"Candidate proposes using textbooks as shields" CNN.com article


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MatthewVanitas
October 21, 2006, 10:39 AM
From www.cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/20/school.shootings.textbooks.ap/index.html

andidate proposes using textbooks as shields
POSTED: 10:10 a.m. EDT, October 20, 2006

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OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- A candidate for state superintendent of schools said Thursday he wants thick used textbooks placed under every student's desk so they can use them for self-defense during school shootings.

"People might think it's kind of weird, crazy," said Republican Bill Crozier of Union City, Oklahoma, a teacher and former Air Force security officer. "It is a practical thing; it's something you can do. It might be a way to deflect those bullets until police go there."

Crozier and a group of aides produced a 10-minute video Tuesday in which they shoot math, language and telephone books with a variety of weapons, including an AK-47 assault rifle and a 9mm pistol. The rifle bullet penetrated two books, including a calculus textbook, but the pistol bullet was stopped by a single book.

Crozier said the demonstration shows that a student could effectively use a textbook as protection in a school shooting.

An Oklahoma Highway Patrol spokesman was skeptical.

"He probably needs to take a look at some ballistics tests," Lt. Pete Norwood said. "There are some rifles not even Webster's Dictionary will stop."

Crozier said he got the idea after the April 1999 shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The idea gained momentum after a December 1999 school shooting in Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, when a 13-year-old boy wounded five fellow students. Crozier noted that a bullet lodged in books in one student's backpack.

"You don't know where they're going to happen. You don't know when they're going to happen. There ought to be some kind of plan to react to it," Crozier said.

Six girls and a principal were killed in a recent string of shootings in Colorado, Wisconsin and at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania.

Crozier faces incumbent Sandy Garrett, a Democrat, in the November 7 general election. A spokeswoman for Garrett's campaign, Kimberly Hawkins Sanders, said Garrett had no comment on Crozier's idea.

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TexasRifleman
October 21, 2006, 10:44 AM
People might think it's kind of weird, crazy,

Yes, actually..... they might. Wonder why? :banghead:

armoredman
October 21, 2006, 10:58 AM
There was a company producing bullet resistant backpacks and jackets for inner city kids some time ago. Wonder if those are still around? Could you simply buy a back panel IIIA or III, and put inside the backpack on the body side? Just a thought.

M2 Carbine
October 21, 2006, 11:08 AM
At least the guy is trying something, instead of supporting more anti gun laws and the highly successful "gun free zone" (AKA killing zone) around schools.

Lupinus
October 21, 2006, 11:15 AM
actually in theory so long as it is a hand gun round it should work, at the very least better then nothing. Agianst a rifle round anything more powerful then a 22lr and you will likely be screwed.

But it is better then half the crap they were telling us to do in my school after columbine.

Rembrandt
October 21, 2006, 11:42 AM
I remember as a youngster, a trip to the "woodshed" proved that a book inserted in the britches does provide protection.

ribbonstone
October 21, 2006, 11:46 AM
Politically more correct than "hide behind the fat kid".

Lupinus
October 21, 2006, 11:48 AM
nah ribbon the fat kid is less dense and therefor the bullet will pass through mroe easily.....stand behind the big meaty linebacker or wrestler :neener:

Mr White
October 21, 2006, 11:57 AM
Apparently liberal Dimocraps don't have the stupidity market cornered after all.

M2 Carbine
October 21, 2006, 11:58 AM
Better yet, the teacher, who has a carry license and moonlights as a firearms instructor at the local shooting range, pulls out his 45 Kimber and sends the shooter to hell where he belongs.

Arm (qualified) school personnel.
It's for the kids.:)

Combat-wombat
October 21, 2006, 12:02 PM
They could duct-tape trauma plates to the textbooks...

Euclidean
October 21, 2006, 12:05 PM
Better yet, the teacher, who has a carry license and moonlights as a firearms instructor at the local shooting range, pulls out his 45 Kimber and sends the shooter to hell where he belongs.

Arm (qualified) school personnel.
It's for the kids.

Well I'm only a customer at the local shooting range, and my .45 is a Springfield... close enough?

Shweboner
October 21, 2006, 12:42 PM
bullets aren't tennis balls, and we are not in the matrix....

How the hell is some bonehead 13 year old kid going to continuously deflect bullets with a textbook 'until police arrive'? Hell, how can anyone do it?

whats to stop the shooter from moving in closer and shooting them in the face?

Someone should give this guy a pile of books and send him down range while some idiot kid bump fires an AK at his face.... we'll see where his theory stands then.


Letting a CCW teacher come to class armed.... baaaaaaaaad

playing real-life game of Pong with books and bullets.... smart idea!

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 12:53 PM
Give the guy a break, he's trying to offer practical suggestions. I was thinking the idea was they'd turn the desk on it's side. But either way, the man is grasping reality where most others are stuck in denial. More people facing reality is a good thing.

BTW doesn't it take like 40 inches of books to stop intermediate rifle cartridges?

Lupinus
October 21, 2006, 01:18 PM
no it isnt perfect and untill the boneheads lift the no guns in school crap they have to figure the best they can do, its that or teachers risk their job and possibly their freedom to violate the rules.

Holding a book up as a shield when someone is bearing down on you with a handgun isn't first choice. Having to resort to a classroom full of kids throwing books and anything else in arms reach at an attacker isn't first choice, but it is an option.

Yes, the best option is to allow ccw anyplace anytime. Bit you know what? Sometimes the best option isn't an option for several and often stupid reasons. SO in the mean time untill said stupid rules can be removed you need to find ways that are better then nothing.

Take an average high school history book, use a little duct tape on the opening edge oposit the spine to simulate someone squeezing it, and fire a handgun at it. Hell do the same with a friggin phone book. A good thick book will stop many handgun rounds esspecialy if compressed a bit to make it more solid. And it doesn't need to be the matrix to cover yourself with a shield over vital areas while you move to a safer position.

Agian, it isn't the best option out there. But vcurrently it may be one of the bettr practicle options.

dasmi
October 21, 2006, 01:26 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31.htm
That link'll explain why this is a bad idea.

.38 Special
October 21, 2006, 01:29 PM
The typical American mother responds to the idea of armed teachers with a mix of incredulity, disgust, and outrage. Until that issue is addressed -- if that's even possible -- politicians will continue to come up with hare-brained ideas.

Lupinus
October 21, 2006, 01:42 PM
dasmi-
Try the same with a hardcover book compressed as if it were being squeezed

DRMMR02
October 21, 2006, 02:09 PM
The typical American mother responds to the idea of armed teachers with a mix of incredulity, disgust, and outrage. Until that issue is addressed -- if that's even possible -- politicians will continue to come up with hare-brained ideas

Great point. The first step is realizing that many of the people making the decions(like PTAs, activist groups, etc) are going to use emotions to make their decisions, not rational thought. Until a way is thought upi where we can counteract their emotional response, or at least get them out of the decision process, no progress will be made. Emotional moms are doing a lot more harm than good.

Grey54956
October 21, 2006, 02:31 PM
Gotta love the Box o' Truth. Seriously, one of the best sites out there...

Anyway, the idea of using books for shielding is lunacy at best. There really is no substitute for an active defense. When people attack, the best policy is to figth back with whatever is available. Being prepared just means that you pick a very good "whatever is available" beforehand.

Biker
October 21, 2006, 02:37 PM
The seminal concept is to *fight back*! If that means using a book as both body armor and a weapon, so be it. The alternative is to huddle in a corner and wait for the executioner.
The wolf is always surprised when the bunny bites his nose.
100 mice can take down a cat if they attack simultaneously.
*Drahka*...Fight.
This is the mindset that we need to instill in our kids and this mindset will serve them well throughout their lives in many settings.
Biker

sicario103
October 21, 2006, 02:46 PM
What is this an episode of Mcgiver? Should the kids glue rulers, pencil cases and erasers to make a crossbow to shoot at the BG?

The only way to minimize this from happening again is if they freaking open up their wallets and pockets and pour some money for security........

Teaching little kids to bum rush an armed assailant is just being irresponsible.
Arming teachers will never happens and neither will CCW for schools.

So, again where does this lead us? Money to biff up security..... but oh yeah they rather lay all responsabilities on our kids to ward off the attacker by blitzing him........

SDM
October 21, 2006, 02:46 PM
The rifle bullet penetrated two books, including a calculus textbook, but the pistol bullet was stopped by a single book.




Are calculus books made differently than say a physics book? I'm glad they took the time to get all the important details.

Grey54956
October 21, 2006, 03:04 PM
So, the answer is to pour more money into security for all of the thousands of schools across the U.S.? Great, more metal detectors and lockdown drills.

Security systems don't work against a determined attacked. They can simply walk through the metal detector, because they don't care. And controlled access to building doesn't work either, someone just has wait in the bushes until an unsuspecting student, teacher, janitor, or passerby walks on out, then they just slip right in.

I don't want a bunch of kids to have to rush a violent maniac, but given the choice of that, or having them shoot them all in the back of the head while "waiting to be rescued", I'd rather the former. A slim chance of survival and victory is better than a sure chance of death and defeat.

sicario103
October 21, 2006, 03:46 PM
Posted by Grey54956
Security systems don't work against a determined attacked. They can simply walk through the metal detector, because they don't care. And controlled access to building doesn't work either, someone just has wait in the bushes until an unsuspecting student, teacher, janitor, or passerby walks on out, then they just slip right in.
I don't want a bunch of kids to have to rush a violent maniac, but given the choice of that, or having them shoot them all in the back of the head while "waiting to be rescued",

But that's the thing, I think this is the most viable solution that we have at the moment. You keep only one or two accessible entry/exit points, metal detector and armed security officer.

Yeah, it will cost a crap load of cash but are there any other alternate effective and realistic solution?

KenRocks
October 21, 2006, 04:16 PM
lol @ SDM...Im so glad someone else caught that.

And then the line further down "There are some rifle rounds that even Webster's Dictionary couldnt stop!"


Calculus would stand a better chance, so long as you could prove dx/dt -> 0 as the round approached the cover :)

svtruth
October 21, 2006, 04:39 PM
must provide interesting training. Is this tactic in use at US airbases?

hnk45acp
October 21, 2006, 04:47 PM
Juniors school supply list:
notebook
pens
erasers
protractor
ruler
level 3 backpack
trauma plate
glue
markers

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 04:54 PM
Like Biker said, anyone in any way dealing with the reality that the situation is violent and combative, they get my support over all the others who have pie-in-the-sky ideas about how to make things more secure.

Like they said, determined attackers are guaranteed to attack, because they're determined! The phrase 'determined attacker' means that they WILL get past passive security measures. Armed security guards are better than locked doors, but it's not feasible to provide the numbers that would be needed to secure buildings the size of schools.

And as for minimizing the numbers of entrances/exits, that's silly. The most dangerous threat in urban societies is still fire, and it's damned irresponsible to sacrifice any level of fire safety for anything.

What's needed is more officials suggesting tactics and strategies like this text-book thing, until everyone and their cousin realizes that their kids need to know how to survive a violent situation, and act Pro-Actively. This text-book idea could be useful, you tell kids #1 run away from the school ASAP, don't wait for any official announcement, if something starts happening run away immediately. #2 If running puts you or someone you feel like protecting in worse danger, or is for any reason impractical, then attack or defend immediately. Do not try to reason or plead. #3 Use any tools you feel like. If that's a textbook or a tazer, use it.


It's like after 9/11, you had two types of people. Those who started talking about how to ban more items from airplanes, and those who were on TV telling people how to improvise weapons on airplanes by breaking their food trays and such.

ndh87
October 21, 2006, 05:28 PM
Oh you've got to be *(&*% KIDDING ME!!! :banghead:

I know from experience that a standard 9mm jacketed round from a glock 17 from about 30 feet will go through two phone books. The whole idea of stopping a bullet with a school text book is just the start of the problem too. This guy actually expects panicking mini-sheeple to use a text book as a body shield? they would do better to install kevlar doors and heavy locks.

WayneConrad
October 21, 2006, 05:31 PM
Well, it does give you something heavy to throw at your assailant. :D

sicario103
October 21, 2006, 05:34 PM
Posted by Lucky
#1 run away from the school ASAP, don't wait for any official announcement, if something starts happening run away immediately. #2 If running puts you or someone you feel like protecting in worse danger, or is for any reason impractical, then attack or defend immediately. Do not try to reason or plead. #3 Use any tools you feel like. If that's a textbook or a tazer, use it.

Yes, there must be a plan for retreat/escape but I think there must be some sort of adult supervision when possible. Now the part about attacking the BG is abit shady. What if the BG targetted first graders? Are they supposed to gang up together and Karate chop the bad guy like little fists of fury? It's not realistic and will most likely fail when the situation does arise. It's one thing to expect adults or more matured students to engage the BG but training kids to do this is plain foolish. Yes, new tatics and strategies in case of another incident is a must. But they must be realistic ones. The book as a shield is just plain ridiculous and will only fuel the anti's arsenal.

And as for minimizing the numbers of entrances/exits, that's silly. The most dangerous threat in urban societies is still fire, and it's damned irresponsible to sacrifice any level of fire safety for anything.

I did not mean barricade the doors so that no one could exit in case of emergency. I meant limit access to 1 or 2 doors for normal entry and exit with metal detectors and armed security.

Lucky
October 21, 2006, 05:59 PM
sicario103
What if the BG targetted first graders? Are they supposed to gang up together and Karate chop the bad guy like little fists of fury? It's not realistic and will most likely fail when the situation does arise.

Let me answer a question with a question:

Are they suppsed to line up against the black-board or allow themselves to be executed, bound, abudcted or all three? That's quite realistic and you can expect that plan to succeed.

But why would you want it to succeed? Sure, kids might not run fast or hit hard, but god damnit it beats lieing down. And for the record in my self-defence class there were little kids from elementary school, and they were taught practical things. Show me one normal man who is effective after you grab his balls, twist and squeeze.

And long before going there my mother made it perfectly crystal clear that you DON'T comply with adults trying to do you harm, you kick scream bite and run. She wasn't an 'official' though, it was just comon sense motherly advice by someone who put their kids' well-being above ALL ELSE.

I want to be polite and respect other people's opinions and beliefs, but what the *** is wrong with people that they'd advise kids to lie down and die or be abducted? Seriously that's just messed up, if people don't value kids more than that then for God's sake don't have them.

Euclidean
October 21, 2006, 06:45 PM
Arming teachers will never happens and neither will CCW for schools.

And why not? Because of attitudes like that maybe?

I'm working on it.

Doug14
October 21, 2006, 06:50 PM
To Lucky:

Thank you! I hope you have kids.

SoCalShooter
October 21, 2006, 06:55 PM
He is atleast trying to get people to defend themselves, perhaps he needs a little more guidence in doing so but I dont know of any textbooks that are gonna stop an ak round.

redneck2
October 21, 2006, 07:12 PM
they would do better to install kevlar doors and heavy locks.
This is the kind of ridiculous crap that ends up costing taxpayers millions of dollars and does absolutely no good.

I do a lot of business in schools. It's a BIG hassle to try to get into nearly any school anymore. In fact, I'm changing my business so I don't have to go into schools. Too much problem.

Schools defend against someone that's an outsider. Typically, shootings are from someone that's an insider.

LkWinnipesaukee
October 21, 2006, 11:29 PM
I shot through my old french book with a .22 pellet gun....

About 1.5" thick...


Just give teachers guns

twenty711
October 21, 2006, 11:41 PM
Armed security personel; the number of which determined by campus size, number of students, and location of the school (high crime area?)

Even based on my own criteria I doubt anyone would have put an armed guard in that one room Amish schoolhouse...

thexrayboy
October 21, 2006, 11:59 PM
My first impression was to quote the infamous rabbit.....what a maroon. However from the other perspective any reaction that is a proactive attempt at defense is better than simply cowering in a corner praying to be lucky.

I recall that briefcases armored with kevlar are available for people to carry and use as ballistic shields. Same concept really. I agree its a half assed solution but right now it's ahead of the typical socialist mentality of stick our heads in the sand and ban more guns.

longeyes
October 22, 2006, 12:20 PM
For years now the prevailing philosophy in the classroom has been to drain the students of any remnant of "barbarism," especially anything that might be associated with--egads!--masculine behavior. The entire cast of education today has been feminized. It is going to take quite a sea-change to turn that around.

We are more likely to see Dragonskin school uniforms than re-honoring spirited self-defense, much less outright aggression.

jerkyman45
October 22, 2006, 12:30 PM
Didn't they shoot at things alleged to stop bullets in Mythbusters? Suff like flasks, Zippos, wads of cash, and BOOKS. Anyone remember how the book one turned out?

Next on my school shopping list: Tactical Textbooks with Kevlar pages and ceramic plate hard covers.

mons meg
October 22, 2006, 12:34 PM
In other news, Sandy Garrett expects an easy re-election bid.

22-rimfire
October 22, 2006, 12:43 PM
The book thing, pretty ridiculous really. Like first graders are going to be able to defend themselves against an angry adult or older kid with weapons?? Anyone who would hurt young children have got to be warped. But, I believe the point is that children should be taught not to be sheep, try to recognize a dangerous situation, and do something to protect themselves. "Run Forrest Run!"

Zen21Tao
October 22, 2006, 01:18 PM
Don't get me wrong, I don't think this textbook idea is a problem solver but if the alternative is having nothing to obstruct the bullet or stop the shooter and no ability or place to run to then I think the textbook shield could be helpful. If it doesn't stop the bullet completely it does at least slows the bullet down. This may be enough to reduce some of the impact the bullet has when it hits. Again, this is only a "last resorts" king of thing. The first resort should be armed teachers.

WayneConrad
October 22, 2006, 01:41 PM
Assume Kevlar textooks that can stop BMG 50.

Still a dumb idea.

How big is a textbook?

How big is a kid?

Biker
October 22, 2006, 01:44 PM
How big is an idea? A mindset?

Biker

GEM
October 22, 2006, 04:10 PM
If you read the gun forums, you would be surprised how many 'gun' folk are against CCW for teachers in school. It makes me puke. :barf:

Only if they get extensive training - yeah, like the zombie commando hunter on the Internet is such a ninja.

Allow teachers who have permits to carry - best and easiest solution.

MarkDido
October 22, 2006, 05:06 PM
We need to issue all school children those bullet deflecting bracelets that Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter - sigh!) used to wear!

Strings
October 22, 2006, 05:48 PM
ok, I think i missed something here...

>but training kids to do this is plain foolish.<

Where in this proposal did anyone mention training kids to attack a shooter? Or do I need my super-secret-ninja decoder ring to catch that part?

.38 Special
October 22, 2006, 07:26 PM
Once I have my high school diploma which isnt far away because Im a junior but labeled as a sophomore only because Im behind in some credits but once i make them up i will be a junior or senior and then im done with this whole garbage and worries about school shootings and wearing a diaper over my head and hiding in the janitor's closet.
You just better hope English isn't on the exit exam. :p

hankdatank1362
October 22, 2006, 08:03 PM
HAHAHAHAHA!

Anyway, I highly doubt many teachers are interested in CCW. When I was in high school (just a few years ago) most teachers were liberal, little old ladies... the very definition of Sheeple. (Except for Coach Edge, wood shop teacher, wouldn't sprise me if he had a 12GA under his desk) The only realistic notion is to offer an ample amount of armed guards (Preferably younger than 80... our school had a guard so old he remembered when the 1911 was introduced :D ). Yeah it would cost a whole lot more, but it's worth every penny and probably the only effective and realistic answer.

sicario103
October 22, 2006, 10:33 PM
Posted by Lucky

Are they suppsed to line up against the black-board or allow themselves to be executed, bound, abudcted or all three? That's quite realistic and you can expect that plan to succeed.

But why would you want it to succeed? Sure, kids might not run fast or hit hard, but god damnit it beats lieing down. And for the record in my self-defence class there were little kids from elementary school, and they were taught practical things. Show me one normal man who is effective after you grab his balls, twist and squeeze.

I never said they should lie down and let themselves get killed or whatever. You need to read more carefully.

And for the record, taking a class in self-defense during gym class means crap. Most people that have been taking martial arts or what not for years cannot fight for ***, so imagine little kids facing an armed assailant. These are not realistic solutions.

but what the *** is wrong with people that they'd advise kids to lie down and die or be abducted? Seriously that's just messed up, if people don't value kids more than that then for God's sake don't have them

I'm not even gonna bother to dignify this retarded comment with a reply....

CalamityJane
October 23, 2006, 10:24 AM
I'm with Biker and Lucky on this; it may not be a great idea, it may not even be a good idea, but at least it is a start on a different mindset. Fight back, protect yourself---anything except sit there and wait. Our kids need to know that there is another way. That they can resist. They might still be hurt, or killed, but this passive mindset has to change.

If teachers and administrators won't change their mindset, then maybe the kids can.

miko
October 23, 2006, 01:51 PM
Someone should give this guy a pile of books and send him down range while some idiot kid bump fires an AK at his face.... we'll see where his theory stands then.
Hmm... You are saying you would rather face a bullet from AK without a pile of books than with it?


I know from experience that a standard 9mm jacketed round from a glock 17 from about 30 feet will go through two phone books. The whole idea of stopping a bullet with a school text book...
What's wrong with slowing it down? Still better than nothing.


Assume Kevlar textooks that can stop BMG 50.
Still a dumb idea.
How big is a textbook?
How big is a kid?
Hmm. The standard titanium(?) trauma plate on a police bullet-resistant west is what, 5x7 inches?


only realistic notion is to offer an ample amount of armed guards. Yeah it would cost a whole lot more, but it's worth every penny and probably the only effective and realistic answer.
There is nothing realistic about it.
There is not enough people capable of being effective armed guards who would work for a reasonable salary. What you will get is some bottom-of-the-barrel lscraps who will fill the personnel requirements but would not perform effectively - just like most of the public school teachers, for that matter.

miko

TimboKhan
October 23, 2006, 02:46 PM
I cannot support the "hide behind the fat kid" philosophy. I was the fat kid!

Look, this is a dumb, worthless idea. Bullets will blow through a textbook like nothing, and the only thing your going to end up with is a dead kid covered in confetti, and blood. That being said, at least his heart is in the right place, and thats more than can be said at the "Throw money at the problem" crowd. This is a difficult problem to solve, and I have yet to hear a reasonable, effective solution for it, outside of each school having a tactical response team trained and ready to roll at all times, which is never going to happen in a million years, for a million reasons.

Miko,

Butting into the conversation, I would say that I don't think it makes a bit of difference if you slow the bullet down. I don't know how much a textbook will slow a bullet down, but I do know, from having shot text books on occasion (what can I say, I hate math) that the bullet has ample energy to whack you after going through a textbook, especially considering that at most classroom ranges, the bullet is travelling at close to peak velocity. Getting shot by something travelling 2500fps is no different than getting shot by something travelling at 1000fps. Both leave you equally dead.

Prince Yamato
October 23, 2006, 07:28 PM
Since hardcover text books thick enough to stop a bullet are well over $100 in price. Expect an increase in your local school taxes. Having the teachers CCW is still cheaper... but God forbid you bring guns into schools... someone may get shot... like the badguys for a change!

Jeff Timm
October 23, 2006, 09:05 PM
In at least one recent incident, a teenager was inside the muzzle of the gun and could have disarmed or crippled IF THE YOUNG MAN KNEW HOW!

A 15lb book bag swung on the end of a two foot strap and the length of an arm can be a formidible weapon IF USED.

Geoff
Who thinks fighting back is the best idea. :mad:

mike101
October 24, 2006, 06:23 AM
A few months ago, I had the opportunity to fire a Ruger Mk II, loaded with CCI Stingers and Velocitors, at a wet phone book from about 10 feet. The bullets went clean through the phonebook, and I don't think they even slowed down that much. Now, imagine what a 9mm or .357 will do to the average text book. This sounds like a really dumb idea that is supposed to make parents and kids feel better. It's not going to stop any bullets, though.

You need guns to fight guns.

Kevlarman
October 26, 2006, 01:21 AM
There was a company producing bullet resistant backpacks and jackets for inner city kids some time ago. Wonder if those are still around? Could you simply buy a back panel IIIA or III, and put inside the backpack on the body side? Just a thought.

Way ahead of you.
I used to have a Second Chance level II Kevlar panel in my backpack. Maybe it would stop a bullet and give me a chance to run away? If anything, it rolled up quite nicely so that I could use it as a pillow in class. :neener:

coylh
October 26, 2006, 02:56 AM
WWHPD? What Would Harry Potter Do?

kannonfyre
October 26, 2006, 12:09 PM
based on my own tests, this idea may have some merit.

Round used: 110gr +P CCI Lawman .38 JHP
Velocity: 1050ft/s
Gun used: Model 67 S&W revolver with 4" barrel
Range to target: 25 meters
Target: 2 highschool year books taped together. They are hardcover yearbooks with about 95 sheets of paper as pages each. Each hardcover is 2mm of stiff cardboard for a total of 190 sheets of paper and 8mm of hardcover.

6 rounds later.....I find that

1 round missed. :mad: 5 rounds hit. All 5 rounds completely penetrated the first yearbook, penetrated the hardcover of the 2nd yearbook and drilled through about 40 sheets of paper before coming to a rest. However, the energy imparted by the rounds damaged the rest of the pages and created slight tears in the back hardcover of the 2nd book.

If I had been using the books as a ballistic plate, I would have been spared penetrating trauma. HOWEVER, the blunt trauma would surely HURT :uhoh: and may even fracture ribs.

Outlaws
October 26, 2006, 12:37 PM
No one is going to sit there and continuously deflect bullets until the police get there. But if a lot of people are running because idiot is shoot everywhere, it just might save you from a random headshot.

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