Hunting video - very troubling


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qlajlu
October 21, 2006, 02:23 AM
Watch this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8838826276057835069&q=hog+hunting+video&hl=en).

I find this very troubling. If ever the Four Rules were violated, it is here. That one hunter is very lucky to walk away with his life. That whole scene is bad. There is an apparently enraged, attacking wild boar, and a hunter in the way of shots fired.

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solareclipse
October 21, 2006, 03:11 AM
quite improper to draw conclusions about the situation. they were moving, could have simply been going to a vantage point, you never know. the boar ambushed them and they saved their buddy's life.

would you have rather they not shoot and let the boar impale him? rules are only rules to the point of common sense.

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 06:31 AM
I lean more towards qlajlu's opinion. You just don't shoot at a target directly in front of your buddy.

brerrabbit
October 21, 2006, 06:32 AM
Ever seen what a boar can do with those tusks? I think most of the shots were aimed downwards and while possibly in the direct line of the other hunter, considering the circumstances, I think them boys did fine.

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 07:23 AM
I'd suggest that that's fine, but everyone should be on-board with those rules before heading out. The other guys have a right to know what they're getting into before heading out, and I think you'd have a duty to tell them.

HighVelocity
October 21, 2006, 07:44 AM
Not only were shot's fired at the boar when the other hunter was in the background, it appears the one that slide down the hill swept the other two with his rifle. :what:

280PLUS
October 21, 2006, 08:02 AM
Somebody's lucky. Fortunately not the hog... :eek:

larry starling
October 21, 2006, 09:39 AM
I guess it would have been fine to let your partners get roughed up by the boar as long as you didn't violate the 4 rules....with out being there it's pretty easy to judge something. But if you or I had to make a split decision in the matter of a few seconds can you honestly say you wouldn't do the same thing they did???:fire:

blarney
October 21, 2006, 09:56 AM
Wild Boars are some mean nasty animals and though the 4rules were not followed perfectly I don't really see the problem. Sometimes in a deadly situation you have to break some rules in order to stay alive and healthy it's the nature of the beast. Just like any other rule there are those certain and very rare circumstances where you have to ignore them. This isn't a blatant disregard for the rules but the ability to quickly asses a situation and know what to do, this is called training.

Biker
October 21, 2006, 10:07 AM
Hey, if any of you guys ever see a boar with big, sharp tusks charging at my crotchal area, feel free to break all the rules you want as long as you turn him into a big pile of future ham sandwiches before he gores my Pride 'n Joy and the Twins.
Thanks in advance...

Biker:)

Rezin
October 21, 2006, 10:23 AM
Hey, if any of you guys ever see a boar with big, sharp tusks charging at my crotchal area, feel free to break all the rules you want as long as you turn him into a big pile of future ham sandwiches before he gores my Pride 'n Joy and the Twins.

yup.....

Lupinus
October 21, 2006, 10:34 AM
the four rules are guidelines not some holy fricking scripture.

If you do some like that to me at the range expect at the very least a dirty warning look and at worse a hurtin if a bullet whizs by my head.

However, as biker has so well said, if we are ever out hunting together and out of nowhere mr wild boar comes charging at my cookies to hell with the four rules shoot the friggin thing and try not to shoot me in the process. And if the thing does get those tusks in me and your excuse is anything short of I couldn't get a clear shot and was more along the lines of something about the four rules expect a sledge hammer of verbal abuse :cuss:

AJ Dual
October 21, 2006, 10:35 AM
"The Rules" aren't a suicide pact...

hso
October 21, 2006, 10:40 AM
Ok, let's slow down.

I looked at the clip and had to back it up and run it over and over and stop and start it just to tell what happened.

It looks like the lead guy had moved back parallel with the second hunter. He also looked to be slightly down slope. That would put him out of the line of fire of the second hunter who looks to be using a handgun.

As the boar charges #2 starts to shoot first, but I can see that hunter #1 slips down slope and doesn't catch his footing and starts to slide down hill. About the same time the boar starts to swing down hill slightly like it's following his motion. At the same time it sounds like the third hunter, the guy farthest away from the boar, starts shooting as the boar comes into line past #2.

As the boar and hunter #1 slide/fall down hill I think both #2 and #3 are shooting at the boar. Probably a bad idea, but they're caught up in the moment without seeing their buddy is in the line of fire part of the time.

Eventually the boar is headed almost straight down slope and #1 is angeling off to the right while #2 and #3 are shooting straight down slope at the boar and not towards #1.

Check and see if I've seen that correctly.

dragongoddess
October 21, 2006, 10:46 AM
After watching the video several times I hear several pistol shots and 1 rifle shot. From what I can see it was the other guy with the rifle uphill that shot. Problem is the shot looked to be in front of the guy with the pistol.

It was a lucky day for at least 2 of the three hunters if not all three.

Funny that there was a camera there to catch this. One wonders if this was a staged event that went bad.

Mr White
October 21, 2006, 10:55 AM
Maybe it was Dick Cheney hunting. Didja ever think of that possibility? :D

dragongoddess
October 21, 2006, 10:56 AM
Nah Dick would have had a heart attack walking over ground like that.

strambo
October 21, 2006, 11:00 AM
the four rules are guidelines not some holy fricking scripture.
"The Rules" aren't a suicide pact... ;)
I think those without military experience, especially infantry/CQB type have a hard time understanding what is appropriate to train for and in combat vs just shooting in more normal circumstances.

You have to point real guns at people to do FoF training. Your gonna be shooting very close to people in CQB. We would engage as close as 1 meter in front of someone else (with the angle of fire not towards them). Now, if the backdrop...is your buddy that isn't good. As long as there is an angle where your rounds aren't going directly toward him, then your good to go. One obviously starts off slow at a "crawl" pace with walkthroughs, then dry-fire, then blank fire (walk), then if everything is safe...live fire (run).

It looks to me like you reversed your analysis HSO. The shots are fired at the Boar by #2 & #3 from left to right while the hunter is going down the hill. That's why he didn't get hit by gunfire, good angle. As the boar falls faster than the hunter, the angle puts it in line with him, but I didn't hear a shot at that point. The hunters did right and stopped when the angles were bad (by luck or design, I don't know).

Edit: just played and paused it over and over. The first 5 shots had a good to passable angle...the very last shot #6 had the hunter in, or very, very close to the direct line of fire but it looks like the shot went into Mr. piggy. I've had a SAW in CQB shoot as close to me as shots 1-4...5&6 were too close.

meef
October 21, 2006, 11:17 AM
I'm one of those fortunate people who has been blessed with absolutely perfect 20-20 hindsight. I am the proverbial Monday Morning Quarterback.

My analysis and decision making capabilities have always been faultless on any situation I've had the opportunity to review after it occurred and decide what should have in fact been done.

The really neat part about this ability is how it also allows me the luxury of picking apart other people's actions and sagely advising them as to what they should have done, too.

Now... if I could only get that remarkable talent to work quite as well when I'm under fire, I'd have it made.

:cool:

Werewolf
October 21, 2006, 11:26 AM
The four rules apply to controlled shooting environments.

They do not apply in a combat environment and that's exactly the environment that hunter being attacked by the boar was in.

He is very lucky that his buddies thought fast and reacted in a manner that quite possibly saved his life.

All you anal, zero tolerance, range nazi types need to get a grip and think about what can and does happen in the real world and realize that on occassion situations occur where the rules not only need to be but absolutely must be broken.

Fosbery
October 21, 2006, 11:35 AM
The hunter who slides down the hill was not lined up with theo ther two hunters and the boar until after they stopped shooting, and even then it was only for a fraction of a second.

Even if the board had been directly inbetween them, the four rules simply do not apply in this sort of situation. They are for hunting, target shooting, drilling etc. Not for self defence (as this is) or combat. In those situations they are just a wish list of things you'd like. It would be nice if you could be sure of what is beyond your target for instance, but in combat this is often impossible.

strambo
October 21, 2006, 11:39 AM
Sarcasm noted meef, but I find my life goes a lot easier when I learn from other people's mistakes as opposed to when I insist on making them all myself. You can make all the mistakes you want...as long as you don't make the one that kills you.:scrutiny:

The mistakes made by 4 Blackwater operators in '04 and my "monday morning quarterbacking" was foremost in my mind when I advised our PSD team to turn down a mission in Iraq with similar difficulties. Would we have been surrounded by a mob, dragged out and lynched by the nearly 3.5 million Shia's in that area? Would we have been hit in one of the 3 large bombings by Sunni's trying to ignite a civil war that happened that day? Beats me, didn't seem worth the risk for the value of the mission in foresight. We weren't delivering perishable organs to a hospital for a dying patient or anything. In hindsight our decision was certainly backed up by the high Shia body count from all the bombings in the area.


Now... if I could only get that remarkable talent to work quite as well when I'm under fire, I'd have it made You do that by, instead of thinking the lesson applies to others, applying it to yourself and conduct rehearsals based on your analysis. I am used to "monday morning quarterbacking" all the operations I do too. It's called an after action review.

To relate it to this situation, If I was gonna go on a group hunt, you bet we'd have a discussion on angles of fire in an emergency. Could show 'em this video and talk about our spacing, how we were gonna walk etc... I don't hunt, so I just do this as it pertains to live fire training and combat.

We watch videos of fellow soldiers getting hit by IEDs and ambushes and monday morning quarterback the heck out of those too. Not because we are better than them, but because we know we are them and we can only survive by becoming better.

Gunpacker
October 21, 2006, 12:06 PM
Not sure, but it appears that the 4 rule advocates would rather the hog just tore up the hunters. Something that we would not do when being "perfectly safe" are permissable when a greater danger appears. I would rather have a well trained friend shoot within a few inches of me than to allow an attacking knife wielder to get to me, for instance.

strambo
October 21, 2006, 12:21 PM
You always want to apply all 4 rules if you can. Sometimes ya gotta break one. Like point a firearm at a person for force on force training. Or shoot a BG, sweep the hostage and shoot the BG on the other side. Not gonna lower the muzzle, then come back up again. In this scenario, they could have followed all 4 rules (as in it would have been possible), but I believe violated rule #4 with shot #6.

Treat all firearms as if loaded, check. Keep finger off trigger until ready to fire, check. Don't point at anything you don't wish to destroy, check-only pointed at Boar as far as I could tell. Know target and what's behind it, for shots 1-5 check, shot #6 buddy behind target. May have had a brief muzzle sweep of buddy at some point, but it's hard to tell based on a home video.

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 12:28 PM
There's no reason you can't plan for contingiencies and still be safe. If people want to modify safety rules ahead of time they can suit themselves, I'd just suggest they all agree upon it ahead of time, without feeling pressured.

William tell may have been an expert shot, and he may have hit the apple and missed his son, but he still killed all the men afterwards for making him take that risk.

.38 Special
October 21, 2006, 12:41 PM
On a completely different note...

Cool. A wild boar proving that he is, in fact, "dangerous game". The gentlemen in question knew -- or should have known -- that they were going afield with deadly weapons after dangerous game. This is not safe, as gentleman #1 nearly discovered.

Bottom line: you plays the game, you takes your chances. As Cooper noted "The situation has been known to get out of control". You have to trust your hunting partners with your life -- even if you're not after dangerous game, you are all armed -- and if you cannot, you should find different partners or hunt by yourself.

If I have any criticism of the video, it is that I like to imagine that in #1s shoes, I would have stood my ground and solved my own troubles, rather than running and jeopardizing myself and my party.

That is, of course, very easy to say in the comfort of my own den!

WayneConrad
October 21, 2006, 12:43 PM
I guess they should have drawn up a "Four Rules, and the Allowable Exceptions Thereto" contract before they went hunting, and had it reviewed by their lawyers. Then they could undergo appropriate training with Four Rules experts before going hunting.

Or they could just react promptly to danger, trading off one risk for another, and take care of an emergency. Such as they did.

Sheesh.

Is someone going to tell me I shouldn't run with my backpack on, because there are scissors in it?

atblis
October 21, 2006, 12:53 PM
"get your gun ready!"

THe first guy was supposed to shoot the pig with his rifle. He fumbled/F.U. and the second guy with the pistol was his backup. He did in fact back him up.

Rather sloppy, but sometimes that's how things work out

Jon Coppenbarger
October 21, 2006, 01:13 PM
I have been in a situation close to that a few times. It is not fun. The first thing that comes to mind because it was on video is that I believe something was going on.
Did they know the hog was there or close to that spot? Was it already wounded and they had seen it hole up?

I had a client wound one and wanted to go into the heavy brush to get it. way to much danger as it was heavy brush so we waited tell I could get a dog on it. It was dead but I did not want to face a wounded 275# boar at 5 to 10 feet either.

I did not like the video or some of the things that they did but hell they lived threw it. It not fun have to make a trip to the emergengy room and then to the vet all in the same day after pig hunting. Been there done that as when everything happens fast you just try to react the best you can.

.38 Special
October 21, 2006, 01:15 PM
The first thing that comes to mind because it was on video is that I believe something was going on.
That struck me too. And not just one camera, but apparently two. Hmm...

panzermk2
October 21, 2006, 01:36 PM
when things get that FUBAR all rules go out the window. That was Big $ss boar and could have Killed one of those guys. It needed to be put down and fast.
Reminds me of some of those old Capstic film clips of him when surprised by a pissed Cape Buff. You shoots until you can't shoots no more and hope you hit the critter someplace were it slowed it down.

f4t9r
October 21, 2006, 03:23 PM
Never no whats going to happen and this is a good example.
People do not always do the right thing when under surprise or pressure.
Glad no hunters got shot

Amish_Bill
October 21, 2006, 03:49 PM
Personally, if it's the choice between getting winged by the bullet(s) that kill the Dangerous Critter, or letting the Dangerous Critter have it's way with my squishy bits, I'll take the risk of a few scars and an interesting story to tell.

Going after the meaner of God's creations is not a safe game. If things go wrong and you can't count on your buddies to make decisions that will get you back with as few injuries as possible, well, you made a bad choice of hunting buddies.


Life: Learning it is all about mastering the Rules. Mastering it is knowing when to break them.

Fosbery
October 21, 2006, 04:00 PM
Just a thought: when hunting boar, would it not be prudent to hunt with a bayonet attached for when the boar charges you?

Werewolf
October 21, 2006, 04:16 PM
Just a thought: when hunting boar, would it not be prudent to hunt with a bayonet attached for when the boar charges you?I've read that some folk do indeed hunt wild boar with just a spear. In fact - the gunshop where I spend the majority of my hobby money sells boar spears - wicked looking things.

I think anyone that goes boar hunting with just a spear has very big brass ones - hell - maybe even steel ones.

Fosbery
October 21, 2006, 04:19 PM
Well before firearms boar were hunted with spears (not bows), but I was only suggesting a bayonet be used as a backup. If your first shot misses or dosn't kill the charging boar, and you don't have time for a second, he will run himself onto your blade.

Lupinus
October 21, 2006, 04:21 PM
I think anyone that goes boar hunting with just a spear has very big brass ones - hell - maybe even steel ones.

Hell I'd do it with a spear.

Now a knife I would say you are nuts. But a spear? Hell yeah :evil:

ETXhiker
October 21, 2006, 06:02 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the famous lion video. Now, if you want to see a situation where it's a miracle someone didn't get shot, check this out:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/lionhunt.html

axeman_g
October 21, 2006, 06:02 PM
Find some deep south Ga or Fla boy and ask them if they ever wrestled a boar! There are many of good ole boy that does this for fun, running them to the ground from behind. Hell I even saw Dick Butkus do it on TV once. That being said, I am not volunteering for that day of fun.

I once had to end an argument between my English Setter and a mountain boar while grouse hunting. Dog need sutures, board needed more salt.

It looks like a guided hunt, might haven even been canned, but it appears to me that the boar was wounded before, the way when he bluff charges the first time then immediatly without holding anything back charges. He was scared and hurt IMHO. That being said, is the rifle shot by the gentlman plowing the hillside with his bottom? If so, that is the really scary part of that video. I think he shot uphill with the boar between him and his partners.

It looks like the guide is the one with the handgun (sounds like a .40) who ends it. Or maybe it is the rifle shot?

SoCalShooter
October 21, 2006, 06:08 PM
Thanks I appreciate the video I am going boar hunting in february, however I carry a boar spear and a tomahawk, they all seemed a little bunched up however.

Wesker
October 21, 2006, 06:15 PM
C'mon guys, be realistic. Have a 250 pound wild hog charging at you do you really think you'll be in a state of mind to recite and act on the four rules?

.38 Special
October 21, 2006, 06:24 PM
Thanks for the lion video, ETXhiker. I hadn't seen it before, and it's quite exciting.

Marshall
October 21, 2006, 07:12 PM
This reminds me of a Sales Manager that was telling his salesman all he did wrong in a presentation and was making the Salesman dejected. The General Manager overheard this and asked the salesman if he made the sale. The Salesman said yes. The GM said is the customer happy? The Salesman said yes. The GM said keep it up.

Point being, if you beat someone over the head you may take away their instincts and make them second guess themselves. You might make them not even take action.

Here, I see a good thing. When it comes to saving lives, you don't question a positive outcome. Who knows, you might even piss off Angles. ;)

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 10:35 PM
WayneConrad
I guess they should have drawn up a "Four Rules, and the Allowable Exceptions Thereto" contract before they went hunting


That seems unreasonable to you? It's a couple minutes, a few words, and then everyone knows what the other guys will do and when. A coupe minutes and a few words, you must awful important if you can't spare that.

River Wraith
October 21, 2006, 10:52 PM
If I'm ever hunting with any of you guys and am charged by a wild boar, please shoot it. :eek:

WayneConrad
October 21, 2006, 10:55 PM
And, If I'm ever hunting with any of you guys and am charged by a wild lawyer, please shoot it. :D

meef
October 22, 2006, 01:02 AM
Strambo...

Your points in post #22 are well reasoned and well taken.

I think though that the difference between a group of hunters and a well-trained military unit applies here.

The thread was originally about the Four Rules being violated by those hunters suddenly finding themselves in the midst of a very dangerous situation and having to react without the luxury of meditating on what might be the "safest" course of action.

My posting (yes, sarcasm aplenty) was in response to the concept of faulting them for taking what was the instinctive thing for them to do in that danger rather than pondering on what was the textbook correct thing to do.

Sure... everybody with a brain, a sense of personal responsibility and concern for others wants to be safe in their handling of firearms.

It's just that in this particular case I am reminded of the old saying that "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's difficult to remember that your initial objective was to drain the swamp" - or something along those lines. Not saying that hunters shouldn't discuss being careful, as you suggest, but that you can't plan for every possible eventuality. And there is a difference between your average hunter and your average professional soldier.

At any rate, your service is genuinely appreciated.

strambo
October 22, 2006, 02:32 AM
Thanks meef,
My only point was there are 2 reasons why people post these things and respond. One reason may be to monday morning quarterback and gloat, feel superior. I hope this is true only for the minority of cases and posters.

The second reason and why the internet is so great is intelligent people can see something like this and think about the lessons they can apply to themselves. It isn't about criticizing the hunters anymore than I was criticizing the 4 Blackwater guys...I have tremendous respect for them. I just used their experience and mistakes to help my team stay alive. They would have wanted that and I would want the same if I died...for others to learn what they can.

The problem with high risk situations like self defense, dangerous game hunting or combat, is you cannot afford to learn by experience. Your 1st experience can kill you, too late to learn and be better. You have to learn from others and incorporate that into your realistic training and thinking.

So, some posters are just criticizing...the majority I think are trying to point out mistakes, how to correct them in order to help themselves and others in future situations.

What makes our Army good is our ability to conduct after action reviews and learn from our mistakes and not let our pride get in the way. We are having a very difficult time here in Afghanistan trying to convey that concept. They are very pridefull and will flat out refuse to talk about something they could have done better. So, it is very hard to learn and improve. They will talk about the failure of others, but that isn't the same as honest self reflection. I hope those hunters did a mini AAR to ID how to have a safer hunt next time out.

I made some embarrassing mistakes in Iraq. I wrote a "lessons learned" word document for myself for future reference, didn't pull any punches. I also cherish the feedback "course critiques" I got from my 1st class (only so far) as an NRA instructor. This is critical for any endeavor (especially high risk), its not just a military thing.

Mark Whiteman
October 22, 2006, 03:06 AM
I'm blundering into this pretty late, but I think I have a little bit different perspective to share. The local police had a hostage-taking incident in a residence a few years ago. A home invader, under the influence of chemicals, was surprised inside at night by a couple. The goblin grabbed their juvenile son and held a blade to his throat. The police, set up outside, could see this from outside through a window, and at least one officer had a shot. When it appeared the goblin was about to cut the boy, an officer took a shot through a closed window. He hit the boy instead, apparently the glass deflected the round just enough. The point being, while having the badguy hurt the boy would have been bad enough, killing him yourself is far worse. I can't imagine much sympathy if you'd killed a buddy, and have to respond, "But I was trying to save his life!"
It appeared to me that the party member nearest the hog was to the side from the shooter's perspective, and I might've taken the shot myself had the hog been about to gore my partner from that angle. The hunter appears to go down, but I think he just stumbled, as the hog definitely took a round.
If I was the target of a hog like that, I don't really have a preference between hog and .44mag, but I would prefer to keep my toodles, thank you. :cool:

TimboKhan
October 22, 2006, 03:28 AM
Call me silly, but I have no problems with this, and I have been shot. If anyone is particular about the 4 rules, it be me, mateys. It appears that these cats waited until reasonable options were gone, and took what they deemed to be appropriate steps to stop the threat. Further, I think I can forgive the guy sweeping his buddies because A: He was falling down a hill and B: He was falling down a hill with a big boar right behind him. I feel certain his mind was more focused on not getting a tusk rammed into his esophagus than it was on following the 4 rules. Could something very, very bad have happened in this instance? Absolutely! No question about that. But, something very, very bad likely would have happened had they not taken the steps they did.

BullfrogKen
October 22, 2006, 02:50 PM
Amish_Bill said: Life: Learning it is all about mastering the Rules. Mastering it is knowing when to break them.


I agree with Bill.


Are you a master of the Rules, or mastered by them.

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