Defensive pistol instructor-IDIOT!


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MachIVshooter
October 19, 2006, 12:54 PM
"The Walther P-22 is an excellent choice for a defensive handgun. .22 will kill you just as fast as anything; the bullets bounce around inside you. It's the preferred caliber of assassins."

......Who kill their targets with a head shot at point blank range and have all the time in the world.

Still amazes me that, with all the data to refute it, this ".22 caliber bouncing bullet" myth persists.

Seriously, has anyone else here ever met an "instructor" who would use such a ridiculous argument and actually advise his students to use anything less than the most potent weapon they can effectively handle?

I completely shut this guy out after he claimed that he could "shoot 25 yard groups with a stock XD-45 that you can cover with a quarter" :rolleyes:

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TexasRifleman
October 19, 2006, 12:56 PM
Dude..... Where is that guy teaching? That's amazing.

Like they say I guess, and it's true more often than not I suppose.

Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.

strambo
October 19, 2006, 01:02 PM
"shoot 25 yard groups with a stock XD-45 that you can cover with a quarter" If it is a pistol course...wouldn't he have opportunity to prove it? Anyway, a good instructor's resume is the capability of their students. He may have been a top bullseye competitor and can do that with his XD-45 (more accurate than normal sample). Doesn't mean he can teach others to do the dissimilar skills of gun handling and adequate marksmanship under stress and at speed at 3ft to 10 yards.

hso
October 19, 2006, 01:04 PM
I've never had an instructor that was that idiotic.

OTOH I would take evil delight in asking them to please demonstrate this skill so that we could all learn to follow in their footsteps.:evil:

Manedwolf
October 19, 2006, 01:06 PM
It'd be funny if it wasn't likely that someone taking his classes could get killed by following his advice.

AJ Dual
October 19, 2006, 01:09 PM
He didn't by chance have a "tactical wheelbarrow" did he? :rolleyes:

MachIVshooter
October 19, 2006, 01:11 PM
If it is a pistol course...wouldn't he have opportunity to prove it?

He was at the gun store my little sister just started working in, buying a Walther P-99 9mm (another outrageous claim from him-"Walthers have been winning the olympic matches for 16 years. Best barrels in the world").

This guy also tells me that he offers his student the opportunity to purchase his loaner guns after the course, claiming that he has gone through 80 guns so far this year. Sure hope he's an FFL and has been doing form 4473's on these guns, but I doubt it since he himself filled one out for the P-99.

Like I said, idiot. I wouldn't have believed he was an instructor if others hadn't confirmed it. He definitely shoudln't be.

EddieCoyle
October 19, 2006, 01:12 PM
I completely shut this guy out after he claimed that he could "shoot 25 yard groups with a stock XD-45 that you can cover with a quarter"

I can do this all day long. Of course, I consider one shot to be a "group".

Justin
October 19, 2006, 01:17 PM
He was at the gun store my little sister just started working in, buying a Walther P-99 9mm (another outrageous claim from him-"Walthers have been winning the olympic matches for 16 years. Best barrels in the world").

Walthers, like the OSP and GSP models have been used to win a lot of International pistol events, as well as NRA-style Bullseye. I wouldn't be surprised to see that they'd been used to win Olympic pistol matches, but the current favorites seem to be either the Feinwerkbau AW93 or Pardini SP-New, with older shooters showing a preference for the out-of-production Hammerli 208.

In my not-so-humble opinion, the Walther P-22 isn't useful for anything more than plinking at tin cans.

mete
October 19, 2006, 01:43 PM
" bouncing bullet" ? The 22 doesn't bounce but is has a long reputation of being easily deflected ! I shot a woodchuck with non HP bullet and it killed the chuck then deflected 45 degrees and exited the chuck. Pres Regan was shot with a 22 , the bullet entered the chest cavity , bounced off a rib and punctured a lung. Surgeons have long known that the 22 bullet can go into a person and be deflected far from the entrance and this is what makes the 22 so dangerous .

romma
October 19, 2006, 01:54 PM
OTOH I would take evil delight in asking them to please demonstrate this skill so that we could all learn to follow in their footsteps I would even offer to buy the ammo...

Pilgrim
October 19, 2006, 01:55 PM
He was at the gun store my little sister just started working in, buying a Walther P-99 9mm (another outrageous claim from him-"Walthers have been winning the olympic matches for 16 years. Best barrels in the world").

This guy also tells me that he offers his student the opportunity to purchase his loaner guns after the course, claiming that he has gone through 80 guns so far this year. Sure hope he's an FFL and has been doing form 4473's on these guns, but I doubt it since he himself filled one out for the P-99.
He wasn't by any chance a former Navy SEAL/Marine Force Recon/Special Forces scout-sniper with fifteen Purple Heart awards, etc.?

Pilgrim

orangelo
October 19, 2006, 02:09 PM
shoot 25 yard groups with a stock XD-45 that you can cover with a quarter

Anyone on this forum could probably do that... if you locked the XD into a vise.

ceetee
October 19, 2006, 02:16 PM
He wasn't by any chance a former Navy SEAL/Marine Force Recon/Special Forces scout-sniper with fifteen Purple Heart awards, etc.?

Did he have one of those scopes that gets it's sight picture via satellite?

(I always wanted one of those...)

entropy
October 19, 2006, 08:55 PM
I thought Gunkid was dead......:uhoh:

Chris Rhines
October 19, 2006, 09:04 PM
You know, it would be totally cool to publish the name of this so-called instructor. Just as a community service...

- Chris

Odd Job
October 19, 2006, 09:11 PM
As regards .22s being deflected:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084...lance&n=283155

In Di Maio's book, Chapter 9 deals with 'Bloody Bodies and Bloody Scenes.'
Di Maio noted that of 185 cases of suicide by .22, only 20% of those bullets exited. Of 60 cases of homicide by .22 only 6.6% exited. These figures are from gunshot heads only. He further adds: "...of the bullets that do not exit the head, the vast majority are retained in the cranial cavity. Thus, internal ricochet is fairly common, occurring in anywhere from 10 to 15% of the cases..." (See page 264 and 265)

Also, you can give Malcolm Dodd's book 'Terminal Ballistics' a read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084...lance&n=283155

In Dodd's book, Chaper 8 deals with the 'Rimfire .22 Projectile.'
Dodd acknowledges that "...the .22 short and LR rounds also have the reputation of internal ricochet within the cranium, further creating complex injury patterns..." (See page 41)

You have not been charged for this research which I have conducted on your behalf :p

But yes, .22 shouldn't be recommended for defense because of deflections and ricochets.

tsalaf666
October 19, 2006, 09:12 PM
Seriously, has anyone else here ever met an "instructor" who would use such a ridiculous argument and actually advise his students to use anything less than the most potent weapon they can effectively handle?

haha, i agree 100%. my dad, true to jewish tradition, is a lawyer and just a little while ago had a case where two druggies got in a fight, one pulled a .22 and shot the other a few times, the guy (who was not high at the time) tried to wrestle the gun away from him while being shot cause of course .22's are so weak. in the end the shooter, after puting half his clip into the other guy, got lucky and a round managed to slip past his rib cage and pierce his aorta and he died. when the cops arrived at the scene they found bullets that had fallen out of the guys body cause they were too weak to penetrate deep enough.

anyhoo, ya, that instructors an idiot.

Jim K
October 19, 2006, 09:14 PM
Well, I think I can top that, though the weapon was a rifle, not a pistol.

The instructor was a U.S. Army sergeant, and he told us trainees that the ammunition we would be firing in the M1 rifle was "practice ammunition" (ball) with only enough power to penetrate the paper target, after which it fell to the ground.

He informed us that if we were in battle, we would be issued "real combat" ammuntion with a black tip (AP) which could actually harm someone.

I was sorely tempted to ask him to stand behind a target while I riddled it with some of that harmless practice ammo, but I didn't think he would take kindly to a wiseass private.

Jim

EvisceratorSrB
October 19, 2006, 09:15 PM
Ah it wouldn't any good. Noobs won't see through the BS, so he'll have a steady stream of customers no matter what.

But I suppose warning the semi-gun-educated will help at least a little.

CombatArmsUSAF
October 19, 2006, 09:15 PM
Sounds like a couple of NRA instructors I had the displeasure of meeting last year. They spent more time talking themselves up than teaching.

ETXhiker
October 19, 2006, 09:18 PM
Surgeons have long known that the 22 bullet can go into a person and be deflected far from the entrance and this is what makes the 22 so dangerous

:confused: A .22 bullet often takes strange turns, as ALL bullets are known to do at times (please, no Warren Comission jokes.) The .22 is dangerous because it pokes holes in people and lets the inside-stuff out and the outside-stuff in.

A bullet that hits a rib and smashes through it is more deadly than one weak enough to bounce off and go in another direction.

MachIVshooter
October 19, 2006, 09:24 PM
You know, it would be totally cool to publish the name of this so-called instructor. Just as a community service...

Mike something. Didn't catch the last name, but he operates in Ft. Collins. I'll ask my sister for the name of his outfit the next time I speak to her.

As an aside, this guy is certainly entitled to his opinions, but the problem lies in the fact that he is imparting his opinion on beginners, and it is represented as fact. Many of his students will take what he says to heart. Recommending .22's for PD, advocating extreme accuracy over speed, etc. is doing a great disservice to his trainee's.

scottw
October 19, 2006, 09:31 PM
I hate to hear these kind of problems with teachers. I teach in small sessions and use the P22 because a brick of 500 is $8.00 and you can shoot all afternoon. Practice is required to become proficient with any pistol and after training I suggest them to buy as big a weapon as they can handle. At the club there is always someone there that will let you shoot their pistol. On any given day a person can shoot anything from a 22 to a 45.

Wesker
October 19, 2006, 09:41 PM
When was the last time he spoke to an assassin? If I'm perched on a rooftop with the intent of putting a bullet through the dome of some emissary, I wont use a .22 with virtually no penetrating power at 100yds.

Heck, even the most cheesiest Hollywood movie depicts lone wolf snipers with at LEAST a .223 rifle. You should have chimed in with the other bit of common knowledge that you don't even need to hit your target with a .50 to kill it. It'll tear his limbs right off.

IV Troop
October 19, 2006, 10:49 PM
Unfortunately pretty much anyone with a pulse (that may be optional) can take the (non law enforcement) NRA instructor class and pass. I roll my eyes when I see someone bragging about the fact they are an "NRA certified instructor".

Frankly it is considerably more difficult to pass a driving test in most states than the NRA instructor test. They need to make the raise the standards considerably, not to mention the prerequisits.

Some guys just think it makes them "somebody" and an "expert".

On a bright note, the NRA LE division did come out with a new instructor school called "tactical shooting instructor". The prerequisits were/are that you had to be an LE instructor in at least 2 other disciplines and the shooting standards were raised a bit. That is a step in the right direction.

Both the LE and non LE instructor certification requirements could stand to be raised considerably.

IV TROOP

JLStorm
October 20, 2006, 02:44 AM
I had the opposite experience. I am an experienced shooter and I have worked jobs for years that require lethal weapons training and experience etc. So, while I may not be an expert, I would like to think I am fairly well schooled in firearms, specifically handguns. I took a friend of mine to a basica NRA pistol course so he could get his florida permit, and I figured the class would be a good basics crash course for him. I went along just for the heck of it, but I have to say I actually learned a few things here and there. Mostly little tips about this or that, but the instructors were great, and really loved what they were doing. I had a great time and got to try out some guns I hadnt fired before, like an XD, which I didnt care for, but it was nice to try.

At any rate, it was an 8 hour course with a good 3 hours of shooting, cleaning, and instruction on the range for $40.00 (including lunch) and we all had a blast, I guess I got lucky!

The-Fly
October 20, 2006, 02:54 AM
For anyone in Colorado reading this thread, there are some good instructors out there.

I've taken my training from this guy (link to follow), and its all practical, non ninja-esq stuff.

http://www.tacticalskillsinstitute.com/

SamV
October 20, 2006, 01:11 PM
I took an NRA course a few years back and I had outstanding instructors. I also had quite a bit of experience going into the course and detected no b.s. Clearly not all instructors are equal.
As for .22s, I love em. Who doesn't? I probably wouldn't make one my first or even second choice for self defense, but is better than nothing. I surely wouldn't want to be shot by one. And of course I have read about quite a few murders commited with a .22 in the news.
Tumbling? Bouncing around? Not exiting the skull? yada, yada, yada
On the other hand, there was a sad story locally about a year and a half ago, where some guy shot himself 5 or 6 times with a .22. He finally drove to and jumped off a Mississipi river bridge to kill himself. Not to make light of such a tragedy, but man, I bet he had a major headache.
I think we should have a contest on which caliber gets the most b.s.
My vote goes #1 .223
#2 .45
Anybody else have an opinion?

losangeles
October 20, 2006, 01:49 PM
There are good and bad instructors out there, like any other product or service in any industry. You have to shop.

Also, a good instructor doesn't necessarily have to be a top marksman. A good instructor has to be able to connect with the students. Sometimes that's more important than anything else; a lot of the information passed are just basic principles anyway, not some great esoteric concepts that only the chosen knows. There are great basketball coaches who were subpar as players, business professors who can teach bright future CEOs but couldn't balance a check book, powerlifting coaches who can develop champions but couldn't bench 300 lbs., etc.

losangeles
October 20, 2006, 01:50 PM
Oh, but going back to the topic, yeah, that defensive pistol instructor sounds awful!

hksw
October 20, 2006, 02:00 PM
Maybe he was shooting one shot groups with his XD.

LightningJoe
October 21, 2006, 12:52 AM
Was it a fat guy with a beard who used to be the Vice President? Ask him about the Internet.

bouis
October 21, 2006, 01:04 AM
I'm briefing a case right now where a guy shot and killed a woman he was trying to rape - shot her in the head with a .22 -- five times. He left her body with the pants around one ankle.

He got the death penalty, affirmed on appeal, and now his lawyers are, at public expense, trying to get post-conviction relief with 9 alleged errors. Unfortunately all of them were either uncontested at trial or rejected in the direct appeal. At this rate he might even be executed in twenty years or so...

Remander
October 21, 2006, 02:42 AM
Which is more difficult?

(1) Graduating from a law school and passing a bar exam or (2) becoming an "NRA certified instructor"?

I'd say No. 1 is more difficult and requires about 3 years of law school education on top of a 4-yr bachelor's degree, BUT there are plenty or moronic lawyers out there. Same for physicians, plumbers, electricians, teachers, etc.

I bet there are quiite a few "NRA certified instructors" out there who don't have sense enough to pour water out of a boot if the instructions are written on the heel. Sounds like you encountered one.

Never expect competence based on a certificate. Make them prove it.

bouis
October 21, 2006, 03:26 AM
Remander:

Graduating from law school and passing the bar is shockingly easy these days. As far as I can tell, almost everyone who gets into law school graduates (approx. 90% of the starting class) and almost everyone who takes the bar passes on the first try (approx. 90% of those who graduate), at least in my state. I understand most schools and states are the same way these days.

It didn't used to be like this, but they don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or adversely affect the "critical mass" of various arbitrary subdivisons of the student body whose presence is "essential to [the law school's] educational mission."

Remander
October 21, 2006, 04:11 AM
Graduating from law school and passing the bar is shockingly easy these days.

True, though it can be a bit of a bother in Louisiana. The Louisiana exam holds the distinction of being the longest bar exam in the United States, consisting of 21 hours of examination on nine topic areas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Bar_Exam The pass rate is also a bit lower than most states.

Anywhooo, the point is that it is even more shockingly easy to become an "NRA certified instructor." Don't assume competence based on a mere certificate (whether it be from the NRA, a bar asssociation, plumber's union, medical school, or 4-H club).

There are plenty of "certified" idiots out there, as we all know.

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