Limp-Wristing


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Geronimo45
October 19, 2006, 02:40 AM
I'm probably wrong, seeing as I've never seen a case of limp-wristing. But from what I've read here and elsewhere, here's a few observations:
1. Limp-wristing tends to affect blowback-operated guns more than locking lug (Browning design) systems.
2. Limp-wristing has a tendency to mess up lighter-weight Browning-type systems - polymer frames, etc. This may carry over into the little 'mouseguns' - Walther, Beretta.
3. Heavier handguns have less limp-wristing problems, generally speaking.
4. Limp-wristing will cause your wrist to break with .454 Casull.

Keep in mind that my remarks are wrong until proven correct. "All I know is what I read in the papers." Anybody have real-world data on limp-wristing problems, and what types of guns it effects most?

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heypete
October 19, 2006, 03:32 AM
I've seen one case of limp-wristing with a Glock 19 in the hands of a small, lightweight Vietnamese-ancestry girl I took to the range one time.

She had almost no tension in her wrist muscles, and after being fired the gun flopped back to where it was almost pointing at the ceiling. As the action didn't have enough force to cycle, the ejecting round stovepiped.

That's my only experience with it, for what it's worth.

hso
October 19, 2006, 09:41 AM
G45,

That looks like a list from the "Gun Myths" thread more than anything else. ;)

I've seen all steel 1911s as well as XDs "limp-wristed" just this weekend. I've seen 9mm and 45 limp-wristed. The only thing I've not seen limp-wristed were < .380s and revolvers.

For folks that have this problem, try putting a strip of medical tape from the web of your hand to each side of the wrist so that it pulls when your hand flips up limp-wristing. The tape isn't a reinforcement, but a proprioception "muscle memory" tool to remind your wrist not to let the flip occur.

PlayboyPenguin
October 19, 2006, 12:09 PM
Buy a cheap bowling wrap for your wrist when shooting if you have a limp wristing problem. I know a friend that does that.

gezzer
October 19, 2006, 07:16 PM
I'll bet you never see a revolver be limp wristed

280PLUS
October 19, 2006, 07:23 PM
I just wayched someone have trouble with limp wristing an HK .45 (IIRC). Are they blowback or locking lug? Just curious.

Geronimo45
October 19, 2006, 07:50 PM
HK45? If it's a handgun in .45, it's probably locking-lug/Browning-style. Unless HK makes a .22, I'm guessing all their handguns are Browning-style.

Myths, you say? Good. I like the whole blowback setup. Simplicity is nice.

taliv
October 19, 2006, 07:50 PM
after reading this thread
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=227357
where 1911Tuner appears to put limp-wristing in the "myth" category, i guess i'd like a little more explanation. if guns are right and run with very light grip, then what is it about the grip that causes FTE? or, what is wrong with the gun that would cause that?

Desertscout
October 19, 2006, 08:27 PM
ANY semi-auto can be caused to malfunction by "limpwristing", given the right conditions. In order for the gun to function properly, the slide has to be able to outrun the frame upon firing in order for the slide to reach it's it's full rearward movement before the gas pressure quits pushing on it and and momentum runs out.
There are many variables that affect this. The strength of the recoil spring, the power of the load, cleanliness of the slide and rails, the bullet-to-barrel gas seal, the weight of the frame itself and, of course, the amount of resistance applied by the shooter.
If you were to suspend a semi-auto pistol cradled by 2 strings, one running under the dust cover in front of the trigger guard and the other under the tang or beavertail of the weapon, most pistols would malfunction nearly 100% of the time.
Given the amount of shooters that we deal with from day to day, we see this fairly often.

RecoilRob
October 19, 2006, 08:28 PM
KelTec used to offer the P-40, which was a .40S&W version of their 9mm P-11. Key words here are 'used to' as they had SO many returned for functional problems but found most to be in perfect shape.

The problems were trying to shoot 40's out of such a light platform that they need a pretty tight grip to work properly. Kinda snappy in recoil, you know?

Those are the only pistols that I know of that are/were really succeptible to limp wristing. Most 1911 types should run, as Tuner said, with little regard to how they are held.

scurtis_34471
October 19, 2006, 08:30 PM
My wife limp-wristed my Bersa and caused a failure to eject. After I showed her what she did wrong, she never did it again.

pocketgun
October 19, 2006, 08:35 PM
I'm probably wrong, seeing as I've never seen a case of limp-wristing. But from what I've read here and elsewhere, here's a few observations:
1. Limp-wristing tends to affect blowback-operated guns more than locking lug (Browning design) systems.

Not from what I have seen, at least not due to the actual mechanism. I suspect that if more limpwrist problems occur with blowbacks it is because of the low energy cartridges they are designed around.

2. Limp-wristing has a tendency to mess up lighter-weight Browning-type systems - polymer frames, etc. This may carry over into the little 'mouseguns' - Walther, Beretta.

3. Heavier handguns have less limp-wristing problems, generally speaking.

The lighter the weight of the pistol, the more likely it is to be affected by a limp wrist. With a heavy pistol like a 1911, the mass of the pistol itself is going to provide a good bit of resistance to the movement/rotation of the gun during recoil, but a light weight pistol doesn't have that advantage.

4. Limp-wristing will cause your wrist to break with .454 Casull.

Never shot one, but somehow I doubt it is very likely. I don't think it wil cause a malfuntion, though! :D

DougB
October 19, 2006, 09:02 PM
I resemble that remark...I own one of the aforementioned Kel-Tec P40 pistols (now discontinued). I also have a P11 (same gun in 9mm) a couple of P32s, and a fair collections of other semi-auto pistols. I really wanted to like the P40, but could never get it to work reliably - even after returning it to Kel-Tec and trying a variety of ammo. It would sometimes get through a magazine or two without a jam, but rarely more than that. I don't think I limp wristed it - though the design may be such that it has to be held unusually firmly. I haven't had this problem with other guns - including some fairly lightweight .40s (I now use a compact Firestorm/Bersa Mini-40 as a replacement for the Kel-Tec). Anyway, it seems to me that if a 6'2" 240lb experienced shooter using a two-hand hold and firing deliberately gets jams due to "limp wristing" - it's a design flaw. Then again, if the gun works reliably for some shooters, I guess that's fine. Or it still may be something about my particular P40. I did install the +1 magazine extensions on all my P40 magazines and I've heard that that might contribute, though that doesn't seem likely to me.

Anyway, I don't mean to turn this into a Kel-Tec P40 discussion - just wanted to share my possible limp wristing experience. By the way, I'm very happy with my other Kel-Tec products (including my SU-16B) and, in general, with Kel-Tec's service.

Doug

Hawk
October 19, 2006, 09:06 PM
Too many people I respect here claim the phenomenon to be real. I believe Pax even posted a picture once.

However, in my experience, in this specific market area, it has been used far too often to shift the blame from a malfunctioning firearm to the buyer. It's been done by several manufacturers and several gun shops. In each of these cases is was bovine scat.

So, although I believe it to be "real" it's correctly diagnosed perhaps one time in a hundred, or one time in a thousand. For so long as it's used by the lazy, the inept or the dishonest to deflect responsibility I doubt it'll graduate fully from the "urban legend" charge so often applied to it.

A pity, as this obfuscates the issue when limp-wristing is truely at the root of a problem.

Desertscout
October 19, 2006, 09:20 PM
Being a certified gunsmith and full-time instructor, I have, many times, taken someone's gun who claimed that it was malfunctioning and proved that it was nothing more than incorrect grip. I'll be the first to say that it FAR from being the ONLY reason that causes Type II malfunctions but it certainly happens often enough to be called credible and far from a myth.
There have been a few times in the last 3 years or so that I have actually purchased guns from a someone that swore up and down that the gun was to blame and, from the way they described it, I certain enough that it was related to grip that I bought them, test-fired them and sold them. They simply did NOT want to hear anything about them not holding right.

Hawk
October 19, 2006, 09:54 PM
Generally speaking, I would assume anyone posting here about limp-wrist knows whereof they speak.

Sometimes, it can be hard to picture how the unscrupulous can "take that ball and run with it" if one has never done so oneself.

Still, a defensive handgun may well be called on to function in adverse conditions including one-handed, weak hand, impaired grip, etc. If your defensive handgun requires a splint, an Ace bandage, a two-handed grip that would shatter a coconut and / or that you "hold your mouth just right"...

...might be time to find a less fussy firearm.

pocketgun
October 20, 2006, 12:07 AM
Hawk, I think you make some good points: I see limpwristing used as an excuse for mechanical problems too often. Like DougB, I too own a P-40, but unlike his mine has been reliable. Was Doug limpwristing? Who can tell, but I somehow doubt it considering the other firearms he owns that seem to work fine for him.

To me, limpwristing is simply a training issue, like learning trigger control or a proper sight picture. Limpwristing does not require a "coconut shattering" grip, just a wrist that doesn't act like a hinge each shot.

Desertscout
October 20, 2006, 12:57 AM
To me, limpwristing is simply a training issue, like learning trigger control or a proper sight picture. Limpwristing does not require a "coconut shattering" grip, just a wrist that doesn't act like a hinge each shot.

Precisely!

Skpotamus
October 20, 2006, 02:34 AM
I ran into limp wristing once when I was selling a 1911 to a friend. The gun was a Springfield Loaded. I bought it used for almost nothing since the previous owner had broken the extractor by dropping his slide on a round in the chamber one to many times. The gun had some teething issues until the extractor got tweaked just right. I owned it for a few years after that, then sold it to a buddy of mine so I cuold get the cash together for another pistol I had been wanting for a while.

He couldn't get through a magazine with it without the gun malfunctioning. I took the gun back, and ran a hundred rounds through it with no problems. I asked him to shoot it again with me present, and viola!, the gun jammed. I cleared the jam, then fixed his grip. He was actually letting the gun kick up to almost a full 90 degrees, not just his wrist, but he was bending his elbow and rotating the shoulder somewhat. He ended up passing on the gun even after I fixed his shooting grip/tech and the gun ran fine in his hands. I sold it to another buddy and haven't heard any complaints.

Bazooka Joe71
October 20, 2006, 02:44 AM
For the longest time, I never really understood or believed the whole limp-wristing thing, because it has never happened to me. Since my break in period on my kimber 1911, it has been 100% reliable for me. On the other hand, it is almost guaranteed that it will jam on one of my buddy's ever time I take one them to the range.

Phil DeGraves
October 20, 2006, 10:39 AM
"...might be time to find a less fussy firearm."

That would be a revolver who's functioning is not affected by limp wristing. What Desertscout has said is absolutely correct. You can demonstrate "limpwristing" by putting underpowered ammo in your gun. It will likely fail to eject. It is not a design flaw. You are simply not using it properly. I've seen many students fire their pistols all day long without a malfunction, then when they do opposite hand unsupported drills, they get malfunction after malfunction. That isn't because the gun stopped working. It's because they don't have the grip strength in their opposite hand, or at least aren't holding it as tight as they need to.

Hawk
October 20, 2006, 02:30 PM
"Finding a less fussy firearm" is my heartfelt suggestion in the face of an incorrect diagnosis of limpwrist. This would not be my advice if the diagnosis was coming from Desertscout or most here.

I hasten to add that I'm not impuning anyone's advice here - I'm convinced it's "real". However, my "real world, in person, face-to-face" experiences with "limp wrist" are running at a 100% rate of bogusity. This is simply due to the observation that the experts who had dianosed "limp wrist" were also unable to make the gun run. Getting them to try it took far longer and cost far more than it should have.

The biggest difference is that those contributing to this thread will take the firearm and it'll work. Those I'm familiar with locally will offer a diagnoisis of limp-wrist while staring at the wall. Big difference. But for so long as the less scrupulous are doing so, limp-wrist will maintain some degree of "urban legend" about itself.

There are still occasional threads regarding malfs where "limp-wrist" is invoked prior to ascertaining if the gun works at all for anyone, not just the poster asking. It's advice like this that I have no respect for. If nobody can make it run, it's most assuredly not limp-wrist.

My issue with limp wrist isn't whether it exists, it's whether it should be the first guess as to why a gun won't run, particularly a newly purchased one.

FourTeeFive
October 20, 2006, 02:43 PM
I had it happen with my Sig P220 in .45 when I fired from my weak hand in an uncomfortable position (was during a combat training class). Wasn't positive this is what caused it so I intentionally tried with my right hand and a loose grip (only one round). Sure enough, ejecting shell stuck at an angle. Not enough recoil force to get the slide far enough back during cycling. W

CornCod
October 20, 2006, 05:47 PM
I understand that holding some types of semi-auto shotgun results in jams. I have never owned a semi-auto shotgun, so I can't speak from experience.

JMusic
October 20, 2006, 10:22 PM
I'm not going to use the term limp wristing but I like hso saw quite a few failures on semiauto's that were shot by ladies. One was very strange. As she shot the lever that locked the slide back would become engaged. I watched several times thinking she was hitting it accidently with her thumb she was not. This occured an average of three shots. I ran several mags through the gun one handed slow and fast, and I can run one very fast without a failure. It has something to do with not enough resistance but it could be torque not just resisting inertia thats involved. Whatever it is it is frustrating for the person involved and it is a cop out for gun dealers when a customer brings one back.

Jim

combatantr2
October 21, 2006, 01:59 AM
From Geronimo 45

Keep in mind that my remarks are wrong until proven correct. "All I know is what I read in the papers." Anybody have real-world data on limp-wristing problems, and what types of guns it effects most?

Of course youre wrong :neener: Ive fired my RUGER P89 and three 1911s
with the looses grip possible without dropping the pistol but I could never make them jam.

I said it before, limp wristing is an overblown diagnosis that tend to mask the real problems of the pistol. I wouldn't want a pistol that is overly sensitive to improper gripping. My 2cents.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
October 22, 2006, 12:55 AM
SWMBO occasionally has a problem with limp-wristing her Springer Micro Compact. It'll fail to extract sometimes, as she keeps a pretty light grasp on the pistol. I've been able to duplicate it and it's definitely not a mechanical issue, although I may tighten up the extractor a little just for cheap insurance.

Regards,
Rabbit.

jaysouth
October 22, 2006, 01:52 AM
I tried to 'limp wrist' a couple of glocks and a couple of .45 1911s. Somehow I just can't do it. I shot them with thumb behind the beavertail area and finger in the trigger guard only. couldn't hit much, but they still work just fine.

Could somebody post a video that would show us how to 'limp wrist'?

Wonder what's wrong with my guns?

Why in the hell can't I limpwrist?:fire:

GregGry
October 22, 2006, 02:18 AM
A friend of mine from school owns a g19. If she loads the gun and fires 7 shots, almost everyone of them would either fail to feed, fail to eject, and any combo of strange failures. After having such trouble, I asked to fire it. I shot the rest of that mag without one problem. I changed mags and shot 7 rounds through it, again no failures. I handed it back, and the first round was ejected and the new round got caught on the feed ramp. Cleared the jam for her, and the next round failed to eject. Her first 35 rounds of the day were ok, but after that was when the problems started. She was holding the pistol correctly.

Hawk
October 22, 2006, 02:01 PM
Don't know about a video but Pax put up a photo in Feb of last year.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22088&stc=1

Original thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1559114

mete
October 22, 2006, 02:36 PM
Jaysouth, I've tried that too without success !!!

jaysouth
October 22, 2006, 03:38 PM
If you carry a gun that won't fire reliably, 100% of time, without a picture perfect weaver stance grip, you better get another gun to stake your life on. If your gun won't work right in your weak hand with a poor grip, you need to carry a whistle or mace or something that will work.

Limp wristing is a internet myth. I have tried for years to get some loudmouth at the club that opines about such garbage to demo it for me. He quit coming to the club because he could not demo a limpwristing failure to a crowd of onlookers.

Can't find a single gunstore/gunmag/gunshow/tactical commando to make it happen in my presence with my stock or tricked out guns. My standing offer is a crisp $100 dollar bill to make it happen. I've worn out a hundred dollar bill carrying it my wallet waiting for it to happen.

Debate something more sensible like using Mobile 1 on guns. or +P+ ammo or somesuch other internet twaddle.

cedjunior
October 22, 2006, 05:27 PM
Every action is met with an equal and opposite reaction. The same forces that are pushing that 230 grain FMJ out of the barrel and down range at 800fps are also pushing back on the gun. All recoil operated handguns rely on this force to cycle, provided enough of that force is acting on the slide alone independent of the frame, enough force that the weight of the slide and the strength of the recoil spring can be overcome and the slide will be pushed back far enough to eject a spent case and load the next round. This also depends on the shooter being able to hold the frame of the gun steady enough that the force the recoil spring is putting on the frame (as a direct result of the spring being compressed by the rearward motion of the slide) is overcome. If not, too much of the force needed to push the slide back independently of the frame is then directed at the frame its self, causing a cycle failure.

Another way to explain it is if you're pushing a spring that needs 10 lbs of force to compress horizontally against a nonstationary object that only needs 5lbs of horizontal force to be moved, you're going to move that object without compressing the spring. If that spring is the recoil spring, and that nonstationary object is the frame of a pistol, with that 10lbs needed to compress that spring being the force against the slide while firing a round, the frame will move, not compressing the spring, and leading to a cycling failure.

pax
October 22, 2006, 05:37 PM
Hawk ~

That was a good old thread.

pax

RecoilRob
October 22, 2006, 08:47 PM
Good old thread indeed!

One person opined that the 'limp wristing' thing was most likely a failure to match recoil spring strength to the load being used. Bravo!

And, some pistols are more succeptable to this problem...like striker fired ones. Not to name names (Glock) but cocking the striker also tries to pull the slide out of battery so that design cannot use springs below a certain tension and stay closed and safe to fire.

I had a G-19 that was so close to opening when the trigger was pulled close to firing that it could be brought out of battery with a quick forward movement. Not a major problem, I agree, but it disturbed me enough to sell it off. It also ate any and everything fed to it by many different shooters. If the recoil spring had been made heavier, it certainly would have become more succeptable to how it was being held.

Perhaps it would be more proper to call the limp-wristed pistol an 'oversprung or underfed' one? Changing ammo could allow the person to shoot without difficulty or, the corallary of reducing the recoil spring tension until the pistol works in their hands with their chosen ammo.

But, some pistols are not going to work with any old ammo for some people.

pocketgun
October 23, 2006, 04:31 AM
Limp wristing is a internet myth. I have tried for years to get some loudmouth at the club that opines about such garbage to demo it for me. He quit coming to the club because he could not demo a limpwristing failure to a crowd of onlookers.

Can't find a single gunstore/gunmag/gunshow/tactical commando to make it happen in my presence with my stock or tricked out guns. My standing offer is a crisp $100 dollar bill to make it happen. I've worn out a hundred dollar bill carrying it my wallet waiting for it to happen.

LOL - because you haven't seen one it is an internet myth. I have never been to Africa, perhaps that is a myth too? :rolleyes:

Next time you are coming to Las Vegas, send me a PM so I can get my money. Please do it when you first come to town, OK; I don't want my cash left on a card table in some smoky casino somewhere. :D

Skpotamus
October 23, 2006, 02:09 PM
Then explain how I could shoot my old springfield with no malfuncitons, but my friend who had a VERY light grip with a damned near 90 degree tilt to the gun during recoil had stovepipe malfunctions. When I had him lock his wrist, the stovepipes went away.

Sorry, I'm an NRA instructor, and I've seen too many problems with stock guns and factory ammo cured by proper technique to discount the theory as an internet myth.

I have shot my 1911's with one finger and thumb, however, you are missing the point that a limp wrist problem has nothing to do with your grip, but with the wrist and elbow being locked out or allowed to move.

Now, it might be a combination of tighter tolerances in a gun with a VERY weak grip, but I have seen it happen, especially when I'm working with new shooters who've done a lot of reading online trying to teach themselves.

Desertscout
October 23, 2006, 02:22 PM
jaysouth,
It's closer to NM than NV so you can just bring that $100 here and I'll take it off your hands. I can make many semi-auto's have Type II malfunctions nearly 100% of the time by shooting them improperly.

As Skpotamus says. it has almost NOTHING to with the grip and almost everything to do with your wrist being set properly.

If I knew how to post movies, I'd film it and post it here. If anyone can give me some tips on posting movies, maybe I'll try it.

ABBOBERG
October 23, 2006, 02:32 PM
I know that limp-wristing is not a myth because I've even had my Ransom Rest limp-wrist using their factory torque setting. For some guns, I had to set the torque much tighter than recommended.

What I've learned is that you need some resistance at the instant of percussion so that the slide can start moving. Locking elbows and any other joints would help in this area. If you have small hands, and no joints are locked, the slide has a heck of a time getting started, and it is likely that you will get a limp-wrist failure. I had a buddy who had never shot a handgun, shoot my .40 Sigma. At the instant the round fired, his hands seemed to tremble, and he had a FT Eject every time. I grabbed the gun after a few of his failures and emptied the mag without any hang-ups.

Hawk
October 23, 2006, 02:45 PM
I'll bump the thread to see if one of the more 'puter savvy might offer up some help on the video. Personally, I'd like to see it.

The older thread got me convinced the phenomenon is real - Pax's calm reasoning and photographic evidence will do it everytime. But the thread died out without any of us being able to induce a malf. I couldn't even get my sub-3" CDP to hiccup when shot weak hand / one hand although I'm told I looked like an enthused one-armed semaphore operator during the exercise.

jaysouth
October 23, 2006, 07:58 PM
The offer is still good.

Make one of my guns malfunction from poor grip and I'll give you a new crisp $100 bill.

I'll lay out five or six guns and you take your pick. In my opinion this is total BS cause I have not seen it, nobody can demo it, nobody can document it, and yes I have been to Africa, and I believe that the back side of the moon is the same as the visible side.

After several hundred thousand rounds downrange in 40 years, Military, Police training, and making a lot of noise at gunclubs, it has not happened and nobody can show me how to do it or produce any documention to the contrary. I have had a lot of malfunctions but can attribute them to poor maintenance, poor reloads or stupidity, but limp-wristing, NO.

This morning I took out a stock Norinco and a Less Beer Super Trick, I fired 50 rounds between the two of them with a two finger grip (thumb and triggerfinger)pointing the gun 90 degrees to the right of my line of sight, no problems. I the fired a couple of mags through a Glock 17 and a Glock 19. Same protocol, same results. This is called anecodal evidence and will stand until somebody produces scientific evidence.

Post the video.

mete
October 23, 2006, 09:07 PM
The only thing I can think of that might do it is to actually move the hand back as you pull the trigger.

1911Tuner
October 23, 2006, 09:26 PM
I'm gonna concur with jaysouth. I've demonstrated the limp wrist malfunction myth for several good folks by gripping a...guess which platform :cool: ...pistol with a loose, cradled hold.

One fingertip on the trigger and web of my hand barely pressing the grip safety. Wrist broken on two angles, and elbow bent so much the my upper arm was nearly touching my ribs...completely relaxed...and the ammo was even "soft" with a 200-grain bullet loaded to around 800 fps. No changes to the recoil system or mainspring(16 and 23 pounds)...small-radius stop and all...and the gun(s) would fire to slidelock every time. Upside down, sideways, or straight up. Just bangbangbangbangbangbangbang!

So, to paraphrase what jay noted...If you've got to have the perfect, two-hand grip on the gun to get it to function...ya just can't trust a snake like that. Have it corrected.

Kruzr
October 23, 2006, 09:44 PM
Limp wristing isn't a myth, it's just misnamed. Your grip could be stronger than the gordian knot and you can still break your wrist and make the gun malfunction. It's not the grip.....it's a breaking up of the wrist when the trigger is pulled. I see it every weekend in our basic handgun class. It is real. I can't make it happen but I see it quite a bit.

For those non-believers, read this thread about my first hand experience with a "break wrister" and teaching him to shoot with the proper wrist stiffness.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=118287

I hope jaysouth has some of those 100's left by the time he gets out to California.

Maui19
October 23, 2006, 09:46 PM
My wife can limp wrist just about any semi-auto. She's done it with my 229, an instructor's Glock and another guy's H&K. We were in a class together once where, unknown to me, she couldn't get more than 3 consecutive rounds before an FTE (using a variet of different guns). I looked over and there were 3 instructors trying to figure it out. My wife was making no effort to control recoil. She would let the pistol come up and back. It wasn't a large move--maybe 6" or so, but she would get an FTE about half the time. Once she firmed things up and made an effort to keep the gun on the target, the FTEs disappeared.

taliv
October 23, 2006, 10:55 PM
so seriously, 1911tuner, if you're saying it's a bad gun, and implying it's not the spring (by saying you shot with light and heavy (16 and 23 lb) springs), then exactly what causes it and how do you fix it?

Hawk
October 23, 2006, 11:08 PM
Actually, I believe the reference is to stock springs on a 1911: 16 pound recoil spring, 23 pound main (hammer strut) spring.

Anywho...

Hawk makes popcorn, brews some tea and settles in. We've got a lot of expertise, several mods, some instructors and no real agreement.

I'm expecting to learn something out of this one - the last one just kinda fizzled. I nominate for "sticky".
:)

jaysouth
October 23, 2006, 11:18 PM
Tuner,

You have probably forgotten more about guns than the rest of us here know or have known.

I only know what I see, and that is, I can't make any of my guns malfunction by a loose grip and NOBODY else can make it happen in my presence. I belong to two gun clubs that have over a thousand members combined and none of them can do it.

A couple of years ago, I saw a 10 year old named Daniel Horner shoot IDPA. He cleaned the house with a Glock 17 shooting D.H. Middlebrook's 'reverse weaver stance." In that fashion, the stong hand is bent at the wrist with the weak arm extended straight out. Maybe two adults shot better scores than him. At the time he did not weigh a 100 pounds and was holding the gun in a very loose grip. He did not falter, misfire, or miss. If ever I saw a classic case of 'limp wristing' this was it. For some reason his Glock performed flawlessly and he cleaned up on this match. Keep your eyes on yound Daniel, he will be the equal of his former neighbor Ernest Langdon some day.

My daily carry is a from a pair of box stock Glock 19s with night sights. Both perform mechanically in flawless fashion using web of hand and trigger finger grips. Accuracy sucks, but the guns go off every time I index the trigger. If they did not, I would find another platform with which to protect my life, or else lay back and collect a pension and watch television with a shotgun in the corner. But then, maybe I have not heard that somebody on the internet figured out how to 'limpwrist' an 870 12 gauge.

Geronimo45
October 24, 2006, 12:29 AM
Just a thought on trying to jam a gun with a two-finger hold - you'll probably have the one finger on the grip on it up high, close to the bore axis (with a 1911, you've pretty much got not choice in the matter, with its grip safety).
Maybe some of it is people who think they need to make the gun go up?
Like kids with cap guns will sometimes do - "bang!" and raise the gun as they pull the trigger? Maybe the upwards momentum messes things up. Check the shooters' shots - are they higher than they were aiming?

1911Tuner
October 24, 2006, 06:53 AM
Lemme clarify...

I don't doubt that some guns will malfunction without a proper grip. I'll maintain that the ones that do are in need of repair...and I'll take that 100-dollar bet that ya can't make one of mine do the Limp-Grip Shuffle."

pax
October 24, 2006, 11:18 AM
Tuner ~

The little bit of progress we made in the other thread came from realizing that "limp wrist" isn't one thing, it's several. It's a catch-all phrase.

An example: Even a perfectly-tuned 1911 will malf if you shoot high thumbs and press the thumbs hard against the slide, retarding its action. But when the actual problem goes undiagnosed, that can be called "limp wristing" because it is a shooter-induced malfunction of the gun, and because if anyone else picks that gun up to shoot it, it will function without a burp.

I've seen young, brand-new shooters who had a very interesting and unusual flinch pattern -- almost a two-stage flinch that looks something like the old cowboy movies where the shooter tries to "throw" the bullets downrange with the barrel of the gun. I think that one is caused by too much playing with toys guns as a child. That weird two-stage thing sometimes results in malfs. I can't actually do it, so couldn't demonstrate it for anyone else, but I've seen it done with a gun that otherwise functioned flawlessly. All it takes to fix it is convincing the newbie not to "make" the gun fire ... and it is such an egregious and easily fixed error that after firing a half-dozen rounds correctly, he'll probably never even be able to do it wrong again.

As I said long ago in that other thread, I really don't understand all the emotion about this. It takes only two seconds to teach someone to keep their wrists straight and to make sure their fingers are not retarding the slide action. It costs nothing and can be done right there on the range when the problem crops up. And if it doesn't work, or if the problem crops up again, the gun can easily be brought to a smith for a tune up.

Why not go for the fast, free fix before suggesting people try a slow and expensive one? Why all the emotion?

pax

1911Tuner
October 24, 2006, 11:23 AM
Emotion? Nah...I could just use a hundred bucks.

Desertscout
October 24, 2006, 12:09 PM
I only know what I see, and that is, I can't make any of my guns malfunction by a loose grip and NOBODY else can make it happen in my presence. I belong to two gun clubs that have over a thousand members combined and none of them can do it.

So because YOU can't do it, you think no one else can......BS.
You have seen each of over a thousand shooters try?... BS.

You're 1500 miles away so, unless I figure out how to post a video, I don't suppose we'll ever get together to prove one way or the other. I am guessing that even if I post a video that you will come up some reason not to believe it. In my Multi-State Concealed weapons class, I describe how it happens but in Defensive Handgun I, I demonstrate it and have shown quite a few people how it happens. I usually demeo it with either my G22 or my G23 but have done it with others as well. I would be haapy to demo it to you too, if I were ever to have any reason to cross the Mississippi again.


Emotion? Nah...I could just use a hundred bucks
LOL, maybe you and JS can carpool. Bring your wallet and come to my range.

pax
October 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
Tuner ~

You didn't address the important question: why not go for the fast, free fix before suggesting a slow and expensive one?

pax

1911Tuner
October 24, 2006, 12:21 PM
DS wrote:

>LOL, maybe you and JS can carpool. Bring your wallet and come to my range.<
********

Too old to make the trip, lad.:cool:

Lemme go ahead and clarify a little deeper before pax thinks I really am emotional about this question.:neener:

If the gun is a range queen or a steel plate toy, it doesn't matter. You've always got the time, opportunity, and the presence of mind to adjust your grip...and if the gun malfunctions *because* of a bad grip...nothing meaningful is lost.

If, on the other hand, your sidearm is carried for the off-chance of needin' a weapon to save ol' skinny, and you have to jump through hoops and whistle Dixie before you can depend on it to function...then it's time to either get the problem corrected or consider a revolver. *Because*...When you're up to your crack in crocodiles, you can't count on being able to get a two hand grip on the gun, much less getting it juuuuuust right.

pax pondered:

>You didn't address the important question: why not go for the fast, free fix before suggesting a slow and expensive one?<
*************

Because the fast fix isn't always the dependable fix.

pax
October 24, 2006, 12:47 PM
Ahhhh, okay.

Let's work this a little more, Tuner. I don't think we're so far apart, mebbe. I absolutely and totally agree that if we are talking about defense guns, the gun must be reliable, and must function in the real world on a day when Murphy and Lady Luck both personally hate your guts.

This is a horrible confession to make on a gun board, but I don't actually care much about guns per se. I'm basically uninterested in the minutae of how a gun is put together; all I really care about is how it works when it gets into the shooter's hands. That's my bottom line and yours too. So as I said, you and I aren't so far apart on this.

You know I see a lot of shooters as an assistant instructor at a fairly busy firearms school, FAS. I get to be the one standing right behind them as they learn to shoot, suggesting improvements in their shooting techniques, helping them hit the target instead of the target stand, making sure they don't hurt themselves by getting a thumb behind the slide or wrapping a hand around the cylinder. I watch muzzle direction, grip and stance, trigger control ... you get the picture. I don't watch targets -- I watch shooters. I watch what they do and how they do it. I have seen and corrected many shooter induced malfunctions in beginning classes.

(An aside: sometimes a newbie says, "these sights are off!" The usual solution is to pick up the gun, fire a tight group, and say, "nope, it's not the sights." But you know what? Occasionally, it is the sights. I think limp-wrist malfs are sort of like that. It can be either the shooter or the gun, and an experienced hand is needed to diagnose the difference.)

Anyway. It doesn't end with the beginners standing on a static line. After we get our beginners holding the gun properly on a static range and firing somewhat predictable groups at close targets, we start mixing it up. We show them how to fire on their knees, or from behind cover, or in the dark, or using only one hand, or while moving, or while the targets are moving. Eventually, if they keep coming back long enough, we teach them how to fire in really tough situations, such as one-handed while moving in the dark with the targets also moving -- or such as lying on the ground in a fetal position, with the gun held upside down one-handed.

None of this requires a shooter to "hold his mouth just right" in order to make the gun function. We expect and demand that the shooter and his gun function under all sorts of strange conditions that most range shooters will simply never experience. It isn't real world, but it's as close to real world as it could possibly be in a safe training environment.

The beginner who limp-wrists an otherwise functional firearm often eventually turns into an experienced shooter who can fire one-handed upside down without any difficulty at all -- even though he is firing the same gun which has not had a trip to the gunsmith in the meanwhile.

I've also (of course!) seen poorly-functioning guns which did indeed need a trip to the 'smith. Probably more of those than of the strictly shooter error types of malfs. I've seen both types: mechanically caused, and shooter caused.

That's my experience.

pax

taliv
October 24, 2006, 12:48 PM
1911tuner, i am similarly not emotionally invested in this issue. but i am really curious about what you think is wrong with guns that need to be held just right. can you give me some examples of ones that you've fixed before from this issue?

Chuck R.
October 24, 2006, 12:57 PM
I never believed in “limp wristing” till about 4 weeks ago, now I’m not so sure. I never had a problem with it, none of my shooting friends do, nor does my wife apparently. About the only place I've heard about it is the Internet.

What changed my mind was taking my father-in-law from Austria out to shoot at my place. We started out with my 7.65 1923 Luger. Now I’m pretty proud of this one because I spent quite a bit of time working up a load that would function reliably in it due to its oversize bore. It had gone a about 300 rounds without a hiccup till he tried it. Then, a couple FTEs per magazine and the toggle wouldn’t lock back on empty. When I shot it, it was OK though.

We then moved on to my SIG220ST, again every couple of mags he would get a FTE. Not as bad as the Luger, but something wasn’t right. For me this gun has run 100%. The clincher was when he shot my 5” Baer. This gun has gone over 9000 rounds without a hitch, but with him the same effect as with the SIG. Every couple mags he’d get a FTE stovepipe:confused: My wife shoots my Baer, my friends 16 year old daughter has shot my Baer, I’ve shot it every which way possible and haven’t had a problem. BLUF, I trust my Baer.

I thought it might have been a combination of a finicky Luger, and some bad reloads in the .45ACPs, but everything ran normally for me. When we got home I relayed the experience to my wife. They then conversed in German for a while and then she told me that he’d sustained an injury to his right wrist that made it painful to keep it locked straight. He also said that he doesn’t like autos very much because he seems to have jamming problems with all the ones he’s tried.

Maybe limp wristing does or doesn’t exist, I’m not so sure now. What I do know is when I take my father-in-law out to shoot I’ll hand him either my Python or one of my Colt SAAs.

Chuck

1911Tuner
October 24, 2006, 01:18 PM
Me an' pax reached an agreement? :what: Hell hath frozen over.:p

I've always subscribed to the notion that a machine is designed to operate, pretty much any way that you want to operate it...within reason, of course... and I haven't run into a pistol yet that malfunctioned because of grip that I couldn't correct as long as the shooter didn't drop it every time it was fired. In all except a few notable instances, the problem was with the gun. For the times that it was actually the shooter, a little retuning of the
recoil system cured it. My diminutive 13 year-old stepdaughter shoots full-sized and Commander-sized 1911s without a hitch and without respringing just for her. She also shoots Glocks on occasion...whenever somebody happens to have one handy...BHPs and others. Once, she had a function problem, and the owner said that the gun had to be gripped pretty hard to keep that from happening, and that such a little girl probably didn't have the hand strength to shoot that big, scary pistol. Took all of 10 minutes to fix it.
He was flabbergasted.

Many blame it on overspringing...and sometimes that's a correct assumption...but that's only half the question. It also has to feed and go to battery. If the slide short-cycles a little, and the short run-up causes a failure there...then the job isn't finished. If the gun won't feed and go to battery with a light spring...with the slide drawn back just far enough to strip the round...it needs tweakin'. The good news is, that it doesn't usually take much.

Hawk
October 24, 2006, 02:14 PM
Now the Pax and Tuner are on the same page...

I occasionally see what I believe to be extraordinarily low expectations of our firearms, to wit:

I know that limp-wristing is not a myth because I've even had my Ransom Rest limp-wrist using their factory torque setting. For some guns, I had to set the torque much tighter than recommended.

No disrespect to the poster noting the above, but can we agree that a firearm that won't run at Ransom rest factory recommended settings is simply a broken gun?

pax
October 24, 2006, 03:10 PM
Hawk ~

Yes. :eek:

"Extraordinarily low expectations of our firearms" sums that up quite nicely.

pax

1911Tuner
October 24, 2006, 05:36 PM
Quote:

>I occasionally see what I believe to be extraordinarily low expectations of our firearms, to wit:<
*****************

And therein lies most of the trouble. When we have new pistols that don't live up to expectations...and we call the manufacturer...we (too) often get the old "500-round Break-In" or the "Limp Grip" song and dance...and it's come to be accepted as common and even expected.

Sheep dip.

I read that as either:

"We don't know how to fix it" or "We'd rather not fool with it. Go away and stop bothering us unless you want to buy another one of our fine products."

Wonder what the reaction would have been in 1912 if the Army Ordnance Department had called Colt to tell'em that their last shipment of pistols was chokin' on every other magazine...and they had gotten the reply that
they had to be broken in and that the troops weren't gripping the guns tight enough. :scrutiny:

Here's where I start to get emotional, so I'd best bail out now...

Hawk
October 24, 2006, 06:34 PM
Tuner strikes a chord. I don't know if anybody ever answered Pax's question in the old thread about "why so emotional".

I got the whole enchilada: break-in (500 rounds), limp-wrist, change ammo. If the diagnosis is bogus, as it almost certainly is coming from someone who hasn't seen the shooter or the weapon (present company excepted), a trusting sort can spend an awful lot of real money (break-in rounds, wrist gimmicks) and real time chasing smoke. Once it comes to light that the gun really was the problem, it's too late to get back either the time or the money.

Voila: a skeptic is born. If it happens more than once the skeptic produced thereby will be very vocal and have a bad rash.

greener
October 24, 2006, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the discussion. I wasn't sure what limp-wristing looked like. Think I've seen it once: limp wrist, limp elbow, limp shoulder, limp...

War story: About 30 years ago I ran a .45 qualification range. A half-colonel goes to the line. First shot is down-range, pistol kicks back past vertical and fires, third shot goes down-range and I was yelling check-fire before round 4 came in my direction. (artillery, never could remember that some folks say cease fire). We had a long and rather heated discussion (on my part) about the ability of a mere captain to throw a field grade off the range unless he fired only with adult supervision; something about not getting combat pay and not being the one to write up the explanation of the new hole in the tower was also in the discussion.

I've never been sure how he accomplished the over-the-shoulder shot. But it sure added a bit of spice to an otherwise dull day.

pax
October 24, 2006, 08:15 PM
"We don't know how to fix it" or "We'd rather not fool with it. Go away and stop bothering us unless you want to buy another one of our fine products."
Well, that's enough to make me plenty cranky, too.

I guess I come at 'most everything from a perspective of, "You don't need a technology fix for a training problem." That's a true statement, but I admit it's only half the puzzle.

The other half, which Tuner and Hawk have so thoroughly highlighted, is, "You can't do the job right if the tools don't work the way they're supposed to." And that's just as true.

Carry on ...

pax

jaysouth
October 25, 2006, 10:11 AM
Greener,

Are you a former 173d FO?

Please PM me.

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