Oh boy, a close call today


May 17, 2003, 12:14 AM
Before I start, I must inform you that I live in the wonderful People's Republic of Canada, where self-defense carries a far harsher penalty than does actual commission of a crime. Not the best place to live, I know, but it's where my life is, until I move down south or Alberta finally cedes from this socialist hellhole.

I'm driving home from work at 9pm, and in the far right lane. Traffic is stopped, so I'm surrounded by cars on three sides, and a sidewalk on the other. Due to poor planning, my distance from the front car does not allow me the option of "escaping" onto the sidewalk. More on that later.

I glance into the rearview and passenger side mirror, and immediately go into Yellow alert; four young guys, looking very much like gangbangers and of the underpriviledged minority of the country, are walking down the street. I passed them earlier a minute ago and didn't give it much thought, but now they're looking at me.

The four, much to my alarm as they walk past my car, are indeed looking at me or my car, whatever their target. As the four reach the front passenger side outside my car, the predictably unthinkable happens.

They split up. One crosses in front of my car, one crosses behind, and two stay on the sidewalk.

I'm now surrounded on 4 corners, and boxed in on 3 sides by cars. Escape onto the sidewalk is not possible without some digital gymnastics, nevermind in my little import sedan.

I am inexplicably unarmed; my daily carry folder was left on the nightstand this morning, due to some unmentionable circumstance.

My 12 guage is in the trunk, unlocked but unloaded, as is legally permissible. The rear seat allows access to the trunk, though not without going through a clumsy fit of fidgeting with the release knobs, and nevermind the fact I'm strapped into the front seat.

The doors are locked, whatever consolation that is.

Before I can conclude my thoughts, something catches the group's attention, and all 4 are now running across traffic to the other side of the road, leaving me alone again. I suddenly downshift, realizing that I could have been in for a messy situation had something occurred.

Given the circumstances, what would you have done in this situation if things got hairy, if you had or didn't have your CCW on you? I'm still a bit edgy over the incident, but I'm glad nothing happened of it, and I'm almost certain I did nothing to provoke what happened or what would have happened, as I didn't even establish eye contact until my car was surrounded. Ready witnesses, were all around, but you can't always count on them to save your life.

I really wish I could legally defend myself in this country. I'll never again forget to grab my CRKT in the morning for the rest of my life, and hopefully someday, my P7.

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May 17, 2003, 01:32 AM
Geezuz, are you the same bokchoi on gunutz? Rule number one is don't look like a victim. You know how much excrement you would have been in if you even thought about it. In your vehicle, windows up, engine running? You're in the only Cdn legal defensive weapon. Let out the clutch. You silly thing. Geez!

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
May 17, 2003, 01:45 AM
Speedbumps? What speedbumps?



They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards. - General Creighton W. Abrams

May 17, 2003, 02:14 AM
Let out the clutch. You silly thing. Geez!

And go where?

Simple rules for driving in bad areas:

1) Try to slow, rather than stop, for lights, pedestrians, etc.

2) Never drive in the curb lane and certainly don't slow or stop in it.

3) When you must stop, leave about a car length ahead of you to effect evasive maneuvers.

4) Disregard 2 when it will place you in proximity to an immovable object limiting your mobility.

5) Have a gun or knife or pepper spray, or something to defend yourself with.

May 17, 2003, 02:35 AM
Geezuz, CZ-75, you too? Drive. Forward will do. If you're in a spot where you're scared, no cop will say squat. Drive! Geez!

May 17, 2003, 03:20 AM
As was said drive. I don't care if you only have 5' infront. IF they start trying to break in smash the car infront and behind if you have to.

May 17, 2003, 03:37 AM
I don't know about the dimensions of other peoples cars but generally if I can see the tires of the car in front of me I've got enough room to move.

May 17, 2003, 03:47 AM
Drive. Forward will do.


Into the car 2' in front of you? What's that going to accomplish? It only makes sense if you can pin an attacker, else you're potentially stranding yourself by damaging your vehicle. The radiator's up there, you know.

Perhaps you meant into the car next to him or behind him, or oncoming traffic. Oh wait! He's boxed in. If only he could move, he might actually gain one or two positions in line. That would get him out of harm's way. :rolleyes:

Prevention is way better than reaction.

May 17, 2003, 12:31 PM
I would have waited till they actually got on the offense. Why are they going to steal a car trapped in traffic?????

If they did try to do something and I was unarmed I would definetly smash the car in front and behind me. That gives you at least 2 more people who aren't going anywhere. There is a reason I pay insurance time to make them earn their keep.

May 17, 2003, 12:42 PM
Since I cant carry a firearm in my vehicle in Maryland, I keep an Asp (telescoping police baton) in the map pocket of my Blazer by my left shin. Its really easy to grab with my left hand, and a strike with that will make someone think twice, even if its not extended.
I moved it to the map pocket from the central consol after someone approached the passenger side of my truck and I (stupidly) lowered the window (I had just filled my gas tank, and he came out of the service station, so I thought something was wrong with my truck when he flagged me down). As soon as I hit the down button I realized that I would be in a very ackward position trying to open the center consol (lid is hinged on passenger's slide) if the guy were to put his hand on the lid and keep it closed (I'm 5'7" and not very strong at all, the guy was a good 6' and 300lbs). My CRKT was in my left front pocket and trapped under the seatbelt, so that wouldnt have been an option. I ended the conversation ASAP and moved the baton as soon as I got moving. The odd part of this was that I was on my way home from visiting my cousin in VA for a show-n-tell and minor gunsmithing adventure, so I had an AR15 and a 1911 behind me, but the mags were unloaded and thus useless.

I cant wait to get out of this socialist hellhole and throw an SKS and 1911 in my truck, 1 year to go.


May 17, 2003, 02:46 PM
In your vehicle, windows up, engine running? You're in the only Cdn legal defensive weapon. Let out the clutch. You silly thing. Geez!

Heheheh this reminds me of a talk me and my mom had about aggressive driving, road rage etc. She said that I would be basically screwed if someone larger than me got pissed off and tryed to harm me in a fit of road rage.

I asked her how I got of the car... she was confused for a second and asked why that matters, and I responded that Explorers had probably killed more people than ARs in addition to providing the means for a quick exit and that I would need a really good reason to abandon such an effective means of self defense or escape if I saw a large angry man coming to kick my @$$. :neener:

May 17, 2003, 02:52 PM
Never let yourself get boxed in. Leave a car length or two in front of you at a light so you can slam it if the SHTF. And if you are driving alone maybe you could push the front seat back(so it's like a bed). That way you can quickly reach the shotgun.

May 17, 2003, 07:08 PM
Accelerator, OCW, rescue flares, blades, boating foghorn-in-a-can, use your imagination. You're only unarmed if you're not thinking. Now tell us about due to some unmentionable circumstance

TFL Survivor

May 17, 2003, 08:23 PM
Are BFK's illegal to have in your car in Canada?
What about maybe a claw-hammer or a tomahawk?
Or an old E-tool. I don't think that even the most anal retentive Canadian cop could make a case against you for having a folding shovel in your car.
But you take that shovel and sharpen the edges on it, and you have one hell of a wicked up close and personal weapon.
I know that hand to hand isn't as good as Glock to hand, but I would rather die with my 20 oz. Estwing in their skull than just die.

May 17, 2003, 09:03 PM
In a repressed and over-regulated society such as Canada you must survive the attack by the bad guys and then your own government. Need a weapon that is not perceived as a weapon and is politically correct. I suggest a vinyl covered chain and medium sized lock, as in the type to secure your bike from theft. That shows that you ride a bike, being ecologically minded and correct, and are a responsible property owner. If you use a hammer, hatchet, folding shovel. etc. you had better have a bunch of other tools with it or they will percieve it as what it was meant to be, a weapon. In other words; if you have a baseball bat up front with you, you better have the ball and the glove too. What are your rules on pepperspray and like products?

May 17, 2003, 10:23 PM
Drive something BIG, your never boxed in. Sometimes there are just more "obstacles" than others :D

May 17, 2003, 11:07 PM
Lay on the horn, solid. Will at least disorient them (or maybe dissuade them if they're not yet committed to the attack), will get eyes looking your way, and may get the guy in front of you to move.

IF your car doesn't have an airbag, and the situation is desperate, you can push the car in front of you if you have half a car length or so to get a running start (per Kelly McCann, aka Jim Grover). Of course, if you're in an econobox and the car in front of you is a Crown Vic, forget it. (And don't try it if you have an airbag, because the last thing you need to settle your wits is a flash-bang in your face followed by a prizefighter's punch if you're close enough.)

May 17, 2003, 11:12 PM
I'd move.

May 17, 2003, 11:26 PM
I'd have gotten out of the car and said to one of them, "Excuse me, young man, could you spare some change?" They'd have run away from you so fast...

May 18, 2003, 11:59 AM
benEzra beat me to it, but yeah,lay on the horn . The punks don't want the attention and you may need the witnesses (one/some might actually help!?!)

Ball bat (w/glove & ball, of course) in car is also helpful to repel boarders, but raises no eyebrows with the constabulary, but first and foremost, learn from your 'mistake', make a plan. Stay safe.

May 18, 2003, 12:11 PM
Steering locks and 6D Maglites looks like they "belong" in a car don't they? :cool:

May 18, 2003, 05:08 PM
they don't call it "the club" for nothing you know...


May 18, 2003, 06:06 PM
A baseball bat underneath the seat could have helped...

El Rojo
May 18, 2003, 08:00 PM
I don't understand the ASP or baseball bat idea. You are in a vehicle with limited swinging space. Are you going to poke at them with it? I would imagine having to deploy an ASP or baseball bat would require you to leave the vehicle. That would be the last thing I want to do.

I keep some pepper spray in my little door map console thing. I also have a Glock 27 on my hip too. For this one, I would say leave more space next time. Make sure your doors are locked. If they are going to shoot you, you are pretty much screwed as it is. Even if you would have had more space, you had cars on both sides. You could have floored it, crashed through the cars in front of you, and then been in trouble for running through everyone because you saw some kids running around behind you. I just don't see that being a good idea.

May 18, 2003, 08:15 PM
El Rojo: With an Asp in close quarters, you can thrust with it in the non-extended state. That steel ball on the tip will hurt like hell when it impacts their forehead or other boney body part. If you're outside the vehicle (like when getting gas; I leave my door open so I can still reach the baton), you can extend the baton if you cant get in and drive off.


May 18, 2003, 08:19 PM
There's a reason I drive a bulletproof Chevy Suburban 2500 4x4 with a helluva push bar.:D

Chuck Perry
May 18, 2003, 09:48 PM
Tough call. I'd say most likely they were interested in your car or your cash. Do you drive a flashy ride? Assuming this were the case, are either worth your life? What is your liability in Canada for taking someone's life in defense of property other than your home? It sucks that this is a concern, but this is reality. I'd rather loose my ride and cash than my house and freedom for 10-15 years.
You could have tried any number of non-firearm weapons, less lethal devices or open hand tactics. However, they are four against your one. No room for mistakes. From the way they worked together to surround the car it sounds like they had a plan. This tells me they use their heads as well as their might. Tread warily. Assuming they are criminals, they probably don't abide by the same gun laws as you do. How do you apply a ballbat against an armed assailant? Given the situation and what you had on hand at the time, abandon the ride and gain the attention of the other drivers on the roadway. Did you have a cellphone? Surely someone stopped in traffic did. Make distance and call for help. Be observant and give the police dispatcher a good description on all your attackers.

Gordy Wesen
May 18, 2003, 11:28 PM
I think we all get caught "chicken walking" (as the cops call it). But we learn from it and don't let it happen again. I had a fellow ascribe something to me in traffic that I did not do. He jumped out of his car at the next red light came down, opened my door and grabbed me.! Do you think that will happen to me again? Just like you. Fat chance. I think sometimes God watches out for stupid people...once.:)

May 19, 2003, 01:38 AM
The fat end of a bat works well as a ram/punch from inside the vehicle. It is important to maintain a firm grip, but it beats the hell out of harsh language and empty hands. Pepper spray is a good thng, too, depending on the wind, but I don't know how well it plays in the Great White North!?!

May 20, 2003, 09:19 AM
If you're THAT boxed in in traffic ... where are THEY going to go even if you get out and hand them the keys?

Rule one: ALWAYS have a plan.
Rule two: Always adhere to rule one.


May 20, 2003, 12:32 PM
A good time to be able to demonstrate a secondary use of that steering wheel lock device known as "The Club"......
When I remove my "Club", I lock it in the smallest length it will go. As I found out, if you fail to do that, and take a 'Mighty Casey at The Bat' swing, the unlocked portion goes flying away....:what:

May 20, 2003, 12:37 PM
In the extreme event that something actually happened I would think lightly ramming the cars around you would gain you valuable witnesses and perhaps even assistance. Gets much more attention that the horn.

May 20, 2003, 01:03 PM
Pepper spray is a good thng, too, depending on the wind, but I don't know how well it plays in the Great White North!?!

Excellent idea. FOX, in addition to making, IMHO, the best pepper spray on the planet, also makes it in grenade form.

1. Remove cap.

2. Roll window down slightly.

3. Extend hand, with grenade, horizontally out the window.

4. Depress trigger and drop.

5. Quickly roll up window.

6. Watch the roaches scatter.

7. Drive home and have a nice dinner with your family.


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