How many rounds and where?

[ErminioB]

Hi, gentlemen and good morning!

That's the question: how many rounds should I try in a self-defense situation (only a bad guy but seriously willing to hurt me, that is, I do have to shoot) and where? I saw in "Black Hawk Down" capt. Steele saying "two shoots to the chest and one to the head", but some time ago here in Italy a LEO had to shoot in a robbery and said "I shoot'em three times to the chest, like they teach at the firing line".

What do you think? It's a matter of skill?

Thanks

Erminio

[Hkmp5sd]

You shoot them in the largest/easiest target available and you shoot them until they are no longer a threat. When they stop doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot, you can stop shooting.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Ermino-

HK is pretty much dead on.

Are you in a place where you could access & attend some good training? It might help to answer some questions - this & others - for you.

Bottomline minimum would be, fully weapon plus at least one full reload, i.e: loaded pistol & one spare magazine or loaded revolver and a full speed loader/ speed strip/ dump pouch (revolver kind).

Erick

[David Scott]

Two to the chest and one to the head is called a "Mozambique". While it makes sure the bad guy is good and dead, it seems to me wasteful of ammo. Besides, if you can hit him in the head with your third shot, why not do it with the first?

The "double tap", or two to the chest, is designed to get the second shot in before the body's natural reaction to trauma can shut down the wounded nerves and insulate the brain from pain. With a single assailant, This may be your best choice. Two to the center of mass with a significant defensive caliber should give most goblins pause.

With multiple bad guys, everything I've read says you should start with the one who is the greatest threat, and put one shot into each bad guy. After that, see if follow ups are needed.

[Chris Rhines]

As many as necessary into the best and most accessible target available. On a stationary, forward-facing target I train to shoot for the upper chest (between the nipples and the base of the throat) but a stationary forward-facing target is a luxury I don't expect to get.

Edit - I don't train in double-taps per se, I prefer to sight each and every round I fire. I often practice Bill Drill*s, which are good for learning very high-speed accurate shooting.

- Chris

* Bill Drill - Draw and fire six rounds into the A-zone of an IPSC target at seven yards, as fast as you can. If you don't have IPSC targets, use a 6" paper plate or something similar, the target should be fairly small. You have to get all six rounds into the target or it doesn't count. If you can do this in 2 seconds you're doing damn well; I can usually pull it off in just over three.

[dadman]

Jeff Gonzales addresses this, and other items, in an article titled "Presumptous Training" in the Jan. '03 issue of SWAT magazine, pg. 20.

About the "Failure to Stop" drill, two to the chest then transition to head he says:
"While it sounds nice in theory-and many trainers will tout this as the be all, end all-it falls short in reality.
Think about it, why would your shots be ineffective?
Did anyone address the simple fact you could have missed both shots to the body and now you want to transition to a smaller, more mobile, harder to hit target zone."

[ErminioB]

for your hints!

Dadman, I think you're right.

See you

Erminio

[HS/LD]

In my training with the military I was taught the reason behind transitioning from the thorax to the head was if the COM shots were ineffective.

Why would the COM shots be ineffective?

What if the recepient of the "double tap" to the chest was wearing body armour and the ammunition you have .45 especially is not penertrating the armour.

Therefore a quick transition to the head should solve the problem.

This was taught, in my case, using either the HK MP5 or BHP. With the HK single fire, 3 round burst or controllable burts and a quick transition up the thorax to the head with the next burst. The BHP in 9mm assumed the same "quick" double tap and then a more controlled 3rd to the face/throat.

Regards,
HS/LD

[jrhines]

All the above assumes that you have hit what you are shooting at! As with most arguments over how many and what caliber, I always take one good hit with a 9mm over however many misses you want with the caliber of your choice.

J.Rhines
Seneca, MD

[J.Gillespie]

Two to center mass and then look the situation over.

[Tacblack]

I would have to go with HKMP5SD, you shoot them until they are no longer a threat or you run out of ammo. Not that PD's are always right but thats what my friends at the local PD's said they were trained to do and I would agree. Beyond that figure out what you have faith in and practice, practice and practice so if the need arises you will act not react.

[sonoranjack]

I've heard different tactics. 1 school teaches shoot & keep shooting until the threat stops. A second school says the previous only makes you a target to incoming fire from the first threat or a second. This school says it's better to double tap (controlled pair) to COM. Then move. Evaluate. Reengage first threat or shoot at a new threat. A third school teaches shoot 2 rds to the body COM then 1 to the head. The second school says the head shot is too small of a target. Instead shoot 2 rds to the groin. That second school also says that ya shood shoot to the groin to begin w/. Try any, all, mix & match. Make up your own. Bottom line is what ever stops the attack stops the attack. I shoot at a silhouette target. Which has a wide bottle inside a narrow bottle. The narrow bottle is COM. The body of the narrow bottle is 5" wide by 11" long w/ the neck of the bottle moving up through the neck of the silhouette & the cap in the head. The narrow bottle has a 3" by 3" square in the middle of the narrow bottle. The same square is in the head. When I shoot at the target the square is POA. I'm better at hitting the square in the head then the square in narrow bottle. Go figgure.

[HS/LD]

HKMP5SD: You shoot them in the largest/easiest target available and you shoot them until they are no longer a threat. When they stop doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot, you can stop shooting.

There is NO point to continually shoot the largest target, ie. COM if the rounds are ineffective you could run the gun dry before the threat is neutralised.

If I was a thinking mugger/burglar/perp, I would wear body armor in this day and age.

Continuing to shoot the COM when your opponent has body armour on could be deadly.

For you!

Regards,
HS/LD

[Trisha]

Assuming CQB environment of 7 yards or less:
First shot: Center of mass
Second shot: Head/neck-to-clavicle
Third shot: Groin/pelvis

This addresses body armor (Kevlar, or improvised materials), and sees the defender retracting the firearm to a close-to-the-body retention grip if the goblin continues to close (I have seen remarkable immunity to small arms fire when the goblin is under the influence of PCP, crack, meth, and cocktail combinations). The groin shot, even delivered with smaller calibers has a wealth of arterial assets, neurological bundles, and so on - and is a highly effective zone-of-opportunity when confronting a female goblin.

As most of my students have, over the years, come face-to-face with a rapist, a majority of their experience has seen them confronting a nude male commonly armed with a knife of some sort. That's when the only drill is "shoot until the threat is neutralized - reload, rig-for-emergency (a shoulder rig with second identical gun and mags, and a tactical belt with sure-fire light and second mag pouch and ASP and a small pouch containing two pressure bandages, pepper spray neutralizer, and a hurricane whistle), dial 9-1-1 from the nearest safe zone and wait in complete silence.

If this sounds sophisticated, it has proven itself to be fast, and provides substantial reassurance. Several students have supplimented this with a riot gun, and a few have duplicated the entire kit in a locked case in their vehicle (along with their everyday carry gun).

Trisha

[Hkmp5sd]

There is NO point to continually shoot the largest target, ie. COM if the rounds are ineffective you could run the gun dry before the threat is neutralised.

HS/LD,

That's just common sense. If you are shooting someone and see that it isn't working, of course you would shift your fire. Although even wearing a vest, the COM shots will have an effect on the attacker, allowing time to adjust. Unlike the movies, taking a round in a vest isn't like a bullet bouncing off Superman.

The same applies to a person charging you. Given how fast the individual is coming, even a fatal shot may not stop the attacker before he reaches you. So you shoot him in the pelvic area and break the bone so that his legs will not support his weight and he collapses.

As was proven in the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, people can live long enough to do a great deal of damage even after sustaining a fatal wound. The old double-tap to the chest or other "combination" followed by stopping and evaluating your opponent just doesn't cut it.

[dadman]

Erminio and others,
Reminder that I was qouting Jef Gonzales.

Sounds like this topic is similiar to "9mm vs. .45" and "M16 vs. AK47"!

To clarify, are we talking strictly handgun caliber or is rifle included?

At 25 yds or less, how does 9mm and .45 perform against body armors?

Can any one recall a real life example which supports either position? Continuous COM, or 2 COM/1CNS?
My reviews of real life gunfights are limited to what I've read in Ayoob's column in American Handgunner. Seems like the fights described happen quickly. Can't recall any reviewed, off the top of my head, where the shooter purposely transitioned to CNS.
Anyone else?

HKmp5sd, I've read a couple of articles where a doctor disputed the pelvic shot theory. He stated that the pelvic bone was extremely strong.
I'm no expert in these areas. Looking forward to more discussion and info about shot placement. Taking this discussion as a reminder to vary practice at the range.

[Hkmp5sd]

dadman,

I initially learned about the pelvic shot from one of Ayoob's training videos. :)

[PeacefulWarrior]

Keep It Simple
Shoot them wherever you can,
Whenever you can,
and how many times you think is necessary.

In reality people don't appear as nice paper targets hanging 7 yards from you downrange.They move,take cover then move agian.Center of mass is preferred of course but I'll take whatever I can get. Makes no difference to me if I preformed a "two to the chest one to the head drill- or a one to the chest one to the head third to the pelvis"......Results count not the technique you used. Under stress you won't realize how many rounds you fired,but you will realize the threat is gone and/or continuing.

[Island Beretta]

I think it is dangerous to adopt beforehand how you will fire your shots!! Self-defense is reactive and the situation even when it plays out how you envision it still puts you at a disadvantage. An automatic reaction may be inappropriate.

Remember you fight how you train.

You may have been practicing double-taps to the centre of mass and the guy appears in body armour!! You probably then lack the confidence to take a head shot..

For me the fundamentals:

Practice accuracy, speed, sight alignment, sight placement, point shooting, gun movement, body movement, covering and defensive positioning and last but not least situational assessment.

:cool:

[CWL]

y'all,

You are making a big assumption in that you will be able to SEE where the bullet hits. This is a fallacy, especially in combat and low light.

Bullet holes are small, in fact, they are almost invisible when made into clothing. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SEE OR CONFIRM IF YOU HAVE HIT YOUR TARGET.

This is why everyone must train constantly! You have to be able to hit COM and head by reflex.

Keep shooting into largest portion of your target (COM typically) until he/she goes down, if it doesn't appear that your COM shots are slowing the BG down, then switch to failure drill and take better aimed shot at head.

Shoot to win, not for fancy x-ring scores. Never expect a single shot or double tap to have successfully stopped the armed encounter. Remember that people have an ~80% chance of surviving handgun wounds.

[PATH]

I imagine for most of us here getting into a gunfight would cause huge rush of adrenaline and fear. Me, I would keep shooting center body mass, The odds of a bad guy wearing body armor are small. If he were close enough I might take a head shot but with the adrenaline pumping it is all I can do, I think, to just hit the damn guy!

[dadman]

Article from Gabe Suarez's newsletter addressing Failure to Stop:
http://http://www.suarezinternational.com/mozambique.html

He talks about pelvic shots, and different shot placement teachings:
"In summation, you shoot at least twice: A) In case you miss with one, and B) To Maximize the effects of a ballistically deficient weapon. Having a solution to the Failure to Stop event is imperative because due to many outside influences, such as drugs, body armor, or heightened emotional states, adversaries do not always stop the fight and fall down when they are shot."

http://http://www.suarezinternational.com/tacticaloperator.html
http://http://gabesuarez.com/

[JeepDriver]

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.


I practice my double taps every time I go to the range. Lately I've been practicing the 2 in the chest 1 in the head. I take 2 quick shots at the chest and a single shot a second or so later to the head. Shot placement is the key. I shoot the standard B27 targets with an orange dot placed where the heart would be. That is the area I aim for with my double taps.

[Still Learning]

I was taught to shoot the BG the same way they vote in Chicago...early and often.:)

Center of Mass makes sense unless it clearly isn't working and the BG keeps coming. Of course, moving and taking cover during the engagement is equally important.

[labgrade]

I'd guess the whole point of shootin' the guy in the first place would be to survive, no?

I'd double tap COM & if he fell down, I'd bail, be gone & hide myself so I didn't have the opportunity to get shot, or have to shoot again.

Make a phone call for "service" & just stay the hell out of the fray.

Why is it we seem to think that we're static & just have to stay there???J

ust a question.