The Magic Bullet?


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jagdpanzer347
October 18, 2006, 09:23 PM
Greetings all. This post regards ammunition for personal defense. Primarily handgun, but rifle as well. I used to pay alot more attention to developments in "serious purpose" ammo, but much less so the past few years.

Do people still debate the concept of the "one shot stop", and the best round to achieve it with? I thought long and hard about which cartridges to load my Glock22 with years ago when I first bought it. Corbon 135gr. JHPs for what it's worth.

Now I would feel just as secure with my M1911 with 230gr. hardball. Yeah, I know it's low tech, but a double tap with that is alot better than two misses with the latest and greatest in JHPs. I guess I've come to realize shot placement is the deciding factor.

Please don't construe this as some kind of slam on modern ballistic technology, I still keep that Glock ready with Corbons. I still would definitely prefer my defensive weapons loaded with high performance ammo. But if they are loaded with hardball, I still won't feel under-gunned against the evil in this world. Do you?

-jagdpanzer

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ETXhiker
October 18, 2006, 09:38 PM
Yes (say it with me, everyone!) shot placement is the main thing. I still want a bullet with a good combination of expansion and penetration, but I'm not sure if hardball gives up that much, especially in a .45.

One thing that I have become aware of only recently, is the "psychology" of stopping power. There is more and more evidence that what the bad guy THINKS he is supposed to do matters somewhat. After a lifetime of cops and robbers movies, we all know subconsciously, that after a serious hit from a firearm, we are supposed to fall down. If the BG is not out of his mind on PCP and not harboring a suicide wish, a hit COM from almost anything may make him drop and wait for an ambulance (a one shot stop!) If, on the other hand, he is pumped full of pharmaceuticals, crazy, suicidal, or all of the above, a full magazine of 9mm/.40/.45/whatever may not immediately take him down without a CNS hit.

Bottom line, use good ammo in a decent caliber, but don't ever count on one shot stops.

Oh. And practice the Mozambique drill.

gbran
October 18, 2006, 10:27 PM
Yes, shot placement is very important, but it is not part of the argument as to whether to use hardball versus HP's or other PD ammo. I'm sure that there is no difference in shot placement using hardball or HP's. Having said that, I'm not sold on hardball ammo for personal defense and while I won't say that it won't do the job, I do believe the alternatives are better.

Kentak
October 18, 2006, 10:58 PM
Yes, shot placement is important, but can you really count on it happening when SHTF? It's one thing to get good placement on silhouettes, and another on motivated, moving, shooting-back targets. Train for shot placement, but be loaded with something that can do some threat-stopping damage as well.

K

joneb
October 18, 2006, 11:12 PM
I think the motivation behind the devolpment of hollow points in part was to controll over penatration of higher velocity rounds, and to increase energy deposite of said rounds. Now for the subsonic calibers the HP brings up the problem of adequate penatration.

RyanM
October 18, 2006, 11:46 PM
Shot placement is the most important factor, absolutely. Other than that, though, there are no magic bullets. Both light and fast and heavy and slow have advantages and disadvantages.

For the same caliber and same penetration depth, the heavier bullet will have a larger expanded diameter, and thus crush a bigger hole. The heavier bullet will also have a huge advantage in punching through bone. But the lighter bullet will have an advantage going through skin; like if the bullet hits an arm first before going into the torso.

Red Tornado
October 19, 2006, 05:50 PM
Do people still debate the concept of the "one shot stop", and the best round to achieve it with?

Yeah, we settled this a few months ago in a 9mm vs. .45ACP thread. I just can't remember the consensus. And I think we reached a consensus.;) I seem to remember that the best one shot stop was a 7.62 Nagant, 92gr FMJ at about 750fps applied directly to the back of the head. :evil: Almost 100%.

Seriously, I've got 147gr HP in my Sig P226 at home. I'd probably be more confident of a one-shot stop with Gold dots in my 1911, but I've put a lot more rounds through my Sig, and I'll keep it as primary until I'm as comfortable with the 1911. Another 1000 rounds and maybe I'll switch. In the unlikely event that I'll ever need it, I'm sure I'll never shoot as good as I do at the range, so the additional shots may be useful.

"Why did you shoot him 15 times?"
"Don't you think reloading would have been excessive?"

RT

Justin
October 19, 2006, 05:58 PM
Do people still debate the concept of the "one shot stop", and the best round to achieve it with?

At great length and elevated volume.

People fixate on the hardware far more than the software, and quite to their detriment.

2TransAms
October 19, 2006, 06:22 PM
It's been pointed out plenty of times that folks have taken multiple rounds of all sorts of calibers and continued,albeit more slowly,about their business. The only one-shot stop is any caliber from .22 on up to the core of the central nervous system.

HP's...why not take the extra edge if it's available? I'll take a 230 grain Hydra-shok over anything,but I'll take 9mm+p Gold Dots over .45 hardball. And I'd still feel pretty well armed with any of those three.

44AMP
October 19, 2006, 10:51 PM
Shot placement has always been the key. People falling down dead from .22 and .25ACP hits is because the bullet went in the right spot.

Now, as far as stopping power, There is endless debate (which is why we have so many choices), but in any given situation after the placement of the bullet, the most critical thing appears to be the attitude of the person who has been shot.

The only shot placement that will turn off a human instantly is a sufficient hit to the brain/spinal chord. People, like animals can live for as much as a minute, even with their heart destroyed. And a person can do alot in a minute. The medical experts will tell you it has to do with how much oxygen tthere is in the brain, once the blood flow stops. I like to think it has to do with attitude.

Really scared, or really angry can keep a man (or animal) on their feet and functioning until the body physically fails. A heart shot deer can run a half mile sometimes. As long as the deer is in panic mode it runs. When the panic fades, and the deer slow or stops to see where the threat is, it dies. Sometimes this happens. Most of the time, a heart shot deer just drops. But deer hunters know it can happen.

People are really no different, except we think more. People can think themselves into (or out of) things. The 1986 Miami FBI shootout is a good example. The one robber who did nearly all the shooting was hit by a 9mm before he got out of his car. The bullet went through his arm and severed blood vessels at the top of the heart.

Doctors later said if he had been shot at the operating room door they probably wouldn't have been able to save him. But the shooter wouldn't quit. He killed and wounded several FBI officers before being shot in the head, while trying to escape in another car.

Soldiers in combat have taken mortal wounds and lived long enough to perform actions which have later won them medals.

The other side of the coin is that people can think themselves dead. People have died from the bite of non-poisonous snakes. People get stopped by a minor wound. Some people. Some of the time. It all depends on their mental attitude. And the strength of their belief.

An illustration of this was a shootout a few decades ago in a building hallway. Two criminals, one with a .45 and one with a .22. One COM hit each (non incapacitating). Guy hit with .22 dropped. Guy hit with .45 didn't. Guy hit by .22 had a history of theft, burglery, othe guy history of physical violence. It was apparently attitude that made the difference.
(This was an actual incident, but I no longer have a good reference, sorry)

As noted, we have had generations of people being "trained" by movies and TV that when you are shot you fall down. For many, the belief gets into their heads below the concious level, and if they get shot, they do what is expected.

Others don't get conditioned that way. Since there is no way to know what kind of person one is facing, we train to shoot until the threat is gone (target is down). So, I am not a big fan of the "one shot stop" school of thought.

That being said, the round with the best one shot stop numbers offers the greatest potential advantage if more than one shot is needed. So far, numbers indicate the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum is in the lead.

On the other hand, the conclusion one draws from numbers can be flawed. There are lots of variables that have an effect on the numbers, not all is as it seems. Careful examination of all facts is impossible, because a very important fact, the mental state of the assailant cannot be examined. Which is to me, why "one shot stop" figures are not necessarily the whole truth.

OpFlash
October 19, 2006, 11:40 PM
the round with the best one shot stop numbers offers the greatest potential advantage if more than one shot is needed. So far, numbers indicate the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum is in the lead.
I used to be a Facklerite until I realized that the .357 Magnum is essentially the same bullet as the 9mm, just faster. Current 9mm SD rounds penetrate and expand very well, so what could be the advantage of the fabled .357 other than extra shock from the extra speed/energy? I think the answer may be that the Marshall/Sanow "One Shot Stop" data goes back many years, back when .357s were used by LEOs frequently and quality 9mm defense rounds did not exist. It would be interesting to see "One Shot Stop" data from just the last 5 years.

Practially speaking however I would feel well armed with anything 9mm and above using modern SD ammo. I agree 100% with the above comments on shot placement and the psychology of being shot.

tsalaf666
October 19, 2006, 11:53 PM
well keep in mind that one shot stop isnt even necesary if you can at least stop the attacker for a second. i just do what my rabbi taught me. double tap using recoil to guide the gun upward. this way the first shot can be put pretty much anywhere on torso as this is easiest. of course the attacker may not go down (especially if suicidal) but the shot will stop him for a second and then you put the second shot in quick succession which you can guide more accurately towards your targets center. this second round will land in the upper torso or head. if it does not kill him it will shock him longer than the first shot giving you enough time to aim and put another shot or two to the extremeties. that is why it's better to go with accuracy rather than power... to an extent anyway.
a great thing about this method is that it does not depend on a sain attacker. even if the attacker does not feel pain, as long as your not using insanely weak ammo itt'l still stop him long enough to put in the other rounds
that's basically why they use it in tsahal anyway. cause terorists dont care about getting shot.
also the method becomes instinctual after only a little practice.

2TransAms
October 20, 2006, 11:52 AM
The other side of the coin is that people can think themselves dead. People have died from the bite of non-poisonous snakes. Is that possible? Please explain...if there's no venom can it really kill you? Does your brain just tell the rest of your body that it's game over? I understand about thinking you're dead from a gunshot and giving up,but I don't see the negative physical effects from a non-poisonous snake.

Zero_DgZ
October 20, 2006, 12:05 PM
There is such a thing as a magic one-stop bullet.

It is fired from this. (http://www.warbirdpictures.com/ATC/ATC-GermanRailGun-1.jpg)

ETXhiker
October 20, 2006, 12:18 PM
I don't see the negative physical effects from a non-poisonous snake.

Yep, it's for real. It's called a heart attack.

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