.223 vs .308 for CQB


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neomedic
October 19, 2006, 10:37 PM
for plinkering, CQB and maybe home defense, but more for just incase when all hell breaks lose....which is a better caliber???

.223 or .308

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hankdatank1362
October 19, 2006, 10:40 PM
In home, I'd say .223 due to less risk of over-penetration, and cheaper ammo, but every other conceivable notion says .308 ... Hunting, long range use, more knock-down power.

Nightcrawler
October 19, 2006, 10:44 PM
.223, with proper ammo, offers a reduced risk of overpenetration. There are .308 loads like that too, with Hornady's 110 grain TAP being the best example.

Personally, I use .308 for everything. My only rifle is a .308 FAL carbine, actually. It works just as well at ten meters as it does at two hundred.

Generally, .223 rifles will be lighter, shorter, and handier for close shooting, but not always. My carbine is shorter than my 870 shotgun, so it's plenty handy.

I like .308 because of its versatility and the wide range of ammo available for it. It also does a number on vehicles, if you're talking about a (groan) "SHTF" scenario.

.223 ammo is a lot lighter, though, and it's easier to shoot. Not to mention less expensive for the plinkerin'.

Best solution? Get both. Not always workable, but it's good to have your options available. :cool:

Lone_Gunman
October 19, 2006, 11:10 PM
At ranges less than 100 yards, do you think 308 is significantly better than 7.62x39?

I would love to have a FAL carbine, but I already have a VEPR-K in 7.62x39 that is kind of filling the same niche (basically short range defense). I can't convince myself that a FAL carbine would be a significant improvement.

I have a M1A I can use if distances get longer than 100 yards.

Nightcrawler
October 20, 2006, 12:22 AM
At ranges less than 100 yards, do you think 308 is significantly better than 7.62x39?

Personally? Yes, I do. Heavier bullets and higher velocities at any range, not to mention better ballistic coefficients. (Note that out of even an eleven inch barrel, .308 still has a bit more than a hundred feet per second velocity advantage over a 7.62x39 from a sixteen inch barrel, firing a heavier bullet to boot.) Factor in quality ammo (JHP, JSP, TAP, etc.) and you've got a pretty effective cartridge. And, of course, .308 is superior when it comes to penetration of barriers, vehicles, etc. It's not that 7.62x39 is any slouch, but .308 is a much better all purpose rifle round. And if you need to make a two or three hundred yard shot, then the .308 wins hands down.

Comparing 7.62x39 and .308 is kind of like comparing .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Same caliber, much different performance envelopes. Plus, you have MUCH better ammunition choices in .308.

Remember, though, I've only got one serious rifle, the FAL carbine. It's a bunch of compromises, but I'm happy with it.

zahc
October 20, 2006, 12:34 AM
My father uses the .223 for (legally) pest controlling whitetails in his bean fields. The results have absolved any doubts I once had about the .223's effectiveness. For anything except perhaps sniper work, go with the .223. Cheaper, lighter, carry more ammo, still a devastating round.

Hanzo581
October 20, 2006, 12:39 AM
I am having the very same .223 vs. .308 debate, I like the power of the .308 but I also like the low recoil, cheap shooting cost of the .223

swingset
October 20, 2006, 01:07 AM
CQB is a lousy place for .308. Ever shot one unsupprssed in tight quarters? Too much gun, for an up close and personal gun, IMHO.

Loanshark
October 20, 2006, 01:22 AM
Zahc I'm in Ohio... How do you legally shoot a deer with a .223 in Ohio? I'm not doubting you I'd just like to be able to use my .223 on my folks land...
Allot easier to hit deer at 150 yards with a .223 than with a 12 guage slug.

How'd you find out it was legal?

What has to be done to get away with it?

Nightcrawler
October 20, 2006, 01:28 AM
Ever shot one unsupprssed in tight quarters? Too much gun, for an up close and personal gun, IMHO.

They are loud. So are 11.5" .223s. If you KNOW you're going to clear a house, some electronic hearing protection is probably a great idea.

Or, you could do what I'm planning on doing and getting a suppressor. And maybe an 11" FAL to put it on. :evil:

Hoppy590
October 20, 2006, 01:31 AM
Zahc I'm in Ohio... How do you legally shoot a deer with a .223 in Ohio? I'm not doubting you I'd just like to be able to use my .223 on my folks land...
Allot easier to hit deer at 150 yards with a .223 than with a 12 guage slug.

How'd you find out it was legal?

What has to be done to get away with it?

many states/countys have laws allowing for taking of an animal that is a threat/pest to live stock or crops. normal hunting rules dont usualy apply

Mumbles_45
October 20, 2006, 01:58 AM
My father uses the .223 for (legally) pest controlling whitetails in his bean fields. The results have absolved any doubts I once had about the .223's effectiveness.

Yes, but is he using FMJ rounds? I hope not. Not that Neomedic would be restricted to FMJ, but I am and my doubts are far from absolved.

Nightcrawler
October 20, 2006, 02:11 AM
*sniff* *sniff*

I smell an argument about 5.56mm fragmentation brewing. Mumbles, what have you done? :D

For my own use? .308 150 grain soft points. Good balance of penetration and down-range thump.

Thin Black Line
October 20, 2006, 10:06 AM
I smell an argument about 5.56mm fragmentation brewing.

Know where your friendlies are and use steel core.

possum
October 20, 2006, 10:18 AM
put the rds where they need to go and it will do the trick, trust me!:) .223 is great for cqb, and home defense, .308 would be way to much for shooting indoors. you gotta keep in mind that there are innocent people on the other sides of the walls and in the other rooms.

MechAg94
October 20, 2006, 10:29 AM
My house has brick facing on 3 sides. I figure .223 won't go through that. I am afraid .308 might. I like .308, but I doubt I would go to it inside my house unless nothing else was at hand.

rbernie
October 20, 2006, 10:43 AM
I suspect that most people in this thread, myself included, have had no formal training or real-world experience in CQB. (I don't count M16 range time from prone or fighting positions, courtesy of my rich Uncle, to count for much.) Looking at those folks who kick down doors for a living, it would appear that they overwhelming favor 223/5.56 NATO over 308, for example. I suspect this has little to do with overpenetration issues and is almost entirely due to the speed by which 223 allows followup shots or transitions, relative to 308 or other high-powered chamberings.

Loaded up with 75gr Hornady laods, the 223 is suitable for just about any use that I can see (short of bear defense) inside of 300 yards. It may not be optimium, but it *will* do just about any job asked of it. It is simply a better 'compromise' round than 308.

Having said all of that - I'll take an AR15 in 7.62x39 (SP) over either. :D

HorseSoldier
October 20, 2006, 10:55 AM
The 5.56mm round is superior for CQB work. Lower recoil means its quicker back on target for follow up shots or quicker on transition to additional targets. All things being equal a 5.56mm rifle is going to be lighter and handier than one built for 7.62x51, making it a bit quicker onto target and into the fight.

There are some guys out there who can shoot 7.62mm guns fast, but the reality is that physics is physics -- no matter how fast a given shooter is with 7.62mm, he or she will be faster with 5.56mm, barring some profoundly strange and unusual physical abnormality or something. You may hear people claim that they (or someone they know, or some hypothetical shooter) can shoot 7.62mm just as fast as they can shoot 5.56mm. You never hear anyone bragging they can shoot 5.56mm as fast as they can shoot 7.62mm. Probably a reason for that.

That said, "CQB" and "home defense" are two different (though related) things, unless you owe a lot of money to a Colombian drug cartel or something. Odds are you're not going to encounter a half dozen guys with AKs in your living room one night unless you've really been making some significantly bad lifestyle decisions. I'd think either caliber would work for investigating something that went bump in the night, as long as either weapon had a 16" or so barrel (CQB drills with a full-length FAL = downright silly, from personal experience). A good 12 gauge shotgun would probably trump either of them for HD for a lot fo reasons.

Thin Black Line
October 20, 2006, 11:03 AM
Odds are you're not going to encounter a half dozen guys with AKs in your living room one night unless you've really been making some significantly bad lifestyle decisions.

Or someone was asleep on watch at the FOB.....:eek:

Bartholomew Roberts
October 20, 2006, 12:07 PM
I guess it depends on how you define CQB; but:

1lb of weight gives you 30rds 5.56mm vs. 20rds 7.62x51mm.

As HorseSoldier already mentioned, 5.56 is just flat out faster than 7.62x51. The fact that many 7.62 designs are also ergonomically challenged older designs doesn't help that much; but even in AR10s, there is a noticeable speed difference.

Penetration is less with 5.56mm - which can be either a good or a bad thing depending on your scenario.

To me, it seems like it all comes down to whether or not you believe a good shot with a 5.56mm under 100yds will be just as effective as a good shot with a .308. if you do believe this, then the 5.56mm is the clear winner unless better barrier penetration is a requirement.

gsgeno
January 3, 2007, 07:24 AM
.

Vairochana
January 3, 2007, 08:11 AM
30-30 Cowboy Assault Rifle: best of both worlds:neener:

Grayrider
January 3, 2007, 10:47 AM
First I want to thank Nightcrawler for saying everything I was going to say before I got to it. Everything he said is correct, and given a quality short .308 caliber rifle that will run any ammo (read FAL) you can certainly get exceptional performance without excessive penetration and recoil, yet you have the option of penetration and lethality at range when needed. This is largely why DSA and Team Spartan LE training are advocating use of the .308 for LE use. .308 TAP will penetrate about 10" and stop, producing a consistent and large wound. If one needs to switch to a round with penetration you are never more than a magazine change away from a caliber that all experts agree is more effective than .223. Using similar logic to that used above by another poster, many people debate the lethality of .223, but none debate the lethality of .308. As modern law enforcement personnel are increasingly faced with criminals using drugs, wearing body armor, or within somewhat fortified structures, it becomes important to have the ability to both stop and penetrate from the same weapon. Clearly .308 can do that, .223 cannot as effectively. It pokes nice holes in things, but afterwards is spent.

Operator speed? Well that is a matter of training. If you don't think a person can double-tap a FAL as quickly as an AR, you have not been to Team Spartan or with me to the range. Recoil and blast? Please. Blast inside from any short rifle is far beyond what you can withstand and still hear. Noise is not a matter of degree, rather you cross a certain point and the damage is done. Beyond that how loud it is makes no difference. I suspect many people have never discharged a weapon indoors without hearing protection. As for recoil, FALs are soft shooting and with TAP even softer. Again, train with your weapon and recoil will not matter. How many of the same people arguing that .223 is better than .308 due to recoil, are carrying a 45 instead of a 9mm because they want stopping power? Perhaps you can change magazines faster in an AR, but lets see who's gun works better when dirty or has more tiny parts that can fail and take down the weapon. Platform choice has much more to do with reliability to me than how quickly I can change magazines. Of course the question was not ARs versus FALs, rather .223 versus .308. What I am saying about .308 largely applies to any firearm in the caliber, although many semi-autos will not run TAP reliably. Having an adjustable gas system helps. I have seen many ARs choke on specialty ammo as well (for that matter on any ammo after they are fouled).

I know this is bucking common wisdom to suggest .308 over .223, but a few years ago suggesting .223 over 9mm was bucking common wisdom. Before that suggesting any long gun other than a shotgun was bucking common wisdom for LE CQB use. I limit my discussion to LE/home defense rolls as the military does not need to worry about penetration that much. I think a short .308 wins in that environment without contest, but that is another discussion. I also will not comment on 7.62x39 versus .308, but you can infer that my argument would be similar with the added subject of domestic ammunition availability/options. Mind you I prefer 7.62x39 to .223 given those two choices and only looking at performance.

John

goon
January 3, 2007, 11:22 AM
Either one would work.
Up close a .308 would be loud but a short barreled .223 will also ring your ears for days.
For inside work it isn't like you are going to be sprinting back forth just for the hell of it - what would be the point? The weight of the ammo won't make much difference. If you can carry enough 223 then you can also carry enough .308.
I like the .308 for its power and versatility. You can always load it down but you can't load a .223 up.

rangerruck
January 3, 2007, 11:50 AM
223, you need lots of rounds, and you need to be light and manuelverable.
cqb fighting , is very long, very drawn out, and very tiring, especially if doing more than one building at a time.

rangerruck
January 3, 2007, 11:52 AM
oh yeah, 308 in a room, very loudy.

gsgeno
January 3, 2007, 11:57 AM
.

SamTuckerMTNMAN
January 3, 2007, 01:14 PM
for the macho post thread. . . .

223 to the head will kill someone just as fast as a 308 to the head ;) it really depends on if the person behind the gun can get it there.

blah blah blah my gun this, my gun that, my best this, and I know it all:barf: . . . because I watch the military channel:p

ps - although, since you have made 2 posts, I do extend a warm welcome, and hope my feelings don't offend your sensitivities *awwww*
;)

High Planes Drifter
January 3, 2007, 02:23 PM
quote:
223 tumbles when it hits flesh... heres my setup
AR15 100rd drum 11.5 heavy machine gun barrel 5.5" flash hider...(cal crap) flat top with flip up sights bi pod and allot of other tactical mods....
http://hotimg1.fotki.com/photo?u=/b/...0/IMG_3299.jpg
going to build (feb 07): FN FAL metric 24" fluted 10rd mags and a huge scope.
going to buy... for home protection "Thunder Five" http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~drolfe/america2.jpg
these all have a purpose. close combat and long rang.

A 233 round should not be use for home protection. if i live near you.. you will kill me along with who broke into your house. 223 test have shown it can penetrate cinder block!
--------------------

I dont get it:confused: In the first sentence of your post you said you use an AR15, yet in the last paragraph of the post you suggested that .223 should not be used for home defense.

BTW, can you provide a link to the site that tested .223 against cynder block, I'd like to see that.?

Bazooka Joe71
January 3, 2007, 02:49 PM
223 tumbles when it hits flesh... heres my setup
AR15 100rd drum 11.5 heavy machine gun barrel 5.5" flash hider...(cal crap) flat top with flip up sights bi pod and allot of other tactical mods....

223 to the head will kill someone just as fast as a 308 to the head it really depends on if the person behind the gun can get it there.

C'mon guys, you have to admit...its cute.:evil:

But generally speaking, ninja's usually are. :)

kir_kenix
January 3, 2007, 03:20 PM
everybody always tries to throw that "head shot" kill equation in there. well ya, a headshot kills or, at the very least, "incapacitates". thats pretty much a given. in cqb and other close quarter work you dont aim for the head...the head is SMALL compared to the chest area. i dont know about everybody else, but we were trained center of mass for that kind of work.

having said that...i think that the .223 is fine for most work (especially cqb), just not so much w/ ball ammo. i would use something (anything) that would expand and leave a hole bigger then 556. sure a shot w/ a .308 is going to do more damage, but inside your house you are better off landing more hits then bigger ones. outside, in the open, .308 hands down.

gsgeno
January 3, 2007, 09:03 PM
.

wcwhitey
January 3, 2007, 09:18 PM
I have often pondered this question myself. My battery includes a DPMS Low Pro Classic with flip down sights and Hoque free float tube and grip. Will hold +/- and inch with most ammo. It is short and reasonably light given the 16" barrel. Also have a Springfield M1A, the gun doesn't wake up till the distance goes out to 200. I have had most of my training with this gun, so I am probably the most comfortable with it's mechanics. They sit next to each other in the gun locker both eager to go. If the SHTF there would be some pause before I grabbed one or the other. I quess it just really depended on the situation. I do think that either one is capable of handling most any situation there is, just don't confuse yourself like I did. Lots of practice could make any advantage/disadvantage of style or caliber pretty much dissappear. Oh yea did I mention that 3rd in the row is the Remington 870, now I am really confused. Bill:confused:

C-grunt
January 3, 2007, 09:35 PM
I have seen quite a few 5.56 and 7.62 wounds. For the most part, the only way to tell which was what was to look at the casings lying on the ground. 5.56 works!!! Especially at close range. It does a pretty good job at piercing vehicle bodies too though 7.62 does do it better. Also, a 5.56 in the chest at 300 yards will kill you just as dead as a 7.62 at the same range.

Remember, there is a reason why Soldiers and Marines like the 5.56.

Limeyfellow
January 3, 2007, 09:51 PM
The .308 is a great round but really for home defense and cqbs the .223 is a much better choice. Now if you were also going to take deer and larger animals sure. Against people at realistic targets the .223 will do the job, be lighter and handier with less recoil and sound.

The .308 will give you much better range I admit, but you try explaining to the police how the 500 yard shot was self defense. Now if it was a civil war and you part of a guerilla warfare group than the .308 would be quite nice and handy. If you were targetting very light armour too you be better off with a .308 armour piercing round.

Still will never give up a fal, but it was really overpowered when it was forced to go to 7.62mm nato round. Now if someone would put out a fal in a round it was designed for closer to 7mm (perhaps 6.8spc) that would be a fantastic rifle in a smaller compact form.

geekWithA.45
January 3, 2007, 10:01 PM
Having both, I'll say you could do w/ either.

I'd also say that given a choice, I'd much prefer .223 for a situation I *know* will be CQBish, and of limited scope & duration.

If it's a "head for the hills!" situtation, where you have no idea how long you'll be gone or what you'll run into, I'm taking the .308.

treebeard
January 3, 2007, 10:02 PM
I will go with the .223 and that's all I am saying. :uhoh: :uhoh:

Simonovfan
January 3, 2007, 10:32 PM
.223 in close. .308 at range. Personally, I'll choose my 7.62x39 for long term survival in the hills. :D It's plenty fine for deer or two legged predators. ;)

cracked butt
January 3, 2007, 10:46 PM
It depends on the situation-
If you will be fighting blue-helmeted ninja grizzly bears, the .308 all the way.
If you will be fighting hordes of zombies at close range and need to make quick head shots and need more magazine capacity, the .223 really shines.

:D

usmcdoc14
January 3, 2007, 11:10 PM
can I choose neither? :D

ok, if I could ONLY choose either :neener:

308, preferably a short or para FAL, EOTech/aimpoint, a light and that's it. No 100 round drums, no bipods, no vert fore grip, no 20 feet of picatinny.

QCB you have a moot point with both rounds. You are going to have to select a good round in either to prevent overpenetration. But my key points are I do NOT ever like to be undergunned. Also not all "homes" are made of wood.

Spalling of .223 vs .308 tells me what I would rather have :evil:

Jenrick
January 3, 2007, 11:31 PM
For plinking: Depends on the range you plink out, .223 is limited to about 600m of solid ballistics, though you can go out to 800-900 with the right equipment and practice. .308 is good all the way to 1000+. All lot of this depends on the rifle of course. A bone stock FAL and M-4 aren't 800m rifles. Cost wise .223 is cheaper.

CQB/Home Defense: At these closes ranges, it's a toss up. A .223 might over penatrate less, but it'll still over penatrate. Both will put a man down properly placed, and both have enough energy to turn multiple marginal hits into a serviced target. Realistically which ever platform you handle better and can react faster with is the best. If you have a faster first round time with a .308 use it over a slower .223. Followup shoots only count if you're not down and out too. Also at those distances followups from both a .308 and a .223 are about the same in a practical view (not countings 1/100ths of seconds and such).

SHTF: Are you bugging in or out? If bugging out, then a .223 is usually lighter, and you can carry more ammo. It's effective on all game smaller then medium deer, and with good placement is effective well into the elk sized game (remember, a .22LR has taken the African Big 5, it's much more about the shooter). As a long range anti-personal cartridge, it'll be effective out to 600m or so with the right weapon. A .308 is heavier and will give you less carry capacity. It is effective on pretty much all North American game. As a long range anti-personal cartridge, if you have the right rifle and the right skills, 900m+.

If bugging in, ,.223 is probably cheaper to stock pile. Both calibers will be equally effective in maintaining security around your residence unless you have 600m+ lanes of fire. .223 ball will penetrate most things fairly well, as will .308 ball. The edge probably goes to .308 in straight barrier penetration.

Overall, either one is a fine round. Find what you enjoy shooting more, and are more proficent with. Then purchase accordingly. If you end up with an AR and FAL, the folks here will be more then happy to take the unused one off your hands.

-Jenrick

HorseSoldier
January 4, 2007, 12:21 PM
Still will never give up a fal, but it was really overpowered when it was forced to go to 7.62mm nato round. Now if someone would put out a fal in a round it was designed for closer to 7mm (perhaps 6.8spc) that would be a fantastic rifle in a smaller compact form.

DSA makes some of their hunting models in 260 Remington, if I'm not mistaken. I've been curious about what a tactical carbine chambered for that round would do -- a little burlier than 6.8mm SPC, but still not as over-powered as .308. The $$$$ aspect of setting that up and running it on the range has stopped me from really looking into it.

DMK
January 4, 2007, 01:57 PM
Take a look at the Ballistic Gel pics on this page (http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=237): .308 110gr TAP (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/308_TAP_comparison.jpg), .308 155gr. TAP (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/308_TAP_comparison.jpg), and the 5.56mm 77gr (http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/77grSMK.jpg).

AndyC
January 4, 2007, 06:35 PM
For those of you who have taken formal CQB training, you'll appreciate how physically exhausting it is when done properly; each person will differ in what they can handle. Use whatever rifle you prefer as long as you're able to wield it safely, efficiently and effectively.

Squidward
January 4, 2007, 10:21 PM
I like .223. So it is better! (for me)

ForeverArmed
January 5, 2007, 03:02 AM
I like 5.56 NATO for home defense, mainly because of the steel core. The low recoil is also handy, and bullet fragmentation in tissue can leave impressive wounds.

If common criminals were all I was concerned about, then I'd stick with a 12 gauge and nothing else for home defense. But the Second Amendment is about shooting government thugs who kick in your door to haul you off to prison (or worse) just for exercising your Constitutional rights. Such a SHTF scenario can happen (it happened to the people at Waco, for example). If you ever have to shoot someone wearing heavy body armor, steel core ammo is nice to have. It's an NIJ Class IV threat, compared to Class III for 7.62 NATO (which is lead core).

If 7.62x51 were readily available to civilians in steel core, then I'd choose that. And since 7.62x51 is clearly the better long-range round but can also work effectively at short ranges, I think it's the better all-around round.

toecutter
January 5, 2007, 08:34 AM
I have to admit, I never considered the .308 as a "CQB" gun. Every time I've ever seen it done it ended with a lot of "wow I'm never doing that again".

I was helping out a friend (who does law enforcement training) with a few groups from our local boys in blue. There was a lot going on that day, and most of the groups up there had obviously gotten thier homeland security money.

One group had gone out and bought a bunch of socom (the 1's) for thier "tacti-cool entry team". Another had bought a bunch of suppressed full auto 9mm ar's. Others just had the standard 11.5x4.5" CAR-15's.

The group with the socom 1's were towards the end of the day. The AR-15's in .223 were loud in the shoothouse, but not unbarably so. When it came time for the guys with the socom's to come in, it could best be described as a comedy of failures.

The reality of it was, you may as well flashbang yourself rather than shoot a .308 indoors, especially with something with a short barrel. Pretty much, after about 10 shots between them (1 hit, rest missed) it was prooven pretty definitively that the .308 was simply too much gun for them. It was also proven that when you have poor coordination, and let go with a "double tap" of .308 inside the entry way of a shoot house, you better be wearing both plugs and muffs, and hope you have lots of light, or you will neither hear, nor see anything ahead of you.

Last time I saw the same group, they had come back with regular AR-15's and a double helping of humbleness for the job they do. Still though, I fell out of my chair laughing when they started. After 2 shots one guy was screaming because he had caught too much muzzle blast, there was all this other commotion. and for about 10 seconds the instructor thought they had shot each other.

RockyMtnTactical
January 5, 2007, 03:25 PM
.223 for sure.

sthomper
November 17, 2010, 07:22 AM
i have seen various websties with close quarters rifles....styer (.223)for one and some springfield (.308) offerings....if they are true, i dont know.

i am not sure if having a magazine release in front of the trigger is quicker or better or not.

as for caliber, i have been trying to find penetration info for .308 and .223 online....things like steel doors or brick walls etc but haven been able to find much. apparently shooting someone with either round from 10 to 30 yards (a likely cqb distance?) would likely cause death or incapacition. what common barriers in urban settings would the .308 have a better chance at getting thru and is that likely enough to occur in a way that offsets the extra ammo/lower recoil characteristics that one can carry in the .223 caliber. perhaps someone makes those decisions currently for various security forces. i dont know.

if armed personell are making there way thru a cq area with fingers on the trigger then overpenetration probably isnt an issue at that point.

sthomper
November 17, 2010, 07:32 AM
many say something about .223 bullets tumbling or fragmenting within certain ranges and increasing their lethality. if it fragments thru a barrier that would seem like a loss of mass and energy. if it only fragments once thru flesh then perhaps two reduced energy projectiles do more damage. but i am not sure about the claims of .223 ballistics on impact. a video of .223 passing thru wood block didnt show any fragmenting.

sadly, many on these forums dont do accurate info. often deliberate falshoods.

JDMorris
November 17, 2010, 08:35 AM
well. If I KNEW people were coming tonight, I would get my dads AR. but, if I ever had issues with people in cars shooting at me, they would get some .308 FMJ.

Al Thompson
November 17, 2010, 08:53 AM
Zombie!

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