What are the avg N Korean soldiers issued for small arms


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Lonestar
October 18, 2006, 01:49 PM
Looks like the old AK-47. No Orange Mag. Hey You!! No Picture!!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/061015/ids_photos_wl/r4108396900.jpg

PS Hey admin..If I'm replying to the original poster, How come my response is first???

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offthepaper
October 18, 2006, 01:50 PM
What are the average North Korean soldiers issued for small arms? Are the still using AK47's or AK74's or something else. Also, what type of sidearms are the officers issued? Light, heavy MG's. Just wondering if their "comrades" have been upgrading them over the years.

SDC
October 18, 2006, 01:51 PM
Everything I've seen on them says they're still using 7.62x39, with their domestically-produced AKs (Type 68), and RPDs (Type 62). They might still issue their variants of the SKS (Type 63) and the PPsH (Type 49), and I'm sure they'd be using Their version of the Tokarev (Type 68) for sidearms.

buck00
October 18, 2006, 02:31 PM
This is the USMC North Korean Country Handbook.

http://www.dia.mil/publicaffairs/Foia/nkor.pdf

AK-47s, AK-74s, RPKs, RPK-74s, Tokarev and Makarov pistols. SVD rifles. They obviously have millions of SKS rifles (and Mosin-Nagants) in storage, which would be distributed en masse to the pesants during any war. (3.8 million reserves ready)

Overall, the hand book is a very interesting and scary assessment of NK's convention forces. 1.2 active military members, upwards of 5 million if you factor in reserves and civilians who would be called up to fight.

"The primary objective of North Korea's military strategy is to reunify the Korean Peninsula within 30 days of the beginning of hostilities."


The real threat of NK isn't their nukes, it's their conventional artillery:

"Jane's International Defense Review estimates that if North Korea launched an all-out barrage, it could achieve an initial fire rate of 300,000 to 500,000 shells per hour into the Seoul area -- home to about half of South Korea's 48.5 million people."

If it comes to war with NK, it's gonna be a huge sh-- sandwich and everyone is gonna have a take a big bite.

Jkwas
October 18, 2006, 02:42 PM
They have 1.5mil in the army but 500,000 guns

mp510
October 18, 2006, 02:52 PM
I have seen footage of NK troops marching with AK-74's equpped with grenade launchers.

Manedwolf
October 18, 2006, 03:02 PM
They obviously have millions of SKS rifles (and Mosin-Nagants) in storage, which would be distributed en masse to the pesants during any war.

That's worrying. 7.62x54R is 7.62x54R, and a tremendous "ouch" whether it comes from a Dragunov or thousands of old wooden "Noisy Magnets" poking out windows.

Sistema1927
October 18, 2006, 03:58 PM
Somebody will need to give the peasants a bowl of rice before they are able to take up arms. "Dear Leader" has been doing a really good job of starving them for the past few years.

usp9
October 18, 2006, 03:59 PM
I'm willing to wager a big chunk of their artillary installations have a bulls eye painted on them from eyes in the sky. The only way NK can move forces is to come out in the open where they are very vulnerable. SK is ready and so are the American units there. IMHO.

Creeping Incrementalism
October 18, 2006, 04:45 PM
I'm willing to wager a big chunk of their artillary installations have a bulls eye painted on them from eyes in the sky.

I'd bet they are housed in caves/bunkers/tunnels with enough overhead protection to stop most bombs.

Also, check out this photo from the PRK in the latest issue of Newsweek.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=46543&d=1161200971

Manedwolf
October 18, 2006, 04:59 PM
I have a feeling that this is not going to end well.

Bruce H
October 18, 2006, 05:16 PM
Arclights with large loads of 250gp's work wonders on caves, tunnels and bunkers. Don't have to rearange too much top soil to make entering and leaving a real problem. The real question is how fast is the responce time between comencing hostitilities and first counterstrike. We all know the good guys wouldn't do a Red Storm Rising first.

MudPuppy
October 18, 2006, 07:01 PM
Check my post on Poison Summer, Chapter 10 I think it is. :)

jnojr
October 18, 2006, 07:54 PM
Distributing weapons to millions of starving, repressed people sounds like a pretty good way for them to buy some more problems.

Most of the DPRK military consists of conscripts kept in place by fear. When the bombs start falling and lines of communication are cut, it will be tempting for any unit to shoot their officers and political commisars and run for the southern border. Once we smash up their armor and artillery and send the rest of their military running north, everyone who's left behind is going to have one item at the top of their list... 1) Do not become a subject of Kim Jong-Il again!

The first (or the beginning of) Korean War lasted four months from the time they sneak-attacked the South and steamrollered them, captured all but Pusan, were cut off by MacArthur's landing at Inchon, and got pushed all the way back to the Yalu. Only the intervention by the Red Chinese pushed us back to the environs of the 38th parallel and kept us there until a ceasefire was called. The Chinese aren't very likely to directly intervene today... they wouldn't be happy with a united, capitalist, Westernized Korea on their border, but they also do not want to cut off the Western market for all of their consumer goods, which is an enormous factor in their economy.

Either Kim Jong-Il truly believes the world will back down to him, or he doesn't care. No amount of talking is going to resolve this problem. Nobody wants a nuclear-armed North Korea, and South Korea and Japan couldn't tolerate that any more than Israel could accept a nuclear-armed Iran.

We will have to finish them off, well within two years from now. Otherwise, as soon as they have working atomic warheads and delivery systems, they're going to hold South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and the rest of the region hostage

No_Brakes23
October 18, 2006, 08:48 PM
Manedwolf said...I have a feeling that this is not going to end well.Uh, this thread, the current situation or the secret invasion I haven't heard about, that everyone here is apparently talking about?

50 Freak
October 18, 2006, 10:30 PM
Seeing how NK really relies upon China for food and arms. Cut the supply lines by threatening China where it really hurts and threaten to cut off all trade if they keep supplying NK and then back it up with Nukes if they refuse.

I can see NK, left with having to invade SK (and risk our nukes) for food as I believe it will take a few months before they start running out of food.

Remember an army marches on it's stomach. Take the food supplies from the NK, and it a matter of time before their military will turn Kim Jung ILL-minded into a pinata.

Bartholomew Roberts
October 18, 2006, 10:50 PM
For Official Use Only indicates that it is exempt from mandatory disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act. It may still be subject to disclosure (or not) depending on whether a legitimate government purpose is served by withholding the information.

Current classification policy encourages that documents that are no longer FOUO be struck through; but it isn't required for archived documents - so this may not actually be FOUO.

If it is FOUO, then the information is supposed to be granted a protected status by DIA where only authorized persons have access to it. We cannot be held responsible legally for the access and there are no legal penalties even for the person who put it on the DIA website (unless it somehow violated the Privacy Act); but he would probably be subject to administrative penalties.

In this case, I don't see the point in removing the link. If DIA wants it gone, they certainly have the means to do that and more likely the link is simply a released archive document where the FOUO hasn't been updated.

Prince Yamato
October 18, 2006, 11:02 PM
And more importantly, how come Pyongyang has open carry and Texas doesn't :D

Dave R
October 18, 2006, 11:13 PM
Yamato, you owe me a new keyboard. :D :D

Way to get to the point.

Headless Thompson Gunner
October 18, 2006, 11:22 PM
If war were ever to break out in Korea, the humanitarian disaster will equal the military disaster. The 1 million soldiers sent into South Korea will be accompanied by another one or two million starving refugees. Another one or two million starving refugees will progrably head north into China.

I suspect that the US and SK military can deal with NK's military. But the sudden surge of 2 million starving refugees could prove to be a major problem.

Tokugawa
October 19, 2006, 12:10 PM
It takes a working economy to run a war. They are a shambles. Everything is broken. I have read reports that when the Chinese sent an aid train loaded with food, the NK kept the trains as well, claiming they were part of the deal, cause thier own rolling stock was in such bad repair.

S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
October 19, 2006, 12:28 PM
Tokugawa is correct. An army marches on it's stomach. Sure they could flood South Korea with a million troops...then what? Most people are unable to fathom the logistics of supporting even a few hundred thousand troops.

Plus, one of the first things that the Allies would do would be to carpet bomb the DMZ 24/7 to shut down reinforcement and supply.

Bottom line is that a Second Korean war would cause heavy damage and casualties to the South, but the North would cease to exist. Then we could get our grubby hands on all those sweet NK SKS surplus rifles!

ozwyn
October 19, 2006, 12:49 PM
3 possible reasons China would not mind North Korea losing a future war to South Korea.

1) Rebuilding North Korea will put the brakes on South Korea's economic expansion. This means Key areas where China is beginnging to emerge into markets (like, cheap cars and more complicated electronic devlices) will be more vulnerable.

2) Rebuilding North Korea will require massive physical and technical resources. By trading off lack of military intervention China can buy itself massive contracts with South Korea, boosting the chinese economy and giving it a more western, developed image to the rest of the world.

3) North korea is a living, breathing reminder of the negative aspects of communism. It is like a big Tienamen square for the whole world to see. By taking an Anti-north Korea stand China can move a little closer to whitewashing darker elements of its past while continuing to develop its future as a economic superpower in the making.

China could very easily sell out North Korea and use the process to their advantage, gaining real incentives from the US, South Korea and Japan in the process. This would work extremely well to their goal of become a global economic superpower, while costing them nothing in the process.

China has already played the peacemaker card well, and by restarting the fence process and border checks can position themselves as a "progressive, westernized nation inthe world community" while still maintaining their political regime. (a fine piece of gamesmanship on their part, IMO)

I am never quite sure if China's rise is a real threat or just an interesting show, but it is a heck of a thing to watch.

AJ Dual
October 19, 2006, 01:20 PM
You and I are of the same mind.

I was composing some very similar points in my head until I saw your post.

Korean unification would be a huge economic burden on the South, and would reduce competition for China. ROK is going gangbusters without the North as it is. While a good thing geopoliticaly, reunification is only going to slow the South down immensely. Probably 10x the ammount the reunification burden with the East did to wealthy Western Germany.

North Korea is a drain on China, and an embarassment to them. China is almost done moving from "Communisim" to "Authoritarian Capitalisim with Communist window-dressing", and NK's hard-line Stalinist state is quite contradictory to that.

ozwyn
October 19, 2006, 02:20 PM
Thanks!

I am now of the opinion that China's real global strategic goal is to be an economic power equal or greater than the US, without necessarily the same entanglements, and without giving up the firm control over the rights of their citizens in the process.

Selling out north Korea means they can be considered "one of the good guys" by the US and Europe, while still buying cheap oil from Argentina and Iran. From a strategic standpoint, they have nothing to lose by not supporting North Korea, and quite a bit to gain.

Look at their Olympic development efforts, their space program, and even some of the counter-terrorism treaties with the US and their neighbors (many formally with negative relations with China). China is trying to step into the world stage as a superpower without the cold-war baggage invovled, and without their leaders compromising their very strong grasp on internal power.

When China does finally get around to Taiwan, they won't use their navy, air forces or ground forces. They won't have to deal with US military or even Taiwanese military oppositions, logstical issues, or possible problems with homeland morale. They'll do it with lawyers, bankers, tough economics and clever buyouts mixed with heavy political lobbying inside of Taiwan itself.

I think the Chinese are still reading and applying Sun Tzu's ideas very nicely.

benEzra
October 19, 2006, 07:40 PM
Tokugawa is correct. An army marches on it's stomach. Sure they could flood South Korea with a million troops...then what? Most people are unable to fathom the logistics of supporting even a few hundred thousand troops.
Unless the NK leadership decides to pull a Sherman and have the NK troops attempt to find supplies in South Korea, assuming they could actually get there.

[quote]Arclights with large loads of 250gp's work wonders on caves, tunnels and bunkers. Don't have to rearange too much top soil to make entering and leaving a real problem. The real question is how fast is the responce time between comencing hostitilities and first counterstrike. We all know the good guys wouldn't do a Red Storm Rising first.[/div]
Could be harder than one might think. Given the relatively small force we could bring to bear on short notice, and assuming a widely dispersed, largely buried group of targets, I don't think it would be an easy "load 'em up and shut 'em down" air operation.

I don't know how closely Red Phoenix would parallel an actual Korean conflict, but it opened my eyes to the fact that a second Korean war wouldn't be a cakewalk.

Prince Yamato
October 19, 2006, 08:18 PM
A fact not known to many Americans is that while South and North Korea have poor political relations, BUSINESS relations are actually quite good. South Korean companies, such as Hyundai "contract" out to factories north of the border and make use of cheap labor. There are also "vacation" spots along the border that South Koreans are allowed to go to under economic agreements between the two countries. Many of the businesses in South Korea have good reason to keep the north as is: cheap/slave labor. A reunified Korea would cause great economic hardship for the South. I'm not saying I'm against reunification. I hate communism. What I am saying is that the South has viable economic reasons to keep the cold war going on.

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