[JR719]

Has anyone had this happen? Our dept. training division issued a memo about circular stress fractures between the firing pin and extractor. The training Lt. (and firearms instructor) noticed this on his weapon, Glock 21 "old style first gen". He recomended everyone check their Glocks for similar fractures. Well.... I checked mine and there does appear to be a "slight" hairline circular crack.
The Lt. emailed Glock or called, but has heard nothing yet. His has a very large crack and deformed enough so as not to fully go into battery (so the story goes). I'm going to have him check my model 22 when I return to work. Hopefully his is there, I would like to get a pic to post.

JR

[Steelcore]

Thats not a stress fracture.That is the imprint of the case on the breechface.Sheesh

[defiant73a]

You were able to determine that how? By faith?

Breech face cracks happen in Glocks.

[aguyindallas]

I have a G19 that has breech face "damage" or whatever you want to call it. No cracks.

Another falacie in this story is that he emailed Glock.....

NOWHERE can ANYONE seem to be able to find a way to email Glock. They operate by phone and fax alone unless he somehow has some sort of internal connection there.

[boing]

RIF:

The Lt. emailed Glock or called

Cracked breechfaces are not a fallacy:


http://www.sniperworld.com/glock/tech.html#breech

[Spackler]

Because apparently Glocks slides are made of super-duper steel and they are impervious to all manner of cracks, fractures, or breakages.

Why do some people find it so hard to believe that things occasionally break? Even "perfect" things.

[10-Ring]

Stuff breaks...time to fix or replace...1st gen pistol...what was the round count from this pistol? For a tool you depend on to defend your safety, if you've shot it enough to crack it, you probably got your money's worth out of it....get another one & keep training ;)

[magsnubby]

I have five Glocks. If i had a life or death situation i would trust any one of them without hesitation...or my Rugers...or my S&Ws... or my Colts... or my Springfield........

Glocks are mechanical objects. Mechanical objects can and do break. There is no such thing as perfection.

[AK103K]

I had an earlier 17 with about 500 rounds through it that had a crack in the breach face. I never noticed it, as it was nasty looking anyway, but Glock claims it was, as they replaced the slide. Then again, the gun was back for the second time because it would not fire when you pulled the trigger, so maybe it was their way of trying to get it to work...just replace ALL the parts in the gun this time. :)

[IV Troop]

"Stuff breaks...time to fix or replace...1st gen pistol...what was the round count from this pistol? For a tool you depend on to defend your safety, if you've shot it enough to crack it, you probably got your money's worth out of it....get another one & keep training
__________________
Let's Roll!

"We will not waver; we will not tire; we will not falter; and we will not fail. Peace and freedom will prevail." President George W. Bush, October 7, 2001 ""


Good Post.


If it bothers you, Use it for a training gun or permanantly modify it to non firing mode and make it a classroom gun. Glocks are not expensive , Buy another G21 and don't look back.

I carried a G21 for almost 10 years as a street cop/ipsc shooter. Fantastic gun. I carry a G19 right now in Iraq. I am quite happy with it in its assigned role.

[JR719]

For the earlier posters that seem to think I cannot differentiate between fracture and imprint... It is fractured, 2 of the department armorers checked my glock today and yes, even with a magnifying glass, it is there. Mine is a 2nd generation I learned today.

for the falicy of emailing glock... I have no idea how he contacted them, phone, email, fax, telepathy, I don't know, wasn't there. He did contact them though.

Yes, I looked at his glock today, forgot the camera though. The circular imprint from the base of the case is what is ruined. It has actually peeled from the rest of the metal. A circle like the pic in the posted link.

I asked a legitimate question, a couple rude sarcastic replies, why?

[defiant73a]

Too much Kool-Aide! :)

[JR719]

Here are the pics. After talking to the Lt., he said he was practicing dry firing. After the last pull, he said it did not "feel right". He checked and sure enough, it's broke. Oh yes, he called glock and was given the run around. They said not to dry fire. Although, he pulled out his training manual that says dry firing will not cause damage.
Anyway, here are the pics, hope they show.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/JR719/breechface2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/JR719/breechface1.jpg

JR

[defiant73a]

Oh yes, he called glock and was given the run around. They said not to dry fire.
That'll make it kind of hard to clean it, won't it? ;)

[BigG]

Well, seeing is believing. I would have thought that "harder than woodpecker lips" meant unbreakable.

[FPrice]

I did not see this thread before the pictures were posted so I did not have a chance to say "yay" or "nay" before some proof was shown. But the pictures do indicate a pretty serious problem.

But I am a little surprised that Glock seems to be giving them any sort of run-around. I had a case-head separation in a G23 last year (with early Federal ammo) and Glock immediately offered to check the pistol for free.

If a private citizen like me can get hold of Glock easily I see no reason that a PD could not get some response.

[rough rider]

yup my research seem to suggest glocks dont do well when dry fired a million times for practice. That's why I just use snap caps when I can't go to the range to practice. They seem NOT to have any trouble when you show clear and hammer down during ipsc competitions though. :)

[aguyindallas]

Wow, I will take a closer look at my 2nd Gen G19. It has a lot of "wear" in a circle pattern where the back of the case seats. Its like somebody shot a million steel cased rounds through it. The flip side is that ALL of the other internals, including the barrel look like they have hardly been used. The gun has almost zero finish wear and when I field stripped it, it was cleaner than ALL of my other Glocks.

My smart @$$ comment above about contacting Glock is just that...a comment. Over on GlockTalk, people often ask if Glock has an email address...NOBODY can ever come up with one.

I will be interested to see what Glock does about this.

[armoredman]

Hope they make it right - G-rock has a history of making cop guns right before civilians firearms, so blowing off the LT is unusual. The one big G-rock failure I remember seeing was a crack in the slide under the ejection port, but that was after about 200,000 rounds in a range rental gun.
Good luck. Is this failure a thing common in G-rocks, and nobody else? Never heard of it before.

[270Win]

http://wikicompany.org/wiki?title=GLOCK&printable=yes

Distilled version:


Contacts
Web: http://www.glock.com
Email:
Phone: +43 (0) 2247 90300 0
Fax: +43 (0) 2247 90300 312
Address: P.O. Box 9, A-2232 Deutsch-Wagram, Austria
Geocode:



Not even the company report came up with an email for them! Maybe they only have inter-company email there. I have no idea.

[Trabuco]

Breechface cracks are not THAT rare...I have seen both a G27 and a G23
with cracked breechfaces. The G23 had about 50 rounds through it. The
owner dry-fired the gun to store it and heard a funny sound...spanking new gun.

[SoCalShooter]

Thats not good at all. I think I will have my friend check his G21 first gen for cracks also!

[rockstar.esq]

defiant73a your comment about cleaning would stand up IF snap caps didn't exist. It never friggin ceases to amaze me that photo's posted by our own THR's where something broke because of (at least partially) dry firing without snap caps. So buy the doggon things already ya cheap ...whatever's...!

[Spackler]

I don't think it was caused by dry firing at all, I think it just happened to break during dry firing. Dry firing isn't going to cause that kind of failure, and a snap cap isn't going to prevent that kind of failure.

[boing]

Agreed. Dry firing is not causing the problem.

Remove a Glock striker and look how short the blade tip is that protrudes through the breechface, and how much of it actually sticks out when the striker is fully forward in the firing position. The breechface is painfully thin, but only in the small area immediately around the firing pin hole, consistant with the diameter of the striker channel.

It's not a coincidence that the cracks match the imprint of the case head.

[JR719]

I don't know if it's true or not, but.... Talk around the station is that Glock has several Gov contracts and trying to fill the orders. Rumor is that Glock is not taking care of anyone right now. Like I say, don't know if it's true, only rumor. I left it up to the Lt. to talk with them and hopefully take care of the situation. I bought mine in 93 and always thought it was a gen 1. The Lt., and others, looked at it and said it was a gen 2. I always had seen the brass ring on the breech face and cleaned it off, no biggie. Then when the memo was issued, looked a little harder. Thought I saw cracking, but was not sure. I let several armorer's at the dept. take a look. All agreed it was cracking. Honestly, I would have never noticed unless brought to my attention. I could barely see it without the mag glass.
I have shot about everything thru it that would feed. I don't know how many reloads I've put thru it. I've only had a couple stove pipes (limp wristing, my fault). I don't want to sound like a person saying not to buy a Glock. It has been a good weapon, been in all the elements without problems. I just think it's time was up, too many rounds, some prob a little too hot. Rumor also has it, and please don't quote me or blast me, just rumor.... 2 folks have already been.... yes... killed due to this. I did not want to post it, but it was said and is a concern. From the story I HEARD, your looking down the sights, fire. WHen the breech face gives way, everything comes back. Only the plastic cap is holding the guts in. All that comes right back in your face. Like I say, please don't blast me, just the talk around the station. I would think it would be publicized, but I have not read anything about that happening. Since mine was shot, no pun intended... I sold it for parts. Was looking to do the LE trade in, but it would be re-released to the public and I could not do that in good concience.
So basically, everything I've posted here is "for what it's worth". Just what has happened to me, my LT. and rumor going around. Hopefully nobody else has this happen.

JR

[owen]

I think it's broken?

Serously,

Stuff happens. All mechanical things break. Heck, I broke an anvil once. (No black powder involved, I swear!!)

This is one more piece of evidence that gear needs to be closely inspected on a fairly regualr basis.

I am sure it's not a dry firing problem, although I do think it is a curious failure. I'd love to see a side view of that disk from the breech face, and a photo of the hole it came out of. If it is a fatigue failure, the direction of the stress should be obvious in the surface of the fracture.

[owen]

Forgot to mention, for the trade in, I believe they replace everything but the frame, so no need to feel guilty.

[waldo]

I know this is an old thread, but I just had this happen to me and was refered to this site and thread from the folks over at CalGuns.net.

Was there ever any solution or resolution to this incident?

My situation:
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm275/rowrdscat/IMG_0603.jpg

I was dry firing my Glock21 when the sound and feel became a little different. The pistol has approximately 25K to 30K rounds through it with no problems. Dry firing has at least the same amount.

Thanks in advance..good to be here and apologies that the first post couldn't have been on a lighter note.

[1911Tuner]

Thaaaat's a crack, all-righty. Yes. Breech faces take a lot of punishment from the recoil impulse.

Newton 3. Force forward equals force backward. Whatever punch the bullet "feels" the breechblock feels.

[jbremount]

Well, the same thing happen to my Glock 23! I dry fired my gun with snap caps and still this happen.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g153/jbremount/glock23/DSCF0148.jpg


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g153/jbremount/glock23/DSCF0141.jpg


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g153/jbremount/glock23/DSCF0143.jpg

[icebones]

nope, "harder than woodpecker lips"

on the rockwell hardness scale, a glock slide is about 64 (pretty hard)
most high quality pocket knives are about 50-60 Rc. but this treatment only hardens the surface of the metal. kind of like casehardening.

the harder the metal is, the more brittle it becomes. ever had a knife balde snap off? same thing here.

you must find the sweet spot between hardness and toughness.

i got bored in the machineshop once, and got a scrap piece of A-2 tool steel, hear treated it to 68Rc dropped it on the floor and it shattered like glass.

its probably the tenifer finnish cracking and not the slide itself, a glock slide is like a M&M, hard and crunchy on the outside, soft and chewie on the inside.

these glocks are all 1st generation!!! it looks like the breechface was WELDED on to me, just by the way the crack is jagged and rough, like the metal was soft and tore like sheet of paper...
worth looking into... ive NEVER seen hardened metal crack like that, usually its a clean sharp zig-zag crack.

its hard to explain, so please forgive me if this is confusing to anyone...

[Trabuco]

I have had on hand two third generation G23's and one G27 with the same problem.

[MachIVshooter]

Wow. I knew Glock slides are not through-hardened, but I had no idea the breechface was so thin. It's kinda curious how the structure looks almost cast where they broke, too.

I've had a couple of cheap guns mushroom the firing pin from dryfiring, but never seen breechface cracks like that.

[DWARREN123]

May be bcause of being too hard. You can get some major damage from the metal being made too hard and then not being annealed properly.
Also maybe the firing pin is a little too long and put to much pressure on the rear of the breechface. Perhaps a combination.
GLOCK should step up and find out what the proble was and fix it!

[SAWBONES]

To date, over a period of twenty years, I've owned nine Glocks in calibers 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP, and shot uncounted tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of rounds through them, with no breechface cracks. (I did get a barrel lug fracture on a G27, though.)
They do happen, and there's good pictorial evidence, but it's not as though it's anything like a common occurence.

[rauchman]

Count me among the victims.

I have a 2nd gen G19 serial # series BZK---. I noticed when dry firing a couple of weeks ago, the last trigger pull felt different. Tried racking the slide and the slide would only go back about 1/4". Was able to field strip the gun but the barrel wouldn't come out of the slide. Removed the fire pin and extractor plunger but the barrel still wouldn't come out. Took a flat head screwdriver and was able to gently pry the barrel past the breechface. Was surprised, shocked and bummed to see cracks around the breechface pushing outward. A thread that I started on AR15.com http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=80861 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=80861) discussing the problem led me here.

Attached is a link for some pictures.

http://s605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/rauchman/G19 Breechface failure/?albumview=slideshow

[Pizzagunner]

icebones hit it on the head. The increased RC surface hardness of the Glock slide works against it when it comes to impact resistance. Over time, the breech face has been impacted by the toughest part of the casing and what the dry firing does is send vibrations ringing through the breech face, and though a milder form of working force, it does its bit.

Eventually, the light hammering of the brass and the vibration from the striker going off chunks off the breech face along where its crystalline matrix has faulted. All this a result of the breech face being too hardened for the application. Most other slides on the market are way softer even after a surface hardening.

[dom1104]

:barf:

Wow. Just wow.

[rauchman]

Does anyone know if this is only in certain generation guns, serial #'s, year of manufacturer? I'm not positive, but it seems that every Glock mentioned here, is either a 1st or 2nd gen gun. Are there examples of this problem in 3rd+ gen guns?

I've never heard of this happening on other models from other manufacturers. Does anyone know of any other brands where this has been mentioned?

[greyeyezz]

For gods sake people use snap caps they cost what, a whole 6 bucks?

[Eightball]

Geez. Didn't know about such things with Glocks.

[vanfunk]

For gods sake people use snap caps they cost what, a whole 6 bucks?

As has been previously illuminated, this is not the problem.

How 'bout customer service reports? Glock is typically quite on the ball when it comes to repairs. Can anyone chime in on Glock's response?

vanfunk

[Beagle-zebub]

Are there any reports of this phenomenon happening in XDs and other Tenifered/Melonited pistols?

[JDGray]

Yep, them is broke:eek: Just think if a case failed at the same time as the breechface, someone might have been eating one of them plastic slide end cap thingys:scrutiny:

[Tacbandit]

JR719, isnt it amazing how there are always so many "experts"...As a Glock lover, thanks for the heads-up. Believe me, I'm sure Glock will make it right. With them having a "lions-share" of the nations PD business, they can't afford a black eye. Keep us posted, and good luck...

[willbrink]

"Has anyone had this happen?"

I have it on good authority it can't happen, as according to Glock- and many owners of Glocks - nothing can go wrong with them and all problems are due to "user error." :p

[tipoc]

You have a relatively thin piece of hardened metal that takes a lot of force. You'll also note that the firing pin channel is rectangular. This shape makes it easier for a crack to begin at one of those four corners. A round or oval shape would be more resistant to cracking at that point. The rectangular shape rather invites it particularly with it's sharp corners.

I don't know if this is a common problem, or how often it turns up, but if you designed a part to intentionally fail at a certain spot putting a sharp corner right there would work.

Also looks like the section of the slide that takes the brunt of the recoil is harder than the rest of the slide, or a seperate piece welded in. I don't know enough about Glock construction to say but that pattrern of breakage suggest a two piece slide or an area that is not hardened deeply.

tipoc

[rauchman]

Greetings,

I s/w Glock cust serv today. They are going to fix, rather give, me a new slide. The person I s/w seemed to know of this problem and right off the bat, mentioned that this gun probably had a lot of dry fires. I mentioned that the manual says it's ok to dry fire and he acknowledged that, but did mention that it would be a good idea to use Snap Caps.

Anyway, the gent I s/w was A-OK in my book and Glock is going to fix my pistol - woo hoo!!!

Will report back when I get the pistol back from them. Will be sending it out either tomorrow or Thursday.

[Hk Dan]

If you look in the armorer's update, it does say that dry firing my damage the breechface just as you're describing. Something about thin walls, yadda, yadda, yadda. It went on to say that "excessive" dry fire could damage it (along with the firing pin safety wearing from being rotated as the trigger bar moves it).

How are they planning to fix, rather than replace that slide, I wonder?

[loop]

Let me get this straight. A 20-pound spring pushing a firing pin that weighs a few grams can do more damage than a hot .357 SIG round?

Plleeezzzz!

If the breech face is so weak that a firing pin, excuse me, striker, can break it, I don't want to be on the same firing line - ever!

The reason guns aren't dry fired is to protect firing pins/strikers, not to protect a breech face. ie: .22 rimfires, CZ52, etc.

The "line" about dry firing is just that - a line.

Overall, Glocks are pretty good guns. They excel at reliability and are reasonably accurate. They are better in both categories than most of their rivals in their price range.

But, there are many, many guns that are just as reliable and many guns that are more accurate.

Please don't start citing examples of Glock's accuracy. If they were that accurate they would show up on the firing line at bull's eye matches regularly. They do not.

Any attempt to blame dry firing for failure of the breech faces is a cover up of a known issue. If it were a true issue it would have shown up thousands of times in hundreds of other makes.

Since Glocks cost about $75 to 100 to make it is far cheaper to just replace the gun for the manufacturer. When the company has overextended it's commitments on contracts for new guns you get crap like "excessive" dry firing can damage the gun.

[Dobe]

Let me get this straight. A 20-pound spring pushing a firing pin that weighs a few grams can do more damage than a hot .357 SIG round?
I'm not arguing for or against, but the logic is the same as the 110 lb. woman wearing spike heels vs. a 300 lb. man wearing loafers. The woman will be the one who puts the dents into the wood floor, pounds per square inch.

[tipoc]

I'm not arguing for or against, but the logic is the same as the 110 lb. woman wearing spike heels vs. a 300 lb. man wearing loafers. The woman will be the one who puts the dents into the wood floor, pounds per square inch.

This could be a good point but when we look at the pics of damaged guns it's not the imprint of the "spiked heel" we see. What we see looks like something else.

tipoc

[Jbabbler]

reetings,

I s/w Glock cust serv today. They are going to fix, rather give, me a new slide. The person I s/w seemed to know of this problem and right off the bat, mentioned that this gun probably had a lot of dry fires. I mentioned that the manual says it's ok to dry fire and he acknowledged that, but did mention that it would be a good idea to use Snap Caps.

Anyway, the gent I s/w was A-OK in my book and Glock is going to fix my pistol - woo hoo!!!

Will report back when I get the pistol back from them. Will be sending it out either tomorrow or Thursday.

Hate to revive a Zombie thread but it makes more sense than starting a new one....
Just wanted to get an update on your slide Rauchman. How did the trip back to Smyrna end up? Did they fix it or replace it?

[augustino]

Well if one shouldn't dry fire a Glock, then how does one remove the slide to clean it?
The manual says to be sure it's not loaded. Once certain check it again to be positive THEN point in safe direction and pull the trigger, as in dry fire.
The the slide can be removed etc...

[rauchman]

Hate to revive a Zombie thread but it makes more sense than starting a new one....
Just wanted to get an update on your slide Rauchman. How did the trip back to Smyrna end up? Did they fix it or replace it?
My apologies for not getting back on this. Yes, Glock did right by me. I had to send them the pistol, and pay for shipping out there $50, but Glock did send the gun back to me w/ a new slide. They moved the night sights over from the old slide to the new slide. I now do use Snap Caps as I don't want this to happen again.

[mete]

Use a New York reload ! [ carry a second gun !]

[tipoc]

To remake a point others made...this is not caused by dry firing.

The area of the breech face is a weak points in the design of the gun. Here you have an area that takes a great deal of stress each time a round goes off yet it is quite thin. Not only is it thin but it has a rectangular hole in the center of it for the striker to emerge with small radius' at the corners, a shape that tends to facilitate cracking. A round or oval shape here would be stronger. If the heat treatment is a bit off in this area the slide will fail as you see it in the pics. Even with precise heat treatment, it is a weak point in an otherwise strong slide seems to me.

Glocks are strong guns but their standard service life is no greater than others in it's class. This is one area where they can fail over time.

tipoc

[EddieNFL]

Too much Kool-Aide!

How does Glock Kool-Aide taste?

[mete]

These are not called 'stress fractures ' but properly are 'fatigue failures' ! Repeated stresses over time.

[BWB]

Caspian makes replacement Glock slides that address these problems by using different steels and very different heat treating.