How "strongly" can I tell a pervert to stay AWAY from MY FAMILY???


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Green Lantern
October 22, 2006, 06:22 PM
Sorry if this is deemed "off-topic" - but it IS self-defense related, and as a CCW holder, I want to make sure to avoid doing anything illegal. For my OWN sake as well as CCWers as a whole...

The "subject" is the neighbor of my aunt and female cousin. The cousin has mentioned that he has made "unwelcome andvances" toward her for many years. It's generally thought that this freak has a screw loose, and it's STRONGLY suspected that he's a patient at a Methadone clinic. IE, "recovering" drug addict...

I don't know what he told her this morning, she wouldn't say and I don't think I WANT to know. He told her not to tell anyone later, but she informed him that she had already told a mutual family freind, her brother-in-law, and she was going to tell me, which she obviously did.

(I didn't say anything to HER about it, but even if it DOES scare him off a bit - I really wish she hadn't added "and he's just crazy enough to put a bullet in your head" to him regarding me...! :banghead: )

Here's where things get tricky...being married to such a POS, the guy's wife is regarded with much sympathy by my cousin. I spoke with her brother in law about getting the law involved, maybe a restraining order....

(I KNOW a R.O. isn't worth the paper it's printed on, but at least this way if the psycho DOES attack her, it'll be known that we TRIED to use "the system!)

...but he said that SHE wouldn't want his wife upset by finding out...! :banghead: :banghead: Great, huh? She dosen't really want ANYone finding out.

The brother-in-law thinks that if we just simply told him to "cut it out," he'd stay away. But I fear any of us (except for the mutual freind) talking to the guy for saying anything that might be taken as a threat - or even if we're as civil as can be, the creep could LIE about it and cause us trouble....

I need some advice, preferably more specific than "don't do anything stupid or illegal," and you guys are about the best source offhand I can think of for this sort of thing....

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Aguila Blanca
October 22, 2006, 06:34 PM
I agree with the suggestion that if any of you tell him to "just stay away," it could (probably would) be construed as a threat. And isn't it? After all, just saying "stay away" is rather meaningless. His response is likely to be "And what if I don't?" Then what do you say?

The restraining order route is the way to go. Sure, we all know it's worthless, but as you noted ... it demonstrates that you tried to work within the system. You should get the order (screw the poor wife's sentiments, she needs to know what he's up to so she can decide whether or not she really wants to be married to the guy), and if he violates the order don't hesitate to call the police and have him arrested. This is the kind of situation where you really want/need to create that paper trail.

hankdatank1362
October 22, 2006, 07:18 PM
Would arming your cousin be out of the question?

shermacman
October 22, 2006, 07:21 PM
You better get that restraining order. Obviously it is not worth the paper it is printed on in terms of preventing the perv's behavior. But it is worth its weight in unobtainium if you have to act with force.

Green Lantern
October 22, 2006, 07:25 PM
(on arming her)- not quite out of the question, but I don't see it happening. (she's perfectly legal to own a gun, BTW)

I DID give her a Sabre OC/CN unit a while back. I'm pretty sure she just stuck in a drawer though. I **knew** SOMEthing was amiss when she had it sitting on the table within arms reach when I visited today. Tried to give her some of my Fox for good measure, but she said she was ok with this one. Test-fired it for her to be on the safe side.

They have a household gun....a .22 short revolver...ugh. She's said she'd use it on an intruder....

It's like my hands are tied, trying to help someone who isn't willing to look at all options (even the best one, Restraining Order) to help HERSELF... :(

Now MIND you, the reluctance to get one was heresay from her sister and brother in law.

I think I need to talk to her in some more detail, esp. about at the very LEAST getting the sheriff's dept. involved somehow. Then maybe on making sure she really is willing and able to use a gun to defend herself (esp. a .22!). Maybe see if she'd be willing to borrow my Bersa Thunder .380 til this is settled.

I don't want to call the cops without HER consent though (at this point) - because it wouldn't take much to figure out who called them, then she'd be ticked at ME! :banghead:

loki.fish
October 22, 2006, 07:47 PM
No offense but it sounds like she's become one of the sheeple. She doesn't seem to be too concerned about her own safety if she's reluctant to do anything for fear of "upsetting" the worthless guys wife. I'd ask her straight up, "What's more important to you, you're safety or upsetting a stranger for fear of your well being?" Maybe that'll wake her up.

one eyed fatman
October 22, 2006, 08:43 PM
...

crunker
October 22, 2006, 08:56 PM
Suing for sexual harassment is a good idea.

I agree with what's said above, ARM YOUR COUSIN. Tell her to openly carry a weapon, preferably something big and intimidating like a MAC or Uzi handgun.

Heavy Metal Hero
October 22, 2006, 09:02 PM
Not sure but the cops in my county wouldn't issue a restraining order to a local kid harassing my mother. They would rather have me get into a physical confrontation. They said in order for them to write an R.O. they needed evidence of PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. That may be a factor where she lives, although I think the cops in my area are just lazy P.O.S.'s

If possible I would go with a R.O. If anything did happen after that you would have "more" justification towards the result.

Green Lantern
October 22, 2006, 09:03 PM
I could do some extended target practice at her house - better yet get HER to do some too!

...if it wouldn't "scare the dog!" :banghead:

No offense taken, loki. It's like she can't handle thinking about the worst that could happen. Not that it's healthy to do so 24-7! But it sure leaves you better prepared if it DOES happen as opposed to just go about with your head in the sand.

Forget "sheeple" - I'm starting to think there's another classification - people that know bad stuff can happen but would rather ignore it - the Ostrich! ;)

PoPo22
October 22, 2006, 09:15 PM
I'm not sure about the laws in your state, but I would first see if I could get a "Criminal Trespass" notice issued. This can be done in person and in the pesence of a LEO, or by by registered letter with a copy filed with your local LEO dept. if you don't want a "face to face". This would enable the LEO's to arrest the subj. if caught on the property immediately, if he left before they witness him there, a warrant could be issued. This would also serve to let him know in no uncertain terms that she does not want him around her.

I would then follow through with the "restraining order" for further documentation that he is not wanted around and that you consider him to be a threat. This serves several purposes, not the least is that you are in fear of him and his possible actions. You are creating the perception to the LEO's in your area that he is an ongoing threat and that you are requesting their assistance in dealing with a possible stalking situation. Perceptions can be very valuable to you, especially if the situation goes "south" and she is forced to use deadly force to protect herself or other family members. It is very important to start the documentation trail. Good Luck

ilbob
October 22, 2006, 09:30 PM
Not sure but the cops in my county wouldn't issue a restraining order to a local kid harassing my mother. They would rather have me get into a physical confrontation. They said in order for them to write an R.O. they needed evidence of PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. That may be a factor where she lives, although I think the cops in my area are just lazy P.O.S.'s

I was under the impression the RO's were issued by courts and not by the cops. Perhaps you might have had better luck in the court system getting an RO.

TallPine
October 22, 2006, 10:09 PM
In Montana, basically only a domestic (or ex-domestic) partner can get a RO against anybody. We know, because we already tried a few years ago :(




How "strongly" ? ... hmmm, I suppose that depends on your jurisdiction and how the local LE view this guy. Sorta funny in a way - I have heard several people in our neighborhood say that they would shoot our ex-neighbor if he ever comes back around (and I actually have not said that out loud - yet anyway ;) ). So if I ever see him again, I could honestly tell him that people in the area had been threatening to kill him so he better stay away. :p

Aguila Blanca
October 22, 2006, 10:11 PM
Not sure but the cops in my county wouldn't issue a restraining order to a local kid harassing my mother. They would rather have me get into a physical confrontation. They said in order for them to write an R.O. they needed evidence of PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. That may be a factor where she lives, although I think the cops in my area are just lazy P.O.S.'s
???????

Police don't write restraining orders. Judges write restraining orders. Evidence of physical violence is NOT necessary, the whole point of the fool things is to (wishfully) prevent physical violence.

Green Lantern
October 22, 2006, 10:19 PM
It wasn't too long ago or very far away where John Woodring ignored the RO against him and murdered his wife in a battered women's shelter...

IF she agrees to get a RO, and IF the judge gives her any trouble about getting it, I'll "remind" the judge about THAT...

:banghead: Tho I guess he could say "see, it didn't help HER now did it..." :banghead:

SoCalShooter
October 22, 2006, 10:22 PM
Personally I would arm her. And get her a folding blade she can carry in a pocket. I hope nothing happens also the RO is a good idea it is a paper trail.

WESTTX357
October 22, 2006, 10:33 PM
First i would find out all i could about the guy such as if he is on probation or parole and if so i would contact his probation officer. Second i would contact local law enforcement and make sure they are aware of the situiation just in case you or your family have to take some kind of action it will be documented that there is an on going problem and hopefully when you contact lawenforcement you will get an old school cop who will go have a heart to heart talk with the guy.

PoPo22
October 22, 2006, 10:43 PM
Unfortunately no piece of paper (no matter what name: Protective order, restraining order, peace bond, etc.) is going to protect anyone from the actions of a determined perpetrator, thats just wishful thinking. Ultimately, your immediate defense at the crucial moment is most likely going to be up to you. Learning how to defend yourself by whatever means you choose is each persons right and responsibility. The police cannot be everywhere, all the time (and I really don't think any of us want a policeman standing on every corner or at our front door).

Laws are primarily enacted to deal with crimes after the fact. In cases such as this, that will be too late to help the woman. Predators usually plan to victimize persons when they are alone and presumably most vulnerable. Encourage her to develop the mindset of a fighter, not a victim. Good Luck

Gunfire
October 22, 2006, 11:16 PM
I'm going to have to go against the grain here. If everyone that has ever had "unwelcome advances" from a neighbor or an acquaintance filed restraining orders, everyone would have restraining orders against everyone. Society has become so sensitive to annoyances they have become weak and can't seem to deal with life without government assistance. This is nothing more, it has been happening since the dawn of time. Your cousin has handled this very maturely except for the comment. Defuse the situation. Ignore the creep or subtlely make a joke of him. Next time he pulls his **** she could tell him she's not available nor interested but she knows a loving homosexual that would be.

Lighten up guys, restraining orders are not the end all, be all, and usually just piss off the subject and make things worst than they really are. Do we really want the government thinking they must settle every little annoyance and/or argument? Not me.

AJAX22
October 22, 2006, 11:18 PM
We had something like that happen in my family waaaaay back in the day, As I recall, one of my uncles did the talking, another leaned against the car with something heavy and blunt.

This was back before video cameras and cell phones, but the principles still the same.

Get a RO, its easy and in todays society, whoever files the paperwork first is the good guy.

After that, a discussion would not be a bad idea, but make sure you take along a friend who's big and scarry, but clean cut and credible if the police get called.

wear a nice shirt, nice slacks, and make sure you don't look like you're headin over to whoop a$$.

Make no overt threats, simply make eye contact and state

"I understand that you've been paying alot of attention to a certain member of my family. This attention is not appriciated. I love my family, and so do many others. This attention stops, and it stops today. The subject is not open for discussion, Have a pleasant day"

then turn and walk away

If he lies, well, you have a wittness (who will be much more believable than a pos)

Heavy Metal Hero
October 22, 2006, 11:22 PM
Aguila,

Yeah sorry I knew what I meant. They told me that I couldn't get one unless there had been evidence of violence. LIke I said most LEO's around here work their "9 to 5" for the green and could care less about going out of their way to help.

favorite .22
October 22, 2006, 11:36 PM
sick sacks of garbage like the creep mentioned only understand one way...i know i have delt with a few in the past. unfortunately there is nothing the police will do till he acts on his intentions. good luck.

jeepmor
October 22, 2006, 11:45 PM
It's really not your problem. The choice is hers, not yours. Give some advice, try to compel her to act on it in some fashion, and be done with it.

You can't be there all the time, you can't save the world, the ball's in her court now. If she's a sheeple, it could be to her detriment, if not, just get her one of those nice key chain knives for self defense. I used to have one, my wife loved it and ended up with it years ago. A simple piece of hardware that provides some pretty decent piece of mind. One of those knives you grab with a fist and the blade comes out between you fingers.

jeepmor

Kowboy
October 22, 2006, 11:53 PM
Lantern:

"It's generally thought that this freak has a screw loose, and it's STRONGLY suspected that he's a patient at a Methadone clinic. IE, "recovering" drug addict..."

In this country, "generally thought" and "strongly suspected" are not close to "beyond a reasonable doubt" or even a "preponderence of the evidence".

I have been wrongly accused of improprities and even though there has never been a shred of evidence and I've recieved apologies, it is not cool.

You need to do some homework. You need proof positive, not hearsay, before making accusations and especially before "taking action".

Speaking from experience,

Kowboy

Prince Yamato
October 23, 2006, 01:41 AM
"or what?" he asks?


...pining for 100 years ago when you could open your frock coat to reveal a Colt .45, close your coat, walk away, security at hand, freakwad scared.

Brass Fetcher
October 23, 2006, 01:51 AM
Would talking, privately, with the person of interest work? It has been amazing to me in the past how a male who can threaten a female, suddenly changes his pace when another male confronts him about it. Just be civil and 'ask questions' as opposed to 'making statements'. Let him control the conversation, but make sure that you control what is discussed in the conversation - almost all of the talking points.

This makes them feel still 'like a man', but lets them know that you know what is up and that you are dominant over them. Much better IMO than anything that launches lead.

mike101
October 23, 2006, 04:59 AM
I think Ajax22 has the right idea. Let him know that he needs to knock it off, NOW. No discussion, no debate.

Also, if the woman would be willing to use a .22 short, she should be willing to use a .38.

Christmas is just around the corner. :D

LAK
October 23, 2006, 05:24 AM
There is really only one way to handle someone like this, and the first step is to have this guy begin his official/police "history" - this aside from any other criminal records etc he may already have. I mean a history as to his contact with your family.

I am not one to advise people to trouble police agencies with trivia and other time wasting nonsense, but in this case your family members must begin making police reports every single time this guy does or says anything that could be interpreted as threatening, intimdating, or stalking etc.

This will set a baseline on the record, and should anything happen at a later time - or things get really ugly - this guy will have already established himself as the problem.

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Ryder
October 23, 2006, 06:01 AM
Tell his wife.

strambo
October 23, 2006, 06:03 AM
She needs to get the RO!!! This is the type of case where they can actually work. He is a neighbor and is doing what he thinks he can get away with and is not thinking about consequences. Getting served with an RO will be a big wake up call and may put an end to it. It's not like a domestic situation where there is a prior relationship and all those emotions.

Do not do the "talk to him routine" before getting professional advice. This almost always makes things worse. If she isn't consistent in her dealings with him (consistent with your threats), it will really make things worse. Doesn't sound like she is sending a clear, consistent signal to him if she is afraid of the wife finding out.

ChrisPer
October 23, 2006, 06:40 AM
Gavan de Becker (sorry, now corrected) in 'The Gift of Fear' has a lot of good and counterintuitive advice.

Much of it depends on whatever the person's problem is.

As far as confrontation and 'stay away or else' messages go, you might easily create a huge reinforcement of a persecution complex or paranoia.

For the obsessives and stalkers his method is absolute withdrawal of response. Phone takes messages only, mail is opened and vetted by someone else and no response is given at all to any provocation attempting to re-establish contact. Drive out without looking at him.

The behaviour will escalate to try and get the attention back on him. Then it will usually fade out.

Restraining orders only work in some cases. The thing is for truly scary types they make things worse.

mike101
October 23, 2006, 07:12 AM
+1 on telling his wife. That's probably the best, simplest idea yet. He could deny it, and it might just cause her not to like you, but I'll bet he stops. Maybe you could wear a Smith & Wesson T-Shirt when you do. :evil:

strambo
October 23, 2006, 07:30 AM
Yes, Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift Of Fear" is the primary text on this and related topics. Get it from the library, have her (and every woman you love) read it.

Everytime someone mentions DeBecker someone else says he's an anti-gun hypocrite. Yup, he is. He is also one of the, if not "the", leading expert on this subject. I don't read his work to learn how to shoot, I read it to know real world methods of helping loved ones or potential clients deal with stalkers...short of shootin' 'em.;)

Edit to add: Hey it's just the advice of another internet guy with minimal professional training in this...but I wouldn't suggest telling the wife, you or her. To what end? You think the wives of scumbags like this have control or influence on their husbands? All that will do is create marital strife between them and make YOU or HER the direct, 100% at fault cause of that in HIS mind. He isn't gonna look at it like "I brought this on myself". I'd also bet money, she won't be appreciative either and will probably blame you too. You ruined her denial.

Will she find out if the cousin gets the RO...most likely, but you or the cousin aren't directly butting into their business by telling the wife and expecting her to do something about it. His action=legal consequence. Have a plan "B" for her protection if he comes over with intent to do harm.

Art Eatman
October 23, 2006, 09:17 AM
This sort of question should start with talking to a lawyer, not looking for legal advice here at THR.

Art

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