Would you take a 2-3 year hiatus from gun ownership for a lot of money?


October 22, 2006, 11:57 AM
In 2008 I graduate from grad school, and most of the really lucrative job offers for the kinds of careers i'm thinking about would involve relocating to NYC, boston, london, dubai. hong kong, or shanghai. Don't get me wrong, I'm a through and through gun nut. But 3 years in a place like shanghai would basically give me the resume needed to live anywhere, and plus I'd make enough money to buy all the guns I'll need... for life.

Seems like a classic question of time preference... do I trade current enjoyment for a lot of future enjoyment...

Any recommendations? I hear BB IPSC is pretty big in HK and the UK, at least I could practice a lot, maybe shoot my guns when I come home on vacation?


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October 22, 2006, 12:03 PM
Well, what's your safety worth?

Rather, what's it worth to you to be able to secure your own safety and not have to rely on others?

October 22, 2006, 12:04 PM
But make sure you can pay the rent for a nice place.

A friend once made $12,000/yr in South Milwaukee. His rent was maybe $200.
He was offfered a job in Chicago at $20,000. He would have to pay $1000 rent/ mo for the same kind of place. A net loss and a harder job.

Look before you leap. When I lived in west Bradenton, FL, I shot very little for four years. But I carried so I always a friend.

Another friend lived in Janesville, Wi. He shot a lot and turned down a job in Boston. Mistake. In a downsize, his next job offer was in CA.

He is the guy I have mensioned as living in Los Banos (the toilet)

October 22, 2006, 12:04 PM
safety always weighs in my consideration, but for the purposes of this exercise, take safety out of the equation.


October 22, 2006, 12:05 PM

October 22, 2006, 12:07 PM
No, not for love nor for money! The problem is not face-value of not owning firearms. It's not being able to defend yourself. Having lived over-seas, I know fact-firm that foreigners are frequent targets for theft and violence. There are plenty of good-paying jobs where guns are allowed. Also, higher pay, higher tax, higher cost of living. In the end, I'll bet you break even or worse, come up shorter of funds. Re: the experience? Sure, great point. Again, it's available state-side in safe, gun-friendly areas.


October 22, 2006, 12:19 PM
the way I see the safety is like this. Suppose your company offered you 3,000 dollars a week to not wear your seat belt for 3 years when you were the driver. I don't know about you but I'd probably take it. Sure I'd adjust my behavior, fly more often, take taxis, get rides, buy a volvo, avoid driving in chaotic environments, but I think the same idea applies to guns. If I lived in a place with no guns, I'd go back to training martial arts, I'd carry whatever weapons were still legal, I'd avoid bad areas, etc. etc.
I mean, seriously, when was the last time you read about a young professional american getting fatally injured in a mugging in hong kong, shanghai, dubai, etc. ?


October 22, 2006, 12:22 PM
I would do it, particularly for the foreign living experience. Life is fragile and short - that's why I carry in the first place. It's also why I'll occasionally go outside of my comfort zone for the purposes of making the most of it.

October 22, 2006, 12:31 PM
If you truly think the monetary value of these positions (but it would need to be substantial) will outweigh the temporary loss of being armed, I'd do it. BUT, learn some martial arts, before and during.

I know this is a gun board, but I think too many people here rely on being armed for self-defense, and assume that these are the best/only options available. I don't know anywhere in the world (and I've been a few places) where they don't teach the martial arts.

October 22, 2006, 12:50 PM
Your primary weapon is between your ears. I have been un-armed for 26 years (my own fault) and I have lived and traveled many cities.Portland Or. Miami, Detriot Etc. It can be done.
BTW, I am 5,8' and 145lb. and no bad-a**. just stay smart.

October 22, 2006, 12:59 PM
Well, how are you any worse off than I am? I've a job where I am forbidden to carry and I live in Texas, a place regarded world wide as having great gun laws! And this isn't a guaranteed temporary thing for me, nor am I getting paid any sort of money to be subjected to these conditions.

Fight for your rights wherever you are, and do what you've got to do. Human dignity is in peril across the globe. It should not matter where you live or what you do as far as determining your civil rights, but the way of the world is that it does matter. We know this is of course evil, but fighting or creating evil is the crux of our existence. Maybe your experience can help us create more people in the world who will think about their natural rights as humans and begin to demand them.

October 22, 2006, 01:01 PM
In a heartbeat. If I were in your shoes, though, only for the opportunity to live and work overseas.

I've been out of high school for ten years, and I've spent....[thinking]...probably four of those years outside the U.S. The experience of travel is fundamental.

We gun people get a little worked up about this stuff, but the chances you'll die because you don't have a firearm in any given 2 or 3 year period are very low (unless you're doing something insane, and it doesn't sound like you are). We all take chances in life. Some of them are worth it. Some are not.

I wish I knew how to do links, but LawDog posted a wonderful entry on the combat mindset on his blog recently that applies.

Hey! Apparently I DO know how to do links!

October 22, 2006, 01:08 PM
We all die eventually, in the mean time, you have to live. I say go for it. If you step back and imagine your whole life, this opportunity could open doors that effect the quality of years of living. When you're on your death bed, I doubt you'll say "I should have watched more TV, and I should have bought more guns" -- but you might say, "I should have lived in Shanghai when I had the chance!"

When I moved to Oregon, there was a six month waiting period as I established residency before I could apply for a CCW. Should I not have moved here because I was forced to go unarmed for six months? I actually learned a lot during that time. Safety is 99% perspective.

Just my humble opinion.

Stainless Chili
October 22, 2006, 01:12 PM
Sure. Sell your stuff or plant a lock box / gun safe at a relatives house.

Enjoy the world. Return and buy the guns the want, and even a few that you need.

= = = = = = = = = = = = =

He is the guy I have mensioned as living in Los Banos (the toilet)

Ugg! I've passed through several times. LB is the terminus of a test drainage system for the San Joiquin Valley. It didn't work, though. The saline groundwater created a dead zone. To the East is Merced, where Stone's Gun Shop is having problems. Further to the east are the foothills of the sierra Nevada mountains.

October 22, 2006, 01:23 PM

If you look "white or black", you have a VERY GOOD chance of making A LOT OF MONEY in Asia.

Me, I look asian (that's because I am!!) and I speak fluent English. But I am at a great disadvantage, because even though I might be as skilled or more skilled, nobody here in Taiwan cares..

They want someone who "looks white". We have a bunch of Canadians here who were bums and squatters in Canada, but they live like kings here, because they look white.

It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of Racial discrimination that occurs not only in Taiwan, but in Hong Kong and China as well; against Chinese people.

If my wife teaches English, she gets paid about $10 an hour. If a guy that looks white teaches English, regardless of his English abilities; he will be paid $25 an hour or up.


"Saving money" in Asia is excellent, so long as you spend it in Asia.

My rent is $275 a month, my total expenses here in Taiwan per month is about $1000 for rent, utilities, food, and entertainment for both myself and my wife. Sounds great right? But understand, the average secretary here makes about $800 a month.

So it's "relative". Making money in the states and spending it here is great... Doesn't work that well the other way around.

any questions you want to ask, feel free to PM me.

If you decide to come to Taiwan, let me know, I can try to explain the lay of the land for you..

My feelings about Taiwan? But for the fact I have family, friends, and my wife here, I'd move out tomorrow. The people are horrible, and it's a bit like the old West, might makes right. Nobody cares about logic nor right from wrong. They ask two questions:

1) Who do you know? (Networking)
2) Can you kick my ass?

The person with the most to lose, loses here in Asia. Just FYI. The people here have no concept of hygiene, nor manners.


October 22, 2006, 01:26 PM
hey twoblink, tell us what you really think :)


October 22, 2006, 01:36 PM
Your education has taken a lot of time and money to create.

To some extent this oppurtunity would be a similar investment, you will learn all sorts of stuff and as mentioned it looks good on that resume thing.

I do want to know if you are thinking it will pay you all sorts of money while you are doing it, or are you saying it will let you make more money during the rest of your career?

If you are saying it pays more immediately I think a lot of that will be chewed up in living expenses, clothing expenses, food expenses, and all the other stuff that comes with travel and life far from home.

If you are saying it will help you be worth more long term, that I would agree with and that is the only reason I would even consider it.

I personally would stay in the USA just because I have traveled a little bit when I was younger and I figured out quickly I am more at home in the woods than in london or some other place.

But then again you have set your education to lead you to this fork in the road. So to me I figure you will always be wondering what would have happened if you turn this oppurtunity down.

I have a relative who went to new york for a summer internship between her junior and senior years of college. Big company, paid her a whole lot for that summer, she learned so much about life as well as what that sort of job is like that it was well worth it.

All the money she made was chewed up in living expenses, caring for clothes and knowing her, buying a few more "business" outfits. They paid her enough she was not homeless, but they did not pay her enough that she was living the easy life.

Basically that summer taught her she won't be one of the cut throats in new york making the big money and spending the big money.

But it looks good on that resume thing, it is something she will never wonder about in the future, and she feels it was well worth it to see that part of the world and how some of the really really big companies do things.

Guns are not everything as others have said. But money is also not everything.

October 22, 2006, 01:43 PM
I'd do it, besides out of everybody who says "don't" how many do you think actually carry nearly 24/7? Maybe they do, this is THR...I'd love to but my civilian jobs didn't allow it and car break ins are common. That means 5 days per week I'm not armed to, from or at work. Probably the same for many folks in states with great gun laws...like mine.

Two years is nothing, it will go by quick and be a great experience. If you have good common sense and awareness, you'll be fine. In Iraq I had plenty of guns, grenades...but who cares? The primary threat was a car bomb...can't shoot that from inside an armored sedan. We stayed alive by thinking and avoiding trouble (and some luck) and never fired a shot. Singapore is the one big city (actually more a city-state;) ) I've been in that I would feel perfectly safe without any firearms. Can you get a job there? Not that I wouldn't want firearms...just there crime would really fall off the list of reasons. Terrorism perhaps, I know Al Queda has cased the place, seen the surveillance footage.:uhoh:

October 22, 2006, 01:50 PM
Contrary to the idea one can get from reading these forums too much, there's way more to life than guns. Plenty of people survive just fine without 'em.

It sounds like this would be a prudent decision to make, and it's better to look at the bigger picture. Do whatever you feel will enhance your life the most.

October 22, 2006, 02:12 PM
1) Who do you know? (Networking)
2) Can you kick my ass?Two good questions to ask anyone you meet, no matter where you live :cool: .

October 22, 2006, 03:21 PM
No life is to short and I learned a long time ago MOney is not the best thing, enjoying life is.

Eightball, love your sig Thanks!!:D

October 22, 2006, 03:29 PM
When I was a lot younger, there would have been a lot of things I would have done and put up with to get a "bunch" of money.

Now that I am a bit older, I would not be near as willing to do something just because of the money I "might" make.

I am old enough to realize that life is very short, and that we get one trip around in this world.

I am a lot less likely to spend time doing things that I don't like or care to do, but that would make me some money, than I am to spend time doing things that I love to do, being with people I love to be with, doing things that I am interested in doing.

If you want and desire to go live overseas and experience a new culture, and think it would be fun, do it.

However, if you are going to do this ONLY for the money that you might wind up making, then I'd say going over there will only become something you will regret, as you will not be able to get the time back.


October 22, 2006, 03:30 PM
I have, went to England for 5 years and basically could only have a shotgun.

I'd be careful about the money also, I do a lot of business in KL, Shanghai, London etc. and those places are not cheap to maintain any decent lifestyle. As far as NY, my oldest daughter finished grad. school and moved there, 490 Sq. Ft. apartment is $1850 per month in Soho.

And very few people actually save much money, there is just so much to see and do that you wind up spending it. My wife loved to catch the weekend trips to Amsterdam, on 199 GBP for a weekend with room, but going to the diamond cutting district sure was expensive.

October 22, 2006, 03:48 PM
Eightball, love your sig Thanks!!NP, man. I also love my sig, thanks for the line :D .

October 22, 2006, 04:04 PM
NYC, boston, london, dubai. hong kong, or shanghai.

NYC, Boston - Maybe if the money is right.

London - Oh, yes, yes. Gun laws are idiotic, but London rocks.

Dubai - My wife went there on a six month assignment, lasted three weeks and got the heck out of there. Might be better for a man, but I wouldn't go there unless the money was outrageous. Probably dangerous for a non-Muslim.

Hong Kong or Shanghai - Sounds like it might be a cool experience.

I consider the limited foreign travel I've done (Russia, England, South Africa) to be some of the richest and memorable experiences of my life. I'd be very tempted if offered a good job in such interesting places.

October 22, 2006, 04:53 PM
Atek3, it sounds like you are not married or have children. If that is the case, go overseas and work and enjoy the experience while you have the freedom to do it. Also, if it is a good career move do it. You will need a good career that payes well when you do have a wife and kids to support.

I went overseas to work and made a lot more than I would in the U.S. I had no cost of living or taxes and saved more money in 3 years than I did in 10 years of working in the U.S. I also ended up meeting my future wife in Asia and now we have a 5 year old daughter who already has her college tuition more than payed for.

The experience is far more interesting than the 9 to 5, rush hour traffic, work like a slave to pay the bill and tax collector jobs. A lot of the expatriates you meet are also more interesting people and have experiences that others only read about or see on TV.

Ohen Cepel
October 22, 2006, 04:57 PM
It sucked when I was stationed overseas not being able to pursue my hobby. However, it's a small sacrifice. I would do it if I were you.

Keep in mind though that some places you will have more freedom than others. Research it and keep that in mind if the money and the location are similar. Even being able to shoot an air pistol at a local league is better than nothing.

October 22, 2006, 05:00 PM
In my opinion it would be kind of silly to ruin your entire professional career and lessen the quality of the rest of my entire life over a couple of years in a non-gun friedlt location. I think I would weight the odds of anything happening to me and take the chances.

October 22, 2006, 05:08 PM
I may actually be faced with this dilemma. I'm applying for a job in France for next year, which means that for 6 months to a year, I'd be separated from my firearms.

The prospect of leaving my firearms in storage does not appeal to me. The prospect of having an adventure on the French government's dime does appeal to me.

I am not thrilled about this conflict of interests... but I can stand to leave my guns in good hands in exchange for a life-changing experience. In fact, the one thing that would irk me the most is the idea that my guns would go used during that time - they've given me too much enjoyment to let them lay dormant. :)

By the by, if anyone has any information on how someone might be able to bring a firearm onto French soil legally, I'm all ears.

October 22, 2006, 05:14 PM
Several year hiatus (btw, nice word choice) for the opportunity to earn a lot more money. Sounds like college.

The Real Wyatt
October 22, 2006, 07:13 PM
Live each day to the utmost.
To live today for a promise several years down the road, nah ... not for me.

October 22, 2006, 09:23 PM
I personally would not allow my residence to be off of U.S.A. soil, thats just me, regardless of gun ownership status, its just not going to happen.

So, that leaves me NYC and Boston. I dont want any "more" city than I already have in the Dallas area, so I just dont see myself in those cities either...again, regardless of gun ownership status. I have enough traffic and hustle/bustle in my daily life as it is.

Thankfully, my job is lucrative enough and the great news is that its right here in Texas, where I carry my guns everyday!

October 22, 2006, 09:33 PM
I lived in NYC after college for almost 3 years. 6 months ago I fell head over heals with guns! Month ago I moved to Fort Lauderdale, FL. IN a big part because of my passion for guns.

As far as job goes, I thought the same thing. NYC seamed like the only place to work for me. I've been working there for a data conversion / litigation support company as software developper, then I moved onto downtown next to Wall St. doing financial software development for another company.

I don't know what you're into. But if it's IT / computers / programming, then www.dice.com does wonders! I KID YOU NOT. I found 2 jobs like this. 10 Months ago I got fedup with my first job, so I posted my resume there. 2 months later I was working on Wall ST. Then I wanted guns, lots of guns :) , so I posted again. Now I'm in Fort Lauderdale working as a software developper for a very large software company. Miami I hear has a lot of jobs to in IT department.

If you need contact, I have # to some good head hunters here in Florida, one of them found me the job I have right now, private message me if you need help finding a job in IT. And I love it. I got 2 guns in last 3 weeks. I got CCW permit in 6 weeks. And I'm at the range every other day... which takes care of my paycheck :D

As a final thought... I did enjoy NYC for a while. Until I understood that there are more important things in live than making a ton on $$$. There are guns! And as far as pay goes, I did took a cut moving down here. But, it was 5K, any my state/city taxes in NYC were around 8K. Do the math :)

P.S. It's never 2 - 3 years. Things happen. You might get married in the mean time. Whatever. Find what makes you happy, and do it. 2-3 years is after all, 3% - 4% OF YOUR LIFE !!! No money will pay for that. But that's just my take on it.

October 22, 2006, 09:50 PM
Yes. Absolutely yes. Guns are just a very small part of life in my opinion. Rights on the other hand, are a major part of life. Being more financially stable and being an affluent member of any given community will put you in a better position to defend and promote rights such as gun ownership. Thus, by making yourself stronger, you also make your political clout stronger, even if it means sacrificing those rights in the short run. Rights/seriousness aside, it will be great to see the world once you get out of that crappy little school in Hanover ;) After I graduate from grad skool I'm planning on moving to one of the places you mentioned or the Bay Area.

October 22, 2006, 09:53 PM
If the long term benefits are worth the short term risk of not being able to be armed and you get to experience a far away land and culture, go for it!

Besides, you are more likely to be harmed on you motorcycle than by violence and perhaps less so now that you dont live in California anymore.


October 23, 2006, 02:24 AM
Have fun, send us a postcard. ;)

October 23, 2006, 04:00 PM
I wouldn't do it. My freedoms are more important to me. Earth isn't going to veer off course and collide with the sun because I didn't jump on the opportunity.

October 23, 2006, 04:11 PM
No. But that's just me. YMMV.

October 23, 2006, 04:30 PM
its a no brainer. Get your passport ready, and take off. I don't understand your hesititation.

Rich K
October 23, 2006, 09:30 PM

October 23, 2006, 09:49 PM
I say go.....guns are not the only important thing in life.It may be a passion like all of us here but in the end the experience both in travel and bettering yourself will be more rewarding.Then come back and build your collection even bigger.Money might not bring happiness but it certainly brings security.

Trust me,being in financial hardtimes is not "fun".Im doing the opposite of you soon.Selling the house,quit working for a couple months,after years of go to work come home do it again.... and travel with some of my equity.Start over in a new place with a better financial situation where I will be able to add on to my collection.I could buy more guns instead of travel but its a big world to see!For me,seeing things,experiencing things is valuable in life.

I still remember my english teacher in school say...if you can,travel while you are still young,you'll enjoy it more.

but...if it were France,well maybe not! lol!

October 23, 2006, 09:56 PM
Why give up ownership? A firearm stores rather well for many decades if treated properly for the storage.

October 23, 2006, 10:45 PM
Funny how 3 years turns into 6, turns into 10...and HK (took me a few minutes to think of Hong Kong & not Heckler & Koch! :D ) turns into Dubai turns into Shanghai next thing you know, you've got roots down somewhere you didn't plan on and you have comp'd beliefs.

October 23, 2006, 10:55 PM
My recommendation is to go where you can make the most money intitally. I am in an MBA program and am hearing day in and day out that the salary you start at will "set the stage" for your future salary. It established the basline from which all future salary negotiations begin. Consider a few years in gun exile as an investment in a future arsenal.

October 23, 2006, 10:58 PM
Do it! It is worth it!

Panthera Tigris
October 23, 2006, 11:24 PM
I might, but in today's world there's no way I'd move anywhere overseas being an American. More unsafe than anyplace here.

October 24, 2006, 01:01 AM
In the U.S. I would consider the ramifications of illicit behaviour and weigh that against my personal safety.

For London, I would take the chance if I was single. Dubai, not so much, but it is certainly worth a visit. HK gets on my nerves, but there is enough anglo-centric culture left over from British rule that you can get by. Shanghai, I don't know about.

I say go for London, so you can go for a ride and stop at the famous ACE cafe. You owe it to yourself as a rider;)

October 24, 2006, 07:10 AM
I'm doing that right now. It sucks sometimes.

However, never love anything that can't love you back. Someone gave me that advice long ago and I am getting to understand how true it is. Make guns serve you, not the other way around.

Also - continue your hobby in other ways. You can still continue to grow as a shooter through education on the 'net or through books. Bring a copy of "Hatcher's Notebook" with you to memorize...so long as you don't get in trouble for having books like that. So many nations are much more advanced in terms of the fascist collectivist agenda.

Bottom line: You will come back to the US with a new found appreciation for America.

October 24, 2006, 08:21 AM
I think you should give very serious consideration to this opportunity. It is probably the one time in your life you will get it.

Some negatives about any place overseas.

- medical care ranges from mediocre to downright dangerous
- some places are relatively safe, others are quite dangerous, and the pendulum can swing very fast
- probably less appropriate for couples with very young children, but not impossible. babies will not appreciate the experience like a ten year old might, and it is very hard to be away from family and friends if one has rug rats to take care of
- the cost of living varies widely. some places are near prohibitive cost wise for a decent place (HK comes to mind), while others are more affordable. the pay difference may reflect the cost of living if there is not a decent allowance for living expenses.
- you will in all likelihood end up in an apartment. if you are used to a house with a nice yard, you may not like the accommodations no matter what.
- it is very hard for some people to not be around their family and long time friends. it is entirely possible that when you get back you won't be able to reconnect with the friends you had before you left.

Some positives.

- the money can be real good.
- the experience can be one heck of a door opener on a resume.
- the opportunities for personal growth might make it worthwhile even if the money was not so good.
- learning a foreign language can only help your caeer, no matter what it is.

October 24, 2006, 09:20 AM
It is worth mentioning that if you get a job in Boston you can always live in a nearby town where it is much easier to get a License to Carry. I lived in Beverly and worked in Boston for a few years and it was a good compromise. Unfortunately the commute home was usually double the commute in. If I was choosing towns based solely on the ease of an LTC and the commute to Boston I would choose Woburn.

As far as overseas is concerned, I say do it because I would. My best friend and his wife spent a year in Japan teaching English and they speak highly of the experience. They also surprised a burglar ransacking their flat, which could have been much worse if the burglar wasn't twice as terrified of my friend (6'4" white dude) as he was of the burglar. As it was the guy just ran out, and knowing full well how a cornered animal can act, my friend let him go.

The program they used (it was either JET or NOVA, I can't recall) ended up earning them a lot of money, so the profit margin must have been pretty good.

Eleven Mike
October 24, 2006, 09:27 AM
So long as I'm living under fairly safe conditions at the time, I certainly would.

October 24, 2006, 10:29 PM
Working on the assumption that all of your other needs will be taken care of, I would say do it. Many have mentioned the money, and money is useful, yes. But my guess is this is an opportunity to put your studies to work, doing something that you'll enjoy. For a chance to work overseas, hell yes!

If it's Boston or NYC, well, the outlying communities aren't necessarily as strict as the City itself. And whatever our feelings about those Anti-2A places, they are world-class cities; you'll be exposed to more ideas and concepts than just about anywhere. You might learn something.


October 25, 2006, 11:20 PM
If I took a three year hiatus from gun ownership I would have a lot of money. Heck, even if I only took a three year hiatus from any further gun ownership that would help quite a bit.

October 25, 2006, 11:52 PM
Not to get personal, but how much money difference are you talking about? $80,000 vs. $200K? $100K vs $150K? $400K vs $800K?

I am in a similar position. I have another 1.5 years (out of 15 total) left of my training and when I get out my salary will go from $40K that I make now to $300K+ if I stay where I (and more importantly, my wife) want to live. If I am willing to move to some less desireable places (for my family) then I could start at $800K. If I was willing to move to Dubai, I could start at $1.5M+. That is a lot more money, but for me it is probably more than I can spend or need for retirement savings. What is it worth to have my kids grow up with their grandparents down the street?

You have to decide what your financial goals in life are and how much money you need to support them. If you can make enough to live the lifestyle you want in a place you want then do that. If you cannot, then you have to decide whether it is better for you to reconsider what kind of lifestyle you want to live vs. toughing it out living someplace you don't want to (hopefully temporarily).

I haven't 100% decided yet (it is awfully hard to leave a half million or more bucks a year on the table), but I am leaning towards staying right here in Texas so my kids can grow up as 6th generation Texans. If I were single my answer may very well be different.

If it was the $80K vs $200K I would definitely have to reconsider though. $400K vs $800K is a lot more money difference, but I think I can do everything I want on $400K.

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