FBI director wants ISPs to track users


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Manedwolf
October 18, 2006, 11:34 AM
Better keep that anonymous proxy up 24/7... Big Brother's eye is getting closer. And closer...

Just think. Every posting to a gun board, every ammo purchase, all able to be browsed by people wondering just why you're ordering So Much Ammo... Why, you might be a TERRORIST.

Declan McCullagh, for News.com
FBI Director Robert Mueller on Tuesday called on Internet service providers to record their customers' online activities, a move that anticipates a fierce debate over privacy and law enforcement in Washington next year.

"Terrorists coordinate their plans cloaked in the anonymity of the Internet, as do violent sexual predators prowling chat rooms," Mueller said in a speech at the International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Boston.

"All too often, we find that before we can catch these offenders, Internet service providers have unwittingly deleted the very records that would help us identify these offenders and protect future victims," Mueller said. "We must find a balance between the legitimate need for privacy and law enforcement's clear need for access."

The speech to the law enforcement group, which approved a resolution on the topic earlier in the day, echoes other calls from Bush administration officials to force private firms to record information about customers. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, for instance, told Congress last month that "this is a national problem that requires federal legislation."

Justice Department officials admit privately that data retention legislation is controversial enough that there wasn't time to ease it through the U.S. Congress before politicians left to campaign for re-election. Instead, the idea is expected to surface in early 2007, and one Democratic politician has already promised legislation.

Law enforcement groups claim that by the time they contact Internet service providers, customers' records may be deleted in the routine course of business. Industry representatives, however, say that if police respond to tips promptly instead of dawdling, it would be difficult to imagine any investigation that would be imperiled.

It's not clear exactly what a data retention law would require. One proposal would go beyond Internet providers and require registrars, the companies that sell domain names, to maintain records too. And during private meetings with industry officials, FBI and Justice Department representatives have cited the desirability of also forcing search engines to keep logs — a proposal that could gain additional law enforcement support after AOL showed how useful such records could be in investigations.

A representative of the International Association of Chiefs of Police said he was not able to provide a copy of the resolution.

Preservation vs. retention

At the moment, Internet service providers typically discard any log file that's no longer required for business reasons such as network monitoring, fraud prevention or billing disputes. Companies do, however, alter that general rule when contacted by police performing an investigation—a practice called data preservation.

A 1996 federal law called the Electronic Communication Transactional Records Act regulates data preservation. It requires Internet providers to retain any "record" in their possession for 90 days "upon the request of a governmental entity."

Because Internet addresses remain a relatively scarce commodity, ISPs tend to allocate them to customers from a pool based on if a computer is in use at the time. (Two standard techniques used are the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol and Point-to-Point Protocol over Ethernet.)

In addition, Internet providers are required by another federal law to report child pornography sightings to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which is in turn charged with forwarding that report to the appropriate police agency.

When adopting its data retention rules, the European Parliament approved U.K.-backed requirements saying that communications providers in its 25 member countries-several of which had enacted their own data retention laws already—must retain customer data for a minimum of six months and a maximum of two years.

The Europe-wide requirement applies to a wide variety of "traffic" and "location" data, including: the identities of the customers' correspondents; the date, time and duration of phone calls, VoIP (voice over Internet Protocol) calls or e-mail messages; and the location of the device used for the communications. But the "content" of the communications is not supposed to be retained. The rules are expected to take effect in 2008.

CNET News.com's Anne Broache contributed to this report

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Flyboy
October 18, 2006, 11:57 AM
Y'know, I asked a year or two ago, and I don't recall the question was ever answered.

What is THR's log-retention policy? What records are kept (Apache common, combined, or custom logs), and for how long? Are the backup tapes scrubbed of logs as well?

Just out of curiosity, but it is relevant to the story--even if the ISP keeps a record associating my account with a given IP address, and even if they can say I visited THR, nobody can say what I did without IP address (unless he's sniffing the traffic, which could be solved by going to an SSL server). The webserver logs are the link between a given post or pageview and an IP address.

Rumble
October 18, 2006, 12:04 PM
"We must find a balance between the legitimate need for privacy and law enforcement's clear need for access."


Wasn't that balance struck somewhere around Amendment IV? :scrutiny:

Pilgrim
October 18, 2006, 12:05 PM
This would mean the FBI could keep tabs on the Internet usage of congresscritters. The FBI hasn't had this much leverage over politicans since the days of J. Edgar Hoover.

Pilgrim

shooter503
October 18, 2006, 12:13 PM
I hope those guns went into the arms of people fighting the British government. Not criminals but those opposed to the English system of government.

I really wouldn't mind seeing those things in the arms of the IRA.

Quote from another thread. No comment.

Delta608
October 18, 2006, 12:13 PM
"Wasn't that balance struck somewhere around Amendment IV?"




Where is it written that the Gov't or anyone else for that matter, cannot record your written free speech..?? My friend, every aspect of your life is recorded for properity....Although there really are paranoid people who are being followed...!!:D

dfaugh
October 18, 2006, 12:19 PM
The biggest problem here is that its highly impractical, or outrageously expensive.

Keeping track of logins, sites visited and such isn't that big a deal. But to actually log all of the traffic across all of the activities between the user and the website, for any significant lenght of time, would take HUGE amounts of data storage space. The cost of internet access would go WAY up if the ISPs had too try an keep all of that data.

Rumble
October 18, 2006, 12:21 PM
Where is it written that the Gov't or anyone else for that matter, cannot record your written free speech..?? My friend, every aspect of your life is recorded for properity....Although there really are paranoid people who are being followed...!!


No, I understand that--there should be no expectation of privacy for any electronic communication. I was mostly going for the punchy one-liner. Actually, this issue--or the record retention part of it, at least--isn't really materially affected by the 4th, since I would assume that LE would still need to obtain a warrant to look at those records.

As for the collection of additional data--who I talked to, what I posted, etc.--if the ISP collects it and I take offense at that, my recourse is with the ISP, not the government. I'm not keen on "enhanced information gathering" on my Internet records (even though I have nothing to hide :D), but it's not really under my control.

I may just switch back to paper correspondence*--at least, with that, there is an expectation of some privacy since such correspondence is enclosed in an envelope and mail tampering is frowned upon.






* I will do no such thing. I'm more and more black-helicopter-paranoid every day, but I'm not crazy. Writing by hand is too much work.

shooter503
October 18, 2006, 12:41 PM
I imagine the Government only wants the transactions logged so that they can refer back to them if necessary in the future to establish links to suspicious correspondence.

The job of electronically examining the stored transactions would be enormous.

However, capability exists to monitor the internet, or selected parts of it, in real time to watch out for keywords, names, phrases. My guess is that the monitoring organisation would pick-up on a keyword then go back and examine all the stored data relating to that internet address (which is more than your log-in name).

This idea, of course, will not work because no terrorist is going to say "We will blow up the office tonight with a bomb". He is going to say something like "The meeting we arranged will take place as planned according to the schedule we discussed".

Only the dummies will be caught by this idea but to the government keeping the data is better than letting it be erased so they say keep it.

buzz_knox
October 18, 2006, 12:47 PM
Rumble and Delta have it. You have the right to speak whatever you wish, but no right to keep your public comments from being recorded by those who "hear" them. And if the service provider you use keeps a record of your coming and going, that's not a violation of your rights as you are using them as a medium to carry out your actions. You can't complain about the doorman remembering your comings and goings if you've asked him to open the door for you. If you've contracted with him to remain silent, that's a separate issue. But I don't think any ISP agreements contain confidentiality clauses on that issue.

Delta608
October 18, 2006, 12:51 PM
Im not EXACTLY sure but AOL and the like are required to keep emails for 180 days and are turned over without suponea. More recent correspondence requires court order....I could find out for sure if interested...Besides do a Google search on "Carnivore" (Spelling..??, FBI-Data mining), if ya want see something interesting....:p

DKSuddeth
October 18, 2006, 12:52 PM
I remember the days when the opinions of the people were what mattered to the politicians. Nowadays, all these speeches to military units, law enforcement agencies, and labor union groups makes me feel unwanted by my government. :scrutiny: :confused: :uhoh:

Soybomb
October 18, 2006, 01:29 PM
I'm a small ISP. They could legislate that we have to keep our logs of at least IP addresses assigned to users for a period of time. I wouldn't be happy but it would hardly constitute a record of what you did on the internet. If I were you guys I'd be worried about the larger ISP's the government is already in bed with. These are the people companies like mine buy service from.

For example, ATT, a major backbone provider for other ISPs has a nifty new database operation they call daytona http://www.research.att.com/~daytona/ It already has 312 TB of data in it and they say it can handle more. Filtering out images, video, programs, etc one could fit ALOT of users data for the course of a long time into a database of that size. We're talking like a year worth of use in a very searchable format perfect for data mining. And ATT is already well known to let the NSA have free access to their system.

pcosmar
October 18, 2006, 02:33 PM
I am not that paranoid, but I am not doing anything or saying anything that I worry about. If I wanted to, I can hide, reroute,camoflauge,or encript any internet message. I don't.
I like the idea of tracking the folks who want to KILL me. If the media would STFU, and let the terrorists talk, we can listen and learn. And stop them.
There is a Grandmother out west who was surfing Islamic websites, and caught some bad guys. Good deal. Hack them back.(I don't have the link handy).
I don't hide, I'm easy to find. Goggle "pcosmar". Don't steal my identity (you don't want to be me). or go ahead,I am on file with every gov agency.

Crosshair
October 18, 2006, 02:44 PM
Hmm, interesting Soybomb. The "Filtering out images, video, programs, etc" would be easy to defeat. In high school the admins would search the user accounts for *.mp3 files in their server disk space and delete them. The students, myself included, would simply rename the file to another extention. *.doc was the most common. I used the AutoCAD file extension since it was easier to justify a 5 meg CAD file than a doc file. Plus I knew the admins computer didn't have AutoCAD on it to actualy check the files.

It would be easy to create a browser/server software that will encode the data to a JPEG or AVI file. Heck, you could make it a Firefox plugin easily. Thus they would need to save ALL data going across the internet. I doubt that they could create a database that could manage all that data and search for data that is hidden in an image file. 99.9999999% of the time they would end up with the latest porn site I have found. Not to mention that many places offer free internet to customers and there is software that lets you change your MAC address.

SoCalShooter
October 18, 2006, 02:49 PM
They should definetly be allowed to monitor public servents such as congressmen and senators and other high officials, average public servents workers and such should not be monitored.

Soybomb
October 18, 2006, 05:21 PM
The students, myself included, would simply rename the file to another extention. *.doc was the most common. I used the AutoCAD file extension since it was easier to justify a 5 meg CAD file than a doc file. Plus I knew the admins computer didn't have AutoCAD on it to actualy check the files.

It would be easy to create a browser/server software that will encode the data to a JPEG or AVI file. Heck, you could make it a Firefox plugin easily. Thus they would need to save ALL data going across the internet. I doubt that they could create a database that could manage all that data and search for data that is hidden in an image file. 99.9999999% of the time they would end up with the latest porn site I have found. Not to mention that many places offer free internet to customers and there is software that lets you change your MAC address.
__________________
As time has went on network devices have gotten far better at actually ripping open packets as they fly past to determine what is actually taking place. We used to just have to go by port numbers and the like but with things like cisco's nbar its easy to build rules that will defeat older attempts at hiding activity. Really encryption is the best solution and won't require any plug ins at all since all web browsers already support secure connections.

Changing your mac won't do anything btw, that doesn't make it to the internet. Your isp assigns you an ip address and that is what the internet gets. Your isp probably keeps a log of who had what ip address at what time and date.

I am not that paranoid, but I am not doing anything or saying anything that I worry about.
Most of us don't buy into the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" thinking. You can put as much faith into the government to remain honest as you want, but personally I don't have any.

dragongoddess
October 18, 2006, 05:26 PM
Ah to heck with it. Just burn the damn Constitution and get it over with. The terrorists have already won. One really has to wonder why all the speeches to military and police agencies. Are they being programed for a future action against the people of the United States.

Henry Bowman
October 18, 2006, 05:32 PM
One word: Anomymizer.com ;)

Autolycus
October 18, 2006, 05:48 PM
Originally posted bydfaugh:

The biggest problem here is that its highly impractical, or outrageously expensive.

Keeping track of logins, sites visited and such isn't that big a deal. But to actually log all of the traffic across all of the activities between the user and the website, for any significant lenght of time, would take HUGE amounts of data storage space. The cost of internet access would go WAY up if the ISPs had too try an keep all of that data.

This is why the government wants the ISP to do it. The ISP will pay for it and deal with all of the hassle.

Eitherway, I dislike the fact that the government wants to try and do this. It seems that Bush and Co. are trying harder and harder to take our rights away. I think that it will be getting worse and worse as the sheep listen to the arguments made in the name of their safety.

GunnySkox
October 18, 2006, 05:51 PM
I hope Robert Mueller gets hit by a bus.

And I hope every ISP tells him to get bent, too.

~GnSx

Delta608
October 18, 2006, 05:52 PM
Quote "Eitherway, I dislike the fact that the government wants to try and do this. It seems that Bush and Co. are trying harder and harder to take our rights away. I think that it will be getting worse and worse as the sheep listen to the arguments made in the name of their safety"


Got news for ya, data mining had been implemented long before G.W. showed up....The axe you have to grind isnt here....:neener: :p

alan
October 18, 2006, 06:00 PM
Re the director's desires, it would be very nice to see ISP's tell him to "go pound salt".

I doubt that I/we shall see/hear any such statement or advise from ISP's to the director, sad to note, however I do believe it would be something to behold.

Standing Wolf
October 18, 2006, 06:02 PM
I'm sure America could get along without the F., the B., and the I. a lot easier than freedom of speech.

Derek Zeanah
October 18, 2006, 06:18 PM
What is THR's log-retention policy? What records are kept (Apache common, combined, or custom logs), and for how long? Are the backup tapes scrubbed of logs as well?
Well, I'm my own web host, so everything's run about the same: Apache logs are kept until they rotate off because they're too big. Less than 2 weeks
Backups are off-site @ my house; currently that's at about 3 weeks worth of data, though if I ever get around to upgrading my RAID array I'd like to bump it to 6 months or so.
I'm one of those "not without an order signed by a judge, you won't" types. For what it's worth.Your bigger worry is vBulletin. It tracks anything useful, like every IP address you've posted from, etc. Of course, you can't run an effective forum without those tools or you lose to spammers and trolls, but it's there anyway.

Now, I'm not of the opinion that any of that really matters. If you believe massive internet surveillance is (or will eventually be) going on, then you can expect packets to be logged at choke-points around the internet. It's surprising what some of those commercial monitoring packages (the sort that run on a rack full of blades) can piece together, whether it's web visits, or VoIP packets, or whatever else.

As an aside, I'm -><- this close to starting an electronic privacy blog/forum. Any interest? It's really not THR material I'm afraid, though I think it's equally important.

ProguninTN
October 18, 2006, 06:23 PM
I guess "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" is out the window. I suppose now we are all criminals who havent' been apprehended, yet. :rolleyes:

MechAg94
October 18, 2006, 06:24 PM
So when they find my searches are for "simpson", "hewitt", "milano", and "heigl", what will that mean in terms of law enforcement? :D

taliv
October 18, 2006, 06:29 PM
i'd be interested.

Gunfire
October 18, 2006, 07:06 PM
Here's Mueller's boss telling us how he is going to classify US citizens (home-grown) as terrace. Note he says they need say nothing.

"They can train themselves over the Internet. They never have to necessarily go to the training camp or speak with anybody else and that diffusion of a combination of hatred and technical skills in things like bomb-making is a dangerous combination," Chertoff said.

Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the Internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Monday. (http://rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Fs%2Fnm%2F20061017%2Fwr_nm%2Fsecurity_chertoff_dc%3B_ylt%3DAq31AQx4TKjh9chd4l0E4ZQjtBAF%3B_ylu%3DX3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-)

dragongoddess
October 18, 2006, 07:19 PM
Well I'm toast. My recent searches have been AK's,scopes,ammo,mags, and other firearm related subjects.

hvengel
October 18, 2006, 07:37 PM
In addition to web browsers having fairly secure encryption you can also make your email messages secure by using a good encryption system such as GNU Privacy Guard which is what the NSA uses and this is way more secure than anything that is used by browsers. GPG is Open Source and FREE. Many email packages (not Microsofts) now have good integration with GPG. Sending and reading encrypted emails is very straight forward when these are setup correctly. For those not running an NSA approved OS you can purchase commercial software named PGP and it will integrate with commercial email readers such as those from Microsoft. With GPG or PGP encryped email the most .gov would be able to find out is who you communicated with and not what was written unless they get a court order to disclose your private key (IE. they can not do this without you knowing about it). Also the encrypted/signed messages produced by GPG and PGP can be read by the other software since they are based on the same standards if you limit GPG to the smaller key sizes the PGP supports.

If anything this is actually more secure than using regular mail. After all if .gov wants to see what is in your regular mail all they have to do is open the envelope and read. With properly encrypted email the process is much more difficult since it takes a huge amount of computational resources to "open the envelope" (IE. decrypt the message). PGP will support keys up to 2048 bits and GPG will support keys up to 4096 bits. By the way for those of you new to this it is 3.2317 * 10^616 (2^2024) times as hard to break a 4096 bit encrypted message as the 2048 a encrypted message.

Also you should think of any unencrypted email as being the electronic equivalent of a post card. If you would send the same thing enclosed in an envelope in the regular mail you should encrypt it if it is email.

Old Dog
October 18, 2006, 09:06 PM
Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the Internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Monday.
I'm thinking that the "Department of Pre-Crime" in that recent Tom Cruise movie, "Minority Report" (based on the story by the great Philip K. Dick) is close to reality ... But we don't need the psychics, we've got the Internet.

cosine
October 18, 2006, 09:28 PM
As an aside, I'm -><- this close to starting an electronic privacy blog/forum. Any interest? It's really not THR material I'm afraid, though I think it's equally important.
I'm definitely interested.

Manedwolf
October 18, 2006, 10:11 PM
Definitely interested in a privacy forum. Seriously, if they do ham-handed datamining, what sort of flags could be slapped on someone who likes guns and reads gun sites, and perhaps also believes in "know thy enemy" and likes to look at translated versions of Middle Eastern news sites to see how they're slanting events? Or if someone's PC is hijacked by a virus and used as a proxy by actual bad guys? I'm afraid this is going to be the electronic equivalent of SWAT raids on the wrong house.

To that end, there's a really simple and free anonymous system I'd recommend. Check out http://tor.eff.org/. It's a package called TOR, and there's an easy on/off Firefox plugin for it.

Even easier, a version of Firefox with it built in, Torpark, is at http://www.torrify.com/ That one can be installed on a keychain flashdrive and taken anywhere with you.

Sindawe
October 18, 2006, 10:25 PM
Another interested vote for Derek's idea of a privacy focused blog/forum.

I queried my ISP on what logs they keep (if any) of their customer's net traffic and the like. Since they are a small shop, they don't keep any logs outside of what their mail servers keep. What THEIR providers keep is another matter, since they purchase their bandwidth from QWest.

pcosmar
October 18, 2006, 10:26 PM
ManedWolf , good call on TOR. If you are woried about Virus Hijacking, Use a safer Operating System. It wont stop the tracking, but you can stop the hacking (cracking). Mac is better, Linux is best. You can tighten it up to NSA level security. SElinux was developed for the NSA.

CNYCacher
October 18, 2006, 10:27 PM
sorry, meant to be a new thread

mods, please delete

Lucky
October 18, 2006, 10:27 PM
What do Proxy's do, and could you still play video games on the internet through a router on a cable internet LAN if you have one?

51Cards
October 18, 2006, 10:42 PM
I've had some experience with the "Patriot" Act, re acquiring my pistol license. I'm very interested in ANYthing having to do with e- or any- privacy issues. Having had at least four Ammendments violated, and having gotten nothing but drivel from my "representative" congressnonpeople ...

gezzer
October 18, 2006, 10:52 PM
oversteping his bounds IMHO. Congress makes the laws

CornCod
October 18, 2006, 11:01 PM
That's why governments just love terrorism. It gives them an excuse to get rid of any liberties they find inconvienient and it gives them carte blanche to invade any country they like. The lemmings all rally around the flag, even if the flag is carried by a grade "A" con man, with either Dem. or Rep. after his name, it really dosen't matter.

Aguila Blanca
October 18, 2006, 11:04 PM
Actually, this issue--or the record retention part of it, at least--isn't really materially affected by the 4th, since I would assume that LE would still need to obtain a warrant to look at those records.
When dealing with governments, especially ... never EVER assume anything (except that they'll always do their best to screw you over).

Flyboy
October 19, 2006, 01:44 AM
Derek, not only am I in, but I'm volunteering to provide both server space and (substantial) bandwidth to the project, at no cost. PM me if you're interested.

As for THR's logs, I like your answers. A lot. Of course, were I truly paranoid, I'd assume you're a Fed, and lying to me, but, well, sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith. :D

Zedicus
October 19, 2006, 02:15 AM
That's why governments just love terrorism. It gives them an excuse to get rid of any liberties they find inconvienient and it gives them carte blanche to invade any country they like. The lemmings all rally around the flag, even if the flag is carried by a grade "A" con man, with either Dem. or Rep. after his name, it really dosen't matter.

Sad but all to True....

Derek Zeanah
October 19, 2006, 09:08 AM
Flyboy: I've got some servers and bandwidth already. ;)

I've got a spare box sitting around though -- not too speedy (2x P3, 512M RAM, 2x 18G SCSI), but enough for OpenBSD and being a TOR outproxy. How much bandwidth do you have available? ;)

One of the things I'm thinking about doing is taking donations to put up a few servers like this. I figure they'll be $100/month each, but ...

callgood
October 19, 2006, 10:27 AM
But, but.........

Everything's DIFFERENT now!

Back in the days when students were radical hippy commies, one suggestion I heard was that at a certain point everyone on campus should flush their toilet, the theory being that the change in pressure would destroy the sewer system or something. The theory was never tested, I guess someone asked, "Dude, what if I have to take a dump???????"

So if the Sturmführer AG and his minions get this going, what would be the result of millions of people, at a given moment, sending huge emails comprised of....
nukalar, makmoud, al queda, sadaam, pakistan, 5 kiloton, etc., etc.

Would SAC scramble?:evil:

Friggin border is wide open and these clowns are interested in my emails. Sheesh.

buzz_knox
October 19, 2006, 10:47 AM
Friggin border is wide open and these clowns are interested in my emails. Sheesh.

The existence of one major threat doesn't mean you don't look at other threats. We made that mistake during the Cold War and laid the seeds for a lot of the problems we have now.

We know that the terrs are sophisticated and using the internet. How to deal that in a constitutional manner should be the issue, not whether to do so.

LkWinnipesaukee
October 19, 2006, 11:24 AM
I'm into computers, but networking is my weakest area.

So what can be seen? My searches, posts to THR, what websites I visit? And that information is stored on the servers that host the site (I feel like an idiot for not knowing, since I host a website on this computer as well). So the government would like to take this information and use it against us?


So wouldnt a anon. proxy server solve all of this?


Anyone know of any good proxies?

pcosmar
October 19, 2006, 12:20 PM
LkWinnipesaukee,
"So what can be seen? My searches, posts to THR, what websites I visit? "
Try this, I just Googled your name
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=LkWinnipesaukee&btnG=Google+Search
And that is just Google, not an in depth search.

alan
October 20, 2006, 01:13 AM
pcosmar:

Having seen your post, LkWinnipesaukee,
"So what can be seen? My searches, posts to THR, what websites I visit? "
Try this, I just Googled your name
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search
And that is just Google, not an in depth search., I Googled myself.

There was a long listing of people with my name, some spelled differently. In only a single case, re several pages I looked at, was the guy mentioned, described or referenced ME.

Re this, I wonder as to how much value searching the internet would be, re actually finding someone. I admit to not knowing all that much about computers, being simply an end user, however seeing the results above mentioned, my question stands.

As to FBI snooping, that is another matter, though one wonders as to whether they could find themselves? It does seem that individual privacy is under serious threat, if any remains at all, though possibly not so much from the FBI. I submit that unchecked commercial data banks, poor data security, if there be any at all, along with a lot of bum data therein, might be more worrysome.

Of course, re privacy, what with the way many people bear their souls, in search of that fleeting "free Stuff", one wonders about many things.

Thin Black Line
October 20, 2006, 10:42 AM
Pretty much everything you do online or in public for the most part is
trackable. Short of a nationwide EMP burst and/or running around naked
in the woods, that's the way it's going to be.

I don't have any privacy --I've been in the military and more importantly,
I have kids.....

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