[arinvolvo]

I hear a lot of brands dropped around here...Glock, Sig, Beretta, Kimber etc....

But I dont think I have seen a thread lately regarding any of the HK pistol lineup.

Do people here own HKs? I have shot the USP, and while it is a fine weapon, I was not enamoured by it...Something about the ergonomics or pointability of it...not pleasing to me...

But I am sure there are plenty of HK fans out there...I just havent heard much from them at this forum.

So, HK owners, sound off....show me something cool about your HK...or not...

[critter]

I have an H&K P7 M8. It is a very unique and interesting gun. For me, it has a very high 'pointability' factor, is completely ambidexterous, very fast on the reload-get-back-in-action, completely safe to carry, etc. The only down side that bothers me is the P series of H&K's are very pricey! Otherwise, I would have a P10 AND a P13 also!

[XavierBreath]

My carry gun is a USPc in .40S&W. Bedside gun is a USPf in .40S&W. It's the all around best pistol for me. YRMV.

[KMKeller]

I have two. My carry weapon is an HK USP .45 Compact, and I have an HK USP .45 Tactical. You don't hear a lot around here anymore due mainly to the fact that most HK threads get hijacked by loons who assume that if you pay $700 for an HK, you're a tactical poseur with a bad case of SpecOps envy. Most of us have frankly gotten tired of the ceaseless attacks.

[No4Mk1]

Amen to what KMKeller said. I carry a USP9f when I am able to dress casually (read untucked shirt, mostly Friday-Sunday). I am very fond of my USP.

[Tamara]

While the USP series doesn't really do anything for me, I am very fond of my P7M8...

[cslinger]

HK P7M8 owner here. The gun is in a class all it's own, period.

This from self proclaimed SIG-A-HOLIC.

USPs are nice but I think you can get a better or equal gun much cheaper.

Chris.

[WhoKnowsWho]

Have a USP40, like it a lot.

[OF]

My USP40f is an amazing gun. It never stops. By far the most reliable pistol I've ever used and I hardly ever clean the thing. It gets abused and is poorly maintained. My 'maintenance' consists of field stripping and CLP when the slide starts to visibly slow down during the recoil cycle. :) It runs and runs. Love it.

- Gabe

[Bowlcut]

Having shot a USP and a P7 M8....I like the p7 alot better. USP's are nice...but i like the feel of the p7 alot better. Plus its cool cause its unique. Never shot the USP tatical....but im not overly impressed with a USP.

[Boats]

As a former owner, (USPc .45 variant 9) allow me to quote myself, (polished a little), as to what I despised almost as much as the trigger of my USP--the mentality of the ownership experience. You'd have a hard time finding a larger proportion of ninja and operator wannabes in an ownership group than with that crowd--not that there is anything wrong with that.:D

It's a hot night. The mind races. A 17 hour flight to La Paz is etched in red traces on my eyeballs. I had packed my HK USP .40S&W with its captured recoil buffer system and Peters Stahlish lock up. I had two of its priceless magazines in a futuristic custom Bladetech retention system. Sweat trickles down the small of my back, saturating my black lock-knit HK polo shirt and threatens to soak my Royal Robbins Khaki travel pants. Good thing I am carrying strong-side rather than the tactically incorrect small-of-back. My feet feel resilient in my Himalayan walking shoes. I thumb the decocker--or is it the safety? I can never tell and in the thin air I vow once again to never admit to anyone it might bother me.

Against a haze of air starved bugs and the cacaphony of a strange tongue clawing its way into the oxygenless atmosphere, I feel the Hostile Environment finish on the lever of the USP where I have it hidden from prying eyes. I try to reassure myself about my beyond top secret assignment. I feel the stippled black polymer--never call it plastic--and it feels like money--or at least like a credit card chewed upon by a teething kitten.

Nevertheless I feel better now. If I ever have to shoot from the bowels of an outhouse, the guts of a fish processing ship, Pamela Anderson's boudoir--any repellant place at all--I have been reassured by the Company and literally thousands of internet street pros that I carry the final say in handguns. Tension is in the air, maybe I will torture my pistol before the dawn breaks. Maybe I will be tortured myself. . . .

Thirty hours later, lost near the Rio Camblaya following the coup attempt, a welcoming smile. Thank God she spotted the epaulettes on the Norwegian ice-fishing vest concealing my USP. I climb aboard the helo on my way to my next exotic assignment, my HK having proven itself in "combat" once again without ever firing a shot in anger. . . .

The World of Compromise Uncompromisingly cries out to my inner poseur. . . beckoning to me to get onto the internet and tell the rest of the inferior shooting world about the superiority of my sidearm and myself.
:evil:

[Tamara]

Gosh, KMKeller, are you psychic or something? :eek:



;)

[DonGlock26]

Boats, you read too much Chuck Taylor. :D

[Boats]

If the crepe soled tactical boot fits. . . .:neener:

If there weren't an element of truth to the poseur charge, it wouldn't stick. All one need do is spend a few days at the non-ironically named HKPro to get the flavor of the atmosphere. Some of the stuff posted there is too funny to be anything but fiction.:D

[larryw]

Reason you don't read about the USP is because so few have so little to complain about them. The gun works. Period

Now, if you'll excuse me, its Mall Ninja duty time. :rolleyes:

[10-Ring]

I've been waving the HK banner where ever I can :D For me, they work...P7M8 or USP. There's a caliber & size to fit all occassions!

Love'em, Leave'em...don't care, use what works for you

[caz223]

Guns are kinda like internal organs.
You never really pay that much attention to them, until they give you trouble.
My USPc .45 is the most accurate, trouble free gun I've ever owned.
I talk about my CZs more, trying to master the occasional hiccup, and try to find a load that they will shoot better, etc...

[KMKeller]

Tam,

I must be... here we go again.

boats, regarding the tactical poseur statement. The only time I've ever heard it is from a few very select 1911 bigots on this particular board. You don't know me, have never met me and know zero about me, so I'll thank you to keep your crass characterizations to yourself. That you repeat it so much, doesn't make it true and frankly I'm a little sick of being labeled by you.

Of all the people I know who own weapons, USPs included, not a single one resembles in any way what you claim all us USP owners to be, except Skunk and he's definitely the tongue-in-cheek poster boy.

Quite the contrary, the only people I've met who resemble evangelical, proselytizing zealots are you and a few of your 1911 bigots.

In fact, I have seen no other group of people so adamantly try to tear down a particular brand, make or model of weapon anywhere on any board.

Your opinion is hereby relegated to where it rightly belongs.

:rolleyes:

[Skunkabilly]

Boats:
>> Sweat trickles down the small of my back, saturating my black lock-knit HK polo shirt and threatens to soak my Royal Robbins Khaki travel pants.

LOL!!!! :o

Have had 2 USPs, sold one and selling the other one...don't care for them. As tempted as I was/am by the USP9C, it'll never be a P7M8....

[Boats]

I was going to just say my piece and let it drop, but your cute pre-emptive strike now backed by reality denial merits a response.

boats, regarding the tactical poseur statement. The only time I've ever heard it is from a few very select 1911 bigots on this particular board.

Then you must not get around much. There is nothing more amusing in my firearms experience on the internet than to watch Glock, SIG and HK owners snipe at one another all taking and giving occasional pot-shots from and to Walther owners. Yes, it is just 1911 owners mocking a $700 plastic pistol that doesn't add anything but hype to the market. I own more than 1911s so my "bigotry" such as it is, must stem from owning several types of pistols. Heck, having had an HK once, maybe I am really engaged in a bit of self-loathing.:rolleyes:

You don't know me, have never met me and know zero about me, so I'll thank you to keep your crass characterizations to yourself. That you repeat it so much, doesn't make it true and frankly I'm a little sick of being labeled by you.

I don't recall my personal attack on you via my relating of what I, and many others, find to be an amusing stereotype of HK owners in general. Jeez, I handle all of the "dinosaur" and "granpa shooter" crap from all quarters with equanimity. I once had a Glock owner sniff at one of my 1911s at the range, calling it "the official pistol of Fred Flintstone." I thought that was funny.

Of all the people I know who own weapons, USPs included, not a single one resembles in any way what you claim all us USP owners to be, except Skunk and he's definitely the tongue-in-cheek poster boy.

Get yerself on over to HKPro then and see for yourself whence the stereotype comes. The obsession with suppression, the sifting and resifting of what special forces units issue HKs and why the rest are too stupid to adopt, the cries about being trumped in the plastic firearms market by Glock, the pedantic fawning over various HK subguns 99.9% of them will never touch, let alone own, the breathlessness over the reports of performance by German Combat Divers,:rolleyes: the daresay I, elitist opinioneering against things not HK. Yep, none of that exists except in some alternate reality I know and you are not privy to.:scrutiny:

Quite the contrary, the only people I've met who resemble evangelical, proselytizing zealots are you and a few of your 1911 bigots.

Awwww. Search my posts here. You will find I have endorsed or recommended many pistols besides the 1911. In fact, I don't remember last when I advised anyone to buy a 1911. Why? I own other pistols than the 1911 and can see their merits believe it or not. I have even confessed to wanting an HK P7M13 if the mag ban dies.:what: I do advise people not to overpay for marketing hype whether it comes from Germany or a semi-custom 1911 shop here in the states. The P7 is iconic and unique. The USP is for the tactical Walter Mittys who are keen to overpay for something neither unique or special.

In fact, I have seen no other group of people so adamantly try to tear down a particular brand, make or model of weapon anywhere on any board.

Then, like I said, you don't get around much.

SNIP

[KMKeller]

:rolleyes:

[caz223]

THIS is basically what happens whenever somebody asks about HKs.
Grown men start acting like children.

[fatboyclone]

and this is, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason HK rarely comes up on this board. :( :(

[Darrin]

My Dad can beat up your Dad......

[Skunkabilly]

I get a kick out of people getting picked on because they want an HK. Isn't it obvious they're looking for a cock and lock polymer service pistol?

I like my USPs but can't shoot them as well as my Beretta or P7. No more USPs for me.

[CZ-75]

... The World of Compromise Uncompromisingly cries out to my inner poseur. . . beckoning to me to get onto the internet and tell the rest of the inferior shooting world about the superiority of my sidearm and myself.

:D


boats, regarding the tactical poseur statement. The only time I've ever heard it is from a few very select 1911 bigots on this particular board. You don't know me, have never met me and know zero about me, so I'll thank you to keep your crass characterizations to yourself.

:rolleyes:

Feeling threatened?

[KMKeller]

Nope. Just tired of the endless lines of horsecrap focused on the owners of one particular line of pistol by one particular group of people.

[Bobarino]

Arinvolvo,

and just like that, the reason for lack of H&K posts rears its ugly head. KMKeller has is right on the nose. my $700 plastic pistol makes me a tactical poseurs. and at least one person ALWAYS makes sure they tell me so. its over hyped, its over priced, its not THAT good, blah, blah, blah.

i'm a subscriber and poster on HKPRO also, and the people there are no different than the people here on THR. in fact i see a few other people that post in both places. non of whom are SWAT team wanna-be's. all of whom just enjoy a certain type of weapon.

H&K's are good, quality and yes expensive pistols. so are Sigs, and a host of others. i really don't know why HK and their owners get the cold shoulder. there is no GOOD reason other than people being closed minded. if one doesn't like them, fine. you don't have to. i don't preach HK as being the worlds best gun. its my favorite and i'll let you know that, but i certainly don't bash 1911's and Glocks just because i don't care for either one.

everyone has the right to express their opinions though, and you know what they say about opinions. "opinions are like a**h***s, everybody has one and their ususally full of ****"

Bobby

[gudel]

i have a USP. nobody talks about it. this is a good thing because i have not seen problems with finish/reliability etc. either that, it's so expensive nobody really can afford it. either way, it makes HK very unique weapons.

people trash HK maybe because it's so expensive, they can't afford to buy it. instead, they talk bad about it. it's just simply jealousy. as far as quality, this is a very nice gun. take that from the person who actually owns the gun, not just heard from other people.

[KMKeller]

Look, my issue is this. Criticize the guns, I don't care and frankly that's your perogative. That's what this board is for, discussing the pros and cons of the firearms, their benefits and such.

But that's not what's taking place here is it? What we're talking about here is running down the people who own HKs based on nothing other than the fact that they chose to purchase a specific weapon. And quite frankly I don't make such assumptions about others and I don't much care to have others make such assumptions about me.

[Darrin]

In all seriousness, I thought the "hype" was over Glocks.

[larryw]

Clock is ticking: the last time someone started a thread just to bash some members of THR for their choice in firearms, it got shut down pretty quick. Tick-tock.

[Darrin]

5........

4.....

3...

:D

[cslinger]

It's no different then Ford or Chevy......Porsche or Ferrari........AMD or INTEL.....and the list goes on.

The fact is we have so many excellent products to choose from these day that the real complaints tend to be specific to an individual or very small in number.

HKs are great guns. Pricy yes, but great guns.
SIGS are great guns (Better then HK but I digress:scrutiny: ) Also pricy.
Glocks are great guns......
Springfield makes great guns.........
Ruger makes great guns...............................


All the big name players make great guns that have pros and cons that either endear or demonize themselves to various users.

I don't care for Glocks Safe Action Trigger system. I still think Glocks are some of the best combat guns around.

I really like the control and triggers on SIGs but there is something to a nice 1911 too.

The reason we don't agree is because none of these guns SUCK. We all tend to agree that Ravins and Lorcins are bad.....why? Because they actually do suck.

I personally think HK USPs are over priced but I happen to own a SIG 220 Stainless and a HK P7. Those were not overpriced at all no sir not one bit.:rolleyes:

There is no reason to get into a hissy over my gun is better than your gun. Every brand has it's tactical posers. HK is seen that way because of their marketing which has been brilliant and sold alot of product for them too.

Can't we all just get along...........ducks for cover grabs closest uber tactical overpriced handgun he can get his hands on.....oooo a P7.

Chris

[Tamara]

After careful thought, I have to point out that the post from Mssr. Boats (though sorely lacking in timing) was #1) Funny, and #2) Not necessarily directed at you or any other particular USP owner.

I have heard plenty of USP owners extolling the Ultimate Uncompromising Tacticality of their pistols versus those cheapo Brand-X guns (Glocks) or fragile unreliable antiques (1911's) over the years. Frequently from folks whose "Hostile Environment" finish gets exposed to an environment no more "Hostile" than that found in their range bag between the trunk of their car and the lanes of the Indoor Pistol Palace. "Ain't you gonna tote that USP?"
"What?!? Do you know how much this thing cost? It's my baby!"
"So? It's a plastic service pistol, not some rare, one-of-four-built-behind-the-iron-curtain, Einschleimer Blastopistole."

Of course, then you have the "Glock: Perfection" crowd, who loudly proclaim that not only can their pet pistol be run over with a truck, but "It's the preferred choice of every cop between Albaquerque and Ulan Bator."
"Are you a cop?"
"No, but I do have a police scanner in my house..."

Lastly, you have the 1911 fiends, who believe that the design for the One True Pistol was handed down to John Moses Browning by God, etched on stone tablets.
"Robby Leatham is winning matches with this 2000-year-old design to this very day!" (This is usually stated by someone who has never even watched an IPSC match, let alone participated in one...)




Folks, lighten the heck up: These are pistols, not religious denominations. If you're looking for the one true path to enlightenment between the covers of American Handgunner, then you are setting yourself up to be sorely disappointed. :scrutiny:

[cslinger]

If you're looking for the one true path to enlightenment between the covers of American Handgunner, then you are setting yourself up to be sorely disappointed.

Not to mention that it would be mighty boring. I mean I am one of those crazy gun owners who likes both semi-autos and GASP!!! outdated, outmoded, obsolete revolvers. For that matter I have an evil black rifle or two along side of some rifles with.....now sit down Skunk, real wood on them.:D

Chris

[arinvolvo]

Quote:

"Clock is ticking: the last time someone started a thread just to bash some members of THR for their choice in firearms, it got shut down pretty quick. Tick-tock."


LarryW....I am sorry that you think this thread was designed to bash HK....I started this thread with no intent of that at all...I just was wondering why I never hear anyone mention anything about their USPs or the cool new tac light they got for their HK...

I do hear about P7s every once in a while, but the mention of other HK firearms is seldom heard....It was just a pang of curiosity that I had...

And I have nothing against HK at all....I think they are fine weapons, probably some of the finest...They are not my style, but I am in no way bashing them, or anyone that owns one.

However, I now see why the subject matter is not brought up...people fight like girls about it...so naive am I, I havent been on thos board THAT long...I am sure I still have much more to learn.

[CZ-75]

I personally think HK USPs are over priced


I think you hit it.

There are other guns out there, of similar construction, that are nearly as good for less money. There are other guns out there that are as good for similar money that aren't made of plastic. Plastic itself isn't the problem, but the concept behind using plastic - cost savings.

Best I can figure is that snob appeal plays a part in the decision to spend $700 or so on a plastic frame gun. It isn't like you're getting a work of art or fine craftsmanship with polymer-frame pistols, so the justification for a higher price point seems lacking, particularly when SIG can make an all-metal gun of equal or better quality for roughly the same price.

I'll probably buy an Expert one of these days, but I know that I am paying for a name as much as performance. That gets harder to justify as you go down the model line toward more pedestrian HK offerings. Closest thing I can think of like it is the fools who buy a Civic-size Mercedes C-class so they can drive a with three-pointed star on the hood for around $35K, despite the fact the Honda would provide greater reliability for half the price and there are better performing, more reliable cars in the same price range.

[Tamara]

Closest thing I can think of like it is the fools who buy a Civic-size Mercedes C-class so they can drive a with three-pointed star on the hood for around $35K, despite the fact the Honda would provide greater reliability for half the price and there are better performing, more reliable cars in the same price range.

Not the best of comparisons. "Luxury", "Quality", and "Size" are not synonymous. ;)

[caz223]

One of the reasons that H&Ks are expensive has a lot to do with import taxes.
Sigs are (For the most part) assembled in the US by foreign made parts. (Frames on sig pros are made in switzerland.)
They ship the parts over, declare the wholesale value of the parts, assemble them here, and sell them cheaper.
They are, of course fine weapons. I have a sig pro, and it is certainly a good example of craftsmanship and engineering.
The H&Ks are currently designed, assembled, and tested in Germany, and shipped, as a finished product, to the US.
As a result, they carry a much higher import tax.

The problem is, that isn't the only reason.

[KMKeller]

Tam,

When considering this particular thread, you're correct. But when considering that everytime an HK thread is started, the same tripe shows, the historical content is somewhat different.

Again, I don't make broad characterizations and I don't expect them from others. I don't claim that women who wear tight clothes are sluts, I don't claim that african americans are rapists and drug dealers and I don't claim that people who shoot 1911s are dinosaurs. Those types of broad characterizations are beneath me and I was taught to show people common respect. HK owners are tactical poseurs is just such a broad characterization.

[gudel]

why is it that people bitch about HK's prices?
i don't hear no one griping about mercedez benz S600 series prices or never heard people complaining how SIG is expensive in the $600 - $700 range either.

the bottom line: if you can't afford it because it's expensive, don't buy it, and don't complain why it's so expensive.

[DrDremel]

Having owned an HK USP, HK91, and fired at least 3000 rounds from an MP5, I feel I can talk about them semi-objectively. HK firearms derive a lot of their price form exchange rates. Also the 89 and 94 bans pushed the prices on these firearms up due to a false rarity. This has been around long enough that many of the younger shooters equate a $2000+ rifle to mean that they must be the best because they are commanding such a high price. Then those same shooters surmise that if their rifles are so good then the handguns must also make you a tactical ninja. That explains the Ninja wannabee’s obsession with HK products. It seems to have infected the police as well. If a big department such as LA or NY adopts a firearm, all the little Barney Fifes want to have the same stuff. It is almost self promoting. Kind of like the rarity of diamaonds.

There are also shooters that buy their firearms because they like that particular model. This tends to be more with HK pistols due to their non-banned status. Sure there are still some that worship only the pistols but for the most part they are the exception. The non-ninja tactical warrior pistol shooters can be broken down even more.

The USP crown usually like the cocked and locked feature but want a polymer pistol. They are also in large part 1911a1 fans. They want a light, pistol but like the similarity to the 1911 controls.

The P series squeeze cockers. These are very unique firearms. Usually people either hate them or love them. Some that love then claim them to be the best pistol ever designed. Most of the rest, like them. Of those that don’t like them, some hate them, others simply don’t like the totally different workings. Similar to those that don’t like Sigs simply because the levers are backward from all other designs.

HK products are usually good, although in my mind over priced. By the way, I fall into the 1911 fan (but not a 1911 is better than anything ever produced and everything that ever will be type of guy) that likes the similarity of the USP controls. I don’t hate the P series squeeze cockers but don’t like the totally different feel. I also dislike SIGs for the same reason, but feel that both are very good designs. My only gripe with the USP series is the polygon rifling which does not work well with lead bullets.

The USP handguns are very reliable, being one of the handguns that you can’t go wrong with.

There are also those that like the HK rifles without being Tactical Ninja Cammando Wariors. They tend to be interested in the Cetme and HK clones and want to actually fire their rifles, something less and less owners of these weapons like to do.

I also think that many of the HK commando wanabees are into collecting Airsoft guns as well. That is a different topc that I have yet to understand, A BB replica of a real gun that cost more than most real guns. And it isn’t even real BB gun as the BBs are plastic.

Next time I’ll get into the holy Glock.

By the way, half of this is a joke, but then again we all know that HK owners can't take a joke, right?

[Obiwan]

I own a 45 compact that I bought for no better reason than...I didn't have one! (happens to me a lot)

I am still forming an opinion, but so far do not believe it is the ultimate pistol....so far I like my 1911 and my G36 better.

I think some of the "Mall-Ninja" thinking is right on...but like everyhting else...does not apply to everyone.

Or maybe it is that cool threaded barrel they have on the tactical...or is it the expert...I forget.

[Spark]

Bingo Dr!

You've got two kinds of HK owner - those who care about the form, exemplified by the Mall Ninja wannabe tactical Tactical TACTICAL type, and those who care about the function.

The Ninja's would buy them if they were twice as expensive (hence the proliferation of the airsofts).

The functioners are the ones you see carrying USPs daily - and are just as devout as the 1911 / Glock junkies. They want a pistol that works how they want, period, and they are willing to pay for that function and no more (or they'd be buying 1911's from race gun shops). They don't care about form - they'd abandon the USP tomorrow if something better came along.

As said previously, price is the big barrier on people buying HK's. That's going to be eliminated soon. Then watch out.

Kevin

[gbelleh]

I own many makes of guns. I don't care what anyone says about them, they each fulfill a specific need for me personally.

Of all the guns I own, I currently use a USP .45 Compact as my home defense pistol. I chose this particular weapon to defend myself because I shoot it extremely well and I trust its reliability and effectiveness. I paid over $700 for it, and to me it was money well spent. That's all that matters.

Go ahead and call me a poseur if you want to.

The fanboy syndrome seems to be deeply rooted in the human psyche. Whether the topic is cars, guns, video game systems, computers, religion, etc., etc. Some people just need to believe that their particular choice is "best" and any other choice is inferior.

[Wildalaska]

I own an HK P7 (no not those Johnny come lately M8s which are simply NJ state Police modified clones of a real HK squueeze cocker), Colt 1911, BHP, Walther P99, Glock, S&W

Why should we attack each others choices of the above, when we can poke fun at Bersas, Ravens, Dalys, FEGs, Makorovs etc instead

WildmygunsbiggerthanyoursisAlaska

[Gewehr98]

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear it was part of an autobiography by our own HK poster (poseur?) child, Skunkabilly! :D (Who I might add, is very good at making fun of himself, he needs no assistance from others)

http://www.skunkabilly.com/images/tactical_poser.jpg

[Boats]

Nah, he's not J. Peterman enough, no Norwegian Ice Fishing Vest.:D

[Skunkabilly]

Boats,

Who's J Peterperson?

[Tamara]

Heh.

I made the mistake once of mentioning that I thought USP's were overpriced to a serously hardcore HK fanboy. He flew into a sputtering rage about how "just because you can't afford them doesn't mean that anyone who buys one can't appreciate a fine pistol!"

As I was wiping his spray off my face, I didn't have the heart to tell him that the MSRP of the pistol on my hip would handily cover a Mark 23 and a couple of cases of hardball for practice. Apparently he missed the key word: I think they're steep for plastic guns. If you don't, then glory in your spark, man; buy what you like. Ain't free enterprise grand? (He'd probably die if he knew I swapped a USP9c for a SIG P232... ;) )

Like I said; dude, they're just guns, not lifestyle choices. :D

[PakWaan]

You guys have got to stop..... I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type....... thanks for making the evening a little lighter.:p

[incursion]

Boat, your Seinfeld reference was hillarious. I don't care for the USP or P9S series either, but I love the P7 series.

[OF]

I paid $425 for my USP. Used. It had, maybe, 50 rounds through it when I bought it.

Works for me.

- Gabe

[echo3mike]

I'm just as pleased as punch about mine...USP9, $525 used. 'Bout as much as the P228 that I later sold to finance a rifle purchase. Just couldn't part with the HK.

http://photos.imageevent.com/echo3mike/inbox/websize/USPX9F.jpg

My first handgun and ironically the mechanism by which I found The Firing Line and, subsequently, THR.

Now if I could only scrape up the coin for a P7 to keep it company...

S.

[Tamara]

Hey, ya' know what's funny? Browning High Powers and CZ-75's just leave me cold, too. I know they're fine guns and all, but different strokes for different folks... ;)

[Sean Smith]

In the words of The Bard, "Lighten up, Frances." :neener:

[gudel]

all these people are bagging on HK owners as "tactical poseurs". that's a lame argument. what if i say, glock owners don't really own a gun, but they sure do own plastic toy gun. this is not a very good argument since the HK is too made out of plastic frame.

so, quit it people, we're not tactical poseus, we, the HK owners, just have a refine taste in selecting our firearms.

[Boats]

Skunkabilly wrote:
Who's J Peterperson?

:rolleyes: Now I am dating myself just a little. Elaine on Seinfeld, IMNSHO, the best sitcom of the past quarter century, used to work, among other places, as an editor of the J. Peterman Catalog, famous for its fantastically described high-end products, each with its own lengthy "journal" entry describing it perfoming in some imagined scene.

In one of my favorite scenes from season eight of the show, entitled "Fatigues," Elaine is called upon to fire a wierdo named Eddie from the mailroom. He shows up in her office in full fatigues, complete with a voice like a burned out R. Lee Ermy. Intimidated by his appearance, she promotes him out of the mailroom and into a spot as a copywriter. Here is the script excerpt I play homage to in this thread, and which many humorless readers failed to get:

Elaine is wrapping up a meeting at Peterman's.

Elaine: That's good work, guys. That ought to do it for today.

Eddie: Wait. You didn't ask me about my ideas.

Elaine: Oh, Eddie, well it's your first day.

Eddie: I'm ready.

Elaine: Oh, okay.

Eddie (reading): It's a hot night. The mind races. You think about your knife; the only friend who hasn't betrayed you, the only friend who won't be dead by sun up. Sleep tight, mates, in your quilted Chambray nightshirts.

It's an awesome scene. Later it is followed by another "writing" session:

Elaine and Eddie Sherman are alone in the office working on writing copy.

Eddie: Hey, I think I got something here. The Bengalese Galoshes.

Elaine: Oh?

Eddie (reading): It's tough keeping your feet dry when you're kicking in a skull.

Elaine: You know, Eddie, that might be just a tad harsh for womenswear.

Eddie: Well, I'm not married to it.

Elaine. Oh. Well, um, in that case why don't we take the phrase, "kicking in a skull" and we tweak it, you know, just a hair, to something like, what, like "strolling through a dewy meadow"?

Eddie: Dewy meadow.

This episode also has a hilarious subplot wherein Kramer "drafts" George's father to cook for "Jewish Singles Night" despite the horror of having food poisoned his unit in Korea, which ended his cooking days. Of course he has a flashback at the dinner when a guest chokes.

Oh well.

[Tamara]

so, quit it people, we're not tactical poseus, we, the HK owners, just have a refine taste in selecting our firearms.

That's right! I'm an HK owner (P7M8 and HK91) and I have a refined taste in selecting my handbuilt 1911's and vintage Smith & Wesson revolvers. :D

Sorry! Couldn't resist! ;)

[HKcenterMass]

Just let it roll, the HK is as good or better than ang gun out there, if some HK guys fantasize about "tactiacal yadda yadda" so be it, glock guys dream of their pistpls not KB-ing, 1911 guys dream of running through no mans land in WW1, while clearing that stove pipe or double feed just in time to pop the bad guy... that, or they dream of their 1911 being as good as the USP. Have a nice day. :neener:

[Mike Irwin]

As far as I'm concerned, HK still has to say a couple hundred thousand Hail Marys to atone for the VP-70.

And $700 for a black plastic pistol?

Christ, I guess that makes me a poverty poseur for paying $300 for the s&W Model 58 that's lying on my desktop right now, or $300 for the S&W Model 042 that's in my front pocket.

:rolleyes:


Hey Kirk, when are you coming North again?

I wanna watch you pose while you shoot your HK. I'll even take pictures and post them here. :D

[KMKeller]

No deal Mike. I'd have to spend all sorts of money on black nylon gear and I'd rather spend it on a custom pistol from a real pistolsmith like Larry Vickers, not a 1911 Poseur like Dane Burns... Oops! That's a different argument isn't it!

Seriously though, I'm looking at spending a day or so up yonder next month. Not on business, but rather on social calls. You up for a shoot?

[Tamara]

If the frame and slide aren't buffed from unobtainium bar stock by Tibetan virgins using sandpaper made from the volcanic sand of Mount Etna harvested under a full moon, then obviously it's a 1911 poseur pistol. ;)

[KMKeller]

Unobtainium? Old crap with inherent grain issues...

[XavierBreath]

I own two USPs, a fullsize and a compact. Each was a little over $500. Fullsize was used, the compact new. The compact is my carry weapon, the fullsize is my house gun. Never shot a P series, although I have a feeling I wouldn't really like it.

I've been looking at the 1911s, Kimbers in particular. Nice guns, especiually the black ones with rosewood grips, but a bit rich for my blood. In the end all that matters is reliability and accuracy. Since I'm only a person who carries for self protection and a recreational shooter, not a professional or even amatuer competitive shooter, I just can't see the $700 and up price tag for the 1911 type weapons, at least for me.

I note that Kimber is putting out the polymer framed Ten Series with a MSRP of $770-$1039. So what was that about polymer framed pistols being overpriced?

I agree with the previous posters, I seldom talk HK outside of the HKPro boards because of the rush to judgement that many do as soon as HK is brought up.

[KMKeller]

Xavierbreath - I had one of those overpriced Kimbers with three hicaps. Dang thing would only feed ball ammo, and that only after I had the feed ramp polished... Imagine that! But it now rests in the capable hands of Larry Correia who uses it in his 3-gun matches and has had nary a lick of trouble.

[Tamara]

I note that Kimber is putting out the polymer framed Ten Series with a MSRP of $770-$1039. So what was that about polymer framed pistols being overpriced?

Exactly. Did some guy at Bul pop those things out of the mold lovingly by hand or what? ;)

[sm]

Ok I admit, I'm not as learned as some. My experience with HK is with some LEO that used a private range, I assisted with training, and that was the 'issued' gun.

I believe in gun fit, reliability. If -n- you gots the $ and it fits the criteria...

But hey, I shoot 1911's and like K frames. I mean I still fix biscuits from scratch...ok ok I finally went to using Bisquick...still hate canned biscuits...my only " black polymer gun" is a ( gasp) Keltec ...but I still enjoy shooting a $179 model 10...but it fits and I hit.

[agentwithrow]

wow, I almost hate to mention my USP expert being my favorite pistol... I had no idea someone would bash you for it and preach to you about some other .45 pistol, when they don't even know I have 3 of them in a safe too. I love 1911's done right, I love revolvers of big caliber, and why not a good polymer pistol as well?

Hey since when in a free country is it wrong to wanna do something you like, even if its SWAT related. If I wanna bang a ruger single six in my undies with feathers on my head singing Eminem I will. If someone's a tactical guy that means he's a lesser shooter than another? Damn, you sure have some devine judgment that I don't have.

Oh and I think people buying service pistols are not all people trying to be SEALs, It comforts me to know that a Law enforcement agency, or a Military unit trust and uses a weapon I have. (no low bidder comments guys) If it last rugged wear and use they give it, then the little use I give it shouldn't phaze it.

and how bout them Hi-points huh?

[CZ-75]

"Luxury", "Quality", and "Size" are not synonymous.

I can see "luxury."

Where did you get "Quality"?

M-B ranks behind Opel in homemarket comparisons (neither does it do that well over here, from JD Powers info) and Honda builds their cars to the tightest tolerances of any car manufacturer. Check the huge panel gaps on an M-B sometime. BMW, just to throw in a marque you're familiar with, has pretty average to below-average reliability, save the 3-series, something few Honda products will ever suffer. Or that Car and Driver's BMW M3, which revs as high as the average Honda VTEC, slurps down numerous quarts of 10W-60 synthetic at $14 per, over ~30K miles, unlike a Honda (and they don't need oil that you can only buy from the dealer to do it). That wasn't including the probs w/ door seals and HVAC. Pathetic.

"Reliability" and "quality" aren't inimical terms in my neck of the woods. Indeed, I'd have a hard time seeing how an unreliable car could be considered a "quality" car.

I think I'll stand by my comparison. Only a fool would buy something of questionable reliability to get cachet and a leather and wood trimed interior. HK seems to be reliable, if overpriced, at least.

[CZ-75]

we can poke fun at Bersas, Ravens, Dalys, FEGs, Makorovs etc instead


I guess you must be on a different planet than most other folks when you'd lump a Makarov into that company. Something that always goes bang when I pull the trigger belongs in the big leagues, not listed with the also-rans. Additionally, the quality of fit and finish is as good as just about any better production pistol out there.

[arinvolvo]

CZ75....Volvo made its B230F (for the 200 series sedans) engines to some of the loosest tolerances ever seen in a 4 cylinder engine....

Not quality? I wouldnt say that...those loose tolerances are the reason these engines will run for hundreds of thousands of miles...without rebuilds...Mine has 160K....my old one had 350K....and it ran great when I sold it.

Those loose tolerances also allow the B230F engines to run with minimal oil, and with minimal damage...however...loose tolerances in the engine also rob performance....they arent hot rods.

Quality? I dont know....Reliabilty? hell yes....

Just ask Glockers. You dont need tight tolerances for quality, and reliability.

BTW, this thread is stupid..:rolleyes: I wish I had never said anything. I love all guns.

[10-Ring]

this thread is stupid.. I wish I had never said anything.


:( To bad you can't unring a bell :( ;)

[Wildalaska]

I guess you must be on a different planet than most other folks when you'd lump a Makarov into that company. Something that always goes bang when I pull the trigger belongs in the big leagues, not listed with the also-rans. Additionally, the quality of fit and finish is as good as just about any better production pistol out there.

Aha...a low end eltitist!!!...bet ya think your Ford Pinto is better than a Chevy Vega too...:neener:

[New_comer]

My USP9F works for me...


Heavy DA trigger, unusual mag release (the fastest there is, period! :p ), chunkiness, rough grip, twin recoil spring, 3-dot sights, and all


And there's nothing anybody here can do to change my mind about it!!! :D:D:D

[Doc]

1) You guys actually think about COST??:what:

I see on the photo pages THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF GUNS!!! If you guys think ONE HK is too expensive, I am FLOORED!

2) I think there is too little time,
and TOO MANY GREAT GUNS to actually:
a> own them all
b> shoot them all
c> shoot them all WELL
d> afford the ammo to shoot them all well!

3) I WANT a compact USP 45 in ?variant 7 (the DAO) for less than the cost of my first glock which had night sights...any for sale??

:neener:

[Doc]

one other thought

cars are real expensive, and we buy/lease them for 2-5 years, then get something new.

why not BUY a gun you think you like,
shoot it and if you dont love it,
SELL it and buy another??

(Remember I don't think guns should hold their value or appreciate any more than used cars do)

Just for the record my cars have included:

Miata, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Explorer and F-150

:eek:

[Bobarino]

obviously someone who has never driven a BMW. every car has some problem or another. ya just can't explain it . you just have to try it for yourself, and until you go ripping up a twisty mountain road in an M3, you really shouldn't judge the car. BMW's are driver's machines. to compare it to a Honda deosn't even make sense. they are not even in the same category. i had WAY more fun in a E36 coupe than i had in my last car, a Porsche 928GT. even though the Porsche was much faster, the BMW is just more fun to drive. not sure how, it just is.

its just like the HK thing. people bashing them whilst uninformed about them. i had reservations about buying an HK at first, because i was hung up on the looks of it. its ugly. the sig P-229 is my idea of a very visually pleasing gun. but i had a bad experience with one and went with the one that i had a good experience with. the HK compact. i certainly didn't care about the name on the side, the looks, or anything tactical. i just wanted a gun that functioned right every time. one that i could bet my life on. cost is not an option when it comes to saving my posterior. i had no idea i would be labeled a tactical poseur or anything of the sort until i started reading this board. oh well, it happens everywhere i guess. there are those that swear that the Beech Bonanza is the BEST plane there is and those that make fun of them for spending too much money of a plane when a Bellanca Super Viking would do the same thing for less. whatever.

my H&K is better than your Honda!!!!

Bobby

[agtman]

"I dont hear much about HK around here."


That's because the "sticker shock" from Teutonic polymer always leaves one speechless. :what:

:p

:D

[Tamara]

Who is more likely to complain about wind noise from the door seals in a J.D. Power survey, a 22-year-old single mom who just bought a Honda Corollentra, or a 53-year-old accountant who just dropped a load on a Jagbenz AudiM5? ;)

I never said the USP was too expensive. That'd be a little hypocritical, since I've dumped far more than the cost of a USP on more than one gun (some of which were other HK products).

All I'm saying is, speaking for only me and myself, I like to see where the money went.

I can see it in a P7. It's a limited production gun, with parts milled from forged billet unobtainium, case-hardened 'til they're harder than woodpecker lips, built into a gun with more moving parts than a Ferrari formula one engine, and fitted to tolerances that'd make NASA engineers wake up screaming in the middle of the night.

I can see it in my Springfield Pro. The parts list reads like a who's who of cost-no-object 1911 bits: Nowlin, S&A, Videcki, Wilson, Novak, Birdsong. (And of course cost was no object; the guys who spec'd the gun out weren't spending their own money, they were spending yours and mine. ;) ) Then the whole thing was lovingly hand-assembled and hand-fitted by a trained craftsman.

Personally, I just don't see it in any plastic gun. Walther, SIG and Glock all offer top-notch polymer pistols in the Five Bills range; only HK asks more.

But you know what? If the USP is the right gun for you, then it is worth more. To you. Just not to me. ;)

Me saying "I think a USP is overpriced" is not the same thing as me saying "I think your USP is junk". Besides, y'all would probably think I paid way too dang much for my last Improved I-frame S&W .22LR, but I think I got a great deal.

Different strokes... ;)

[duckfoot]

It's all a touch and feel thing people. Don't spread the bad vibes on the net. Might infect the rest of the nation.

Gun's are cool

People are hot









I'm cool

how bout you?




got a usp .45 too

[Boats]

I object to the attempts to equivalate a USP to a BMW M series car. The P7 would be the M-series. The garden variety USP is that low-end 318 hatchback for the wannabes. It has the nameplate, but none of the materials, scarceness, cachet, or performance to be worthy of the awe (and premium payment) of anyone who knows anything about cars.:rolleyes:

If "Made in Germany" automatically meant "the best" we'd at least have an explanation of things such as sauerkraut and industrial music, but we don't and those things still suck despite their origin.:evil:

How good could the USP be when the company is rolling out the very much overlapping P2000?

[surfinUSA]

My department has approved semi autos in 9mm, 40, and 45, from HK, SIG, Beretta, S&W and Ruger.

The ones that go down the most are the most expensive, the HK.

Followed much to my dismay (as I carry one daily and have fortunately never had a problem with either of mine) is the second most expensive, the SIG.

The one that never goes down is the Beretta 9mm (which I carried and liked alot before the SIG 239 40S&W and 220 were approved). Consequently, our firearms staff is attempting to have the department standardize on Beretta 9mms.

[GitSome45]

HK...? :barf:

That da*n "pointy ended slide release" on USP models...:cuss:

Not to mention those &*^$#% "Proof Marks" that look like Elk antlers...:banghead:

(actually never owned an HK, probably would love shooting / owning it...)

OH - WELL, I`m too busy JUSTIFYING why I never bought one in all these years...:D

Howard

[webley455]

I say Model 28, You say Python.....:scrutiny:

[GitSome45]

I LOVED my 4" Stainless COLT PYTHON...:D

[Mike Irwin]

I'm ALWAYS up for a shoot, Kirk!

Give me a couple of days prior notice, and maybe we can put something together with the locals.

[CZF]

Seems like a pretty emotiuonal topic. I never quite understood the
appeal of the H&K products.

Unlike Tamara, i think the sun both rises and sets on the CZ75
and P-35 Browning.

I also think it is bad taste to belittle someone for his/her choice
in guns, as you might disagree, but should respect their freedom
to choose.

I can remember the P9S in .45. I thought it unique, but also
strange in a way compared to my 1911s and Hi-Powers.
The P7 looks cool, but never pointed like a 'real gun' for me.


When they came out with the USP it was promising. Having
plastic hammers (could snap off) and triggers..USPs feel kinda big and clumbsy in my opinion. However, I do think the H&K P2000 will be a hard gun for many to turn down. looks to be the optimal package for duty/defense, but so is a PCR or P-01 for a lot
less money. CZ is just as big a name as H&K is..outside the
states.

[dude]

my only auto pistol is a P7
............others have come and gone.

A $239 IMI Baby Eagle Compact 9mm is the only other pistol that has worked almost as well for me so it is not a $$$ issue.

[KMKeller]

Will do Mike. It'd be nice to round up a few folks and make a day of it.

[CZ-75]

my H&K is better than your Honda!!!!

Why? The USP and Civic are both appliances.

BTW, since I don't own a Honda (at least under that name), it damn well ought to be.

obviously someone who has never driven a BMW.

Just Acuras, for the most part. When I can afford to p*** money down the drain and pay the dealer big bucks to reset the oil change LEDs and just, overall, spend a lot of money at the service dept., I'll think about it. I could probably get into a mid-level 3-series w/o much trouble, but considering that a 30K+ car comes w/ VINYL seats standard, I keep thinking that I can get more for my money from Japan. Lancer Evo or WRX STi, here I come.

Who is more likely to complain about wind noise from the door seals in a J.D. Power survey, a 22-year-old single mom who just bought a Honda Corollentra, or a 53-year-old accountant who just dropped a load on a Jagbenz AudiM5?

I'd say both, at least when the seals are disintegrating and getting carbon black all over the interior. And, dare I say it, no Honda, Toyota, etc. would get out the door with this problem.

Mine has 160K....my old one had 350K....and it ran great when I sold it.

And a '94 Honda Accord EX has 1.4 million miles on the clock. It isn't much to find a Honda with 300K+ on the odometer. I got rid of my last Acura with 200K+ on the odometer.

Personally, from experience, I despise the Volvo 240 series in particular and Volvo in general. Worst car I ever owned. Glad you like yours.

bet ya think your Ford Pinto is better than a Chevy Vega too...

The Cosworth Vega GT "coulda been a contenda" (for that era) if they didn't have a poorly designed front sub-frame that caused them to crab-walk down the road unless a body shop welded in reinforcement. Or had the General decided that putting liners in Al block engines was a good idea.

Now, of course, they're using plastic washers in their transmissions and my father found this out the hard way when his Olds lost its tranny 1K outside of warranty. :barf: No fool like an Olds fool. Can't break 50 years of habit, though he did manage to buy a Pathfinder for a brief and shining interlude.

The Pinto, BTW, will never be anything more than a Molotov cocktail on wheels.



Now, back to guns, particularly the USP


I can see it in a P7. It's a limited production gun, with parts milled from forged billet unobtainium, case-hardened 'til they're harder than woodpecker lips, built into a gun with more moving parts than a Ferrari formula one engine, and fitted to tolerances that'd make NASA engineers wake up screaming in the middle of the night.

I agree. I will buy one some day, perhaps next year.

Personally, I just don't see it in any plastic gun. Walther, SIG and Glock all offer top-notch polymer pistols in the Five Bills range; only HK asks more.

Likewise, I concur. I would say that a case could be made for the Expert, but $1200 or so is still too much.

[surfinUSA]

CZ75, I don't own a BMW but I've driven them and they are everything they claim to be.

One thing that they have over Acura and Honda (which are great cars in their own right) for that matter, is free maintenance, BMW doesn't cost a dime, for the life of the warranty (4 years I believe) which begins to add up pretty quickly, at least at Acura, who does charge for maintenance.

You don't want to see either of these cars after the warranty is over, as the price of admission in either service facility is through the roof.

[Stabby]

Acuras are the HK of the auto world. Way to overpriced with millions of brainwashed minions. (and I like HK products , but I wont dilute myself)

I mean acura doesnt even make a RWD (oh right the nsx, I'll tear that piece apart in a sec) vehicle how can you even talk about performance? do you undersatand the torque steer and understeer physically inherent to FWD architechure? Not to mention they DONT even have a dedicated performance division (like M, AMG, SVT). They dont even offer a V8 in any of their cars. I will cede that the CL -S might be a half decent car if it was RWD. and the NSX hmm lets see, costs clost to 90k, has less than 300 hp and ft/lbs and even though it's engine is mid mounted it has WORSE weight distribuion than the front engine Z06. so I guess you pay that extra that 40k premium over a Z06 for less performance in handling, low end, and top end and I guess you plastic interrior fits together better than the one in the vette.

I'm not a BMW fan but at least they make their cars RWD and design them from the ground up with perfromance in mind, instead of just modifying an economy car with larger engines over years of its production. Face it if Acura had real performance in mind they would design a compotent rwd chassis.

Dont forget you beloved WRX is still built on a ten year old chassis with a cheap interrior and extremely questionable styling. IT does have well balenced performance and some cool stuff (driver being able to squirt water into the intercooler, and changing the torque dist) but calling a vehicle in the 25-30K range affordable is a little bit of a strech.

I like old American cars, sure the gaps might be a little bigger than in your Acura, but I can easilt get REAL performance, like 500+ ft/lbs for under 10k a lot of different ways. Oh yeah and I can work on it out back.

Fanatacism both for or against anything is just retarded. The Acura is a reasonable vehicle (if you can live with your self buying something thats FWD and has trac control, I personally couldn't) but just dont pretend it's the be all and end all of Autodom because you have one.

I mean I really like my Big ol Buick but I'm at least I'm realistic about it. The reasons I like it are because I wanted a big V8 RWD sedan that with a minor amount of work and money I could have running, in a straight line at least, with other full size sedans (Impala SS, Marauder, S500). That and the fact that I like a car that is unique, I never see any other 225's on the road. and I am very content with my current price/performance ratio. Perfectly reliable too with a newly rebuilt engine and tranny.


Acura and HK both make a product that ultimately accomplish their goals effictively, and their owners seem to be proud of them. I dont see anything inherently wrong with that. It's not overpriced if its what you want and you can afford it. However I personally would have a hard time calling myself a real car or shooting enthusiast if I ONLY owned an Acura or HK usp. (P7 or socom maybe a different story)

[CB900F]

H'mmm;

I've been reading this thread with interest. Learned a few things, both about the H&K's and about the posters.

I bought my USPc about 6 years ago. The primary reason I bought it was that it was THE most left hand friendly semi available at the time. I ordered in variant 2 from a local shop & did not pay in the $700's for it.

It also fit my hand much better than the Glock. I've since run both factory & handloads through it with no problems. Zero, as in none at all, ever. If you want to handload lead, as I did, all I can say is use either Ranier or Berry's copper washed. Sorry, obsessive types, I don't keep round counts.

About a year ago I got the ambi control lever retro-fitted by H&K.
The service was at the price quoted & the turn around was quick.

Somebody should check the dictionary for the meaning of 'pre-emptive'. I mean, a poseur might mis-use the term.
Snrk! 900F

[curt]

well i don't know anything about this Hk vs 1911 crap but i did find out that i like Boats...in a totally manly way of course.

There's a few folks whose posts i like to read because they are: 1. know what they are talking about 2. they don't have a clue what they are talking about 3. they just write well 4. or they're just flaming as#holes. You know who you are (well actually probably don't).

[DrDremel]

WOW, my post was an observation on the different types of HK owners. Looks like I was right on as I see the posts before and after it. I never ripped on the USP but some of this really is funny.

[CZ-75]

I can easilt get REAL performance, like 500+ ft/lbs for under 10k

Straight line performance only.

I mean acura doesnt even make a RWD

That's been SUCH a disadvantage to RealTime Acura and their Type Rs when winning the past 3 or so Touring Car championships against RWD BMWs. Oh, and they have less HP and torque to boot.

No one is questioning BMWs handle, but it's more of a semi-practical extravagance, rather than a car you can trust as a daily driver that won't leave you stranded and lighten your wallet.

Way to overpriced with millions of brainwashed minions.

Right :rolleyes:

That's why they come with goodies like HID headlamps, heated memory seats and mirrors, Bose stereo standard for 30K and BMW charges for comparable options, despite a 5-10K price differential before options.

Sub "BMW" for "Acura" in that statement, and you've got it.


Fanatacism both for or against anything is just retarded. The Acura is a reasonable vehicle (if you can live with your self buying something thats FWD and has trac control, I personally couldn't) but just dont pretend it's the be all and end all of Autodom because you have one.

That's why I looked at Mazda, Nissan, VW, and Toyota before buying another.

FWIW, the miata is one othe best handling platforms out there and turns in some of the best lap times at many SCCA events against way more powerful cars.

I never see any other 225's on the road.

Hard to take you seriously when you drive deuce-and-a-quarter.

[Mal H]

Well, it looks like the H&K "discussion" has been pretty much played out. Now the discussions are centered on which car is the most tactical, so, that being off-topic, I'll close this one down.