.45-70 v. 12 ga slug


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Nematocyst
October 21, 2006, 03:51 AM
I've been reading the archives for days looking for an answer to this question.

Haven't found it yet, so I'll just ask.

Let's say that you are considering moving to Alaska (http://fermi.jhuapl.edu/states/maps1/ak.gif).

You already own a 12 ga shotgun.

You have an option of buying a Marlin Guide Gun (1895G) in .45-70 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/1895G.aspx).

How do the two - .45-70 & 12 ga slug - compare in terms of energy,
felt recoil & stoppage of large animals with large teeth & claws?

That is, if one were moving to AK, would you feel good with a 12 ga with slugs,
or would you prefer to have a .45-70?

Thanks in advance for your opinion.

Nem

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Eightball
October 21, 2006, 03:54 AM
I'd prefer the .45-70. More reach-out-and-touch power, you can load HP rounds, etc etc.

Slugs are just painful, and no slug gun that I know of can shoot to 300 yards. If need be, that is possible with .45-70. And it would seem to have better penetration--a must for those large, hulking animals.

Besides, you have a good excuse for another gun.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
October 21, 2006, 04:33 AM
.45-70. No question.

The best real-world rifled slug guns are reliably accurate to about 150 yards. That excludes custom, purpose built target bench models. The IDF uses the Mossberg 695 with a 3x9 scope for counter-sniping in urban situations.

Compare that with the single-shot crowd that pops bullseyes at 500 plus yards.

Granted, a .72 caliber Forster and a .500 Brenneke make big holes, but that .45 doesn't shrink and you have a much better bullet selection. I'd trust a Guide Gun.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Nematocyst
October 21, 2006, 04:50 AM
8-ball & Rabbit,

You make good points. Thanks.

Seems like good reasons to keep
the 12 ga loaded with 00
for human "home" invaders,
(or # 7 shot for birds),
& get a .45-70 for animals
with larger teeth & claws.

Keep those cards & letters coming in...

Nem

USSR
October 21, 2006, 06:34 PM
How do the two - .45-70 & 12 ga slug - compare in terms of energy,
felt recoil & stoppage of large animals with large teeth & claws?

Without a doubt, the 12 gauge slug. In Alaska, bear distances in which your life is in peril is measured in feet. Use what the guides up there use for backup (unless it's a .375 H&H), and it ain't no stinkin' .45-70. A .70 caliber, 437gr projectile will put a world of hurt on 'ol griz.

Don

Deer Hunter
October 21, 2006, 06:51 PM
Keep the shotgun. At any real distance where the bear is threatening your life, it will serve you well. You would be a fool popping shots at a grizzly at a long distance with a 45-70. You would only get his attention, and that's something you don't want. Stick with the shotgun loaded with slugs. A 3" slug at reasonable "oh S**T" distances will do just fine.

Frog48
October 21, 2006, 06:57 PM
Both. :D

Lambo119
October 21, 2006, 07:00 PM
I have to agree with the last three members. 12ga for defense is the way to go. Actually the 45-70 would be considered too light for hunting brown bear. My black bear guide in alaska carried a 12ga with collapsable stock for defensive purposes only along with a .458 wm. He also required his hunter carry a rifle .300 wm or bigger (I used a .338 wm) for black bear. I was told that my .338 would be a good "low end" cal for brown bear if I wanted to come back.

But get the 45-70 anyway for fun...

CSA 357
October 21, 2006, 07:03 PM
a 1 oz slug out of a 12 ga is awsome, i dont think you can claim self defense at 200 yards,i have a b 78 in 45-70 but for big bears up close 12 slug please

Hoppy590
October 21, 2006, 07:09 PM
The best real-world rifled slug guns are reliably accurate to about 150 yards. That excludes custom, purpose built target bench models. The IDF uses the Mossberg 695 with a 3x9 scope for counter-sniping in urban situations.

anyone got any pics of this beast?!

GunNut
October 21, 2006, 07:10 PM
I would feel safe with either of them.

My 11-87P semi-auto 12ga is quick for follow up shots, and throws a big slug at moderate velocities.

A 1895GS guide gun would be smaller, and still throws a 400gr+ round at 1600-2000FPS. Recoil is brutal and follow up shots may be slower on target than the 12ga.


Pick whichever platform you prefer and practice, practice, practice so that everything will be natural when you are under stress.

Steve

kieran
October 21, 2006, 07:16 PM
450 Marlin. ;)

Car Knocker
October 21, 2006, 07:26 PM
The .450 Marlin is just the equivalant of the hot-loaded .45-70s available without the flexibility.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
October 21, 2006, 07:57 PM
"anyone got any pics of this beast?!"

Hoppy590, isaryeret used to have a photo of it in action on their website. Let me see what I can dig up. It's gone paysite/registration only, probably due to the SF nature of things there.

http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm is the previous link redirect. The original link is:

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/mossberg/mossberg.htm

Here's a photo for reference of what an unmodified 695 looks like:
http://www.lowescertifiedguns.com/browseproducts/Mossburg-12-Gauge-Model-695.HTML

Found some on Gunbroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58624249

and here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58670590
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58909094


I ran across one on consignment about a year ago; they were asking $275 for it, which was more than the $225 I was prepared to pay for it. It was one of those that had forend problems but otherwise ok. I had the scheme to stick a nice variable on top with a bipod and punch Chryslers and paper with it, but I'm a cheap bastage and let it go to someone else.

After Googling 'Mossberg 695 sniper' I've come up snake eyes.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Gordon
October 21, 2006, 07:59 PM
Defensive: 12 ga. slug (Brenneke magnum)-it's running up the muzzle!

Offensive: 45-70 with 350 or heavier premium game loads.(if a .375H&H or bigger not available!)

;)

SoCalShooter
October 21, 2006, 08:04 PM
Personally having fired both types of rounds from a multitude of weapons. I would go with the 45-70 you may need that extra range the 45-70 can give you over the 12gauge.

Cosmoline
October 21, 2006, 08:11 PM
Both are good choices, IF loaded properly. The .45-70 offers more sectional density and better accuracy. The slug gun, IF loaded with Brenneke magnum slugs, offers comparable ft. lbs. and penetration at short range. For hunting bear, the .45-70's range and better bullet selection make it the clear winner, but inside of 25 yards both are good, again IF loaded properly. A 12 ga with buckshot or .45-70 with cowboy loads ain't gonna cut the mustard. You need heavy hardcast lead. I'd even shy away from HP .45-70's, as they won't penetrate nearly as far as the solids. If you choose the shotgun, fix it with a SLUG BARREL with rifle sights and leave the buckshot at home.

The biggest real world advantage of the slug gun over the .45-70 is the expense. They can be had for under three bills and you don't have to worry if you drop them in the Susitna. These guys who spend a grand on custom Wild West Marlins tend to be from outside, as we say.

ETXhiker
October 21, 2006, 08:19 PM
If I was moving to Alaska, I would go ahead and get the .375 H&H. Not too long ago, I was in Cabela's and stood in front of an upright mount of a brown bear around 8 feet tall. A sobering sight, for sure. It made me think there's no such thing as too much gun for one of these guys when it's up close and personal.

Cosmoline
October 21, 2006, 08:24 PM
Well, if you can't bring the firearm into action in a second or two, then it *IS* too much gun. For DLP shooting speed of presentation and ease of close range aming are the most important elements.

Nematocyst
October 21, 2006, 08:28 PM
This discussion is really helpful, folks. Thanks a bunch. I'm reading with interest and learning much.

I'm listening extra carefully to Mr. Cosmoline, 'cause he's from "the inside" as they say. ;)

Please keep those opinions coming in ...

44AMP
October 21, 2006, 10:30 PM
Will do the job, I am a big fan of the .45-70, and a long time respecter of the 12 ga. If you are concerned with defense only, you already have the shotgun. Good slug loads, and you are covered.

If you are talking about hunting bear (or being attacked by bear while out hunting something else), the .45-70 would be a sensible choice over the shotgun. And I concur with the advice against JHP in the .45-70. Hardcast will penetrate better, and penetration is what does the job in a rifle like that.

db_tanker
October 22, 2006, 12:23 AM
Someone beat me to it...

BOTH





As you have already stated, you presently own a 12 gauge...add to it with that Marlin and you will have home defense sewed up and bear medicine as well. PLUS, with modern 300 gr loads you have a perfectly viable deer rifle for 150 yard shots...mebbe put a 1-4x scope on the Marlin and call it good.

MTCW
D

rockstar.esq
October 22, 2006, 01:04 AM
The 12GA shotgun remains the single most diverse longarm I've ever encountered. It can reasonably serve all roles from the .22LR to the 45-70 plus all the 870s I've ever met would get into action faster than levers or bolts. Truth of the matter is that I can cycle my 870 faster than any of my other firearms (I don't have a semiauto rifle). I don't know squat about bears however I've come to consider them as about the most dangerous thing I'll ever come across (aside from people). The best reference will be to examine what bear hunters acually use. My guess is that most Alaskan residents fire more shots to deter than to kill. My second guess is that bear hunters shoot whatever kills with one shot. I'd keep the shotgun provided it's a pump or reliable semiauto and buy whatever the hunters there use for the bear medicine.

Nematocyst
October 22, 2006, 01:29 AM
The 12GA shotgun remains the single most diverse longarm I've ever encountered....plus all the 870s I've ever met would get into action faster than levers or bolts. Truth of the matter is that I can cycle my 870 faster than any of my other firearms (I don't have a semiauto rifle).I agree with all of those statements.

I don't know squat about bears...If you should move to AK, or anywhere else near the Arctic circle,
your knowledge of bears will increase exponentially or else natural selection will ensue.

... however I've come to consider them as about the most dangerous thing I'll ever come across (aside from people).Umm hmm.

Still, I'd rather face bears than people.

My guess is that most Alaskan residents fire more shots to deter than to kill.Hmm. Interesting hypothesis.

I'd keep the shotgun provided it's a pump...Trust me on this one:
I'll keep the shotgun (http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870synthetic.htm).
{See user name.}

;) :cool: :evil:

Bartholomew Roberts
October 22, 2006, 01:45 AM
Actually, I think you'd be surprised how far a 12ga shotgun can reach out with modern ammo.

One of the things they do at the Tac Pro Shooting Center (http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com) Primary Shotgun class is shoot open-choked 12ga shotguns at 100, 200, and 300yds with slugs. In the last class, every student got hits on 20" steel at 300yds and none of these guns were particularly special. They were all stock Remington 870 barrels.

Having said that, I still think the .45-70 would be better for your purposes.

Nematocyst
October 22, 2006, 01:51 AM
...page 2...

...every student got hits on 20" steel at 300yds
and none of these guns were particularly special.
They were all stock Remington 870 barrels.:what:

As an 870 owner,
I'm beaming with pride/excitement about that.

;) :cool:

Having said that, I still think the .45-70 would be better for your purposes.The Marlin 1895G in .45/70 does seem like a very nice gun,
and a worthy companion to the aforementioned 870...

:cool:

kieran
October 22, 2006, 06:27 AM
The .450 Marlin is just the equivalant of the hot-loaded .45-70s available without the flexibility.

i dont understand how you can claim 'without the flexibility'. you can load 45-70 ammo into a 450 marlin chambered-rifle and shoot it just fine.

Marlin created the 450 Marlin to take advantage of the improvements in receiver strength. the two cartridges share exactly the same internal dimensions, but because SAAMI 'allow' you to load a 450 marlin to higher operating pressures, it has a big magnumesque belt near the base to prevent idiots from loading it into their 45-70, which may not be strong enough to handle it safely.

think of it like a 357mag / 38 special sort of setup. flexibility aplenty.

Car Knocker
October 22, 2006, 02:45 PM
i dont understand how you can claim 'without the flexibility'.

A much wider range of off-the-shelf ammunition is available for the .45-70 than for the .450 Marlin; from 300 gr HP to 500 gr FMJFN. Commercial black powder loads reach into the 550 gr range, depending on alloy.

kieran
October 22, 2006, 04:15 PM
A much wider range of off-the-shelf ammunition is available for the .45-70 than for the .450 Marlin; from 300 gr HP to 500 gr FMJFN. Commercial black powder loads reach into the 550 gr range, depending on alloy.


you seem to have missed the bit about being able to load+fire 45-70 ammo in a rifle chambered for 450 marlin ...

redneck2
October 22, 2006, 04:30 PM
I have an 1895 Marlin .45-70 and an 870 12 gauge deer gun with a rifled barrel.

I hit a moving coyote at 140 yards a few years ago with the 870, so I think that covers the accuracy part of the equation. Sabots make a very accurate and extremely powerful combination.

While either would be adequate, if they were side by side in the safe, I'd pick up the 12 gauge first. The power of a 3" Remington copper solid has to be seen to be appreciated. Some new sabots exceed 1,900 fps IIRC.

As with many other debates here, we get too wrapped up in caliber wars instead of results. If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

BobMcG
October 22, 2006, 04:42 PM
Having stated you already own the 12ga, I say go right ahead and get yourself the .45-70. It's a tad handier for a bit more extended range game hunting. And by all means, do yourself another favor and handload for it.

Car Knocker
October 22, 2006, 06:20 PM
you seem to have missed the bit about being able to load+fire 45-70 ammo in a rifle chambered for 450 marlin ...

I look at it with a reloader's eye - I imagine that the belted area would cause the .45-70 brass to expand and most sizing dies would not be able to resize that area of the case, not to mention the weakening of the case in that area. By the way, does Marlin endorse the use of .45-70 ammo in the .450 Marlin rifles and are these rifles throated for 500+ grain loads?

kieran
October 22, 2006, 06:54 PM
By the way, does Marlin endorse the use of .45-70 ammo in the .450 Marlin rifles and are these rifles throated for 500+ grain loads?

for a reloader, I'd agree. if you're certain of the strength of your gun, 45-70 is a 'better' choice. otherwise i'd suggest the 450 for someone who doesnt reload, if they want that higher power rating.

to my knowledge, Marlin havent discouraged people from shooting 45-70 through 450Marlin chambers. i dont know about throat dimensions -- i'd not be surprised if they leaned to a longer OAL, however.

mete
October 22, 2006, 07:04 PM
You can get some very potent 45-70 loads from people like Garrett or Buffalo Bore. They work very well. You can also get some very potent and accurate 12 ga loads like the Winchester Partition . So either one will do the job if you can place the bullet accurately .Get a dog to warn you !!

roscoe
October 22, 2006, 07:10 PM
As with many other debates here, we get too wrapped up in caliber wars instead of results. If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Buffalo Bore has a 430 grain load at 1925 fps and a 500 grain load at 1625. I imagine that 500 grain load penetrates some.

Time to call Box O'Truth!

kutenay
October 22, 2006, 07:11 PM
I'm new here and live in B.C. as well as the NWT and northern AB, I have also visited Alaska and the Yukon. I used to work, solo, in Grizzly country for extended periods without relief and also supervise large forestry projects in Grizzly country. I have had about 60 encounters with Grizzlies and have seen about a dozen killed with various guns.

I have and do own/use both and now carry 2.75" Brennekes in my Benelli Nova Turkey gun and in my Merkel drilling in 12x12-9.3x74R; I also have a '70s vintage Marlin 1895 with "ghost ring" sights and a Browning 1886 SRC repro with "ghost ring" sights as well, both .45-70.

I load Swift AF-400 grs. in the Browning to about 1850 fps. and Kodiak bonded 400s in the Marlin to about the same velocity. I find these easy to pack on my backpack all day, but, harder to shoot well than my P-64s in .338 Win. or .375 H&H. So, while I do prefer the .45-70 over the 12, I have no qualms about using the 12 WITH Brennekes only and this is usually a less expensive way to go.

My coming favourite for packing in bear country is the ancient 9.3x62 in a CRF rifle, I have two pre-war Mauser sporters so chambered and love them. With the 286 NP, I get about 2400 fps-mv and this is, IMO, the best option of all for dealing with bears. I have shot lots of heavier cals., but, the weight of a .458 or .416 needed to offset recoil when apcking it in mountain country is too much, IMO. I think that a CZ-550 in 9.3x62 with a few mods is the best option here, if, you want to consider something other than the 12 or .45-70.

danang
October 22, 2006, 07:34 PM
Between the two, .45-70. Hard cast lead 400 grain gas check at 1900 fps will do the job. The .45-70 was made to penetrate the pony and the savage hiding/riding on the other side.

Cosmoline
October 22, 2006, 07:43 PM
If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

That's comparing a cowboy load with a modern magnum slug. Both platforms offer hardcast loads that will deliver 3,000 ft. lbs. or more, though the 12 ga. loses speed considerably faster. For bear defense, it's Brennke (NOT Foster, NOT home defense and NOT HP) hardcast slugs or heavy hardcast magnum loads.

Any Cal.
October 22, 2006, 10:30 PM
Just to stir things up, in my brief test, I got much more penetration from a .44 Mag 300g hardcast at 1370 fps than 600g brenneke hardcast slugs in a spruce log. The brenneke stopped in a 6 in log @20 yds, the 4 .44 slugs blitzed through it. It is a limited test, but I prefer the .44 hardcast.:)

Cosmoline
October 22, 2006, 10:42 PM
That's odd. I've seen Brenneke hardcasts blow clear through several spruce logs in a row. In fact they're my favorite tree feller for when the chainsaw isn't working. I think a more scientific and documented testing is required to declare a .44 Magnum slug the winner in that fight.

JShirley
October 22, 2006, 10:53 PM
Either should be fine- .45-70 lever w/ good, deeply penetrating ammo, or 870 loaded with Brennekes.

I planned on using my Mossberg 500 GR w/ Brennekes for close bear defence, but am getting a .35 Whelen 7600 that I think will work for close to intermediate bear work. For dedicated hunting, I would use my Territorial Outfitters .35 Whelen bolt gun. :)

John

ETXhiker
October 22, 2006, 11:02 PM
Well, if you can't bring the firearm into action in a second or two, then it *IS* too much gun.

Cosmoline, an iron sighted .375 comes up about as quick as anything. Don't know what your point is.

Cosmoline
October 22, 2006, 11:06 PM
Bears can run faster than Jesse Owens, that's my point. Let's say you have a CZ 550 Magnum in H&H. How would you be carrying it? How fast can you have it up and firing from that carrying position? These are critical considerations for a bear defense rifle. A huge magnum may prove useless in a charge situation if you have it slung around you with nothing in the chamber. I prefer a lighter rifle or shotgun, and carry them hot either in my hands, in a backpack scabbard or slug across the front with a quick release mechanism. Either a slug gun or a big bore Marlin levergun can be stowed so it can be presented with great speed and minimal messing around. Larger hunting rifles, even with iron sights, tend to be slower on the uptake and harder to tote around in your hands or resting on your shoulder.

Nematocyst
October 23, 2006, 02:22 AM
Either a slug gun or a big bore Marlin levergun can be stowed so it can be presented with great speed and minimal messing around. Larger hunting rifles, even with iron sights, tend to be slower on the uptake and harder to tote around in your hands or resting on your shoulder.Um, hmm.

What he said.

From African carry to fire position,
my 870P requires much less than a second.

Koobuh
October 23, 2006, 04:15 AM
For purely defensive use, a slug gun wins.
It's lighter, fires a larger slug, and is easier to bring to bear (har :p ).
Also:
Why on earth would you be shooting over 100 yards at a bear for defensive reasons?
There is no scenario I can think of where it would mean certain death to not fire at a bear at a greater distance.
Beyond 100 yards you're better off just leaving the area if a bear is being threatening. Just because you 'feel' threatened doesn't mean you can justify downing an apex predator at a non life-threatening range to a game officer- an important consideration many here don't seem to think about.

Nematocyst
October 23, 2006, 04:31 AM
Why on earth would you be shooting over 100 yards at a bear for defensive reasons?Indeed, there is reasonable evidence (http://www.cloudline.org/) that even at 10 yards, if you don't look directly at the bear, and just let him/her do his own thing in a non-threatening "you're in control here, I'm just passing through" kind of way, then you won't need to shoot at all.

It's all about staying cool.

Mind you, if one comes into the tent at night, unannounced, then it's likely that a slug gets loosed.

Otherwise, I'm OK with some boundary games, and am willing to live and let live.

12GA00buck
October 23, 2006, 07:15 AM
I carry a 12GA pump loaded with slugs, mostly for the versatility of having shot shells for small game. If you kill a bear is self-defense, you have to skin it and turn the hide into the Alaska department of fish and game. Bear spray has proven very effective. I typically carry both. I plan to use the pepper spray first. If, (very small chance), it doesn’t work, then I resort to slugs. I've seen a few old timers carrying 45/70's, so I trust there also effective. A well placed shot with proper loads from a 45/70, slug gun, or 30-06 will be effective. A poorly placed shot with a .460 weatherby will not. Listen to the magnum hype with a skeptical ear. Remember, Jack O' Conner killed no less than 8 brown bears with a 30-06. The Alaska Department of Fish and game is an excellent resource for bear safety and firearm choice.

FLtoAK05
October 23, 2006, 04:00 PM
I can't find where Brenneke has a "Hardcast" slug, only find where it says solid lead, which in my opinion is not hardcast, can you direct me to information to reflect such. I have used "Dixie Slugs" and feel very confident with them, the information provided from them is quite impressive. I'd hunt dangerous game with them anytime. JMHO.

WWW.Dixieslugs.com

FLtoAK05
October 23, 2006, 04:03 PM
I can't find where Brenneke has a "Hardcast" slug, only find where it says solid lead, which in my opinion is not hardcast, can you direct me to information to reflect such. I have used "Dixie Slugs" and feel very confident with them, the information provided from them is quite impressive. I'd hunt dangerous game with them anytime. JMHO.

WWW.Dixieslugs.com


gave a bad link I think......try it now.

Sorry about the double post.

Loanshark
October 23, 2006, 05:11 PM
Between the two I don't think you're really giving up much either way you go. I'd probably grab my marlin 1895 gg first if those were my only choices.

That being said I've never met up with a grizz before I've only read about encounters. What I have read is in a large amount of surprise encounters it's a pistol that saves the day. My guess is it's due to the quick handling and availability of the pistol over a longgun.

Based on the stuff I've read if I was going to spend time in Grizz/moose country not deliberatly hunting for either I'd have a .44magnum in a holster on my belt. I might also bring my .45-70 or 12 ga., but I think the sidearm may actually be more important/ better for defence. I'd even take my .45ACP rather than go with only a longgun.

JMHO

Gewehr98
October 23, 2006, 06:44 PM
In Alaska, bear distances in which your life is in peril is measured in feet. Use what the guides up there use for backup (unless it's a .375 H&H), and it ain't no stinkin' .45-70.

I've spent many of the last 20 years on assignment in Alaska, specifically the Fairbanks and Anchorage locations. While the 12 gauge slug gun may indeed be a favorite of guides there, more than a few guides and bush pilots I met packed the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70. I would wager that Ken at WildWestGuns does an alright local business in leverguns chambered for .45-70 and better, also.

If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

Only if you're loading BP or commercial powderpuff loads for a Trapdoor Springfield. I run 405gr Beartooth hardcast rounds at 2,100fps through my Ruger #1, and some of the commercially-available Level II Marlin/Winchester/Sharps loads like Buffalo Bore and Garrett are closer to the latter than the former.

Don't get me wrong, 12 gauge and 10 gauge slugs are great for big bears. 30mm GAU-8 rounds are even better, and nobody's gonna argue that the 120mm M1A2 smoothbore would make short work of a pissed-off grizzly bear. Give me a Marlin Guide Gun, and either Level II handloads, Buffalo Bore or Garrett Hammerhead commercial loads, and I'll be just fine.

Nematocyst
October 23, 2006, 08:35 PM
So, OK, I'm not keeping very good stats, but my sense is 12 ga v. .45/70 seems to be running fairly close, with a bunch of folks indicating that lives won't be lost with either (assuming reasonable skill with either gun and other disclaimers, yada yada).

So, I'm feeling comfortable with my 12 ga. It's a keeper anyway, so I can't go wrong. Check.

But just for kicks, I have a question about .45/70 recoil with the lightest rounds available (preferably factory, but if not, please specify "reload only").

(I'm asking this because I'm getting very close to buying a Marlin .30/30 which I am familiar with and like a lot, but have an option to get a .45/70 instead, but I've never shot one, only read stories :what: . I think I know what I'm going to do, but always like to cover all options...)

Here's the question: imagine that you were going to hunt deer (etc.) with a .45/70, and prefer to use a round comparable to something in .30/30 (e.g., 170).

How would the recoil of the lightest available .45/70 rnd compare with a 170 gr .30/30?

A) about the same
B) somewhat more substantial
C) far more substantial (flinch worthy)

Loanshark
October 23, 2006, 10:51 PM
There are factory loads that'll feel similar to the 30/30 that would be perfectly acceptable for deer. Well it's been a while since I shot a 30/30 but I've shot some factory 45-70 cartridges recently that I could shoot all day. They were remington rounds 405GR. IIRC, I know they aren't the lightest ones they have, so I'm sure you could find some that are comfortable to shoot. If you use the new hornaday lever revolution rounds you even get a point on the tip.

I shot some winchester rounds last time at the range and they kicked like a mule... much harder than the remington rounds. The funny thing was they were actually lighter, 300grains.

Anyone try the new hornadays in their marlin? How'd the recoil compare to others you've used?

Skofnung
October 24, 2006, 02:43 AM
On recoil, most factory loads are loaded to "trapdoor" spec, and don't kick too bad at all. They kick more than a .30-30, but it is not that bad. It is more of a push than a kick.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the question of penetration. At equal speeds, the .45-70 would penetrate deeper than a slug would it not? Or would the heavier projectile weight of the slug make up for the lack of sectional density?
Is this important when it comes to big bruins?

Dr.Rob
October 24, 2006, 03:18 AM
I have an issue with the Marlin Guide Gun.

That craptastic safety will let you drop the hammer and NOTHING happens.

:eek:

There is no good reason why a hammer block safety doesn't block the hammer from moving. Unless you want to 'risk' leaving your rifle on half cock... (as many did for a zillion years) or on an empty chamber (as some suggest) you have twice as many operations to perform under stress with a Marlin.

The push button by the trigger of the 870, plus it's lighter weight would steer me towards the shotgun. I'm pretty good with slugs out to 100 yards and I've shot good number of 45/70 loads.

I prefer the 405's to the 300's.

When it comes to slugs I prefer a 2 & 3/4inch 1oz at max dram.

Skywarp
October 24, 2006, 03:31 AM
Shotgun + extension.

8 slugs is some bitter medicine that no animal would stick around for.


Ive blasted some heavy 3" mag slugs out of my M2. Recoil wasnt bad at all and the refrigerator and car parts involved didnt fare to well. Even with my smooth bore shotgun and federals new truball slugs i can keep within a two inch group at 85 yrds (estimated distance)

Nematocyst
October 24, 2006, 05:01 AM
So, right now, I'm feeling that a Marlin .30/30 for a utility rifle will do nicely
& 12 ga slugs for larger nightmare monsters with claws & teeth.

Maybe add a .45/70 later...

nanuq
November 2, 2006, 03:02 AM
I used to carry a Marlin 20 gauge pump loaded with alternating 3/4 ounce slugs and buckshot as a camp gun; try to break them down with the slug, blast the face with buckshot if that doesn't work. Repeat as necessary. I never tried it, but I liked the theory. It was a nice, light gun I was comfortable with.

Nematocyst
November 2, 2006, 05:14 AM
Couldn't help but notice that
this thread, now on the first page of rifle country,
has 1,368 views.

That's more views than
any other thread on the first page of rifle country
outside of stickies.

Just wondering: why are so many looking here?

Rifle v. shotgun?
Interest in .45-70?
Interest in 12 ga?
Other?

ctdonath
November 2, 2006, 11:18 PM
Why?

One of my dream guns is a WWG Alaskan Co-Pilot takedown in .45/70 - at a few thousand bucks, I want to know how it compares to shotguns I already own at 1/10th the price.

db_tanker
November 3, 2006, 11:26 AM
Heh...if your going to talk about wishful thinking....


Perhaps a 450 Alaskan or a 500 Alaskan under the old Christmas tree would be a mighty fine present. :)


Hell, I would be happy with the old lever and stock chambered 348 Winchester!


D

dispatch55126
November 3, 2006, 03:19 PM
For defensive purposes, caliber is important but being comfortable and confident is even more important. Be it a 12 Ga., 45-70, or 7.62x39, if it is more than a single shot and you are comfortable with its operation and confident it will do the job, any will do. You could have the biggest caliber available, but if you are not comfortable with it, it will feel awkward and slow you down. If you're not confident in the weapon, you will hesitate and Mr. Fuzzy Wuzzy will have a chloresterol raising meal.

Gewehr98
November 3, 2006, 07:18 PM
Don't fruit the beer.

A .45-70 vs. 12 gauge slug for bear thread is indeed interesting.

Was that Haiku from Nem-870?

Jury's still out on that one...

Couldn't help but notice that
this thread, now on the first page of rifle country,
has 1,368 views.

That's more views than
any other thread on the first page of rifle country
outside of stickies.

Just wondering: why are so many looking here?

Rifle v. shotgun?
Interest in .45-70?
Interest in 12 ga?
Other?

Skywarp
November 3, 2006, 07:59 PM
its easy


All the pistol guys go all nuts about the 45ACP because there is no 46ACP.


This is .74 caliber....how could you go wrong?!

de
November 3, 2006, 10:00 PM
I have a 4570 and a 12 guage. At real close quarters. The slug.

Outlaws
November 3, 2006, 10:07 PM
I'd prefer the .45-70. More reach-out-and-touch power, you can load HP rounds, etc etc.

HP? Why on earth would you want to shoot at a Kodiak with a hollow point?


EDIT: Didn't realize there was 3 pages already lol....

Nematocyst
November 3, 2006, 10:40 PM
Was that Haiku from Nem-870?<grins>

Not unless we want to redefine Haiku. Way too many lines, way too many syllables. :p

Haiku: Seventeen-syllable verse form, arranged in three lines of five, seven and five syllables.

Just curiousity about why folks are interested in this topic (which has been interesting reading...thanks...)

Dr.Rob
November 4, 2006, 03:05 PM
The softest shooting 45/70 load would be a cast 'cowboy' load from Ultramax but you'd want ballard type rifling to stabilize it. It's a 405 @ 1100 fps.

I think the popularity in the thread reflects the general 'new found interest' in the old cartridge, particularly among hunters who have hunted with a shotgun or lavergun in the past.

Nematocyst
November 4, 2006, 11:55 PM
I shouldered a .45/70 Marlin (1895C) today for the first time.

Just after looking at the bore on the muzzle end.

Yeah, big.

Not as big as my 870, but big nonetheless.

Shouldered well. Felt good. (It WAS a Marlin lever gun, after all.)

Price tag: near $500. I put it down. (I'm looking for a used 336 in .30-30.)

Still, nice gun. I can understand the allure.

Someday, maybe...

Gifted
December 30, 2006, 08:32 AM
you can load 45-70 ammo into a 450 marlin chambered-rifle and shoot it just fine.How does that work? I looked this up from another thread, and having my reloading book(lyman's 48th) out and such-can you make a gun that will take a rimless cartridge, and a rimmed one .076 larger? Doesn't quite make sense to me.

sacp81170a
December 30, 2006, 09:18 AM
Then again, there's always the .458 Socom which throws a 300 grainer at 1900 fps, almost duplicating the ballistics of a .45-70. Best of all, it gives you an excuse to buy an AR and get the .458 upper. A standard AR mag holds 10 rounds of .458 with no modification. Fast follow-up, ten rounds, AND an excuse to buy another gun! :evil:

(HAD to throw that one in, just to add to the variety.) ;)

Orr89rocz
December 31, 2006, 03:46 AM
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Buffalo Bore has a 430 grain load at 1925 fps and a 500 grain load at 1625. I imagine that 500 grain load penetrates some.

Time to call Box O'Truth!

those loads have been used successfully on all species of DANGEROUS AFRICAN game.... hippos, rhino, cape buff's and i think elephant if i recall right.

those loads are HOT and will fully penetrate cape buffalo and hippo, so i think they will be ample for grizz.

guide guns arent the heaviest thing tho...and recoil with those loads will be substantial.



my 870 12 gauge uses winchester platinum tip 400 grain sabots at 1700 feet per second. very accurate at 100yards and provides a decent amount of energy. recoil is stout but not bad.
there is also 385 grain partition golds that go at 1900ft/s. they are designed to expand tho so for penetration purposes on a grizz at close range, i'm not so sure about.

but bigger objects hit harder...more energy transfer due to more surface area to apply the force to. 70+ caliber slugs seem beneficial.

i'd look into Federal rifle slugs and some of the other big top end rifle slugs. my 2 3/4" federals pushed a 547 grain slug at 1520ft/s. the 3incher is over 1600 i believe. thats ALOT of energy at close ranges...but recoil in my light winchester 1300 pump was SUBSTANTIAL even with ported choke tube lol. follow up shots are hard to get off which makes u consider those slugs in a life/death situation with dangerous game.

but in a properly controlled gun, those slugs create alot of energy and a BIG HOLE. lots more hitting surface area that will punish tissue and bone. and in a pump gun, its hard to get faster shots. i know some quick lever guys but pump shotguns can be wicked fast.

it be a hard call with either gun, but i'd feel safe. with either the 45/70 with the hot hard cast aftermarket loads, or 12 guage with big slugs, they both will get the job done. the gauge tho seems like it would be faster to get alot of shots off, but shot placement would be more important. but missed shots happen in those situations, and a missed shot from a larger bullet would be better to have than a missed shot from a small bullet

jcord
December 31, 2006, 11:40 AM
Senior Member



Join Date: 08-05-05
Location: B'tween th' Cascades & th' Pacific
Posts: 2,873 OK, another question about recoil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, OK, I'm not keeping very good stats, but my sense is 12 ga v. .45/70 seems to be running fairly close, with a bunch of folks indicating that lives won't be lost with either (assuming reasonable skill with either gun and other disclaimers, yada yada).

So, I'm feeling comfortable with my 12 ga. It's a keeper anyway, so I can't go wrong. Check.

But just for kicks, I have a question about .45/70 recoil with the lightest rounds available (preferably factory, but if not, please specify "reload only").

(I'm asking this because I'm getting very close to buying a Marlin .30/30 which I am familiar with and like a lot, but have an option to get a .45/70 instead, but I've never shot one, only read stories . I think I know what I'm going to do, but always like to cover all options...)

Here's the question: imagine that you were going to hunt deer (etc.) with a .45/70, and prefer to use a round comparable to something in .30/30 (e.g., 170).

How would the recoil of the lightest available .45/70 rnd compare with a 170 gr .30/30?

A) about the same
B) somewhat more substantial
C) far more substantial (flinch worthy)

I bought a guide gun to deer hunt. I already have a 30-30. I used the Remington 300 grain load to kill my deer this year and its recoil was about the same as my 30-30 with hot 170s.
I like my 30-30 and have hunted with it for 30+ years, but the guide gun is just as handy and fun to shoot. The cost of ammo is the killer unless you reload. The average cost of a box of 30-30 is 12 dollars in my area. 45-70 cost 26 dollars a box. I reload both so cost is less of an issue. I bought my guide gun the week before Thankgiving and I am still in love.

yooper_sjd
December 31, 2006, 12:03 PM
i own both the 1895 (gov) .45/70 and reload for it also and a rem 870 .12 ga.
You want the reach and knockdown, go with with the .45/70. You can custom reload with upto a 505 grain projectile. but the recoil will let you know it also. But I also reload with hoped round I rather enjoy shooting also, it is .45 cal saboted .357 185 grain JHP. HOT HOT HOT. Range, Speed, and Knockdown all in one round, with a easy recoil.

.12 gage is good for close range with a slug, but if you pee off a big bear at 40 + yds with a slug gun, how steady are you at shooting at a charging 800 + lb bear charging you.

In the long run the choice is yrs. I would listen to the people that live up in that area, and go with the range and knock down power.

stevelyn
December 31, 2006, 01:04 PM
I've participated in DLP shoots on Peninsula bears. I have a .375 at my disposal if I want. In all of the DLP kills I've done, I used my 870 and Brenneke slugs with complete pass throughs on broadside and quartering shots.

If you have a shotgun you are already comfortable with, keep it and use it. You won't gain anything with a new .45-70 other than the :cool: factor and a lighter wallet. At bear defense ranges the rifle isn't going to do anything for you that your shotgun stoked with Brenneke slugs won't already do.

I will stress that using the original 1 1/8 oz Brenneke is your best bet. I've yet to recover one from a shoot. The way they are designed they tend to act like a hardcast bullet.

This year alone one of the locals had to kill two in his yard. Both were shot at close range (20 ft) with Foster slugs. One was recovered flattened out under the skin on the off side and the other exited after passing through ribs and lungs and not hitting any significant bone or muscle structure.

Fosters can work okay, but I'd rather place my bets with the Brenneke. The Alaska State Troopers also issue the Brenneke for their fish and feather folks.

mountainclmbr
December 31, 2006, 01:11 PM
Keep the 12 ga and get the 45-70 with a 2-7X (LONG EYE RELIEF) scope. I have the 444 Marlin and it is hard to shoot without a long eye relief scope. It is hard to shoot accurately knowing you are going to get your eyebrow creased!

Nematocyst
December 31, 2006, 05:08 PM
This continues to be an interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all for sharing your opinions and knowledge. I'm learning lots. (In particular, that I may ultimately want a guide gun in .45/70, but not necessarily for the reasons I thought I did when I started this thread. ;) )

It's interesting to see two radically different tools - in this case a shotgun and a rifle - compared and contrasted for a particular job and come out (from my perspective) relatively evenly.

Now a request: I need a better education about slugs. Would someone(s) please post a good page or four (THR shotgun forum or other) on slugs, particularly about the different types (e.g., Brenneke, Foster, Sabbot, etc). A review offering comparison and contrast, pros and cons for different types of barrel (rifled v. smooth) would be most useful.

(Yes, I know I can use search function in the shotguns forum, but I suspect some of you have a good page or two already bookmarked...)

Nem

gbran
December 31, 2006, 07:26 PM
I spent 10 days in the AK wilds last year. Some of my guides use shotties. 1st round is buckshot to the face to give the bear pause, followed by slugs. Sounded pretty good to me.

jcord
December 31, 2006, 09:17 PM
It's interesting to see two radically different tools - in this case a shotgun and a rifle - compared and contrasted for a particular job and come out (from my perspective) relatively evenly.


I do not see them as relatively even. Although a 12 gauge pump is a hard hitting reliable stopper Shotgun shells especially slug loads are very hard to waterproof and AK is a very wet environment. If I were to trust my life to a shotgun it better have water tight ammo. I have had shells get wet duck hunting and fail to fire. When that happens duck hunting you lose dinner, if it happens in a bear defense role YOU ARE DINNER!:eek:

JohnKSa
December 31, 2006, 09:49 PM
i dont understand how you can claim 'without the flexibility'. you can load 45-70 ammo into a 450 marlin chambered-rifle and shoot it just fine.The rim of the 45/70 is a good bit larger than the rim on a 450 Marlin. I don't think you're going to get 45/70 to chamber in a .450 Marlin rifle.Marlin created the 450 Marlin to take advantage of the improvements in receiver strength. the two cartridges share exactly the same internal dimensions.The .450 Marlin actually has slightly less case capacity (about 3 grains less) than the 45/70. Which means that:

1. The aren't identical in internal dimensions.
2. You can get more velocity out of the 45/70 than the .450 Marlin with the same powder/bullet & at the same pressure.

Which gets us back to the original comment. There's a much wider variety of loads available for the 45/70. Unless you reload, the 45/70 is a much more versatile choice than the .450. And if you do reload, you can get more performance from the 45/70 than the .450 due to it's larger case capacity.

As far as the 12ga vs the 45/70, you're going to get better accuracy, longer range and better penetration with the 45/70--dunno if there are any practical differences there in terms of the application under consideration. Recoil is pretty similar. I'd feel reasonably well armed with either.

de
December 31, 2006, 10:19 PM
After looking at the comparison of the 4570 loaded at 1800 or 1900fps with a 405gr bullet of ANY configuration and a 1 ounce 12 guage slug at around 1600 fps is there any real comparison. The guy seems to want a defensive round for large furry critters with teeth, claws and bad attitudes. Professional African big game guides have been using the 12 guage slug as a backup FOR ALL DANGEROUS GAME for years.:eek: What does that tell you? I have a Rem. Model 1100 with a 21 inch barrel, rifle sights, and black synthectic stocks, and seven round magazine extension. It will shoot one hole clover leaf groups of magum 1 ounce slugs at fifty yards. I can't imagine having a better charge stopper on any dangerous game. Can you? JMHO

____hoot____
December 31, 2006, 11:41 PM
Funny thing, but historically neither of these were used much for serious work up there as the modern hot loads did not exist. When I was in Alaska thirty+ years ago what you saw were model 86 Winchesters modified to the 450 Alaskan wildcat load[a lot of them!] or bolt rifles in 375 or 458. Nobody that had a choice trusted the old foster type slugs to do the job in the shotgun or the factory loads in the 45-70.

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