[EatBugs]

Yeah, I said it. I decided today that I really hate it. It's a 12 gauge pump action Mossberg 500 slugster with a zooming scope. I didn't really like it when I bought it but the price was good. My boyfriend bought me a scope for Xmas, even though I told him not to, so I put that on to make him happy. And now I hate it even more.

The reason I have it= hunting deer
The reason I hate it= recoil.

Holy cow does that thing kick! My shoulder is killing me and I now have a bruise on my forehead. After the first 3 shots, forget about accuracy because I get tense and flinchy. I also have a single shot .410 and I loooove it. Hardly feel the recoil at all.

So, I'm selling my 12 gauge and I'm going to use the money to buy a 20 gauge. (I'm going to list it in the buy sell trade section)

Any sugestions or advice?
If you haven't figured this part out- I'm a young woman who likes to hunt but cannot handle allot of recoil. The shot gun is going to be for deer and I will most likely buy used. I was thinking about a single shot but I think I read somewhere that they have a harder recoil, but would it be as bad as the 12 gauge. What about barrel length? What about rifled vs smooth bore? I heard that Mossbergs tend to kick harder in general, it this true? Will I get the same accuracy and range with the 20 gauge. I probably will never shoot at anything much beyond 50 yards, maybe up to 75 at most.

[Wesker]

A scope on a shotgun? :confused:

Not to seem rude, but it could be that you're a might dainty to be using a 12ga.

[bwhited]

How about a nice light recoiling gas gun like a Remington 1100 or Beretta 391.

[squekie]

I agree with the gas gun. Find someone with one and try it out before you buy.

[foghornl]

Before you give up on the 12-Ga Mossy...here are a few things to try

Reduced recoil slugs. Helps some.

Do you have someone close by that REALLY KNOWS about shotgun "fit"? There is a great deal of info here on THR about shotgun fit. If lenght of pull, drop of the stock, etc aren't right, you WILL get hammered.

Ths recoil pad that comes on most shotguns is OK, but try replacing that with a Limb-Saver or a Kick-Eeze brand..or even the Pabst (sp??) pad that you add on over or under your huting jacket.

If any/all these things don't help, then try the gas-operated shotgun like a Rem 1100. The other things I suggested are a less-expensive alternative

HTH

[chris in va]

http://www.knoxx.com/

Click on CompStock. They're not lying when they say 50% reduction. Feels more like your 410.

[MCgunner]

Hey, 12 gauge guns kick the heck outta me and I'm a 210 lbs, 6 footer. It's just part of being a 12 gauge slug! A semi auto will tame it a little, but I think you'll still find it objectionable. maybe a heavy 20 gauge auto might be better for you.

I know Indiana is one of those screwball states that don't allow rifle hunting, so ain't much you can do other than switch to the 20 and make your shots count. If I lived in a shotgun/BP only state, I'd be shooting black powder. Don't care much for slug guns, but I like black powder. If you think you could learn the routines of black powder, a 50 kicks, but is easier on the shoulder than a 12 with slugs.

[f4t9r]

Big difference in 12 and 20 going to the 20 is the way to go.
pick up a 870 or even the mosssy is lots better in 20. I made the switch years ago and have been happy

[Eat Beef]

My mom has a Winchester 20, I think it's called the "lady defender", and she loves it. Treats it better than me, almost as well as the dogs and the grandson, but I digress.

I like the 870 myself, and wouldn't touch a Mossy (zips up flame suit), but I wouldn't go with a single shot if recoil is a problem. My first shotgun was a breakdown 20 and it is at least as brutal as any of my 12 ga 870s.

Gas guns might provide a little relief, but they bring price issues. I think a 20 ga pump would fit the bill very nice, but I agree that trying a few would be best, if possible.

Hey, and glad to hear of lady shooters, I have to drag my wife kicking and screaming to the range, and it's in the front yard.:o

[sm]

EatBugs.

Welcome to THR!

Great Username! So we have a lady that knows how to fly-fish I bet. :)

Okay, just like fishing, Fly-rod needs to not only fit the game fish, also need to fit the environment, and the person using the flyrod.

Balance.

Basically boyfriend handed you a 9 wt fiberglass rod, stuck a Ambassador 5000 baitcast reel filled with braided fishing line on this 9wt and said "here, go catch a fish out of that farm pond over there"

I mean doable, just everything is whomper-jawed, don't fit, and not balanced :D

Which gun for you? That is something only you can tell - after you have some education and ideas.

Shotgunning : The Art and the Science - Bob Brister.
If you do not have this book, order one please.
In the meantime, check the sticky at top of this forum and using Dave McCracken for username , read the "101" threads.

Find another lady that is a seasoned shooter, and go handle and shoot a variety of guns iwith her.

What is going to happen, is not so much the shotgun picking out part, is the learning about Gun Fit, and Correct Basic Fundamentals (Software) and get some lessons on all this Software.

The Shotgun (Hardware) will fall into place. Once you get some ideas on all this Art & Science - your shotgun may be able to be fitted to you, and add the correct basic fundamentals you are good to go.

For instance, remove scope, shorter LOP (length of pull), smooth sharp edges of recoil pad ( toe and heel) , guessing raise the comb with pc of moleskin.

Loads for short range deer, Reduced Recoil slugs .

Just like that farm pond. A 6wt rod, single action reel , with level wt line with say a Hare's Ear...will catch a variety of bream, crappie and even bass.

But one must know the correct basic fundamentals of using the shotgun - just like doing a roll cast with a flyrod.

Once the correct basics are down, you can use a Fiberglass Rod in a Kit from the local Bait shop that sells for $40, A starter Fly Fishing kit from LLBean or Orvis, for $150 and graphite rod...or drop $500 + on a custom Winston, Sage or whatever rod.

You do NOT need a $1400 fly fishing set up - anymore than you need a $1400 shotgun to hunt deer, birds, small game and Home defense use.

Great Username !


Steve

[EatBugs]

Wesker, thanks for calling me dainty :) and yep, In states where your not allowed to use rifles, some like to get as much distance and accuracy on their slug slinging shotguns as they can, and that includes scopes and rifled barrels ( though I don't like using scopes and I don't have a rifled barrel and I don't take long distance shots). I have even seen scopes on Muzzleloaders.

sm, I do fish and fly fish (very well too) in addition to being a fisheries biologist, but thats not why I choose EatBugs:evil: has a bit more to do with accidentally eating bugs that got into your food(such as cereal,cookies, and the almonds inside Hershey Kisses with almonds) and drinking a glass of wine at time of sign up. But I like your way of thinking.

And I do like shooting, just not my 12 ga.

[Wesker]

This patented recoil-reducing shotgun stock absorbs more then 50% of painful recoil.

If it's such a serious site you'd think they could afford a front page editor.

[Nematocyst]

Did someone say "fisheries biologist"?

EB, here's 6 recommendations:

1) read what sm (& Dave & Lee) suggests, & consider it (with wine)
2) trade in the 500 for an 870 :evil: (Mossie, Rem, doesn't really matter)
3) eat more bugs (says the entomologist, turned systems theorist)
4) love your shotgun (rub down outside with a light coating of oil, use bore snake on occasion)
5) hang out on THR for a long, long time...
6) vent your frustrations, ask questions (which will be answered)

BA/UU/R

;) :cool:

[plexreticle]

I'm positive you could trade straight up for a 20 gauge.

[Simple Man]

I would sell the 12ga and look for an semi-auto 20ga, an 1100 LT would be very nice. The 12ga could even be doing more harm to you than just a bruised shoulder - it could be helping you develop a flinch and can be hard to shake once you get it. Also, if you aren't capable of keeping the recoil under control, that scope will bite you eventually. I'm all for having a scope on a shotgun and even have one on my 870 12ga but I can handle it nicely. I would seriously look into getting a gun that you will enjoy shooting and can handle well. No need to suffer just to make your boyfriend happy.

[tuna]

The single shot 20 will kick harder than a 20 semi auto, but not as much as the 12.
I used an Ithaca M37 in 20ga last year. I didn't find the recoil to be unpleasant at all, and the gun is forgettable light when you're carrying it.
As much as I love my 16ga's - the kick from slugs is about the same from as what you get from a 12, so 20ga would be the way to go.
I'd go with the 870 over the Mossberg too, but that is just opinion - both are equally good guns, I just like the 870 more.
Good luck in finding a new shotgun, and welcome to the board.

[Marshall]

Go ahead and get a 20 gauge but get a semi-auto, just know it's limitations of distance since your primary purpose is Deer Hunting. If your scope is a regular scope, I might suggest loosing it and putting on a red Dot scope or no scope at all. If you don't do that, at least check the mounting of the scope, it's probably why you have a bruised forehead.

[RNB65]

12ga Slugs hurt. Period. Accelerating that much mass to a speed sufficient to get the job done is going to create a lot of felt recoil.

A 20ga slug is still going to kick like a mule, just a little smaller mule. Try before you buy.

Try buckshot. Buckshot is good out to 50 yards or so.

How about handguns? A scoped Ruger Blackhawk in .44Mag with a good rubber grip is good on deer out to 100yds.

[Zero_DgZ]

In my experience, the difference in kick between 12 and 20 ga. buckshot and slugs is minimal at best, foremost because of the negligible difference, proportionally speaking, between the two chamberings but also because 20 ga. guns also tend to be lighter...

You might want to look into getting one of those newfangled recoil reducing stocks, like a Knoxx Compstock. I have the CopStock on my Mossberg (the folding version) and I'll be danged it that thing doesn't do the trick.

[Simple Man]

I like a low power variable scope. Mine is a Bushnell Banner 1-4x32. It allows for close up shots and will bring in a 100 yard shot nicely.

[Bix]

Well, EatBugs, you've certainly gotten plenty of advice :)

Whatever gun you wind up selecting, the fit -as mentioned above- is critical. If nothing else, shorten up the stock. Factory shotgun stocks are generally a bit long for averaged-sized adult males. They will brutalize a smaller-statured female.

I've seen a rather petite-sized woman run through 600 rounds [including quite a bit of buck and slugs] in a two-day shotgun class. The instructor pulled her off the line and ran her stock back to the shed (and hacksaw) several times before he got the fit right - wound up close to a 10" LOP, IIRC.

You can shoot a slug gun comfortably - don't give up!!

[MCgunner]

sm, I do fish and fly fish (very well too) in addition to being a fisheries biologist, but thats not why I choose EatBugs has a bit more to do with accidentally eating bugs that got into your food(such as cereal,cookies, and the almonds inside Hershey Kisses with almonds) and drinking a glass of wine at time of sign up. But I like your way of thinking.

I guess there's a lot of us around. :D My BS is in Wildlife and Fisheries Management from Texas A&M, class of '75. I never worked for Parks and Wildlife, though. I did water, wastewater, and stack gas analysis in my career at the plant. I guess that's close as I had to do some neat stuff concerning bioassay work with Daphnia. I minored in Chem, so that helped. Made a lot more money than I could with TP&W, but likely didn't have near as much fun. But, it allowed me to retire early to have fun. :D And, the training was fun. All the illegal ways to insure your fish catch if the SHTF and game laws didn't matter. :D I caught one of the biggest bass I ever caught in a techniques class field trip using electrons for bait. :D

I figured eating bugs might have something to do with my other passion, riding motorcycles.:D

[ChefJeff1]

I understand your pain. I'm 5'4" and 130 and I have the mossberg 500 youth model. OUch. Slugs, never again. I"m also thinking of scaling down. "ll either buy something a little nicer or the same gun but in 20 gaugr.

[miko]

EB, single shot guns kick a lot because they are light. One thing you could do, besides installing a good pad, is just make them heavier.

Put some lead shot into the stock. It should be easy with synthetic - just pour it in and stuff tightly with rags of plastic bags to keep it in.
In a wood stock, one can drill a hole - or use the hole used for attachment to the receiver, if any - and pour in shot or insert a lead rod and then stuff something to keep it in.

With a cylindrical hole in a stock, you could even experiment with putting a lead piece of lead (possibly in some wrapper like a spent 12ga or 20 ga shell or PVC piping in front of a spring resting against the butt-pad for a home-made recoil-smoothing system.


I would advise you to experiment with your present 12 gauge - put weight into the stock and check how it affects recoil. Whether you keep it or not, it may provide you with usefull info that will help you select the next gun.

I have Mossberg 590 for HD. What I did is put a 6-rd side-saddle on the receiver, 5-rd shell-holder on the stock and a shell inside the stock, for 12 rounds of ammo in addition to the 8 in the tube. That is a lot of weight to cut down on recoil.

miko

[Fred Fuller]

EB,

What works for other people might not work for you. It seems you have discovered a few things that don't work, so far. Recoil with shotguns is a problem for lots of folks. But there are things that can help.

1) Gun fit. A critical factor, an ill-fitting shotgun is impossible to use comfortably. Stock length is the usual problem, with drop and cast being less common issues. Is your stock too long? Chances are it is, if it hasn't been shortened or wasn't a 'youth' stock to begin with. Most factory stocks tend to be too long and thus cause problems with...

2) Gun mount, form, stance. An even run for most important factor along with gun fit, form, stance and mount are learned techniques that can do a lot to reduce felt recoil, if mastered properly.

3) Recoil pad. A good recoil pad can help a lot- new substances have made vast improvements in the ability of recoil pads to do their job. LimbSaver, Remington R3, KickEez etc are definitely worth having installed on a properly fitted shotgun stock. It is a simple fact (and a much appreciated one I might add) that the female of the species is built differently from the male. Many women benefit from having the toe of the recoil pad rounded off to avoid its digging in to sensitive areas. There are wearable pads that might help as well if this is a problem.

4) Gun weight. Adding weight in balanced form to your gun can help reduce felt recoil. Heavier guns usually seem to kick less, all other factors being equal. Proper balance should be maintained when adding weight to the gun, to avoid creating other problems.

5) Ammunition. The heavier the payload you launch, and the faster it starts out, the more felt recoil will be generated. There isn't any way around that one, it's physics at work. There is a wide selection of 'reduced recoil' ammunition available for 12 gauge guns, much much less so for 20 gauge. You might well be better off using a somewhat heavier 12 gauge gun that fits you properly (and with a premium recoil pad installed) with reduced recoil slugs, than shifting to a lighter weight 20 gauge gun firing full velocity 20 gauge slugs.

6) Design. It might well be that a gas operated repeater will offer sufficient advantages over a pump to make owning one worth your while. You won't know until you try one, or several.


I think it would be in your best interest to experiment some with a variety of shotguns before you make up your mind what's best for you. You already know a couple of things that _don't_ work, better you should experiment with other people's shotguns that offer some potentially useful features, and pick and choose from among them. Unless you get paid an awful lot and can afford to buy all the guns you want to experiment with, that is 8^). Start asking family and friends about shotguns they own, particularly female family and friends if you have any who are shooters. Then check around at gun clubs and ranges in your area to see if they offer rental guns, if you haven't discovered something that you like by then.

When you get set up to do some experimental shooting, bring your own ammo. Buy some ahead of time so you'll have it on hand, for whatever gauge guns you plan on shooting. No need for magnum loads of course, and reduced recoil stuff should be widely enough available at this point that you can buy it over the counter. If not, then there's always the option of ordering it over the web if necessary.

It helps a lot to have someone handy who is good at diagnosing gun fit, form, mount and stance problems. IMHO it's worth paying someone to do these tasks if you don't have a mentor to do them for you- it saves so much time, effort and expense in learning on your own. It could be that one of the gun clubs in your area has a pro available, it might be worth asking if no one else can do this for you.

I sincerely hope you can work all this out to your satisfaction in a short time, without a whole lot of hassle and expense, and that you have a hugely successful hunting season as a result of your work. Knowing that this is a process you only have to go through once might help some, once you get the details ironed out you'll be good to go from here on out.

And whatever deer gun you wind up with will do wonders to discourage housebreakers as well- all the more reason to get it worked out to your satisfaction, and to come up with a shotgun you can have confidence in.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc

[MCgunner]

They make aftermarket chokes with compensators on the end of 'em, too, external of the barrel. I don't know how well these work, but have often though of getting a modified tube in one of these for duck hunting to ease the pain of 3" loads. One in skeet or if you can get it, cylinder bore, in a smooth bore barrel might work to reduce recoil. Like I say, I have no idea how well those things actually work.

I can tell ya, what everyone says about a gas operated SA is true. I have an older Winchester M1400 I've been hunting dove with for 20 years now. That thing is fantastic! It's a 12, but kicks like a 20. I burned 4 1/2 boxes on a three day dove hunt recently and didn't even have a sore shoulder from it. Yeah, they were field grade 7 1/2s, not slugs, but they sure cut the punishment in that shotgun. I love that thing, just don't wanna mess it up by hunting the salt marsh with it and prefer to use 3" loads on ducks and geese anyway. My Mossberg beats the heck outta me with 3", but I normally shoot less than a box in a good duck hunting morning, 12-15 rounds maybe, so it really ain't a big deal to me. Surely do like that Winchester, though. I bought it just for high volume shooting, dove or clays.

[dfaugh]

In my experience, the difference in kick between 12 and 20 ga. buckshot and slugs is minimal at best, foremost because of the negligible difference, proportionally speaking, between the two chamberings but also because 20 ga. guns also tend to be lighter...

I dunno...I'm 5'11 and over 200 lbs, and I always liked the 20 better. I have a 12 for HD, but the 20 is what goes out in the fields. Yes, a 20 gauge slug still has some "punch" but not nearly that of a 12 (which I find uncomfortable to shoot after a few rounds.)

Yes, the 20 is also lighter...which can be a plus if you have to carry it alot...but a minus for recoil-reduction. But, if you're not carrying it around a lot, you can add some weight to the buttstock.

Reminds me of the day, last year before deer season, when I was wandering in the gun section of my local Gander Mountain....A very petite wman came in and was looking for a shotgun, for deer. The saleperson, came over to help her, and proceeded to show her every big/heavy 12 gauge gun they had. Meanwhile, I'm standing RIGHT next to a Mossberg 500 "youth model" that (I'm guessing) would be a much better choice. Kept just within earshot as the salesperson tried to make a sale, kept hoping I could somehow insinuate myself into the conversation. after about 30 minutes I could tell she was totally confused, and left without buying a gun.

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things, Insectivore.....

The hardest kicking slug gun here is a 20 gauge. Simple matter of less weight and smaller pad.

Mossies run light. Add some weight to that puppy and the recoil mule turns into a pony.

Add a good pad. Here I use a KickEez, a Decellerator and a Limbsaver. All work well.

Use one oz slugs instead of heavier ones. Current pick is the KO Brenekke, but have had good results with the Winchester 1 oz HP and Federal's similar "Rifled" slug.

Use good bench form. Really pull that butt into you and stay as upright as possible.

HTH....

[EatBugs]

OH NO!!! Information overload! :eek:

I'm still want to sell the 12, even if I buy another 12-at least the new one will fit better. Hopefully. The recoil is really only a problem at the range. I didn't feel the kick or hear the boom when I got my deer last year. I just really hate practice time.

Do the youth models kick less?

What does ported barrel mean?

[Dave McCracken]

As you wish.EB.

Youth models oft kick more. The 20 I mentioned is a "Yute" model.

Porting a barrel means adding a mess of holes to divert some gases and in theory cut the kick. They may make a little difference but most make lots of noise. I can ID a ported barrel at 30 paces by the sound.

One thing you may want to check out is a wearable recoil oad for range work. I have a PAST, works well when benching Godzilla loads.....