What's Wrong with THIS...


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Werewolf
October 16, 2006, 07:51 PM
In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings. I'm on a number of different mailing lists. Got sent the above today.

Makes a lot of sense to me but somehow I have this feeling that there's a logic bomb in there somewhere. I just can't figure out what it is...

Is there a failure of logic, basic assumptions etc in the above quote and if so what are they?

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carnaby
October 16, 2006, 07:57 PM
http://www.saysuncle.com/images/gunscausecrime.JPG

That's part of what's wrong with it. The second thing that is wrong with it is that they claim that readily available guns don't cause crime, and that they also do cause crime. :p

Loyalist Dave
October 16, 2006, 07:59 PM
The quote contradicts itself. IF the problem is the availability of firearms, and today firearms are more restricted than in the 1960's, then logically there should have been way more school shootings 40 years ago when anybody could get guns at any time, than today. Yet the opposite is true. School shootings have increased over the years, along with firearms restrictions, therefore the problem ISN'T the availability of the guns.

LD

Standing Wolf
October 16, 2006, 08:00 PM
...guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings.

Guns aren't responsible for shootings in schools.

The availability of guns isn't responsible for shootings in schools.

Criminals are responsible for shootings in schools.

Now, was that so very difficult? Only criminals commit crimes. Things can't possibly commit them, nor can abstract entities such as availability.

facedown
October 16, 2006, 08:02 PM
Hey carnaby. Great chart. Very useful.

RH822
October 16, 2006, 08:04 PM
:fire: No school prayer.
The 10 Commandants have been banned from public display.
It's not my fault, I'm a product of a bad childhood.
Baaaad Boy. Now take a time out and promise to never do that again.
"Under God" is no longer in the pledge.
Guns are BAD BAD BAD.
PLEA BARGAINS!

I could go on and on.:fire:

RH

MD_Willington
October 16, 2006, 08:07 PM
Did they have "Gun Free School Zones" in the 40's 50's & 60's...

I'd suspect, and I'm not really one of these higher society brainiac types, didn't go to yale or harvard, committing such an act as a school shooting back in the 40's 50's & 60's was never thought of. If you had a score to settle at school, you would "man up" and duke it out...

My Ethiopian co-worker described this to me...
Even in back water 3rd world countries where kids have REAL AK-47's, you'd be considered some kind of lower than dirt wussie if you even fathomed the thought of using your firearm to settle a score on some other kids, even your family would think you were a low life.

I hope that makes sense... I believe more "feel good" gun control rules are not the end all to violence... if it came down to it, we'd revert to bashing each other skulls in with big rocks... what then, ban big rocks :confused:

MachIVshooter
October 16, 2006, 08:10 PM
The way it should read:

In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, etc., Gun control advocates claim thatguns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

yodar
October 16, 2006, 08:20 PM
Mediocrity BREEDS. The low life gland-driven cretins reproduce their KIND at a higher rate than civilized THINKING real people.

The crime increases are due to THEIR numbers increasing, not gun availability

orangelo
October 16, 2006, 08:50 PM
Availability of guns has nothing to do with it. This is merely what happens when a village raises a child instead of Mommy and Daddy. The village doesn't give a rat's behind whether the child ends up being the next Bill Gates or on death row for killing the next 4 Bill Gates. Mom and Dad usually do care where their offspring end up, the village (aka Crips or Bloods) don't.

220_Swift
October 16, 2006, 09:21 PM
Here are my htoughts on the schools shootings, and violence among the youth today in general.


The youth of today do not have any strict dicipline. The parents feel that they are not allowed to spank their children for fear of getting arrested for child abuse. So, they use other forms of "punishment". Going to their room, having something taken away from them, and the ever famous, time out. These kids have no fear for the repercussions of their actions. My father used to take his gun to school with him. The teacher kept them in a closet in the room with other kids' guns. Then they would hunt on the way home, to put meat on the table. Their were no school shooting back then because children were taught right from wrong, and that they would suffer the consequence of their wrong doings. Parants today are too busy trying to be their childs friend, and not actually diciplining their children. Now I am not saying that the children should be beaten, but a spanking is not out of line.
JMHO of course.

MDMadrid
October 16, 2006, 09:47 PM
First off the way of thinking in today's world is way different than back in the 40's and 50's. To some extent people as a whole we were more responsible back then than today. I should say that controlling guns doesn't help; our focus has to be taken off of the gun and put on the human!

Under God" is no longer in the pledge.

I was not aware that had actually happened!


when a village raises a child instead of Mommy and Daddy

Exactly

TallPine
October 16, 2006, 09:51 PM
It's a satire, my friends. :p

Here is the entire list:

40 Reasons for gun control

1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, & Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense -- give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p.125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.

15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to that Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military weapons", but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles", because they are military weapons.

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, finger printing, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over hand guns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hands.

Car Knocker
October 16, 2006, 10:04 PM
Force-fed religion in school did not prevent school shootings.

RyanM
October 16, 2006, 11:17 PM
Force-fed religion in school did not prevent school shootings.

+ 1 million. Religion is no better a source of moral guidance than TV or comic books. The fact is, children will emulate their parents' morality. Happens at an earlier age than people suspect, too. Birth to 5 years is when the vast majority of all mental development, morality included, takes place.

If their parents are lying, thieving, cheating, murdering scumbags, the children will be too. If the parents are decent people, the children will be too. Religion has nothing to do with it. Sure, many fine, upstanding citizens are religious. But most of the worthless sacks of crap in jail are, too.

wolfman01
October 16, 2006, 11:19 PM
I bet ol Rosie O'Donnel would literally wet herself in fury if that were read on the communist vew.

Optical Serenity
October 16, 2006, 11:33 PM
I love the chart, where can I get a fullsize one and more like it?

Axman
October 17, 2006, 01:56 AM
Originally the pledge didn't include "under God" it read as follows "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all'. "Under God" was added during the Lincoln administration.

PlayboyPenguin
October 17, 2006, 02:07 AM
Don't get me started on religion...but another reason that argument doesn't work is it is just not factual.

People forget we did not always live in the age of immediate information that we do today. If something happened outside your state (or even your town) you often did not hear about it.

I was driving through Wyoming once and saw a plaque that was dedicated to some children that were killed in like 1930 something by a fellow student who brought a rifle to school one day and went berzerk.

And when I lived in Arizona some of the locals used to talk about a guy back about 50 years ago who held some kids hostage in a school with a rifle, shot the teacher and a student, and then burned the building down when he was later surrounded by local law enforcement.

These things did happen...people everywhere just did not get to see them unfold on TV as it happened or see the immediate aftermath. It is the same with child abductions. They happened in the past too but they were not turned into rating material by 24hr cable news networks lie they are today.

JohnBT
October 17, 2006, 08:44 AM
Lincoln?

"The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God"."

Falconeer
October 17, 2006, 09:01 AM
During the height of the McCarthy 'red scare' hysteria. :)

Autolycus
October 17, 2006, 09:05 AM
God does not need to be tought in any public schools. Let your children go to a religious school or just sunday school perhaps.

geekWithA.45
October 17, 2006, 10:05 AM
There is a popular conception that school shootings began with Columbine, or thereabouts, a conception that is bolstered with "timelines" like this one that start in 1997: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4371403.stm

It's simply not true.

If you dig back, you'll find all sorts of school shootings, most frequently done not by the kids, but by various adults.

Remember the Boomtown Rat's "I don't like Mondays?" That shooting was 1979.

If I had time, I'd dig out more examples. I distinctly remember reading that the most deadly school attack was in the 30's or 40's. The killer was an adult male, who used explosives.

Update:

AH! Here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster


More lists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_massacre

SixForSure
October 17, 2006, 01:43 PM
40 Reasons for gun control....................................If that doesn't deserve a Pulitzer, Nothing does!

Axman
October 17, 2006, 01:53 PM
Lincoln?

"The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God".

That's what I get for posting when I'm half asleep! Sheesh, I was thinking Lincoln because of the Gettysburg address was the influence for the "Under God". :o

romma
October 17, 2006, 01:56 PM
IF the problem is the availability of firearms, and today firearms are more restricted than in the 1960's, then logically there should have been way more school shootings 40 years ago when anybody could get guns at any time, than today. There were tons of school shootings in the "old days"... School shooting teams in basements of many high schools competing against each other. :neener:

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