"On guns, lawmakers are accountable" (PA)


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K-Romulus
October 17, 2006, 12:45 PM
This nonsense/misinformation (from a law professor, no less) needs immediate response.
I will be sending a LTE later today. . .

(Philly Inquirer LTE email: Inquirer.Letters@phillynews.com)

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/opinion/local1/15777140.htm

Posted on Tue, Oct. 17, 2006

On guns, lawmakers are accountable
By David Kairys

The appearance of several thousand Pennsylvanians at the state legislature a couple weeks ago was unusual, perhaps historic.

They were there to ask the legislature to reconsider laws that make Pennsylvania one of the least-regulated states in the country for buying handguns. Among the people who traveled to Harrisburg were the mayors of nine cities from around the state - and from Trenton and New York City. Pennsylvania has become a source for criminals in surrounding states to buy handguns for use in crimes.

The mayors came because almost anyone without a criminal record can walk into a gun store in Pennsylvania and walk out with as many handguns as his or her credit card or cash can pay for. It can be 10, 25, even 100 handguns. No questions asked, no registration of the handguns or buyer, no responsibility to report them sold, lost or stolen - no problem.

Under federal law, a purchaser can then sell to others without even doing a record check. Pennsylvania has a law that limits this, but it was written in a way that makes it obviously unenforceable. The bottom line in Pennsylvania: A person so inclined can buy handguns and sell them to others indiscriminately without having to worry much about getting caught, prosecuted or convicted.

This is why limiting handgun purchases to one a month is a reform - although it is hard to imagine a legitimate reason for wanting to buy 12 cheap, easily concealed handguns in a year, and 12 more each year.

Nationally, about 60 people die each day from handgun injuries, and three times that number are shot but survive. Numbers of handgun murders vary over time and among the urban areas of the country. Last year, it was Philadelphia's turn on top, with almost one handgun murder a day on average, and it is no better this year. For American cities generally, handguns have been the biggest and most consistent threat to urban safety and public health over the last several decades.

In addition to laws that fail to stem easy access, the state legislature - with surprising votes in favor by some Philadelphia-area legislators - overturned the city's ban on assault weapons and required the Police Department, contrary to its own wishes, to grant a handgun permit to almost anyone of age and without a record. There has been a huge increase in the number of people carrying handguns legally on city streets. Arguments over shoveling snow or insults traded at Delaware Avenue bars now often include one or both participants reaching for a gun - handy and legal in a pocket or car - and someone shot.

The state legislature, supported by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, has taken away the power of local governments to protect the public from gun violence. Philadelphia is supposed to have home rule, but our mayor, City Council and police have been seriously hindered in their ability to protect public safety and health.

Considering the legislature's history on gun control, it is not surprising that it rejected all proposed limits on handguns despite the rally in Harrisburg. The lawmakers were not moved by citizen protests.

But the rally, combined with recent poll results, could signal the possibility for change. About two-thirds of Pennsylvanians polled last month favor stronger regulation of handguns - across the state, not just in Philadelphia, which polled three-fourths in favor.

The biggest obstacles to regulation are the cultural and political dimensions of the debate. Yes, part of the reason for the gun lobby's success in Harrisburg and Washington is ample funds and well-chosen political strategies. But the NRA takes extreme positions that often have little backing - opposing, for example, prohibition of Teflon-coated "cop-killer" bullets that can pierce bullet-proof vests. Besides, remember that lead paint and PCBs were banned despite the efforts of rich, powerful industries and lobbies.

There are more than enough places to look for responsibility. Individuals pull the triggers. Government could substantially limit the flow of handguns to criminals and youth. Handgun manufacturers could limit criminal and youth access since they know or can find out which dealers feed crime - more than half of the guns used in crimes are sold by only 1 percent of the dealers. A range of social and economic factors also play a role.

All of these should be addressed. But what we know for sure is that if you make handguns easily accessible in this country, you get about 60 dead people a day. On average, one from that daily toll dies in Philadelphia, and the victim is often a child.

If legislators find easy access to handguns acceptable in these circumstances, we need to go to their constituents. We should talk to them and, perhaps, together reject the sense of normalcy that for too long has surrounded all this death, suffering and grief.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kairys is a law professor at Temple University.

PA people should already know that all handgun purchases in PA require (1) a background check on the buyer, and (2) registration with the state police.

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TrybalRage
October 17, 2006, 09:00 PM
Actually, it is illegal for the state police to keep a registry.

Not that they care much, that is.

vmfrantz
October 17, 2006, 09:17 PM
The problem with pa is its to blue (democrat and libral). People that commit crimes with weapons in this state hardly do any real time behind bars.:banghead: The things I see here in this state that get slapped on the wrist is sad. The worst part is people with our views get no media attention, and if we do they make it as if we are mentally ill.

yhtomit
October 17, 2006, 09:23 PM
"PA people should already know that all handgun purchases in PA require (1) a background check on the buyer, and (2) registration with the state police."

As another reader pointed out, there's no registration with the state police -- at least not that I know of. I would not call myself a PA person, but I am in my 2d year at Temple Law; I don't know this professor, but it sounds like one I might not take for a course on the 2d Amendment :)

Firearms purchases in PA for me have been fairly smooth; the overarching hand of the state is about as evident here as it is in Texas, Tennessee or Washington in that regard, at least when it comes to retail sales. (Can't speak to the laws on person-to-person transfers for those other states.) If they'd make the rational move and let a sales tax replace the state income tax, I might consider becoming a "PA person" -- it's a nice state, in many ways, even has four good seasons and some snowboard hills.

Cheers,

timothy

yhtomit
October 17, 2006, 09:50 PM
Hey, I waited until the 2d graf to invoke the wrath of Godwin ;)

---------------------------

Dear Sirs:

David Kairy's claim that there are "no questions asked" of gun purchasers in Pennsylvania doesn't match my experience as a purchaser, or state law; the handguns I've purchased in Pennsylvania required me to undergo both national and state background checks, as do all retail firearms sales in the state, and to prove that I was a Pennsylvania resident.

It's true that Pennsylvania doesn't keep a registry of handguns (or any firearms, for that matter); probably that's at least in part because Pennsylvanians know such registries have been used in recent history to identify gun owners and confiscate their registered weapons -- not just in places like Nazi Germany a few dacades ago, but in New York City into the present day.

If Kairy would like to see fewer gun deaths in Pennsylvania, perhaps he should clamor for more citizens to apply for and obtain permits for concealed carry; studies show that permit holders are overwhelmingly law abiding, and their presence means that armed criminals can't be as confident of unarmed victims.

Sincerely,

Timothy Lord
JD Candidate, Temple Law

lamazza
October 17, 2006, 09:57 PM
well said ^^

K-Romulus
October 17, 2006, 10:21 PM
The "registration" in PA takes the form of a "Handgun Sales Database" kept by the state police since 1943 for every transfer of ownership (with certain exceptions for transfers between immediate family members). That is why you have to go through a dealer for handgun sales in PA, even private sales.

PA doesn't seem to have online statutes, but this court's page is the same as my Westlaw printout:

Background:
http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6102.html

18 PA s. 6102 Defintions

"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6111.html
18 PA s.6111 Sale or Transfer of Firearms

(a) Time and manner of delivery.--

1. Except as provided in paragraph (2), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser or transferee thereof until 48 hours shall have elapsed from the time of the application for the purchase thereof, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded.

2. Thirty days after publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin that the Instantaneous Criminal History Records Check System has been established in accordance with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159, 18 U.S.C. 921 et seq.), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser thereof until the provisions of this section have been satisfied, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded.

(b) Duty of seller.--No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been satisfied and until he has:

(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer. The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred.

. . .
(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.





A gun club sued the state police over this defacto registration because "gun registration" is illegal in PA. The PA Supreme Court said that a "database of sales" was not the same as a"registry" and ruled for the state police. Allegheny County Sportsman's League v. Rendell, 580 Pa. 149 (2004). (http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/Supreme/out/J-1-2003mo.pdf)

"It is undisputed that the database at issue is not a registry of ownership, but rather, merely reflects the applications/records of sale for handgun purchases that occur in Pennsylvania. The database does not maintain a record of all firearms owned by Pennsylvanians, which would include long guns, or firearms that are owned by Pennsylvanians, but not purchased in the Commonwealth. Additionally, the database of handgun sales does not include handguns that are transferred between spouses, parents and children, and grandparents and grandchildren. See 18 Pa.C.S. 6111(c). Nor is the database a survey of existing ownership. The database maintained by the Commonwealth merely contains information regarding the sales of handguns in the Commonwealth. Such a database does not amount to a “registry of firearm ownership” as prohibited by the Firearms Act."

MartinBrody
October 17, 2006, 10:50 PM
almost anyone without a criminal record can walk into a gun store in Pennsylvania and walk out with as many handguns as his or her credit card or cash can pay for. It can be 10, 25, even 100 handguns. No questions asked, no registration of the handguns or buyer, no responsibility to report them sold, lost or stolen - no problem.

Actually I belive a form has to be submitted to the BATF because of the multiple purchase.

Under federal law, a purchaser can then sell to others without even doing a record check.

Not true for a handgun.

This joker is a law professor??? Maybe he should check out the GCA (Gun Control Act) posted on the ATF website.

Car Knocker
October 17, 2006, 10:58 PM
Double tap

Car Knocker
October 17, 2006, 10:59 PM
Quote:
Under federal law, a purchaser can then sell to others without even doing a record check.


Not true for a handgun.


Federal law does not require a background check for non-dealer (face-to-face) handgun sales within a state.

TrybalRage
October 17, 2006, 11:07 PM
My admittedly heated letter:

Mr. Kairys editorial was so far off base it was almost laughable, and I say almost because it is frightening how many people believe the erroneous information he is spouting. The facts that a) he has a soapbox to yell from, and b) is a law professor are frightening as well, because one would hope that a person in his position would want to get his facts straight.

He is mistaken on state law, federal law, and his comments regarding "the biggest and most consistent threat to urban safety and public health over the last several decades". I would argue that cars are much, much, deadlier and more frequently involved in injury and death.

He complains about the 'assault weapon' ban expiring, when no one can really define what an 'assault weapon' actually is. He complains about the number of permit holders in Philadelphia as if they were the ones actually committing crimes with guns... as if a criminal would actually bother with a permit at all!

He claims that legislatures are not moved by citizen protests, I disagree! My Representative removed himself as a co-sponsor from 2 different gun-control bills that were introduced after I wrote him a scathing email regarding his decisions. Our legislature is listening just fine.

Mr. Kairys attempts to demonize the NRA for not supporting the ban of 'cop killer' teflon coated bullets, and he fails to do the simplest research to discover why the NRA stood as it did against banning these rounds. Maybe it's because the Teflon doesn't aid a round in penetrating soft body armor. Maybe it's because soemthing as simple as Grandpa's old deer rifle can penetrate police vests, and there was nothing magical about those rounds. Maybe a law professor from Temple shouldn't believe everything he hears on TV. Maybe a professor should (gasp!) think for himself and read up on a topic if he feels so passionate about it.

Pennsylvania's legislature has listened to it's people, we don't want to start restricting firearm ownership and become a safe haven like Jersey City, New York, Washington DC or Baltimore. Oh wait, that's right, it's more dangerous in cities with stricter gun controls. Weird, huh?

Dave Hiddemen
Reading, PA

MartinBrody
October 17, 2006, 11:17 PM
The author of this nonsense says you can buy as many handguns as you want "no questions asked", well the ATF interprets the Gun Control Act a little differently, this is from the ATF website.

(F5) As a licensed dealer, must I advise ATF if I sell more than one handgun to an individual? [Back]

If you sell or dispose of more than one handgun to any non-licensee during a period of 5 consecutive business days, the sale must be reported on ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, not later than the close of the business day on which you sold or disposed of the second handgun. The licensee must forward a copy of the Form 3310.4 to the ATF office specified thereon, and another copy must be forwarded to the State police or local law enforcement agency where the sale occurred. A copy of the Form 3310.4 also must be attached to the firearms transaction record, ATF Form 4473, documenting the sale or disposition of the second handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(3), 27 CFR 478.126a]

This joker also claims the PA law prohibiting the sale of handguns between unlicensed individuals is 'obviously unenforceable'.

This is the PA law according to the NRA web site under gun laws.

Any individual or dealer selling a handgun is required to sell or transfer it at the place of business of a licensed dealer or county sheriff`s office. Transfers of all firearms (handguns, rifles and shotguns) by a licensed dealer are subject to an instant records check of the purchaser. The purchaser must sign a transfer application/record of sale for the purchase of a handgun.

I wonder what makes him think this prevents people from selling handguns illegally any more or less than any other law? I guess when someone in CA, NY or NJ sells a handgun illegally a little bell goes off in the police station telling them about it.

Please email this person and let them know what you think. I don't know if I can post his email address but you can easily find it by doing a search, David Kairys is a law professor at Temple University

MartinBrody
October 17, 2006, 11:20 PM
Federal law does not require a background check for non-dealer (face-to-face) handgun sales within a state.

Well PA law does, but that is unenforceable so it doesn't count.

Robert Hairless
October 18, 2006, 04:49 AM
David Kairys, James E. Beasley Professor of Law, joined the Law School faculty in 1990 after a career as a nationally recognized civil rights lawyer. He has written a range of books and articles, including The Politics of Law (3rd ed., Basic Books, 1998), a leading book of legal criticism he edited and co-authored, and With Liberty and Justice for Some (New Press, 1993). He is also a frequent commentator in national and local media. In 1996 Professor Kairys conceived the city lawsuits against handgun manufacturers, and he has been on the city teams in most of the cases. He litigated the leading race discrimination and harassment case against the FBI, stopped police sweeps of minority neighborhoods in Philadelphia, and represented Dr. Benjamin Spock in a free speech case before the Supreme Court. His columns have appeared in major periodicals, and he has been profiled in the Chronicle of Higher Education, Wall Street Journal, and Philadelphia Inquirer Sunday Magazine.

That's from his faculty biography on the web site for Temple University's Beasley School of Law. David Kairys is invested in the anti-gun movement and isn't a disinterested person. It even would be fair to say that Kairys is a Philadelphia lawyer. :) (Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity to say that.)

Master Blaster
October 18, 2006, 10:35 AM
YHTOMIT

If they'd make the rational move and let a sales tax replace the state income tax, I might consider becoming a "PA person" -- it's a nice state, in many ways, even has four good seasons and some snowboard hills.


You live in Philadelphia and go to Temple Law????

You are unaware the PA has a sales tax?? Its 6%, Philly adds another percent making it 7%. Its been that way for a very long time.:)

Just so you know

K-Romulus
October 18, 2006, 02:20 PM
So far, it seems no responses have been published.

Edited to paste final version:

This went out:

I was surprised to see long-time gun control advocate and law
professor David Kairys make what I understand to be several incorrect
assertions regarding handguns and their sales in Pennsylvania, as well as on a host of other issues. Though not a Pennsylvania lawyer, I am knowledgeable of Pennsylvania law on these particular points.

It seems Prof. Kairys is unaware that 18 PA s.6111 requires that all
handguns sales at gun stores need both (1) a background check done on
the buyer (i.e., "licensing") and (2) the submission to the Pennsylvania State Police of paperwork concerning the handgun and the purchaser (i.e., "registration"). The same law requires that all handgun sales in Pennsylvania, new or used, follow this procedure and take place at either at a gun store or county sheriff's office, except for those transfers of ownership that take place between spouses, from parents to children, or from grandparents to grandchildren.

The State Police enter this purchaser and handgun information into a
handgun sales database that it has maintained since 1943. The purpose
of this database is to assist law enforcement in the event that handguns
registered in the database are used in crimes. Anyone who fails to
follow these handgun transfer procedures is guilty of a second-degree
misdemeanor, which is upgraded to a third-degree felony if they give a
handgun to anyone barred by law from owning one. If Prof. Kairys is aware
of this Pennsylvania handgun transfer regime, I am puzzled as to why he might believe it may be any less enforceable than any other gun registration system.

Prof. Kairys laments the overturning of a city-level ban on so-called
"assault weapons." He must be unaware that the ban did nothing to
reduce the legal availability of firearms having the exact same rate of fire,
and using the exact same ammunition, as the banned "assault weapons."

Prof. Kairys also complains about concealed handgun permits being
fairly issued in Philadelphia, using a process that removes any risk of
cronyism and political patronage from the system while ensuring a
thorough vetting of applicants. He then asserts that permit-holders
"often" abuse their rights. However, out of the 28,000 reported
Philadelphia concealed handgun permit holders, and over 600,00
statewide, Prof. Kairys can reference only one specific incident from
almost seven years ago (See "Deadly clash in the snow," Philadelphia
Daily News, January 27, 2000), while vaguely alluding to possibly one other incident. The truth is, concealed handgun permit holders, who go through a second state police background check after the initial handgun purchaser background check, a background check that includes personal references, similar to the process for a New Jersey gun ownership permit, are among the least likely residents to commit any type of crime.

Last, Prof. Kairys also repeats the urban legends concerning so-called
"Teflon bullets" and the NRA's position on "armored piercing ammunition." No handgun-caliber ammunition can penetrate police body armor simply because it has an additional layer of Teflon on it. The NRA opposed the original federal bill to outlaw "armored piercing ammunition" because the bill was too vague, but it supported the law that was eventually passed (See
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=55).

I do agree with Prof. Kairys in one regard: there are steps that can be taken to combat urban crime that do not require confiscating legally-owned firearms, or placing undue burdens upon those seeking private firearms ownership. The most obvious step being enforcement of existing laws.

DKSuddeth
October 18, 2006, 02:58 PM
The appearance of several thousand Pennsylvanians at the state legislature a couple weeks ago was unusual, perhaps historic.

They were there to ask the legislature to reconsider laws that make Pennsylvania one of the least-regulated states in the country for buying handguns. Among the people who traveled to Harrisburg were the mayors of nine cities from around the state - and from Trenton and New York City. Pennsylvania has become a source for criminals in surrounding states to buy handguns for use in crimes.

How far we've fallen. A little over 200 years ago, an entirely different set of values was championed in this place. :(

Stickjockey
October 18, 2006, 03:18 PM
Pennsylvania has become a source for criminals in surrounding states to buy handguns for use in crimes...

...almost anyone without a criminal record can walk into a gun store in Pennsylvania and walk out with as many handguns as his or her credit card or cash can pay for.

...a purchaser can then sell to others without even doing a record check.

Intimating that criminals are doing interstate transfers of handguns without going through a FFL.

Now correct me if this is wrong, but isn't there a Federal Law that prohibits this?

ZeSpectre
October 18, 2006, 03:54 PM
My own response sent to Mr. Kairys
------------------------------------------

Mr. Kairys,
I just read your recent article "On guns, lawmakers are accountable"
( http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/opinion/local1/15777140.htm )

While not in complete agreement with you, I do appreciate your stance and the overall approach you take in your article. However there are a few items that I would like to address.

1) You state that "For American cities generally, handguns have been the biggest and most consistent threat to urban safety and public health over the last several decades." In a country of (roughly) 3 hundred million people, I would very much like to see references to your supporting data, especially compared to heart disease, automobiles, and air pollution. I simply cannot take this statement at face value.

2) Another item you mention "But the NRA takes extreme positions that often have little backing - opposing, for example, prohibition of Teflon-coated "cop-killer" bullets that can pierce bullet-proof vests."

Once again a favored myth rears it's ugly head. The sole purpose of a teflon coated bullet was as a barrel lubricant to reduce wear and tear. Adding a teflon coating does nothing to alter the penetration capability of a bullet and this has been prooven repeatedly in scientific testing.

Also, teflon coated bullets have, to the best of my knowledge, never been used to kill a law enforcement officer and therefore the "cop killer" tag is a falsehood. (If you can provide me proof that is contrary to this I will change my stance.)

Finally, yes the NRA (along with the FBI, and BATF by the way) opposed the origional vaguely-worded (and essentially unenforcable) form of the prohibition on "cop killer" bullets because it showed little understanding of the subject. However the NRA was one of the key forces in developing the final, approved, version of the bill (H.R. 3132) which prohibits the sale of ACTUAL armor piercing ammunition (not mythical "cop killer" rounds). I fail to see how that is an extreme position when even Representative Mario Biaggi of NY (who was the origional bill's sponsor) was pleased by the final outcome.

I respect your position (though I do not share it) but would encourage you to use more care and research in the future so that you make accurate and supported statements when composing your arguments.

yhtomit
October 18, 2006, 11:32 PM
"You live in Philadelphia and go to Temple Law????

You are unaware the PA has a sales tax?? Its 6%, Philly adds another percent making it 7%. Its been that way for a very long time.

Just so you know"

Yes, there sure is a sales tax -- and it's not an especially low one, either. But when I said "let a sales tax replace the state income tax," that's just what I meant :)

I've lived in several states (intentionally -- this was high on the list of criteria) where there's a sales tax, but no income tax, and I like it that way. I'd rather pay (just an example, random numers) a straight 11% sales tax than a cumulative 10% tax split 50-50 between sales tax and income tax.

Since I'm not making (much) money while in grad school, though, and spending a lot more than I earn, I can lump it until after school, when I will move elsewhere.

timothy

yhtomit
October 18, 2006, 11:35 PM
I dunno if it will run, but I at least got (and responded to) an emailed response from the paper that my reply to Kairy's opinion piece (above in this thread) is being considered for publication, and I provided the requisite information to let it happen if it's selected.

(Fingers crossed)

timothy

K-Romulus
October 23, 2006, 12:17 PM
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/15825058.htm

Posted on Mon, Oct. 23, 2006

Letters

. . .

Gun sales not problem

Re: "On guns, lawmakers are accountable," Oct. 17:

David Kairys' claim that there are "no questions asked" of gun purchasers in Pennsylvania doesn't match my experience as a purchaser, or state law. The handguns I've purchased in Pennsylvania required me to undergo national and state background checks, as do all retail firearms sales in the state, and to prove that I was a Pennsylvania resident.

It's true that Pennsylvania doesn't keep a registry of handguns (or any firearms, for that matter). Probably, that's at least in part because Pennsylvanians know such registries have been used in recent history to identify gun owners and require them to give up their registered weapons - not just in places like Nazi Germany a few decades ago, but in New York into the present day.

If Kairys would like to see fewer gun deaths in Pennsylvania, perhaps he should clamor for more citizens to apply for and obtain permits for concealed carry; studies show that permit holders are law-abiding, and their presence means that armed criminals can't be as confident of unarmed victims.

Timothy Lord

Harrisburg

Score one for the team . . .

ZeSpectre
October 23, 2006, 01:23 PM
Way to go!

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