CCW SHOT SHELL?


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IN>IL
October 22, 2006, 03:54 PM
Admittedly, being that I spent the first 28 and a half years of my life in Illinois, I am rather new to the whole concealed carry scene. In fact, I've only had my Indiana Permit for about 4 months now, which isn't nearly enough time to learn everything about CCW.

Today I was at a local gun shop here in Terre Haute and the subject of CCW came up (imagine that?). There were three of us in the shop, me, the man behind the counter and this self-proclaimed "expert", who really kind of gave me the creaps. He told me that he carries concealed and then showed me that he reserves the first two shots in his weapon for CCI Shot Shell, followed by some gold dots.

He told me that the shot shell will keep you from lawsuits because it's kind of like giving the bad guy a warning shot. Now, when I went through my two CCW classes, I was told there was no such thing as a warning shot. However, my skeptism was yeilded when the man behind the counter agreed with him!

I am pretty sure this guy is full of dog poop, but I want to run it past ya'll here just to make sure... by the way, I have my weapon filled with the real deal, no shot shell here!

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Third_Rail
October 22, 2006, 03:57 PM
Your gut feeling is correct about it being BS. Good thing your BS detector is working well!

MachIVshooter
October 22, 2006, 04:09 PM
He told me that he carries concealed and then showed me that he reserves the first two shots in his weapon for CCI Shot Shell, followed by some gold dots.

If his weapon is an autoloader, than he is more than just an idiot, as shotshell cartridges will not cycle the action properly.

If it is a revolver, than he's just a simple idiot.

Shotshells for defense are only acceptable in a SHOTGUN.

Will Fennell
October 22, 2006, 04:14 PM
This gunstore commando is not only an idiot, but unfortunately spreading BS to all that will listen.

MachIV,
While I'm certainly NOT encouraging CCI shotshells for sefldefense, I've actually had VERY good luck with the .45acp CCI sshotshells functioning and patterning well in my various .45's[1911's and XD45 Tactical].

IN>IL
October 22, 2006, 04:32 PM
He was carrying a Taurus Millenium Pro .40!

heypete
October 22, 2006, 04:53 PM
The Box O' Truth did an experiment on this called "Snakeloads O' Truth".

See http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot30.htm for more details.

Conclusion: Near-useless against humans, very effective against snakes.

Azrael256
October 22, 2006, 07:23 PM
Effective, nothin'! Anti-snake weapons start with polearms, continue into flamethrowers, include ICBMs, and stop at space launched mass drivers. I had a bad experience that involved a water moccasin, six rounds of snakeshot, forty-ish holes in his little body, and dad finally doing him in with a chainsaw.

Dust off and nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And yeah, snakeshot for self-defense is roughly #5 on the list of the 1001 dumbest firearm-related ideas in the world.

orionengnr
October 22, 2006, 07:27 PM
Hmmm...

Ask him why he doesn't carry the first two blanks.

Then ask him if he's ever heard of Darwin :rolleyes:

Hardtarget
October 22, 2006, 09:04 PM
I carry a .22/6" revolver if I'm going into a "snakey" area. Any snake more than 4' from me is safe. If he isn't poisonous he can crawl across my foot.
I tried the CCI shotshells when I first saw them. Into a piece of paper, from about 6', I got 165 holes in a circle that was basketball size. I've only shot two snakes...very dead, one shot each.
There is NO WAY I would ever think of them for self defense. No way.
Mark.

Hanzo581
October 22, 2006, 09:14 PM
Hey I noticed you said you shoot shotshells in your XD45 tactical, I have a question, when I went to my local gun store to buy some for my new XD45 service the guy for some strange reason asked me if I was shooting it out of the new XD45, I said actually yeah, he then said Springfield highly recommends not doing that....I walked away a little perplexed....anyone ever hear this?

wolfman01
October 22, 2006, 10:16 PM
The only warning I'm interested in giving a BG regarding their imminent and serious change in their health, is the time it takes for me to draw my weapon. IMO, it sounds like a good way to end up dead yourself.

carterbeauford
October 22, 2006, 10:21 PM
Today I was at a local gun shop

That's all you needed to say! Self-proclaimed firearms expert is kinda like self-proclaimed special ops. The real ones don't tell you they're one of the real ones.

Taurus makes a .410 revolver, but that is only good for blinding someone at extremely close range.

akulahawk
October 22, 2006, 10:38 PM
They're only useful against humans if you want them to die in 2 or 3 weeks from an infection. That is assuming the human you just shot didn't get antibiotics or seek any other medical care.

About the most good they'll do is blind them (if they're not wearing glasses) and scare them with a bang noise.

Besides, if you're going to shoot them, make sure it is a full-on defensive load and not something about as worthless as a blank. No warning shots. Many verbal warnings, OK. Do NOT fire warning shots.

Jim Watson
October 22, 2006, 10:45 PM
I am not a lawyer but I have read that shooting to maim, as with pistol shotshells, is less legally defensable than shooting to "stop" with, say, a hollowpoint or three. Either you fear for your life, or you don't.

FrogClan
October 22, 2006, 11:00 PM
Shot shells will cycle an autoloader properly. I've used them in a Kimber 1911 (.45) a Colt 1911 (.45) and a Glock 19 (9mm). No problems. Your experience may vary and it is always wise to test fire any cartridge you intend to rely on when the chips are down.

When not in town, I keep my sidearm loaded so the first two rounds are shot shells. My threat analysis for my location, etc, etc, says the most likely "take action right now" threat is a rattlesnake. Shot shells in .38, 9mm, and .45 will kill a snake pretty darn quick (other calibers may also, but I have no first hand experience with them). The .45s just about take the heads off.

I would never use a shot shell as defense against anything bigger than a snake. For that reason, the remaining cartridges are GDHP, and when in town I replace those shot shells with GDHP.

ndh87
October 23, 2006, 11:54 AM
Shotshells for defense are only acceptable in a SHOTGUN.

and that only counts at or very close to contact distance...or for self defense against squirrels, birds, etc.

romma
October 23, 2006, 12:16 PM
will keep you protected from lawsuits. But that may depend on what State you live in and how Their laws are written among other things.

OpFlash
October 23, 2006, 12:43 PM
I too had thought of this and I do believe a shotshell to the face would be much more effective than pepper spray (blinded, broken teeth, etc.) without having to take a life, but I've learned the legal aspect is not good. By using a firearm you have employed deadly force in the eyes of the law, if you only use deadly force "partially" as in something like a shotshell, that means you weren't totally convinced deadly force was necessary and therefore you shouldn't have fired at all.

weregunner
October 23, 2006, 12:45 PM
Shot shells are a bad idea for defense against two legged varmints. Warning shots can get you in trouble with the law. Many police agencies are getting away from the warning shot due to liability and safety reasons. If the shot goes off with the snakeshot then you have fired a round and the local authorities may figure in their own way that firing was not needed since you were not in fear for your life. Otherwise you would have a bullet first up in the chamber. Discharging a weapon for a no good reason is a chargeable offense and the CCW gets revoked. You can get jail time and fined. Then there may be local or state laws against warning shots of any kind. Letting loose a round not meant for a solid target that is on the attack is discharging for no reason. The bullet could come down anywhere. Bullet could ricochet. Bullet strikes object not intended to be hit or person. All these circumstances can lead to death or grave bodily harm. Negligence is a felony folks. Liability for unintended consequences raises its ugly head. Civil suite will follow. Now days there are state and federal charges that can be brought to bear for the same crime without it being double jeopardy. Don't be a jailhouse lawyer and quote me law. Unless you are a criminal lawyer one does not have the right to tell chapter and verse what the laws state. Laymen may not know or interpret the law the right way. There is also the case in the NRA Armed Citizen where a husband emptied his wifes snub revolver with ratshot into the perp and it had no effect. He then shot the perp with his own revolver and ended the attack. So dowhat you will. Everything posted here has been documented in legal as well as gun magazines and books by real qualified authorities. So, do what you will. You may get to be an example in writing what not to do in the media as you sit in jail.

bouis
October 23, 2006, 12:50 PM
Heheheh. This reminds me of how the famous explorer Captain Cook was killed. He shot a Hawaiian warrior with a shotshell pistol. When the smoke cleared and everyone realized the warrior wasn't dead, they charged, and all the real bullets in the world couldn't stop them. Cook ended up getting eaten. Learn from history's mistakes ;)

bubbygator
October 23, 2006, 01:01 PM
Are you sure he wasn't talking about frangible ammo (reference (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/in_the_field/hevi_shot_frang_ammo/))? One of those "looks" like a shot-shell, but actually the capsule fully contains the shot, which is then dispersed inside the single wound. You get full impact of the weight of the bullet, but little penetration.

El Tejon
October 23, 2006, 02:02 PM
IN, you met your first gun shoppe commando. It's a special day for you, my friend.:D

Everyone in a gun shoppe is full of rubbish. Do not listen to anything you hear in a gun shoppe or gun show.

Remember, in the gun culture, the subjective is objective. His precatory desires (wish I could shoot fellow human beings and not be sued--ah ha! shotshells) do not translate into reality.

Guys will talk about their opinions on guns or ammo, but their opinions are merely that and usually wrong as they are uneducated. You see the same thing on THR. Last week someone was talking about how "strong and robust" a lever action is.:rolleyes: Any handloader will tell you a lever action is not strong nor robust, but the poster wanted it to be therefore it is true.

BTW, since Indiana has no training requirement, where did you take classes? Bravo to you for seeking training.:)

NORTEXED
October 23, 2006, 02:02 PM
In snaky country, I sometimes carry my New Service in .45 Colt with my own snake load. .444 Marlin cases cut off to cylinder length, 6 Gr. of Herco, over powder card wad, filled with #6 copper plated shot, overshot wad, gentle roll crimp, and a touch of red fingernail polish to seal it. Carries almost as much shot as a 2 3/4" .410 shell:D The 444 Marlins have almost the same head and rim dimentions as a 45 Colt (require only trimming to cylinder length of your particular arm), and are VERY effective out to about 15-20 feet.

IN>IL
October 23, 2006, 02:56 PM
Hey El Tejon,

I did my training in Illinois. Knowing I was going to move to Indiana soon, I took a private detective shooting course at a community college, and then an NRA approved (and Missouri concealed carry approved) course in Belleville, Illinois.

MSgt B
October 24, 2006, 12:11 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If you shoot someone with one of those "snake loads" you'd better be prepared to have the snot beaten out of you.

(Jeez, I'm still giggling)

UglyGlock
October 24, 2006, 01:30 AM
The first two are shotshells.
i sometimes carry one of these:
http://www.amderringer.com/m1.html
loaded with these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=273721
It's quite a handful, in a very small package.


NOTE: not for use in California.

OpFlash
October 24, 2006, 12:24 PM
UglyGlock I wouldn't rely on 410 buck out of a 2" barrel. I recently considered the Taurus 4410 pistol, I think it has a 6" barrel. I was told by those who had them that 410 buck just dents hardwood. Shotgun shells perform very poorly out of short barrels. I would only use them with small shot for snakes, etc. A 45Colt round will be much more powerful out of that derringer than buckshot.

OpFlash
October 24, 2006, 12:29 PM
MSgt B wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

If you shoot someone with one of those "snake loads" you'd better be prepared to have the snot beaten out of you.

(Jeez, I'm still giggling)
I don't think you'd be giggling with one of those to the face, so I wouldn't ridicule someone who considered it. Still, you're right its not a good idea because you can't count on a clear face shot and also the legal ramifications.

kungfuhippie
October 24, 2006, 01:11 PM
yeah, the guys that frequent the shops can't be taken for expert, of course the guys on the other side of the counter can be just as uninformed.

A month ago I was looking at a local shop. After the guy told me that .223 hits harder than 30-06:rolleyes: cause "the .223 can shatter your skeleton if you're hit right":barf: :barf: :barf: (I bet he could be a spokesman for the LAPD)

I then asked to see the Carcano on the rack, he grabbed a ruger 10/22 (cause they look like WWII c&r guns:banghead: ) I said, "no, not that one." He then grabbed the black stock, stainless 10/22 beside it:banghead:

I said, "it's a bolt action gun, the one with a scope" (poor thing spent a night with Bubba)

He then got it right since the only other scope rifle was a daisy air-rifle:banghead:

Why does he get money to be stuped?

That's why I don't believe people that are trying to sell you stuff.

That shop gives a S&W pistol (not sure which) to each employee who sells 50 S&W handguns. So be weary of shop nerds that push a certain brand as better or say things like,

"you'd be better off duck hunting with this S&W revolver, more accurate than a shotgun":neener:

Should I get a 2nd job there for long enough to sell the 50 guns and quit with my S&W in hand?:evil:

mpmarty
October 24, 2006, 01:53 PM
One must keep in mind that the salesman in a gun store is just that, a salesman. If used car salesmen were competent mechanics they wouldn't be salesmen.
If people led full, satisfying lives they wouldn't go around trying to impress total strangers. Smile nicely and move on. :)

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