Stopin Power!!!!!!!!!!!!


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wacki
October 21, 2006, 05:30 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/574.jpg

That is the ballistics gel of a "puny" 5.7 x 28 mm cartridge from a FN Five-Seven.

For a handgun that can carry 20 rounds that looks pretty damn impressive to me. I did a wiki on about a 1/2 a dozen other rounds and didn't find any gels. Does anyone know how this compares to other handgun rounds? It seems to me that this width of the ballooned gel is bigger than some rifle rounds. Stuff like this makes me wonder if tiny rounds are better than a lot of big lead rounds.

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harvester of sorrow
October 21, 2006, 05:39 AM
Was it actually fired from a Five-seveN, or a P-90?

EvisceratorSrB
October 21, 2006, 05:50 AM
I've always wanted to fire a Five-Seven. If you think about it, a 9mm is a 9x19 measurement, I believe .355, correct? The 5.7 should be somehwere around .230, with 9 more mm of casing to go! The FN Five-Seven looks so sweet too :)

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 06:26 AM
One test does not a conclusion make.

armoredman
October 21, 2006, 10:34 AM
Any actual shooting data yet?

M2 Carbine
October 21, 2006, 10:35 AM
I've got the FN 5.7 (pistol).

The jury is still out.
I'm not ready to trade my 45ACP for the 5.7 yet but it does do some interesting things.

I like to test and compare bullets in different materials, BUT I don't believe any material, even jello, is proof positive of what effect a bullet will have in a actual shooting.

I compared the 5.7 HP (SS195) and Hornady V Max bullet rounds and several pistol rounds in wet phone books. Judging by the lack of penetration of the 45ACP the wet books are a pretty good bullet stopper.

The 5.7 HP bullet turned sideways about two inches into the books and continued sideways cutting a pretty good hole. The Hornady bullets mushroomed.
The SS195 bullet is doing 2,000+ fps from the 4.5 inch pistol barrel and the Hornady V Max is doing 1690 fps.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/FNphonebooks2.jpg

M2 Carbine
October 21, 2006, 10:46 AM
armoredman
Any actual shooting data yet?

That's what I'm waiting for.

There's a couple incidences making the rounds on the internet but they sound like 75 percent BS.

There is some interesting testing by reloaders using up to the 55gr (military) FMJ bullets and light and heavy bullets like the Hornady V Max.
It appears that the 40gr factory V Max load is underpowered.

The big problem is no one is making new 5.7x28 brass and fired factory brass is hard to find and expensive.

OpFlash
October 21, 2006, 11:44 AM
I don't know how you only got 2" of penetration out of 45ACP? I've shot wet phone books before and got way more than that, although I admit I don't remember exactly how much.

BTW hiya M2! (G26man)

wacki
October 21, 2006, 01:30 PM
Thanks for the info M2 Carbine. The problem with phone books is that they only measure penetration. If you look at gels some really big rifle rounds drill clean holes. Other small yet fast rounds cause big balloon like distortions in the gels. I can only assume that the ballooning would equal dead flesh. The gel I linked to in the OP is one such example. Am I correct with this line of thought?

shooter503
October 21, 2006, 01:55 PM
In the 1930's small caliber, high velocity, rifles became the rage in African hunting 'till a bunch of people got chewed up by animals that had not read the publicity. This caliber might work but it will be a few years until enough practical data emerges to trust your life on it. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Problem generally is getting the right bullet. If the bullet is tough enough to stay together on impact at close range it may not expand at all at longer ranges (less velocity at this point). Therefore it only makes a tiny hole and, perhaps, drills straight through. Opposite problem is that if the bullet is made soft enough to expand at longer ranges it breaks up if it hits anything tough like a heavy bone at close ranges.

The gelatin test may not be reliable because the gelatin is too homogenous to truly represent a combat target. On the other hand, regular humans may be more wimpy than african game.

thexrayboy
October 21, 2006, 11:07 PM
This would be another episode in the "right tool for the job" book. Each caliber has its pluses and minuses as does each type of bullet. The trick is to find the right combination for the situation you will be in. Easy to say tough to accomplish due to the many variables involved such as distance, angle, depth of critical anatomy, need to penetrate vs need to expand etc. etc.

Testing with Ballistic gelatin is not a perfect representation of how a round will perform but it is usually a fair indicator when compared to the performance of other rounds in similar testing conditions. It always helps to know what you will be facing so you can plan accordingly, however when faced with the many variables of real life I tend to look to history and see what performed well in the past. Until lots of historical data on the newer rounds is accumulated it's hard to compare them to the old tried and true rounds we have used for years. What works great in controlled settings does not always perform as predicted in the real world. The new 5.7 round is such a round. Lots of interesting potential but not enough real life data to make a solid decision.

OpFlash
October 21, 2006, 11:39 PM
The large balloon like wound area in the gelatin is what the FBI ballistics lab referrs to as a temporary cavity. Also sometimes called a stretch cavity, it is not given much credit as a factor in stopping power as tissue is not actually destroyed but only temporarally displaced, only to return to normal leaving only the narrow bullet track as actual crushed tissue. This is true for light and fast handgun rounds. Rifles are supposed to have permanant stretch cavities, or at least part of the cavity is permanantly damaged by the much larger energy from a true rifle caliber. The 5.7 having almost rifle like velocity (but not energy to match) may cause some permanant tissue damage as part of that cavity as well, but I can't say how much.

Justin
October 21, 2006, 11:51 PM
This would be more adequately discussed in the handgun forum.

And has been.

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