware of the laws prohibiting guns on campus.

Stupidity is usually painful in one way or another, it's Gods way if calling you a dumb ass

And by the way drowning is how the SPCA tells us to dispose of live captured rats.

SoCalShooter
October 15, 2006, 11:48 PM
This man is not god and he should not be killing kittens unless he is doing the work of god.:evil: :evil: :p

vmfrantz
October 15, 2006, 11:59 PM
If you look at it from a librals eyes he didnt kill the cats. Whats the big deal. The firearm did it. Or manufacture of the bullets. Now I'm confused:neener:

X Who
October 16, 2006, 12:05 AM
If these were feral cats, it would not be easy to catch them and almost impossible to tame them. I have seen feral cats and I couldn't get within 10 feet of them. I would never try to catch one with my hands.

Even if that is the case, he could have called animal control (unless it's such a small town that there isn't any).

hankdatank1362
October 16, 2006, 12:21 AM
It's not his damn call if he wants to euthanize the cats or not. He shot two orphaned kittens.

I'm a hunter, so don't think I'm some PETA nut or something. But the KITTENS should have had an opportunity to be captured and taken to the pound, where the very well might have found a home. Who made this guy judge, jury, and executioner of all things cute and fuzzy?

It's not like they attack kids or anything. And Christ, he did it at a school, where he isn't allowed to have a gun, and where all the little children now, probably already terrified by hearing gunshots at school, now have to try to understand why their butcher of a principal murdered two kitttens.

This dumb SOB shouldn't be roaming the streets, much less have a gun. They should bust him on every count, cruelty to animals included.

DerringerUser
October 16, 2006, 12:22 AM
If you're in an urban area where guns are not completely PC, then yes it's stupid to discharge a firearm in your house. Discharge a firearm in an incorporated city is usually illegal. Is the raccoon a threat to your life? No. Is he messing up your house? Yes, that's tough luck. Call the cops, call animal control, whatever. The trouble you can get from shooting in your house (arrest, fighting charges of unlawful discharge of a firearm, etc) are so big that no sane person would do it, except maybe in an rural area where such a thing would be clearly culturally acceptable.

It's also dangerous to shoot rounds in your house unless you live in a sparsely-populated area. Bullets can miss and most pistol calibers can penetrate a dozen layers of drywall.

This is so stupid. If you want to shoot an animal, get a hunting license and do it that way, or get a pellet gun and shoot mice in your basement where no one can see you.

Our society takes a very strict view of guns these days. We would do best to acknowledge that. We own guns for IMPORTANT things like defending our lives. If we use them for stupid, frivolous, cruel, or otherwise unnecessary things like shooting kittens and raccoons, it certainly does not help promote the image of being responsible gun owners.

You're right. In urban areas, if you own a gun, everybody views you as a criminal or terrorist, and tells their kids "stay away from crazy Mr. Joe down the street". Trust me, if you own a gun in an urban area, its best to keep it to yourself.

Rezin
October 16, 2006, 12:48 AM
Hope he is made an example of..................

AnthonyRSS
October 16, 2006, 01:00 AM
This guy is a moron not for killing cats, but for doing it on school property. Thats just dumb.

I can't believe all yall get upset over some kittens. Thousands are kilt every day at shelters. So sad. :rolleyes:

Tommygunn
October 16, 2006, 01:05 AM
Rats are probably more intelligent than cats...

I highly doubt that... I had a cat that was quite good at catching rats...but I never saw a rat catch a cat.
Never saw a domesticated rat, either
...unless you count politicians.............:neener:

countertop
October 16, 2006, 01:13 AM
Are you people serious????? Did HSUSA all of a sudden take over the high road?

If he wanted to shoot the cats, let him shoot the cats. They are strays, kill tons of songbirds and other local creatures, probably have rabies, and are nearly imposibble to find new homes for.

Shooting them is a quick, inexpensive, and humane way to dispose of them.

bouis
October 16, 2006, 01:25 AM
I highly doubt that... I had a cat that was quite good at catching rats...but I never saw a rat catch a cat.
Never saw a domesticated rat, either
...unless you count politicians.............

Heheh. Never heard of a lab rat? Domesticated rats make great pets. I had one when I was a kid. They can be taught to come when you call them, to do various tricks, etc. I don't know if they're actually smarter than cats (or how you would compare animal intelligences...), but rats are definitely intelligent, have basic emotions, are aware of pain, etc., in every way that a cat or dog is.

Only problem with keeping a rat as a pet is that they don't live very long - three years or so.

gunsmith
October 16, 2006, 05:32 AM
what?! he is somehow unaware of the recent spate of school shootings?
as a school administrator he was somehow unaware of laws about bringing guns to school?
now combine the two, the law and school shooting he was somehow unaware about what would happen if other kids and teachers heard gunshot.

If you are a teacher go ahead and sneak a gun to school, God bless you, just use it for protecting life and limb period.

Homer Simpson is far more qualified then this guy.

He's unquestionably a real dumb, but I disagree with felony charges.
A slap on the wrist is what I would say.

Oh, and a new job somewhere where smartness is not required...congress maybe?:neener:

LadySmith
October 16, 2006, 06:01 AM
Are you people serious????? Did HSUSA all of a sudden take over the high road?

If he wanted to shoot the cats, let him shoot the cats. They are strays, kill tons of songbirds and other local creatures, probably have rabies, and are nearly imposibble to find new homes for.

Shooting them is a quick, inexpensive, and humane way to dispose of them.

It's a matter of intelligence and ethics. Shooting orphaned kittens on school grounds, especially while children are present, is neither intelligent nor ethical. As previously pointed out, it was also unnecessary.
Unrelated, but perhaps relevant: I just heard about a Marine who brought an Iraq puppy that his unit adopted to the US for a better life. And here we have an elementary school principal shooting kittens on school grounds. Humph.
Finally, if there's nothing wrong with shooting kittens on school grounds, why aren't you doing it? The very things that prevent you from doing so should've prevented him, or was he extra-special?

Geno
October 16, 2006, 08:19 AM
This guy has earned one of the all-time greatest "D.A." awards!

Doc2005

jfh
October 16, 2006, 11:01 AM
Apparently many of you haven't sorted out ALL the details of this event, but have taken a headlong rush to judgement. That's the style of that judgement, isn't it? An outrageous sense of righteousness?

Some pertinent factors here include these items:

1. The school is in an EXTREMELY rural area. Staff at schools like these often provide anything from the assigned tasks of their contract on forward.

2. These were FERAL kittens. If you don't know what that means, then I suggest you hightail it over to the Internet and learn something. Their mother had been killed in the trap, and the kittens were apparently young enough to still be nursing. Add these factors together, and you have no viable solutions.

3. The shooting--in a very small community--was apparently near the principal's 'home'--a mobile unit provided by the district for his living quarters. However, it was about 300 feet away from the school building. At a 'school district' like this in this setting, you could well be outside the city limits even if you are still on school property.

His hometown--Blackduck, MN (?) is a rural community, and this school is located some fifty-one hundred miles further out from there. Do any of you know northern MN?

All things considered, the principal clearly did the right thing in dispatching these kittens. There is no doubt that he used bad judgement, given the current spate of 'school shootings' and given his procedure. However, it appears that he did shoot 'thoughtfully'--e.g., this incident was away from the school building, and he apparently did not shoot recklessly.

Since I've read at least three revisions of this story, I'm not sure that this version included the observation that this guy is a cat lover himself.

And, given all the circumstances of this incident, I don't think the guy should have even lost his job. A censure--some days off without pay, probably--but this is NOT an incident to riled up about.

What we have here is a rural sense and duty of self-reliance, some bad (political) judgement, and the AP's heightened sense of drama coming out of the fact that the "authorities" did not respond "promptly" to an (external) public's indignation.

Worse yet, now this school district is going to have to find another principal--and there aren't many educators suitable for this kind of contract. It sounds to me like they lost someone who may have been about the best for the job.

Gunfire
October 16, 2006, 11:43 AM
And, given all the circumstances of this incident, I don't think the guy should have even lost his job. A censure--some days off without pay, probably--but this is NOT an incident to riled up about.

+1000

Why ruin this man's life over this petty incident? Because "they" can that's why. And the reason 'they can' is because of stupid, unconstitutional laws like the "gun free school zones act" and 3/4's of the members on this thread stood up for ruining this man's life with an unconstitutional law because if there was no 'gfsz' law this would be the petty incident it really is and would have never made the news. Thanks for standing up fro the right to bear arms. I've never seen such encouragement to infringe on the rtba from so-called Patriots. I really thought I was on a pro-br**y forum listening to some of this drivel.

PotatoJudge
October 16, 2006, 12:09 PM
2. These were FERAL kittens. If you don't know what that means, then I suggest you hightail it over to the Internet and learn something. Their mother had been killed in the trap, and the kittens were apparently young enough to still be nursing. Add these factors together, and you have no viable solutions.


Bottlefeeding is an extremely viable solution, and it also serves to turn what might have been a feral kitten into a very personable and loving cat. Feral or not, kittens tend to attach to whatever's supplying the goods.

They are strays, kill tons of songbirds and other local creatures, probably have rabies, and are nearly imposibble to find new homes for.

"probably" have rabies? I did some research, and according to NYS Dept of Health, "Among all animals submitted for rabies examination [in 2001], the rabies-positivity rate was 8.7%." http://www.wadsworth.org/rabies/AnnualSummaries/2001/index.htm#top
I take it that an animal has to be suspected already to be submitted for rabies examination, which means that even among suspected animals, the rates are pretty low. And this study included ALL types of animals, not just cats, which means that bats and skunks, the animals with the highest rates of rabies, made up most of that 8.7%.

Also, it is not nearly impossible to find new homes for stray kittens. It is for fully grown cats, but kittens are another story.
My point is that it was completely unnecessary to kill these animals at all, and even more unnecessary to use a gun to do so - they weren't a threat, and the principal was doing them no favors.

(I should also note that this is PotatoJudge's wife, he left the thread up and he gave me the ok to reply with his name as long as I added this disclaimer, hope it doesn't offend anyone or reflect badly on him)

Lou629
October 16, 2006, 01:19 PM
It is not even close to being considered 'PC' to have a gun anywhere near a school these days, let alone fire it. This nitwit ought to have known that. He's the principal?? I'd hate to see the overall test scores from that institute of learning!

Geno
October 16, 2006, 01:25 PM
Anyone care to resume discussion of principals having CCWs on school campuses? I'm sure that prior to this incident the "gentleman" would have qualified for a CCW. See, this is exactly the problem I foresee. One never knows what is going on in the mind of a coconut until it cracks. D.A. award.

:D

Doc2005

Gunfire
October 16, 2006, 01:50 PM
Anyone care to resume discussion of principals having CCWs on school campuses? I'm sure that prior to this incident the "gentleman" would have qualified for a CCW. See, this is exactly the problem I foresee. One never knows what is going on in the mind of a coconut until it cracks. D.A. award.

Yes, this would be a non-issue if the right to ccw was not infringed by the unconstitutional 'gun free zone' law. You even imply that he is mentally unstable for killing 2 feral kittens. You are dead wrong, mister.

So, with your logic, we could extend your argument to everywhere? Because there is the possibility that a citizen could make a mistake that harmed neither man or property and firearms should be restricted to only those that will never make mistakes. "We will never know if a citizen will become mentally unstable so firearms must be highly restricted" equals, "One never knows what is going on in the mind of a coconut until it cracks". . Exactly the argument anti's have been using for years.

#shooter
October 16, 2006, 02:16 PM
garyk/nm +1

If any of us fired a gun on school property we would be arrested and charged on the spot, especially after all the recent school shooting. We would have been “made and example of” and the prosecutor would use it as bonus resume material for the election. “Keeping your children safe and guns out of schools, vote for Jane Smith County Prosecutor”

It sounds like the principle is getting special treatment. Shooting unwanted cats on your property is fine, but on someone else’s or on public land is irresponsible and makes the rest of us look bad.

hnk45acp
October 16, 2006, 02:39 PM
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter why he did what he did. When the discussion comes around to why CCWs are being infringed upon by so called "Gun Free Zones", the antis will inevitably bring this up.
1. School shooting occurs
2. CCW holders will say "If only we were allowed to carry in the "Gun Free Zone"...
3. Antis say "Look at that dimwit who shot those cats"...
Whether you agree with what he did he just made our lives a bit harder

Erebus
October 16, 2006, 02:46 PM
Just to get some facts straight.

1. It's easy to find homes for kittens. Adults are hard to place, kittens are easy to place.

2. I have 2 cats now, both were born ferel. Both were eating regular food but less than 1 year old when I took them in. Even ferel adults can be tamed and be good pets. If they have had a hard life and you provide a safe stable one they are even more loyal once they learn to trust you. It's not easy but it's worthy and rewarding to see a cat that struggled to survive lazily enjoying the warmth of the sun with a full belly and good health laying on your floor. And believe me they remember who did them right. One of them was starving to death when I caught him because he was stuck in a warehouse with nothing to eat. They are the best cats I have ever had and they are numbers 5 and 6.

3. My third cat was a ferel as well but was only a couple weeks old when I got him. He had to be fed formula with a bottle but was perfectly healthy.


That all being said. Shooting a stray cat in and of itself shouldn't be a legal problem. They can be a major nuisance as they are intelligent and can be destructive when looking for what they want. I choose to catch them and either adopt them or bring them to a local "no kill" shelter. But that's my choice. A principal has a school to run and probaly doesn't have time to deal with catching cats. If there is someone avaliable that can catch them in a time frame acceptable to the principal that's great but if that isn't avaliable shoot them. It's quick, it's humane, and it's cheap for already over burdened schools.

The "gun free zone" is ridiclous and unconstitutional and has been discussed to death here so I won't go into it.

He should have waited until no one was on the grounds to get scared. He was safe about it and that SHOULD BE the primary concern.

This guy facing a felony is as ridiclous as the law bringing it about. He should be facing disiplinary action by the school board at the worst. If the "gun free zone" law didn't exist I could understand a RULE NOT LAW enforceable by the school faculty/board stating that such activity only occur after all students have left the grounds. Less chance of an accident.

countertop
October 16, 2006, 05:05 PM
For the sake of not having to rehash wise words,

I'd suggest all the liberal kitten lovers re-read JH's post (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2776335&postcount=50).

As for the individual comments

1. It's easy to find homes for kittens. Adults are hard to place, kittens are easy to place.


That certainly hasn't been my experience. I had 9 ophaned kittens living in a barn on my property in Vermont after momma was killed by a fisher cat, cost me nearly $800 to vaccinate them, spay and neuter them, and make them even close to adoption ready. Guess what, we still couldn't give them away.

Should have spent the $1.00 on ammo to dispose of them in a quick and harmless fashion as opposed to subsjecting them to the cruelties of surgery and vaccination and then having to sit in a shelter for weeks (an environment they were wholly unprepare to deal with) before being put down (which actually cost me more money).

Shooting orphaned kittens on school grounds, especially while children are present, is neither intelligent nor ethical. As previously pointed out, it was also unnecessary.

Why was it unethical? or un intelligent?

consider me unmoved by your false appeal to the children.

It was after school, in a very rural area, and he worked there. Who cares if students were around. Did he put them in harms way?? No, not that I can see. Except for folks with blinders on living in liberal suburban la la land, I just don't see the appeal of this.


Finally, if there's nothing wrong with shooting kittens on school grounds, why aren't you doing it? The very things that prevent you from doing so should've prevented him, or was he extra-special?

I don't know that anything prevents him from doing what he did.
As for why I'm not doing it, I work in downtown DC in an office, not in a school. Hence, its not my job. If I did work at the school though . . . .

Kentak
October 16, 2006, 05:17 PM
Pretty stupid principal.

Phenom
October 16, 2006, 05:32 PM
My grandmother took two kittens from my sister's cat. I couldn't convince my grandmother that the kittens were in fact females. A year down the road my cat Lou knocked both of them up. My gradmother thought it was winter fat until the kittens were born. The local petstore gladly accepted the kittens they all were adopted out in two days.

gunsmith
October 16, 2006, 05:35 PM
Remington Cat has a lot of personality, and is pretty smart.
He was a feral kitten and was near death when found,I am glad this
unprincipled principle never got anywhere near Remington!

If this is was kind of "rural cat killing is ok kinda place" he never would have gotten in trouble in the first place.
The teachers and the students were not happy with killing the kittys so it is not accepted behavior.....

I am all for guns in school, 100% pro gun instruction and adult ccw and students having guns in their cars if old enough/hunting license etc.

this has nothing to do with ccw, no ones life was in danger here.

Oh and this is Remington, he asked me to ask you guys not to shoot kittens :neener:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/chriskarma/viewphoto.jpg

RioShooter
October 16, 2006, 07:19 PM
The principal should have brought the kittens into the school and asked the staff and students if anyone was interested in adopting the cats.

I adopted two strays found at school by a student. They were only about 2 weeks old. I took them home with me, but brought them back to school everyday for 4 months. The students took turns feeding them. We weighed them every week, and kept a chart on their progress. It was a great learning experience for my students.

The kittens did not have to be killed.:fire:

oae
October 16, 2006, 07:20 PM
This school principal, though highly educated, probably lacked common sense in dispatching these kittens with his personally owned firearm on his employer's property. The ethics of dispatching unwanted kittens aside, who besides law enforcement and employees of security companies can discharge firearms on the employer's property? Not too many I would think.

But, this man did loose his job. He will be most likely charged for some type of crime. That is too bad as do-gooders always like to do the right thing, especially when it is someone else and that person is down on the ground. The do-gooders always seem to need to do more some stomping. Loosing one's job over an incident where no person was physically harmed is not enough.

Give the man a break. He does not need to be charged. Enough damage has been done to him by his own hand. How many of us have done things that we regret? And...how many of us have done things that we have regretted but have never been caught at?

The political climate concerning firearms in the 21st century presents guns and schools as a very bad mix. Firearms in general in our modern times are not looked at by the general population in a very favorable light, either. Remember the movie, "Old Yeller"? The young man that owned the faithful and protective family dog, Old Yeller had to put him down using his firearm as Old Yeller had gotten rabies from a wild animal. The young man lived on the frontier and life was hard and hard choices had to be made. In our more modern era, hard choices still have to be made, but they just cost a little more. If this young man lived today he would be expected to take his dog to his local vet and Old Yeller would be put down by the vet using lethal injection costing between $50 and $100. Is a bullet to a loved terminally ill pet's brain any more cruel than a sometimes not so quick lethal injection? Many in our country today would say it is extremely cruel and it's currently illegal in many states. So, the young man portrayed in "Old Yeller" would in present day America, be considered a cruel and criminal animal abuser.

My, how are thinking as a people and a country has changed.

RioShooter
October 16, 2006, 07:25 PM
Bottlefeeding is an extremely viable solution, and it also serves to turn what might have been a feral kitten into a very personable and loving cat. Feral or not, kittens tend to attach to whatever's supplying the goods.

This is what my classes did. See above post. I kept the cats, and they are the friendliest cats you would ever meet. I can't keep them off of my lap.

walking arsenal
October 16, 2006, 07:28 PM
The "take them to the shelter" method is all well in good if you dont mind a
2-5 month waiting period and having to pay a fee to drop them off.

Thats the way it works here.

The last stray me and my brother found we tried to drop off at the shelter. They said they'd put us on a list and call us when our slot came up, until then we had to take care of it. They wanted to charge us a drop off fee also, cant remember how much but it was more than i wanted to spend. I gave it to my sister instead.

Sergeant Bob
October 16, 2006, 07:45 PM
He should have caught them and given them to the Biology Lab.

bouis
October 16, 2006, 07:58 PM
I have to say that I find it amusing that, even here, people are so concerned about the welfare of some animals.

You like Fluffy, you don't want anything to happen to him, so when someone else kills a cat you get all worked up. Nevermind the millions put to death every year at public expense in animal shelters (something like 90% of the cats will die, and most that don't are reclaimed by their owners). I kinda understand. I used to get attached to my hens (but they ended up in the pot all the same...).

And of course there's all the animals that die so you can eat -- cattle, chickens, fish, etc., etc. -- and don't forget the billions of rats and mice that are poisoned or shreded alive in crop fields. But nobody cares becuase they don't have to see it until it's packaged at Wal*Mart.

If these cats were brought to a shelter there's a very remote chance one of them might have been adopted, but it would certainly have come at the expense of another kitten. The end result is the same -- dead cats. The only difference is a lot of time and public resources would be expended.

There's nothing more humane about sticking the animals in a cage for months until some taxpayer-fed bureaucrat in a white coat gets around to killing them at my and your expense, than there is with some jerk shooting them with a rifle or drowning them a bucket. The only difference is perception. People are so sheltered these days. Sheesh.

Phenom
October 16, 2006, 08:04 PM
Losing his job and being rediculed was enough. I too have bottle fed kittens. One had a nack of riding on my shoulder:) I've had to put down terminally ill animals and it's probably the hardest thing I've done, surpassing math in every way.

Panthera Tigris
October 16, 2006, 10:06 PM
bouis makes several valid points. My girlfriend however grew up in the ghetto and had to live around rats. I don't think you'll get any sympathy from her over the deaths of any rodents. She started liking snakes the moment she heard they eat mice and rats.

gezzer
October 16, 2006, 10:07 PM
For the animal lovers he should have used the Goverment approved metod. You know the one the BATF uses. They just stomp them with their jump boots.

Feral cats should be removed period. Give them to PETA they kill more cats and kittens than anyone.

DirtyBrad
October 17, 2006, 12:34 AM
Drowning? Yikes. If any of you are looking to take me out, please use a gun. I definitely don't want to drown.

Aguila Blanca
October 17, 2006, 01:59 AM
I am astonished by the number of responses that seem to think what this guy did was okay. In retrospect, though, considering how often posters on this forum advocate "concealed means concealed" in response to questions about "should I carry my gun in places where I am not allowed to carry my gun?" I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

The bottom line is -- this dweeb had a gun on SCHOOL property, and he fired it. The question of whether or not it was moral or ethical to "euthanize" ferel kittens with a gun is really secondary. Despite the fact that the gun-free school zones laws are probably not a good idea (according to US), and possibly contrary to the Constitution (although not "unconstitutional, because the SCOTUS has not ruled them to be so), the fact is this guy was the principal of the school and he broke two laws by having and discharging a firearm on school grounds.

End of discussion -- unless we want to be teaching young kids to be anarchists. Society can't work if each person gets to cherry pick which laws he/she wants to follow. The social contract is that once the majority decide what the laws should be, we all follow them. If they're really horrible laws, it's our responsibility to get them changed, not to ignore them.

.45Guy
October 17, 2006, 05:44 AM
Dennis Leary said it best in regards to peoples' feelings on the killing of animals. More than a little hypocrisy going round...

." Hey, I love the animals too. I love my doggy. He's so cute. My fluffy little dog.. He's so cute- There's the problem. We only want to save the cute animals, don't we? Yeah. Why don't we just have animal auditions. Line 'em up one by one and interview them individually. "What are you?" "I'm an otter." "And what do you do?" "I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands." "You're free to go." "And what are you?" "I'm a cow." "Get in the fu####g truck, ok pal!" "But I'm an animal." "You're a baseball glove! Get on that truck!" "I'm an animal, I have rights!" "Yeah, here's yer fu##ing cousin, get on the fu%$ing truck, pal!" We kill the cows to make jackets out of them and then we kill each other for the jackets we made out of the cows.

gunsmith
October 18, 2006, 04:04 PM
an anti reading this would see that not all gunnies
are willing to illegaly bring a gun to school
to confront and end the terrible danger to school kids lives!
The terrible danger of feral kitties!!!:neener:

If I was a teacher my gun would stay concealed untill some cretin
tried to line up little girls for the slaughter.

Or I would work at a private school that taught gun safety and everybody had a gun & it's no big deal.

I think the people here recognize that the laws stink when it comes to schools and guns & feral cats are a problem.

But now there are at least one thousand new anti gunners because this guy
wanted to kill some kitties.

Common sense seems rare on campus nowadays

jfh
October 18, 2006, 05:38 PM
as the accuracy of the emotional responses to this situation demonstrate.

Let's try it again:

1. The principal did NOT bring a gun to school. The feral mother had been killed in a trap near his residence and he chose to dispatch two nursing kittens who refused to leave the body.

2. His residence was in a district-supplied mobile home, but away from the school campus by, IIRC, some three hundred feet. There was no dispute about his firing a gun at school, in the direction of the school, or during school hours. There were some students still on campus for after-school activities--but how many remain after school in a k-12 district of, I believe, some 240 students?

3. The campus is in a remote area of Northern Minnesota, in a VERY small town. Had he chosen to try to turn them over to a local humane society, not only is the nearest one some distance away, but his experience would have been similar to countertop's experience with his barn cats: If the kittens are to be taken (for adoption) at all, requirements of neutering and getting in line exist.

4. Several people do not differentiate between abandoned pets with litters perhaps one generation removed from domesticity and the problems of feral cats in the wild for several generations.

Some of you may recall the controversy earlier this year in the WI state legislature, when a feral-cat bill was instroduced. If you don't, then a google will suffice to demonstrate that the feral-cat issues in rural areas can be a real problem.

Uncontrolled breeding of domestic cats can result in wildly-varying genetically-based behavior. My current cat (adopted from the Humane society, a neutered male and strictly an inside cat) is the most affectionate cat I have ever had. BUT, his 'hunting instincts' are right below the surface behavior. It is not uncommon for him to be purring--even trilling while being petted--and to spin around and bite, and continue to become more aggressive until contact is broken.

5. Note The principal is a cat lover, and owns two cats (apparently kept at his home in another town).

The various AP edits on this situation indicated that the story was not only the "killing kittens" angle (and on SCHOOL PROPERTY!), but also called out was the fact that 'the district authorities' did not apparently respond 'promptly' to government authorities.

Given the AP's reportorial bias, there seems to be little doubt that this story got some legs simply because they wanted to sensationalize it.

There is no doubt the principal exercised poor judgement is deciding to dispatch these kittens by shooting them, for any number of reasons.

However, the issues involved that make it being a newsworthy story suggest to me that the notoriety and loss of job the principal has experienced far exceeds ANY issues of legality and appropriate sanctions.

I'll be curious to see if there is any continuing reporting on this subject. In the meantime, the comments in this thread do seem to indicate that pro-gun people can be as irrational as antigunnies.

Panthera Tigris
October 18, 2006, 09:11 PM
I'm a cat lover too, but I did just get a thought about this:

We live in a society that lets murderers out of prison because they're too crowded. My ex bro in law molested his own children and got custody of them. Cities like Chicago force people to live there helpless from preying criminals, and countries like England arrest people for defending themselves in their own homes.
Yet, we want to lock someone up for killing two helpless kittens that probably would have died anyway.

What the h*ll is happening to this world?

gezzer
October 19, 2006, 12:00 AM
Easy the MORONS have taken control.

648E
October 19, 2006, 12:00 AM
In MN a CCW permit holder can get written permission from the principal to carry on school property.

Hmmm...

gunsmith
October 19, 2006, 08:43 AM
it's difficult to give kittens to animal control.

I've never encountered that anywhere and I have lived everywhere....well almost.

So even in this rural area, it seems as if his community does not approve of
shooting kittens...

I bet you the guy now wishes he had at least tried to get animal control....

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/chriskarma/dedhorse2.gif

Gunfire
October 19, 2006, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by 648E

In MN a CCW permit holder can get written permission from the principal to carry on school property.

Hmmm...

Really? Because he would still be in violation of fed law. The felony they mentioned. Now if we could just get rid of the federal 'gun free school zone act' which has been ruled unconstitutional once already in approx. 1994 but rewritten in 95 to link guns to school property to interstate commerce. Same old story. Now here's the stretch, first being ruled against because guns don't have anything to do with school property nationally, which they don't. Then the exact same law rewritten with that little factitious link to affecting interstate commerce included. TFB, the SC can't see past their belly to see the piss running down their leg from a Congress that's really just laughing at them with their (relatively) newly discovered infinite powers. What some people think is good for society really isn't so good for the 'people'. Then a congressional amendment slipped through at the last minute tacked onto a must-pass appropriations bill saying that because the SC affects interstate commerce from this day forward they must get permission from Congress before they hear and rule on a case and they couldn't strike it down because of their stupid, blind commitment to staris decisis instead of to the Constitution. Wrap it up, throw it in the oven, bake it well done and you have a one size fits all society perfect for those that have a need to save the world.

Sawdust
October 19, 2006, 12:04 PM
What federal law prohibits CCW on school property?

Cite, please.

Sawdust

Gunfire
October 19, 2006, 12:25 PM
"Gun Free School Zones Amendment".

With CWP you may only pick up and drop off students. It doesn't specify if you can get out of your vehicle but I wouldn't chance it.

halvey
October 19, 2006, 12:27 PM
why not just call animal control?
INDUS, Minn. This is how animals are taken care of in rural areas. Like it or not, it's how it's done. I know a guy who was left with 20+ cats when he bought his house years ago. Tried to place them, but only could place a couple. Get used it guys, America is bigger than you think.

Shooting them on public property is another issue however.

Gunfire
October 19, 2006, 12:31 PM
FACT SHEET ON GUN-FREE ZONES ACT: MYTH VS. REALITY (http://www.gunowners.org/fs9611.htm)

gunsmith
October 19, 2006, 05:45 PM
The only thing I've seen shot at were feral dogs chasing a herd of sheep.
If "rural" people are just fine with shooting kittens then why is this even in the news???
I spend months at a time in northern NV you cant get more rural!
loose cats get eaten by coyote, feral cats are more of a problem in SF
then Reno, norcal northern nv.
Sure some rural people will kill cats/kittens and others will do the right thing.

got cope?
October 19, 2006, 08:30 PM
Everytime you call a magazine a "clip" God kills a kitten.

This guy was just carrying out the work for God, and he was ordered to kill two.

ROFL :neener:

Aguila Blanca
October 19, 2006, 08:45 PM
What the h*ll is happening to this world?
The inmates are running the asylum.






Next question ...

gunsmith
October 23, 2006, 03:02 AM
got cope

Panthera Tigris
October 23, 2006, 03:18 AM
Scientologists must be controlling everything now!

gunsmith
October 23, 2006, 03:30 AM
ok?

carpettbaggerr
October 23, 2006, 07:09 AM
Society can't work if each person gets to cherry pick which laws he/she wants to follow. The social contract is that once the majority decide what the laws should be, we all follow them. If they're really horrible laws, it's our responsibility to get them changed, not to ignore them.Tell that to Harriet Tubman. And Rosa Parks.

Ryder
October 23, 2006, 07:56 AM
Too bad the guy was looking at this from a humane perspective instead of a human perspective. Now every do-gooder on the planet thinks they can abuse him. :barf:

I've saved and killed feral kittens in the past. It's situational and I felt finding them made that my decision. Looks like letting them starve to death has just become my preferred option.

gunsmith
October 31, 2006, 05:08 AM
Looks like letting them starve to death has just become my preferred option.

Yup, if the only choice is shooting them on school grounds or letting them starve, I would choose starvation for them rather then give up RKBA.

I am willing to bet you, he wished he had come up with a viable solution rather then the shoot or starve solution.

He didn't lack options, he lacked imagination.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/chriskarma/viewphoto.jpg

Y.T.
October 31, 2006, 07:46 AM
Lack of imagination...
Dreadful.

What about the time honored method of taking leather gloves and breaking their spines ? Or strangulation ? Setting aflame? Chlorine gas? Carbon monoxide poisoning?
Hydrogen cyanide? Crossbow? Tying them up and subjecting them to a clockwork orange style day long viewing of political campaign ads (though that is definitely cruel and unusal).

roo_ster
October 31, 2006, 02:01 PM
Note to Self:
Dispose of found feral kittens with a blow to the head with a shovel so the pants-wetting crowd can avoid using another Depends.

jfh
October 31, 2006, 05:02 PM
FYI...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=231225

As you can see, this principal is being charged with felony gun possession.

However, there is a greater context than was originally noted--seems he was having a bad odor day.

gunsmith
November 1, 2006, 04:59 AM
so help me out , ok? http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/chriskarma/viewphoto.jpg

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