[Oleg Volk]

I am looking for suggestions on a carry gun for a close friend:

Max weight: 25oz loaded, preferably under 20oz
Trigger pull no heavier than 8lbs, preferably less
Recoil level no greater than CZ75, preferably less

Caliber, barrel length are subordinate to the requirements listed above. Cocked and locked or DAO or DA are all OK. Reliability is important, but durability isn't -- it is not likely that practice would exceed 500 rounds per year.

User cannot rack a very heavy slide but has no problems with Glock 17 (i.e. Marakov or Bersa 380 are out). User limp-wrists guns with strong muzzle flip, so Kahr P9 or Glock 26 are out. Current hourse gun is a .22 autoloader (Buckmark) which is on the heavy side.

Revolvers are out for various reasons., the main being that the trigger pull in DA is too heavy.

Glock 26 with a rimfire slide would work but I am not keep on her carrying a rimfire gun. Ideally, it would be a centerfire locked breech in 380 or 9x19 (something like Steyr S9) or blowback in 32. Unfortunately, I do not have an S9 available for a test range session. Anyhow, I may be overlooking specific models which have all the above-listed qualities, so help me out.

[axeman_g]

Steyr M9??? Or is size an issue also?

[cslinger]

How about a beretta Jetfire/Bobcat/Tomcat/whatever the heck those itty bitty little tip up barrel .32s are called.

No slide to rack, tiny, shouldn't be too too much recoil.

So a .32 magnum revolver is out huh?

Glock 19? Maybe a bit heavy or big.

Yeah, I am gonna have to go with the Tomcat. Reasonable round, better than harsh language anyway.

Light and easy to conceal.

Well made.

Stainless finish is tough and more resistent to abuse.

Single action trigger, so light weight.

.32 Shouldn't kick too much if so go for one of the .25 calibers.

My neighbor has a Tomcat and seems to really like it. I am sure I could borrow it if you would like to try it out.
http://www.beretta.com/home_2002.asp

[Oleg Volk]

That may be a solution. One issue is that the slide might bite the web of the hand. Need to try them out.

[prisoner6]

Sig 230 in .32 ACP?

Lightweight, light recoil.

[cslinger]

If I remember correctly I don't think it will bite her unless she has pretty beefy hands but it has been quite some time since I handled one.

What about a revolver with a reasonably aggressive trigger job done or a revolver with an exposed hammer so she could cock the hammer back. That shouldn't take much more time or effort than thumbing a safety.

What about a Derringer in .32 or something to that effect. Once again not the best option but better than insults and slaps.

Going the other direction what about Freeze +P and a blade? Would require more training but can be a mighty effective combination.

I keep coming back to a Single Action .32 magnum Ruger with birds head grips. It would require some practice to use effectively but should offer a nice mix of power vs recoil vs concealability vs durability and reliability. Triggers don't get much lighter than that.

[cslinger]

The slide on a SIG 230/232, Mak, PP etc. can be a beast to rack if you have very little hand strength.

[Jim Watson]

Uh, what was wrong with the G17? You said she could rack the slide and it wasn't on the limp wrist list.

Anyhow, I suggest a Colt Government .380 - the "full size" steel frame gun, not a Mustang, not a pocketlite.

It is small and rather light but the good grip shape and locked breech keep the recoil down. Trigger pull can be as light as you and the gunsmith wish, mine is right at 4 pounds. Racking the slide can be eased by cocking the exposed hammer first. Once upon a time .380 cal was enough for the Dutch and Italian armies, and not that far behind the Mak. There was a women's shooting program that used them; enough more powerful than a .22 to feel like a "real gun" without being unmanageable.

There are two problems:
Colt isn't cooperating, they are not in production and good used ones aren't cheap.
It is a SA auto and will take more training and practice to master the cocked and locked gun. I do NOT recommend Condition 2 or 3 for someone of marginal strength who might fumble or slip under stress.

[sm]

Beretta .380 with the tip up bbl . comes to mind first.

Even with the criteria, I have had ladies that even though they swore/ they couldn't -wouldn't even consider going outside criteria...have no problem with a Kimber Pro Carry. I know of two persons with carpal tunnel that carry and use . One is actually a male, with arthritis to boot in his fingers....

Recoil is a 'shove', weight carries well in a good holster/belt combo, and using the push /pull method, charging the gun is easy. Mag change, from slide lock, even mal drills are fine. Even though seeing the rear sight and the high heel method in a dress is ...different, it works.

[Ian]

How about a Colt 1903? Most are in .32, but there are some around in .380. My mother and sister both like mine...the recoil is quite mild, it has a 4" barrel (better than most .32s), and has a long but thin grip (allows a solid grip, but not too large for people with small hands. Capacity is 8+1, has a grip safety and manual safety, and a fully shrounded hammer. The slide is pretty easy to run (definitely better than Makarovs and the like).

[DonGlock26]

G-19

[Penforhire]

She might be able to overcome the cocking force limitation using a custom holster? A model you can push the hardware down in to rack the slide?

[BevrFevr]

-bevr

[Oleg Volk]

Colt 32/380 was on my list for ages, though I was underwhelmed with their performance and they do have a magazine disconnector. My friend just ordered a Steyr M9, decided to try a 9x19 so long as the boreline is low over the grip.

[Sox]

Oleg, don't laugh, but the HK USP fullsize in 9mm is very light with respect to recoil/control. Quick follow up shots. Most importantly, it was the easiest for my S.O. to load with respect to racking the slide. Most other autos were too stout. At least give it a try. They can found at the shows for 450.00 or so with patience. Good luck.:)

[modifiedbrowning]

Walther P99!

[cratz2]

I know you said no revolvers, but a DAO revolver in 38 Special really sounds like the best answer to me. You could have someone like Teddy Jacobson work over the action to get an excellet double action pull if he didn't have to worry about the single action pull. http://www.actionsbyt.com

[TheMariner]

P99 might fit the profile... I own a .40 but that might kick too much... since you say caliber doesn't matter... go with a 9mm

[yzguy]

if .32acp is ok, the P-32 could be the ticket.... our you could also wait a bit and see about the P-3AT.

[HBK]

Walther P-99 9mm. All german if you can get it. It's guaranteed to fit the hand, what with the 2 extra backstraps.

[Nathan Alexander]

I agree on the P99. By far the best 9mm I have ever had the priviledge of firing!

[New_comer]

How about the following:

1) HS2000 - maybe the compensated type, supposed to help control muzzle rise (but a chore to clean). Very nice DAO/SA trigger, with grip and trigger safety, loaded chamber indicator.

2) Glock 19 - if the G17 is ok and the G26 is out, this one's mid-sized. Caution on the lack of manual safety though, but a good holster will just about cover that...

3) P99 - a lot of good feedback here, plus the option to change grip to fit shooter

4) BUL Cherokee - I don't know if this is available there, but I've got a friend who has one and he's satisfied with it, CZ-like controls in a polymer frame.

5) Bernardelli - Another exotic gun, Turkish-made polymer CZ clone. Had a good impression at the last gun show. Saw several at the range, and the owners had no complaints. Available in pastel colors ;)

6) Jericho 941 - Israeli made CZ clone. I've seen the steel-framed version in action, and it worked fine. I believe they also come in polymer frame verson

7) CZ110 if available, (not the CZ100 - awful trigger!) SA/DA, low bore axis.

8) Last but definitely not least, the HKUSP compact (just had to plug that in :D). Runt's got one, may tell your friend something good about it. ;)

[Oleg Volk]

I had the same friend who uses G26 test-fire my USP9c -- she had more trouble with it. The muzzle rise is sharp and the grip texture is sharp.

The order of M9 got delayed. While they were figuring out which distributor had one, we talked some more and decided to figure out the carry solution first (IWB or off-body are out, bellyband is probably out, that leaves pocket or belt/padle). Once those options are figured out, it will either be an M9, or a P99 or something similar...or a Jetfire or something of that type for pocket carry. Colt Govt.380 or Llama Micromax 380 ought to fit the bill well but neither has better than 50% positive reviews from its owners.

[valnar]

If limpwristing is a problem on any "good" self-defense caliber (like 9mm or better), I'd really like the know the objections to a revolver? Recommending mouse guns for CCW or self defense doesn't help either.

A decent DAO Smith & Wesson with an 8# trigger job would be a good answer.

Robert

[HBK]

For what it's worth, I let a lady friend of mine use my P-99 at the range. She has some serious issues with "limpwristing". When she limpwristed her gun, it would jam. When she limpwristed my P-99, it still fired flawlessly. I don't know if that is always the case, but that's what I saw that day.
(Her gun was a glock, by the way)

[George Hill]

No one suggest a compact Springfield XD?


Amazing. :scrutiny:

[WhoKnowsWho]

I am voting for the P32, will be the easiest for her to carry everywhere and everyday. My wife doesn't have a problem pulling the slide back on it, while a P-99 is a bit hard. If she has large enough pockets, she could carry it with the extended magazine and be able to easily hold onto it.

[Brian Williams]

Ruger single six with a birds head grip in 32 mag
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/73L.gif

[Dr.Rob]

I was thinking Colt .32 as well, but I'd be leary of a piece that old as a primary.

Beretta made a nice .380 that was light and not at all snappy, don't recall the slide being hard to operate.

That Colt 380 Govt can be a handful to fire, and the sights are not very good, it is however easy to cock.

[sm]

George, I think you and I are on the same page.

Often times the "small" guns due to size and design are just difficult to rack, snappy with recoil, and have awful trigger pulls. Can't do much with them as one can with a larger platform.

again IMO.

[firestar]

would a kel-tec p32 work?

Probably not.

Oh! You meant, would it fit the needs he is asking about. I thought you were asking if it would function.:D

[Berg01]

Check Out This Kahr PM9;

Kahr PM9 (http://www.kahr.com/new_pm9094.html)

[Berg01]

More Kahr PM9 Info (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/perfect_pocket_protection/)

[Sean Smith]

Try reading the post: no revolvers and no Kahr P9.

[Sean Smith]

Random thought: A Kahr K9 (the all steel version) is only 23 ounces. The trigger shouldn't be too heavy and the recoil when I shot it was pretty mild for the size, though probably more than a steel CZ-75B. Only question might be the weight of the recoil spring.

Otherwise... I dunno. Maybe a Beretta Cheetah variant?

[rauchman]

Surprised no one has mentioned the Sig 225 or 239. It is reasonably light, holds 8+1 rounds of 9mm. Is slim and the recoil is not bad at all.

[Berg01]

User limp-wrists guns with strong muzzle flip, so Kahr P9 or Glock 26 are out.

This is another case where the gun is expected to correct weak shooting skills. Limp-wristing will cause any semi-automatic to jam on a regular basis. If this person needs a DECENT CCW gun with a loaded weight of 20 oz. or less, then my advice is to practice until the limp-wristing problem is corrected!

[Richard]

Oleg Volk, I will second the Kahr K9 or K40. I own both and i like them both. I am picky and I am considering The kahr K40 for a year around carry piece. My K40 was just revamped by Marianne Carniak of the Accurizer gunshop in Troy, MI. Regards, Richard:D

[Oleg Volk]

I enjoy Kahrs BUT one of the requirements is a short trigger travel (a la P7M8 or Glock). At this time, the purchase is on hold -- holster will be selected first, then the gun to fit it. May have to be a revolver, as my friend said she's been working out and has more hand strength now than before -- so a Taurus 713 or an equivalent S&W might work...and that also opens the options on autoloaders. In short, will have to try lots of them and see what works. Which gun or caliber it is would be less important than "always with her" and "can hit accurately" aspects. A Glock 26 in .32acp would be just about ideal ;)

[CWL]

I tend to think of the .32ACP as a back-up gun, caliber.

For primary defense, can you get her up to a 9mm? A G19 seems the best compromise for carry & HD, plus weight and your requisite trigger-travel. I'm sure that, with your coaching, the Glock trigger will not be a safety issue.

[Richard]

Oleg Volk, please excuse the length of this post. This was my experience in helping Wendy a small woman from another board select a handgun.

"I met Wendy, her husband, and two of her daughters at Woverine Sports. I brought my Taurus PT111, S&W Model 37, Glock 27 with a 9mm Bar-sto barrel, Bulgie Mak, Kel-tec P32, stainless Kahr K9, and "the Frog". I also brought holsters for these to be tried by Wendy. She seems to favor the belly band idea.

The Frog is an E9 that was completely redone. The work was by Marianne Carniak owner of "the Accurizer Gunshop" in Troy, MI.

The order of the day was Wendi rejected handguns for very good reasons and the opted for a Kahr E9. The trigger pull on my PT111 was too heavy. She didn't like the feel of my M37 with Eagle Secret Service grips. I am sure the grip on the Glock 27 is too big for her and she wanted more than two fingers on the grip. Wendi had difficulty pulling the double action trigger on the Bulgie. I am not sure if she rejected the Kel-tec P32 because it
didn't feel like a gun or due to the recoil.

Wendi then kissed the Frog and its sibling. It was love at first pull. She enjoyed these two pistols and shot both well. The Frog has checkering on its front strap and the K9 has skateboard tape. She wanted to know what the difference was? I told her about $200.

The shop has a really nice E9 for about $430. It has better sights than the Frog had, a better trigger, and rubber grips that are the one used on the standard line. When I left Wendi was finalizing the sale with Wolverine and seeing if her husband agreed with her.

A fun time was had by all. I enjoy helping people and doing range instruction."

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Richard:D