laid down the law at the range today


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atek3
October 21, 2006, 07:53 PM
so I shoot at a private club, I mainly practice ipsc in the bay with steel. My friend brought a highpoint 9mm carbine and we were banging away on the steel, cool right. Some guy rolls up with a tacticool LMT AR-15 w/ an eotech, tres cool right? Until he fires twice and smacks a pistol sihouette target...

Now mind you I'm a new member and I'm young, but if I don't lay down the law who will, right? So I go over and say, "is that steel rifle rated?"

"I don't know, probably"

"well lets go down and check it out, because if it is I'll be able to play with my FAL on this line"

So we walk the 50 yards to the steel and it's pretty pockmarked from other rifle using .....'s and sure enough two new M193 shaped indentations...

"Those are yours I do believe"

"oh well, guess I'll be shooting paper"

I helped him sight in his eotech, (it was about a 2 ft off at 50 yards).

and I take off.

I wonder if he immediately started banging away on the steel after I left...

atek3

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Pilgrim
October 21, 2006, 08:15 PM
At my club, if someone shoots at something he isn't supposed to shoot - there are signs explaining the rules - he is asked to leave and he soon becomes a former member.

Pilgrim

Hanzo581
October 21, 2006, 08:47 PM
yeah, thats the best way to get people to enjoy the sport of shooting, kick them out for shooting the wrong target. :rolleyes:

If they are not putting someones life at risk give the guy a break and explain to him what he is doing wrong and give him a chance to correct his mistakes

atek3
October 21, 2006, 08:49 PM
i'm thinking hanzo's more my style.

I invited the guy to a carbine match so he can learn to shoot his AR like it's meant to be shot.

atek3

Hanzo581
October 21, 2006, 08:52 PM
new shooters such as myself appreciate guys like you atek, I bet the guy learned his lesson and didnt shoot that target anymore.

hso
October 21, 2006, 09:48 PM
Guy makes a mistake and you help him out. Seems like the right thing to do to me.

Guy does the same thing a second time it's no mistake, help him to leave. Seems like the right thing to do.

You done good atek3.

JohnKSa
October 21, 2006, 10:25 PM
Handled well.

1911Tuner
October 21, 2006, 10:34 PM
At my range, the rules are clear. Get caught hittin' a club-owned steel target with a centerfire rifle, and your membership is history, unless you provide your own steel targets. Get caught by a club officer in the falling plate bay with a loaded centerfire rifle...whether he sees you hit one or not...same deal.

Why?

The steel is there for pistol shooters, and not rated for rifle rounds. It costs the club money and time to replace damaged targets, and when the plate shooters roll in for an awaited match...and find that their plates are full of holes or beaten into a concave shape...they tend to be a little irate. Priced any 5/8ths boiler plate cut to a specific size and shape lately? Multiply the cost of one plate times the dozens that will be shot all to Helen Gone if the slob shooters are given free reign...not to mention some of the shooters who drive for 2 or 3 hours to participate...and the rule starts to make more sense.
The welds break often enough from repeated hits with pistol rounds.

They do allow centerfire rifle for steel on the rifle range on a few conditions.
That the range is 100 yards or more...That the bullets are hard-cast lead...That the velocity is 2,000 fps or less...and that the bullet weight is 300 grains or less...and be prepared to have your ammo chronographed and/or pulled apart and the bullet weight checked on a scale. The only exception is to provide your own steel.

Simple rules to follow.

atek3
October 21, 2006, 10:36 PM
if this was a pristine plate I can see where you're coming from but the guy fired ding number 101 and 102...

atek3

antsi
October 21, 2006, 10:43 PM
It was diplomatic of you to ask if the guy knew whether it was OK to shoot the steel target, then suggest going to find out.

If the guy knew he was doing wrong, he's a jerk, but he could simply have been ignorant.

The way you handled the situation served to correct the behavior problem, but also let the guy save face.

Hanzo581
October 21, 2006, 10:47 PM
why not give the guy a chance to pay for the target he damaged instead of kicking him out?

Everyone talks about how they don't see as many younger people shooting as they should....maybe it is because of situations such as the one you described

donkee
October 22, 2006, 09:46 AM
At the club I belong to, we have steels with .223 sized holes through them, the barricades have been used for target stands, etc. The rules are laid down when you become a member. It's not like the rules are strict and unfair, just common sense. I like helping the new guy, but having a stupid guy running loose............

Cacique500
October 22, 2006, 09:58 AM
...and that's why I bring my own steel target to the range...

Other than walking it and the stand out to 200 yards, it's worked out pretty well.

1911Tuner
October 22, 2006, 10:09 AM
Hanzo asked:

>why not give the guy a chance to pay for the target he damaged instead of kicking him out?<
*************

Because new members are given a copy of the club rules, and must sign an agreement to abide by those rules before membership is approved...and because there are signs with 4-inch lettering clearly posted in every pistol bay, and on the rifle ranges...so it's not like they're unaware of it. Like a speed limit sign that puts the limit at 65. Get clocked at 85, and you get a pink slip.

AirForceShooter
October 22, 2006, 10:19 AM
I'm with Tuner on this one.
We need young shooters more than they need us.
We were all young, stupid and knew it all once. Try to remember how it felt the first time you had a gun in your hands at a range. You would shoot anything that stood still.
Cut him some slack.
Atek, you done good.

AFS

hso
October 22, 2006, 10:22 AM
I like the point about the area being posted.

I'll agree that if the area is clearly posted that there is no excuse and the offense becomes willful and warrants ejection. I would advise that requiring them to pay for a plate and a 30 day ban with a 90 day probationary return would serve better than having their membership revoked.

dfaugh
October 22, 2006, 10:28 AM
Guy makes a mistake and you help him out. Seems like the right thing to do to me.

Sounds like you did OK to me...You coulda got all up in his face, for disobeying the rules, but you helped him understand. We all have to understand that there are "rookies" out there, and teach safety as best we can. There's some real idiots that'll never learn (and probably should be booted off the range), but most have good intentions, and just need education.

Fred Fuller
October 22, 2006, 10:38 AM
Sounds as if it was handled just fine to me...

lpl/nc

1911Tuner
October 22, 2006, 10:43 AM
The club has had one revoked membership over the steel targets and he reapplied at the yearly membership sign-up meeting. He offered to reimburse
the club for the one target that he damaged, and after a vote of the entire membership, they gave him the benefit of the doubt...that being that he wasn't the one that had damaged several...they let him rejoin, with full initiation costs repeated.

It's not just about the costs incurred. It's as much about the targets being
missing or non-functional for a club activity that the targets were intended for. Sometimes, a damaged target isn't discovered for several days...and if they don't have a replacement on hand at the time...a particular stage has to be adjusted for the missing or damaged target. The falling plate machines lose a plate on average of once a week, and we try to keep quick-change replacements on hand...but sometimes they break faster than they can be replaced. The welder/repairman is a member. He works a full-time job...and he makes or repairs plates on his limited time with his own equipment. He gets free yearly dues for his work...a hundred bucks...and reimbursement for materials. We know that the plates are being hit with rifle fire. We just haven't caught the shooters...yet.

We've had the clubhouse and the line covers shot...Rule/Regulation signs shot...Gut piles on the range, even though the property is clearly posted for no hunting, which is a safety rule rather than an anti-hunting position. We just don't have a lot of patience left for shooters like that.

Bartholomew Roberts
October 22, 2006, 11:30 AM
Having belonged to a private range where I had to drive 45 minutes to find out some individual had worked over the LOCKED plate rack with a centerfire rifle at 20yds, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who can't follow the rules.

I think the key is whether it is an honest mistake or the damage was done deliberately. If it is an honest mistake, give them the chance to make it right by paying for the damage (though the target is still unusable for all the other club members while it is being repaired/replaced). If they have clearly been informed not to do it and they are doing it anyway, then they need to get the hook.

Will Fennell
October 22, 2006, 11:46 AM
Folks,
Different clubs, and different situations......hard to make comparisons between atek's club, and another senario in say, North Carolina.

atek, from the limited info that I can read here....you handeled things just fine. Better yet, the most important thing you did was invite him to the next match.

atek3
October 22, 2006, 11:52 AM
Better yet, the most important thing you did was invite him to the next match.

I know it sounds kind of silly but, the way I see things, if I see someone shell out 1,500 dollars on a single gun, I hope that they become VERY proficient with it. It pains me to see someone spend 1,500 dollars on a rilfe and then shoot beer cans with it once every few months. I'm thinking to myself, "Hey guy, how about I give you a 200 dollar SKS, and I'll take that useless AR off your hands." :)

I'm not being serious of course, but I think that people with fine arms enjoy them more when they are skillful with them. And IMHO, best way for a civilian to build skill is a bit of training and a lot of competition.

atek3

22-rimfire
October 22, 2006, 11:53 AM
Being young does not disqualify you from being right.

Zen21Tao
October 22, 2006, 12:07 PM
I had a problem at our range that I didn't handle as well as you. We all had paper targets up on wooden backdrops (2 long 2X4s with cardboard stapled between them) when along came a noob that walked down range stapling targets to the end of the target stands that people were using (his target stapled to a 2x4 and hanging 3/4 of the way off the target stand). When he came back I asked him if was dropped on his head as a child or just naturally retarded. He became all defensive whining that "its my first time here, I didn't know... (sob, sob)." Luckily it didn't come to blows and he went down and removed in ill placed targets. I wish I had handled it more diplomatic like you but I was shocked at this guys level of stupidity and arogance.

22-rimfire
October 22, 2006, 01:05 PM
Don't you just hate it when people intentionally put their targets in such a way that you shoot apart the stands.

possum
October 22, 2006, 02:43 PM
i just tak my own stell plates out at 100 and 200yds and me,my brother, and dad switch off hitting them with the ak's, m4's, and any thing else wewant to shoot through them they are ours and nobody has a problem with it, but heck as much as a membership cost there I think you should be allowed to do what ever the heck you want to do!

bthest86
October 22, 2006, 04:09 PM
I asked him if was dropped on his head as a child or just naturally retarded

The guy made a dumb mistake but I can't really blame him for acting defensive towards a comment like that.

I'm a person who doesn't like confrontation so whenever I see someone doing something wrong I explain it to them in a friendly "matter of fact" way and vice versa with those correcting me in a similar manner.

taliv
October 22, 2006, 04:58 PM
it does sound like you handled it well on the range. however, your description is appreciably shy of "laying down the law" :rolleyes:

BHPshooter
October 22, 2006, 08:06 PM
Atek3, I think you handled that in an exemplary manner. You seemed to be friendly and helpful while still looking out for the interests of the range and its other members. Inviting him to the carbine match was very kind of you! You get the RKBA Gold Star for the week. :) ;)

I wish I had handled it more diplomatic like you but I was shocked at this guys level of stupidity and arogance.

I think I would classify it more as ignorance and innocent thoughtlessness. Come on, be honest -- have you done anything that was less than perfect? Ever done anything that wasn't so smart? I sure have. What it boils down to is this: Everybody has their brain cramps... everybody does thoughtless stuff at times.

Just try to remember, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Next time you jump on somebody, you might permanently alienate him from the shooting community. :(

Wes

Owen
October 22, 2006, 08:38 PM
Possum,

You may not realize how much commercial steel targets cost.

A rack of 6 falling plates costs well over $1000. A pepper popper starts about $150 (and rifle rated pepper poppers are well above $300 IIRC). It is easy to understand why clubs are sensitive about what you shoot their steel with. The club I belong too will ban you for using any long gun on the plate rack. The thought process is that if someone sees you shooting with your lever action .22, they may decide that their lever action .308 is just fine too. Therefore, no long guns on the steel, at all.

I suspect your annual membership would pay for less than one steel target.

Any steel target with craters or holes poses a risk of bullets coming back to the shooter and other people on the firing line, or leaving the range. I hope your targets are in good shape.

atek, that's the way to do it.

Zen21Tao
October 22, 2006, 09:19 PM
I think I would classify it more as ignorance and innocent thoughtlessness. Come on, be honest -- have you done anything that was less than perfect? Ever done anything that wasn't so smart? I sure have. What it boils down to is this: Everybody has their brain cramps... everybody does thoughtless stuff at times.



You had to be there. The range had been cold and everyone was back from setting up their targets and was in the process of calling the range hot when this guy strutted in and right down the range without checking on whether or not it was hot. On the way down all targets stands were in use so he put up his targets up on the wooden stands holding the target stand (right next to other shooters properly placed targets) and came strutting back like he as master of the range. I asked him calmly what he was doing putting targets up like that and he said "well, all the targets were in use. I had to put them somewhere." This all struck me as arrogant and stupid. So I siad what I did. Yes, I should have handled it differently and in the future will. But every range noobs I have seen has been more considerate than this and stops to see if people are shooting before just strutting down range.

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