FN 5.7 Handgun


PDA






Ginny
October 24, 2006, 07:10 PM
Anyone have the FN 5.7 yet? I'm really thinking about picking one up, depending on the price ... might even carry it off duty, depending on the size and weight! :evil:

If you enjoyed reading about "FN 5.7 Handgun" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Ala Dan
October 24, 2006, 07:33 PM
I sell 'em NIB for $879, and they come with three (3) 20 round magazines.
Can't address the weight issue, but they sure feel mighty light~!:cool: :D

real_name
October 24, 2006, 08:25 PM
There's a few interesting threads on this forum about them, you can search on the options above.
The one concern I have heard voiced is that there are sometimes shortages of the ammo. I considered a FiveseveN for carry but this put me off.

Anna's Dad
October 24, 2006, 10:51 PM
They look sweet to me. Too darn expensive for my tastes. I could by three Rugers or even a couple of used Sigs for that price!

atblis
October 24, 2006, 11:05 PM
They are interesting. Recoil is very light, but still there.

Unless you're shooting armored personel, it is nothing special.

Ginny
October 25, 2006, 12:18 AM
What do they sound like? :confused:

M2 Carbine
October 25, 2006, 10:20 AM
I have the FN 5.7.
I haven't shot it enough, or tested it enough to develop any hard core opinions about round.

It is interesting.

The only problem I have with it is the brass is hard to find and expensive and has some kind of coating that makes it a pain to reload.

And no case manufacturers make 5.7x28 brass.


There is a strange phenomena that surrounds the 5.7x28.
Someone can look at or pick up the FN 5.7 pistol and become an instant expert on the gun and round it shoots, with out actually ever even firing the gun.:D

atblis
October 25, 2006, 10:22 AM
I've shot them. They are interesting. I find the round kinda underwhelming really. It didn't seem very loud. They accomplish what they were designed for, but not too much more (which is good engineering).

They are very fun to shoot


I am not advocating not buying one, just don't expect it to be some magical fantastic pistol. There are no magic bullets.

Again
If you plan on shooting at armored personel, the FiveSeven is your best bet.
If you don't plan on shooting at armored personel, then why is 5.7x28 better than a 9mm/45acp/40SW/10mm/...?
I could see it as a small game/varmint cartridge.


Do you know anything about its performance?
Do you? How many people have you shot with it? I've probably read all the same crap you have. It's nice discussing stuff on a forum with people who will agree with everything you say. If I go to the Chevy forum, chevys are the best cars ever. If I go to the Ford forum well. For every positive article I've read, I've read a negative.

BTW the FN rep is a sales guy, so I'd probably take whatever he says with a grain of salt or two. "Hey guess what, you can't buy the super duper military stuff, but here buy this instead it's better anyways" :scrutiny:

This is why the US Secret service, FBI HRT, nearly a hundred SWAT teams, and numerous local law enforcement agencies deploy it regularly
That's because they recognize the possibility of engaging armored targets. If they didn't plan on encountering armored personel, why would they bother with it?

Ammo is expensive, so that kinda rules out plinking (which I admit they'd be great for but...)

nearly approach
Uhh. Two mitigating words in one phrase.

Manedwolf
October 25, 2006, 10:23 AM
I just personally, from results I've seen, think that it's the answer to a question nobody really asked.

Yes, the lack of recoil and light weight are fine, as is the ammo capacity. But otherwise...since the civilian ammo can NOT pierce armor, I'd think it'd be far less useful for civilians. If I want something to use against an attacker with armor, since I am a civilian, I'd likely choose the old Tok TT-33, which most certainly can defeat Level II armor with its widely available and perfectly civilian-legal 7.62x25 rounds. It's also not nearly $900.

Helstrm
October 25, 2006, 10:31 AM
I know that the civilian ammo I used in mine put holes in the plate machine (cut through it like butter)... I also believe that they will penetrate armor, at least light body armor and I could hit pins at 200 yards with it. I sold mine later because of sever over penetration. I would not use one for a carry for that reason but I have nothing bad to say about the gun. I think it would be a great option for a tactical combat weapon. What other handgun can engage targets at 200 yards and hold 20 rounds per mag?

panzermk2
October 25, 2006, 11:54 AM
Quote:
Do you know anything about its performance?
Do you? How many people have you shot with it? I've probably read all the same crap you have. It's nice discussing stuff on a forum with people who will agree with everything you say. If I go to the Chevy forum, chevys are the best cars ever. If I go to the Ford forum well. For every positive article I've read, I've read a negative.

Actually MO has shot a BG with a 5.7 and dropped him with one shot. Not everyone who posts is a barstool commando

atblis
October 25, 2006, 12:15 PM
I thought of that possibility when I was typing that. Decided to play the odds.

Fortunately, one shooting a comprehensive study does not make (still infinitely more experience than most of us will ever have (good thing)).

Helstrm
October 25, 2006, 12:22 PM
Medula Oblongata, Good reading, After the way mine cut up the plate machine I thought it would over penetrate. I was also wondering if the round tumbles after impact.. With the Velocity and bullet weight I would think it would fly right through it's target unless it tumbled on entry.

I am a .45 fan but I would carry the FiveSeven over a 9mm any day of the week. Chances are I would buy another one in the future. While I had mine I put about 500 rounds through it without one failure and it is THE most accurate pistol rounds I have ever shot.

panzermk2
October 25, 2006, 12:42 PM
Also keep in mind the 5.7 comes on 2 ammo classes if you will.

1st SS190,192,195 that penatrate hard parts and then keyhole tumble when the gooey goodness is hit afterwards.

2nd SS196,197 these are desigend to frag. when loaded for the night stand I have the 197 in mine to reduce wall penatration if I miss the BG.

different tools for different jobs

shield20
October 25, 2006, 01:00 PM
See, now the articles I read showed results that weren''t condusive to SD re: poor penetration and expansion.

Medula, can you give us some real data we could use for comparison? (i.e. terminal ballistics, expansion, penetration etc.)

Thanks!

papabear47
October 25, 2006, 01:01 PM
I would not want to be hit by any high velocity fragmenting round by accident,and at 2000 fps. there is a good probability of fragmentation not to mention hydroscopic shock, especially with a cranial or thorax hit. But then again if you are dead a lawsuit by your survivors will net much less or nothing at all than if you survive to testify....My youngest son Graduated with a Criminal Justice Degree from the University of Illinois at Normal so do not consider me a Cop basher....Never shot or even seen said firearm.

panzermk2
October 25, 2006, 01:08 PM
Sure!

Go to: http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/index.php?

Register and join the community.

If you can think of it someone most likely has shot it and taken pictures

shield20
October 25, 2006, 01:14 PM
Thanks MO - checking out some pics of gelatin results now (FHN promos & from DSE)!

Much different (i.e. better) then the impressions I got in reading gun mag reviews!

Smurfslayer
October 25, 2006, 02:16 PM
I saw 3 NIB examples at the last Dale City gun show, all from FFL's under $800. IIRC, $769 was the bargain. One used for $750 I think.

I have not had great success reloading too. First, it kicks the brass about 20 feet to the 2 o'clock position. However, at the above mentioned show I was able to score some ss195LF ammo for $15.95 / box, so that's helped.

It's accurate enough, and I don't think it's ever choked on factory loads, but has on my reloads. There's no blaming the gun for that, and I'm sure I'll narrow down and address the issue but it's been a tad more picky than other cartridges/guns I reload for. When it's not choking on my latest reload error, it's pretty fun to shoot.

wscott43
October 25, 2006, 02:25 PM
Thanks MO and Mike.

I have been interested in some unvarnished info on the FiveSeven pistol. The fiveseven forum has provided a wealth of information that I can now use to make a (hopefully) informed decision on whether or not to add it as my primary self-defense weapon. I currently use an SW 640 with CT laser sight as my SD weapon. However, even with 5 .38 Spl Speer Gold Dot 125 gr bullets on tap, I sometimes wonder if would need more. I'm a former small arms instructor, but the key word is "former." I'm much older now, wear bifocals, and my relexes are slowing. I've never been an advocate of the "spray and pray" school of shooting, but I've found that my rapid fire strings are starting to creep (sometimes, gallop) toward the edges of the targets. The idea of not having to do a combat reload is becoming more attractive to me all the time. The FiveSeven is of interest because of the lower recoil and apparently higher accuracy, and of course, the 20-rd mag.

Thanks for this thread.

Bill

Flopsy
October 25, 2006, 03:10 PM
What do they sound like?

Bang. Bang bang. Bang-bang, bang.

Seriously though, I fired one recently. It was the lightest pistol I ever handled and the recoil was very light. It was an interesting shoot, but I'd wonder about the knockdown power.

Slvr Surfr
October 25, 2006, 04:36 PM
I have one and love it. Its fun to shoot, and is impressive at the range. Its definitely louder than a .22 Mag. The only down side I can think of is its a bit too large for CC. The grip is a bit more than full size. While I think Im a pretty broad fellow, Im not sure how I would go about packin it concealed. I packed a full size 1911 around for a while and I think the FN probably is just a hair bit wider. The tall sights also wouldnt help it be snag free.

Ammo is a pain to find, and can be an expensive proposition.

P99guy
October 25, 2006, 05:32 PM
There are a lot of us that use it as a CC pistol...its pysically no bigger than a M1911, and is only 1.7 pounds loaded, so it dont sag or tug at you. Its one of the most comfortable service pistols I have ever carried, In a Blade-tech IWB it hides rather well and the grip stays tucked in tight against your ribs.It is actually easier to carry and hide than my Sig P229R. And the sights have never been an issue in any way....lightning fast draws from a proper holster...might be an issue if you shoved it down the front of your pants.
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/244/2004-07-06002.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8804/2004-07-06003.jpg

compared to a M1911Govt model in the same model blade tech IWB
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2379/200407070016jc.jpg
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4999/200405280029vd.jpg

panzermk2
October 25, 2006, 05:35 PM
So Mr. p99guy you seem to be somewhat qualified to post like that. What are your qualifications concerning the 5.7 pray tell?:neener:


PS Nice candle

MatthewVanitas
October 25, 2006, 10:07 PM
@ Medula: now you've gone and done it! I had just about settled down with my "just one centerfire sidearm" system (CZ PCR), and now you come along with this...

I just went and joined the FN5.7 forum (www.fivesevenforum.com), and am starting the learning process. Before this goes through, two things to happen:

1) Wolf needs to come out with 5.7mm ammo on for 20c a shot or less (which is allegedly happening "by the end of 2006"

2) Someone in the Austin area needs to let me hold an FN 5.7 in my pink little paw and actually shoot it. I'm sold on the sizzle, but I need to taste some steak before I whip out the folding money.


If I get one, I'm sticking it into a repro WWI holster. I may not be able to put ivory grips on it, but I need to do something so as not to become too Tacticool.

-MV

-MV

Teapot
October 25, 2006, 10:46 PM
I have never had the opportunity to shoot one but it is well designed and put together.

Why should it not be a good pistol? All bullets are designed to put a hole in a body and deprive the brain of oxygen via interrupting blood flow in one way or another. All rounds are capable of this; even the .22 short.

Many doubt the 5.7 round's efficacy but I certainly would not like to get shot with it. Trust my life with it? Yes, if I had enough training and familiarity with it. Still incredulolus? Many veterans will tell you how they disliked the 1911 as they could not hit the broad side of a barn with it. However, given enough time with the pistol it would be possible to master it eventually.

The FN57, in the hands of someone who has trained with it, is enough gun for any purpose. Of course the same can be said of any firearm and caliber.
I would buy one if I could afford the $1,500 price tag and find enough ammuniton for it. Instead, I bought a $150 Tokarev with 2,280 rounds of Czech military surplus for $250; solves the AP dilemma. And if your so inclined, make every second round in the magazine a Magsafe or file every second round into a spoon configuration as the Germans did with their new PDW;that solves the defensive round dilemma.

But the 57 is certainly a quality pistol. Any LEO to get it as his duty carry is fortunate indeed.

hurrakane212
October 25, 2006, 11:03 PM
Welcome to the fold, Matthew! And here's your glass of kool-aid. Its a good thing to have (after all the hate you will recieve for being a fan you'll WANT to drink it in very short order) especially when posting on forums like these.

You will find the conversation much different at fivesevenforum.com, much more civilized.
__________________
Just because some people have doubts about your preferred platform/cartridge I don't think that in any way qualifies as "uncivilized." I don't know enough about the round to make comments about its effectiveness, but I do know a little something about THR. This is a good forum, relatively free from the pissing contests that populate most forums on most topics.

Just because your premise ( 5.7 is awesome) is challenged does not infer incivility. It is debate and the conflict of ideas/methods that leads to a "civilized" society.

Of course one would find the conversation much different at fivesevenforum.com... as you would find it different at sigforums.com or xdtalk.com. If your cartridge/platform is great in your eyes (whatever that may be) then shoot it, enjoy it, and don't be "miffed" if other people feel differently.~Nathan

taliv
October 25, 2006, 11:03 PM
careful matthew! if you get one, it'll just be a matter of time before you start eyeballing a PS90.

btw, matthew, you can get a magazine extension that extends it about 1" and adds 10 rnds to the capacity. so, 20 rnds in the gun, and a 30 rnd spare on your belt, that's 50 rounds at hand. It'd take SEVEN 1911 mags to do that.

if you plan to drive through TN any time soon, PM me and you can shoot mine.

real_name
October 25, 2006, 11:12 PM
Must suppress urge to buy a FiveseveN...

One shot destroyed his pelvis and dropped him on his head like he was hit by an 800lb gorilla.


Must suppress urge to buy a FiveseveN...

I can reload a hundred rounds for less than $8.


Surrenders.

Trebor
October 26, 2006, 02:25 AM
Medula Oblongata,

I have a 5.7 and it's an interesting weapon, but I'm still a skeptic. I just got some ammo in the mail and I'll be headed to the range with the pistol on Friday. I'll reserve judgement on the "shootability" and perceived recoil until that time. Until then though, can you answer some questions for me?

First off, I am a civilian, so I am limited to the civilian legal loads. That means that any info that *only* applies to the restricted LEO/MIL loads isn't really that helpful to me.

Second, I don't reload, and I'm not going to start anytime soon. That means that any info on the great handloads that can be developed for the round is also not of any use to me. I don't really care what the *potential* of the round when using a hotrodded custom load. I only care about the practical performance of the standard commercially available civilian loads.

Third, I own the FiveseveN handgun. I do not own or plan to own a P90. Therefore I'd like to discuss the performance of the loads when fired from the handgun only.

With that in mind, you can understand why I want to limit the discussion to the commercially available, civilian legal, loads, fired from the handgun.

Either its an "over penetrator" or doesn't penetrate enough.

Do any of the civilian loads when fired out of the handgun penetrate the 12" that the FBI regards as the minimum acceptable standard? The info I've seen over at the 5.7 forum showed penetration less then that standard. (Now, if you want to dispute the validity of that 12" standard, that's another argument. It is a commonly accepted benchmark though).

The SS190 cartrige penetrates LESS than civilian legal ammo. In fact when the FN rep commented about the new SS197 sporting round that utilizes the Hornady 40grn VMax, that "this is the round we should have been making all along." While the bullet will not defeat armor, it penetrates further and creates a much larger wound profile than a solid, traditional FMJ aluminum core AP projectile.

I did notice that the 197 round penetrated further then the 195 on the tables over at the 5.7 forum. It was still less then 12", IIRC, but was a noticeable improvement over the 195. I also noticed that pretty much everyone over there reccomended the 195 for defense use. Why is that?

As far as the shooting you were involved in were you used a 5.7 Was that the handgun or the P90? What load was used? I'm betting its one of the LEO only loads, correct?

Have their been any shootings reported using any of the civilian legal loads? I would understand if all the LEO involved shootings use the LEO loads. But, as a civilian, I can't use that ammo, and assurances that the LEO rounds perform wonderfully are cold comfort to me.

How much does the civvie legal stuff actually give up when compared to the LEO/MIL loads?

For the record, I'm concerned that the light weight of the bullet will overly limit penetration in a defensive situation and I'm also concerned that the small cross-section of the bullet will make it less likely to damage a vital spot, artery, etc.

I do understand the counterargument that the high velocity creates a greater wound channel. I just don't know if that is actually the case when using only the civilian legal loads. The data from police shootings using police loads is not as helpful as data would be involving the civvie loads.

I can see the advantages in reduced recoil, and I'll get a better feeling for that after I shoot my gun, but the round still has to have good terminal performance on the target. That's where I have reservations.

Manedwolf
October 26, 2006, 10:16 AM
One question I don't think anyone has yet addressed is the unfortunate reality of a civil suit following a self-defense situation.

The attacker's deadbeat family seems to always pull a "He was a good boy, we need a million bucks to spend on booze!" garbage...and the FiveseveN has already been villified as a "cop killer" :rolleyes: pistol in some states.

Could that be a liability if it were held up by a sleazy civil lawyer in a courtroom?

Oh, and also, regarding the Tok:

And if your so inclined, make every second round in the magazine a Magsafe or file every second round into a spoon configuration as the Germans did with their new PDW;that solves the defensive round dilemma.

I will NOT use the damned MagSafe rounds in my Tok. They just don't feel right, quality control or whatever, but they feel like they're way, way overpressure in load, dangerously so. I just think that's asking for a kaboom with a 50+ year old pistol.

M2 Carbine
October 26, 2006, 10:21 AM
I offer this just as a matter of interest only.
I like to compare bullets in water jugs, wet phone bullets, etc, and I would shoot jello to if it wasn't such a pain to fool with.
But unlike the dedicated jello shooting fans I don't make that giant leap of claiming that shooting any substance proves what a bullet will do in a person.
Shooting any substance demonstrates only how the bullet preforms in that substance.

So here is a comparison of the 5.7 and 45ACP in wet phone books.
Wet phone books appear to be a good bullet stopper considering how quickly the 45 bullets were stopped.

The SS195 turned sideways after penetrating about two inches. Then it continued sideways tearing a respectable hole through the books.

The grove across the top of the books was a SS195. The SS195 and Hornady V Max bullets hit quite far apart vertically, so my first SS195 shot was high. It's interesting to note that the bullet started to turn sideways after a few inches.

The 40gr Hornady V Max bullet's penetration depended on how well it mushroomed.

The 45ACP bullets both expanded/fragmented well but were stopped quickly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/FNphonebooks2.jpg

BrennanKG
October 26, 2006, 10:44 AM
M2,

Thanks for sharing your results.

I don't suppose you're in or near San Antonio?
Like a lot of prospective FiveSeveN buyers, I'd really like to shoot one before I commit.

On a related note, does anyone know of a seller with the FiveSeveN listed below CDNN's price?


Thanks,
B.

P99guy
October 26, 2006, 11:22 AM
"So Mr. p99guy you seem to be somewhat qualified to post like that. What are your qualifications concerning the 5.7 pray tell?"-panzerMK2

lol
1. I stayed in a Holiday inn express several months ago
2. I have seen a few Mel Gibson movies
3. I have window shopped at gun stores...Hmmmm that Hi-point is a real he man cannon, wait the Bryco is really shiney.....RG for 400.00 gotta have that.
4. At the range when they say FIRE! I Stop, Drop , and Roll...they allways say go with your training.
5. and I now know when faced with a new potential next ex wife, to scream loudly "YOUR NOT MY MOMMY! LET ME GO! not get into the car with them, but stomp their foot then break away and run.

M2 Carbine
October 26, 2006, 11:56 AM
BrennanKG
I don't suppose you're in or near San Antonio?
Like a lot of prospective FiveSeveN buyers, I'd really like to shoot one before I commit.

On a related note, does anyone know of a seller with the FiveSeveN listed below CDNN's price?

Thanks,

No, I'm West of Ft Worth.

They have been selling at the gun shows around DFW in the $760 range.
I see the ammo has come down to about $18 a box.

Shooting the pistol is actually not impressive.
It's nice to shoot but it doesn't grab you like shooting something like a Kel Tec PLR-16 .223 pistol.:D
Not much noise or recoil and a 22 size hole.

Another thing I tried is shooting a bowling pin.
It appears that it does a good job of knocking the pin down and off the table.

BrennanKG
October 26, 2006, 12:04 PM
Bowling Pin shoots with a 5.7mm? Really? Now that's surprising.

Sub $800 pricing at shows in your area? I'm obviously going to the wrong gun shows. :)

Thanks,
B.

Helstrm
October 26, 2006, 12:31 PM
We shoot bowling pins with everything.. FAL, AK, Mauser, 1911 ect... Not saying we always hit the pins but they are cheap targets. Shooting the pins with a .22 is funny.. They kind of fall over slowly..

M2 Carbine
October 26, 2006, 03:46 PM
I've never shot bowling pin competition but the way it was described to me, by a shooter that was interested in knowing what the FN 5.7 would do, is the pins are positioned on a table depending on the gun used.
When hit the pin must not only be knocked over but off the table.

We set a pin up and each time we shot it with SS195 and Hornady V Max the pin was knocked backwards with enough force to have been knocked off the table.
As I recall the SS195 did better.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Bowlingpin1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Bowlingpin2.jpg

Geronimo45
October 26, 2006, 07:17 PM
I think it's an interesting concept, a pretty neat (though overpriced) pistol. Lightweight, light recoil, high capacity. Ammo is pricey, too. When it gets cheaper - or they come out with a five-seven in a compact(er) size (don't know how it would perform with a shorter barrel, though)... and when I get enough extra cash to spill.
Grrr... so many guns, so little money.

E5
October 26, 2006, 07:51 PM
this thing has me intrigued.....

I pick up my new P99 .40 today and I'm thinking more about this thing. :scrutiny:

panzermk2
October 27, 2006, 12:03 AM
It's price is right in the middle of the pack for any top shelf handgun like HK, SIG,etc.

Price on ammo is coming down to average 17 bucs for fifty rounds now that also being made in the USA. Wolf's is supposed to hit the market anyday now

Trebor
October 27, 2006, 01:00 AM
M. O.,

Thanks for the response. I'm skeptical, but I'm willing to look at the evidence. I'll see what I think about actually shooting the gun tomorrow.

jlh26oo
October 27, 2006, 02:07 AM
5. and I now know when faced with a new potential next ex wife, to scream loudly "YOUR NOT MY MOMMY! LET ME GO! not get into the car with them, but stomp their foot then break away and run.

LOL!

rockstar.esq
October 27, 2006, 03:15 AM
Seems like a lot of hubbaloo over something that just isn't much more than a .22 magnum with a better projectile. It's not like the caliber is getting any airplay with other manufacturers. My humble opinion is that it'll fade into obscurity like the .17 Remington, Trounds, and that gyrojet thing. Another take on it is that just like that Honda Hybrid from 7 years ago. New technology in an absolutely horrendously ugly wrapper doesn't exactly enamor the public. The five7 pistol is like a plastic model of some little kids idea of what works. Anyone with a normal hand can't operate the safety on it one handed. The butt ugly profile doesn't help either. There once was a .357 SIG spin off called the BAZ or somesuch. It defeated armor, steel, kevlar etc. It also fired out of an unmodified .357 sig chambered pistol. That didn't sell either so maybe I proved myself wrong. Either way I'm glad to have another interesting caliber to examine, I'm just too broke to spend the money on something that doesn't seem any more usefull than a .22Mag!

Iceman711
October 27, 2006, 03:17 AM
MO:

Why are you so quick to discredit Fackler's findings about the 5.7? Is there anyone more credible, knowledgeable, or experienced in the field of ballistics? Do you think he had errors in his testing?

loki.fish
October 27, 2006, 04:40 AM
I've had my FiveseveN for about 8 months now and haven't even put 100 rounds through it yet. It's fun to shoot and I love the pistol. I just have a hard time finding ammo locally and all the crap you have to do to order ammo through the mail turns me off of mail order stuff.

There's no felt (by me) recoil. It's extremely accurate, I mean, you have to try to miss what you're aiming for. Performance wise, I couldn't tell you what's it's capable of. Even owning the gun, I'm still a bit skeptical about it for self defense purposes. I've been a member at fivesevenforums.com since the day I bought the gun and I haven't been there since maybe 2 weeks after I registered. I've basically just been waiting for the round to become more used so I could see how well it performed. From what I can tell, it's not catching on very fast due to skepticism.

jlh26oo
October 27, 2006, 06:15 AM
Iceman- what part of this guy vaporized a pelvis with one round don't you understand? :confused:

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 06:51 AM
what part of this guy vaporized a pelvis with one round don't you understand?

That is an exaggeration, no matter what handgun and ammunition you care to mention.

jlh26oo
October 27, 2006, 07:13 AM
That is an exaggeration, no matter what handgun and ammunition you care to mention.

Ok, ok. Not "vaporize". I got carried away. Here's what he actually said:

One shot destroyed his pelvis and dropped him on his head like he was hit by an 800lb gorilla. BTW the bullet stayed in the perp.

Now, what part of One shot destroyed his pelvis and dropped him on his head like he was hit by an 800lb gorilla don't you understand? :confused:

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 07:30 AM
destroyed his pelvis

I'm sorry but that is also an exaggeration. You cannot destroy a pelvis with a handgun. I would bet that you cannot destroy a pelvis with a 12 gauge slug either. You can fracture some parts of it, and render it unstable, but you cannot destroy it. In fact it is very difficult to damage a pelvis with a handgun projectile, so that the target is immobilised involuntarily.

jlh26oo
October 27, 2006, 07:47 AM
One shot destroyed his pelvis

You cannot destroy a pelvis

:scrutiny:

How dare you. How dare you.

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 08:05 AM
Sir, if you require a detailed medical treatise on the subject, I will gladly provide it (probably in a new thread).

jlh26oo
October 27, 2006, 08:17 AM
:evil:

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 09:34 AM
@ MO

Have you something of value to add to this thread, or did you simply come here to disagree?


I read many threads, sir. And I made a comment that the destroyed pelvis is an exaggeration. I also specified that I would maintain that assertion regardless of the handgun specified. I don't have an agenda against the 5.7, but saying that you destroyed somebody's pelvis with one shot from a 5.7 is a gross exaggeration.
The value lies in educating third parties who otherwise might take what you have said as fact.

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 10:01 AM
@ MO

His pelvis IS destroyed, he will never walk on that leg again.

Whether he can walk on one leg or two, or even if he has no legs, has nothing to do with an assessment of whether the pelvis is destroyed or not. You are approaching this from the viewpoint of a layperson and I am approaching this from the viewpoint of a radiographer who has seen more than 3000 gunshot wounds and many more thousands of traumatic injuries to the pelvis. The most serious injuries I saw to the human pelvis were as follows: a guy got run over by a cement mixer and he got churned up in the wheels; in a second incident a guy was thrown under a train and he arrived at hospital on two stretchers (one for his torso and the other had his body from the groins down). In neither case was the pelvis destroyed. There were significant fractures, yes and instability or discontinuity at parts of the pelvic girdle, but they were not destroyed. The same applies to every single gunshot pelvis I have ever seen. I X-ray them, I photograph them, I watch them being repaired in theatre. Is that good enough for you?

It's just as well I don't have the X-rays in your case, because it will be all that much easier to prove that the damage can be clearly defined and that the pelvis has not been "destroyed." The only hand weapon that can destroy a pelvis is a Star trek phaser and I haven't seen a real one yet.

There have been cases (and I have some examples in my research file) where a portion of a long bone, or an entire bone from an extremity (eg a metacarpel) has been declared clinically destroyed, but in those cases there isn't enough structural integrity to fix any part of that bone with even a small fragment set. Even so, the original constituents of the bone are still present, albeit displaced, and the area of bone destruction is small. The geometry and expanse of the pelvis makes such damage impossible with a single handgun shot.

Chindo18Z
October 27, 2006, 10:08 AM
Medula Oblongata: I have no dog in this debate and no valid opinion about this caliber...just trying to learn. I'll check out your recommended forum link.

That said, I have two questions:

1. Who in USSOCOM is using this pistol or this caliber?

2. Bullet yaw? Check...got it. But, how does the bullet achieve reliable fragmentation in flesh at 2000 fps vs. the 2700+ required (for example) for M193/M855 5.56?

M2 Carbine
October 27, 2006, 10:30 AM
Odd Job,
I respect your knowledge and experience and don't disagree with what you are saying but in the context that "destroyed" is used in this case, I believe that since the man's pelvis is damaged so badly that "he will never walk on that leg again", I think "destroyed" is an acceptable layman's definition.

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 10:31 AM
Your question is most welcome sir, and I appreciate fully that the attending physician may have resorted to the simplest explanation of the reason why the guy couldn't weight bear on that side. Without having the X-rays to view, I would say that judging by your explanation the guy had a hip joint injury that was severe enough that it could not be reduced to the point where the patient regained his mobility on that side.

Don't get me wrong: that is a serious injury. It is nothing to laugh at, and there are several 'high value' vessels in that area too. My point really, is that this damage could have been caused by another handgun/ammo combination. I will see what I can dig up, and post as a matter of interest.

Odd Job
October 27, 2006, 10:37 AM
@ M2 Carbine

It is too much of a stretch. The pelvis is a large structure, and this damage sounds like it was confined to the hip. It is kind of like asserting that because one wheel on a bicycle was buckled, the whole bicycle has been destroyed. I appreciate the bicycle can't be ridden anymore, but it isn't destroyed. Perhaps the original damage should have been described in terms of loss of mobility, or a specific list of what parts of the 'bicycle' were damaged.

dragongoddess
October 27, 2006, 10:47 AM
I have been to at least a dozen shoots in the last 20 years where someone was shot with a 45 that stopped on thier winter clothing.




Can someone explain the above statement to me as I find it somewhat suspect. Not saying it cannot happen but it does seem somewhat suspect.

Iceman711
October 27, 2006, 12:18 PM
I've been doing a little research on the net. It might not be the most accurate source for info, but it is powerful and it is all I have. I find myself falling into the anti-5.7 camp. It just doesn't all add up, here are a few points:

- I think the 5.7 is a practical gun to carry when you are already using a P90. I regard the P90 as superior to an MP5, but not an M4 or other 5.56 carbine.

- The argument of "How can you judge when you havenít even shot one" is stupid. I can pick up any gun and shoot it all day and still know nothing about the rounds effectiveness.

- I think Fackler's conclusions hold more weight than a bunch of Backyard water jug and phonebook tests posted on fivesevenforums.com, and I am not sold on the "Dr. Fackler is in the pocket" conspiracy theory.

- A story about a one shot stop to the pelvis doesn't mean much either. I've heard plenty of stories about one shot stops with a 22lr too, but I am not sold on its effectiveness either.

- The 5.7 does not meet the FBI's minimum requirements for penetration. If you disagree with their requirements, then I tend to side with the FBI and not you.

- Fivesevenforums.com seems like they are full of a bunch of people that are trying to justify a purchase they have already made. They also think that when a bullet "tumbles", it is flipping over and over again in flesh. (lol)

- Fiveseven forums.com is the only place that I can find a positive review of the weapon. Everyone else seems to be disappointed. It's kind of like how people at topglock.com think that Glocks are god's gift to home defense.

In my searches, I couldn't see any 100% conclusive testing either way.

panzermk2
October 27, 2006, 12:27 PM
There once was a .357 SIG spin off called the BAZ or somesuch.

It would help if you actually knew what youíre talking about. It was the 10mm Based BOZ round that came out years before the 357SIG. It in part inspired the 5.7. The guns at the time chambered in it were destroyed due to the recoil impulse. Enter FN refine the design and create a blow back pistol that wonít be blown up

panzermk2
October 27, 2006, 12:41 PM
actualy certain versions of the round do keyhole/tumble. But then I'm sure these have been photoshopped to prove that piont


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/g4l20040720001.jpg

panzermk2
October 27, 2006, 12:44 PM
just another pic. I would if you can find the time show me where a 22lr or 22mag could do this to a crisat plate

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/balisticbodyarmorplate.jpg




Now its we started this forum to justify purchasing a 5.7. Funny when it first came out I looked at the specs, analyzed for myself and like the round. I just could not deal with the round trigger guard. The USG solved this.

There is allot to be said about the short comings of 38spl. But getting shot by one of Corbons HP would leave a mark. Not my kind of round but still effective

Teapot
October 27, 2006, 01:37 PM
Medula Oblongata, I have heard the same thing about large slow caliber rounds. At defeating layers of clothing the 5.7 should excell. Any fast round can do the same. I have mentioned it before but the Mauser round or the Soviet version or it, the 7.62x25 can attain speeds which enable it's steel cored bullet to penetrate layers of felt and denim. Call the Tokarev, with it's military ammunition, the poor man's 57.
Or load your own 45's or 357's or whatever,with saboted rounds. It is not the platform nor the casing thad does the work but the bullet. Proper bullet selection in any casing with whatever propellent capacity is the important factor.
It just so happens that FN came up with a hassel-free combination of pistol and ammunition.However after fifteen years on the market they have not really made their mark on the shooting public. This is not that their product is useless but because they stated that they intended the 5.7 family of weapons to be for military/LEO only. Only recently have they changed this policy and so only recently have the public been able to get their hands on them.
I want one myself but the money I have saved is earmarked for a stainless guide gun in 45-70 Government(would that round using Garretts' hammerhead load be enough to shatter a pelves Odd Job? Just kidding.That argument was only about semantics. A shot to the pelvis from any gun would put the BG on his posterior).

The 57 is a good carry gun for the winter when people are bundled up in layers and layers of fabric. And who knows what the BG's are wearing under their bulky jackets, Kevlar? Every specialist has his equipment and car-jackers are no exception.

SuperNaut
October 27, 2006, 02:01 PM
IMHO it is a ballsy move to design a handgun around the 5.7x28, especially in what is essentially the era of the 1911.

With something as new as this in a generally conservative market there is bound to be some controversy, this is healthy. I can't wait to try one out, unfortunately they are a rare as hen's teeth 'round here.

However, that FiveseveN had better shoot, because it is F'N ugly.

panzermk2
October 27, 2006, 02:15 PM
Part of FN's 5.7 slow start is for the longest time they ignored the civilain market for so long. The first IOM's were only sold to LEO departments. I never understud thier ignoring the civilian market for so long. They P90 has been around for years but they are just as of late coming out with the Civy PS90 and they are selling them to no end. I first read about the 5.7 in Janes for years before FN sold anything to the public.

Go Figure what goes through Corp. minds

NORTEXED
October 27, 2006, 02:16 PM
Medula Oblongata, I do not know the gun or round, I am very familiar with the 5.56 though. And this is not an attack on you or the weapon please rest assured, but doesn't the reduced velocity of the round in the handgun bring it into the realm of the M4 performance debate when they were used in Somalia with less than glowing effect against human targets? I know the reports from combat soldiers (1 is a personal friend who served in Desert Shield), was that there was a noticeable difference in terminal performance between the std 16 and the M4's. I have heard a lot of opinions from people I tend to trust though, that a lot of the M4's "short comings" (little joke there) was due to over stabilization of the projectile with the SS109 rounds. Theory being that the added velocity of the std barrel would cause the rounds to destabilize in soft tissue. I do realize that the 5.7 uses a lighter/shorter projectile, and I'm not sure what the twist rate of the pistols barrel is. Do you think this is the cause of more dynamic wound effect from this round?

panzermk2
October 27, 2006, 02:20 PM
NORTEXED the piont of the 5.7 is to replace the M9 berretta not the M4.
It is to give chopper pilots and drivers more fire power since in the current battlefield they stand as much of a chance of seeing combat as a line unit. The PS90 was designed to be no wider than the average soldiers shoulders so as to be on them and not get in the way as they do there jobs and not in the back of the truck when the SHTF

Again the 5.7 was never ment to replace the M4 the FN SCAR L and SCAR H are doing that:)

NORTEXED
October 27, 2006, 02:40 PM
I was just wondering if the lighter, shorter bullet, possibly slower twist rate, corrected some of the problems they had with the M4's. I did not mean to insinuate that the 5.7 in the pistol was a replacement for the M4, just wondering if they had gone back a step in bullet design to correct problems from a similiar round.

roscoe
October 27, 2006, 07:15 PM
It would be cool if someone made a compact pistol in 5.7 for CCW. I imagine 15 rounds is easy to get into a small package. Something slim with a 4" barrel.

rv77
October 27, 2006, 07:21 PM
I have shot it's like a 22 handgun but its sweet like a lot people say to rich for my blood plus the ammo is out of this world suck after they label it a cop killer bummer oh well sweet so light....
good luck

TimboKhan
October 27, 2006, 07:54 PM
MO,

Sorry buddy. Say what you want, but the Fiveseven is an ugly pistol. If you think it's cool, well, good for you. I have had to put up with listening to people for years calling my P90 ugly, and thanks to the FiveseveN, that abuse has tapered off.

On a different note, you have said repeatedly that this gun is being issued to all sorts of American agencies. I don't want to be argumentative, and I am not even calling you a liar, but I want to know what your sources on that info are. I ask because I have been googiling for the last 10 minutes trying to confirm what you said and I can't find anything that confirms it at all. However, just because I can't find it doesn't mean it's not true, so I would like to know your sources.

Teapot
October 27, 2006, 10:17 PM
Nothing wrong with the FN57. How could it be inadequate if Tom Clancy's Sam Fisher employs it as his main sidearm?

panzermk2
October 28, 2006, 10:29 PM
According to the slide rule guys at FN a compact version of the IOM/USG does not function correctly as shortning a blowback pistol drasticaly changes how it functions.

To the twist issue I believe M.O. would have the answer as he has spent a large amount of time developing all sort of custom loadings for the 5.7.

atblis
October 28, 2006, 10:52 PM
It works well in Counter Strike as well.

Styerwaytoheaven
October 28, 2006, 11:35 PM
Re: "...Sorry buddy. Say what you want, but the Fiveseven is an ugly pistol. If you think it's cool, well, good for you. I have had to put up with listening to people for years calling my P90 ugly, and thanks to the FiveseveN, that abuse has tapered off..."

The p90 IS ugly as hell; but it is still one of the coolest weapons ever! I guess I have a thing for ugly. Momma always told me that it's what's on the inside that counts.

Chindo18Z
October 29, 2006, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted: October 27th, 2006, 10:08 AM

Medula Oblongata: I have no dog in this debate and no valid opinion about this caliber...just trying to learn. I'll check out your recommended forum link.

That said, I have two questions:

1. Who in USSOCOM is using this pistol or this caliber?

2. Bullet yaw? Check...got it. But, how does the bullet achieve reliable fragmentation in flesh at 2000 fps vs. the 2700+ required (for example) for M193/M855 5.56?

Edited to Add Two More Questions:

3. Or...Does 5.7 FMJ even fragment after flesh penetration and subsequent yaw?

4. With comparable bullet weight and diameter, how dissimilar are FMJ 5.7 x 28 and 5.56 NATO projectiles (in terms of construction, jacketing, length, core, etc.)?

I'm just re-looking the concept after not paying much attention to 5.7 for the last couple of years. I'm interested in this caliber's performance as a pistol round...


__________________

NORTEXED
October 29, 2006, 04:58 PM
My inquiry was based on the assumption that the 5.57 was relying largely on yaw and tumble for wound characteristics. Most small caliber projectiles do for terminal wound effect (based on the assumption that the projectile is sturdy enough for serious penetration, and not designed to fragment). I know with the 5.56, the faster twist rates in the A1,A2,A3 are necessary to stabilize the heavier 62gr. bullets at the velocity attained in the 20" barrels. Projectile stability is a factor of balistic coef., twist rate, velocity, weight distribution in the projectile. It is all a balancing act, to twist the bullet fast enough to stabilize at "intended velocity", but not overstabilize it to the point that it pokes pencil holes in and out. This was the basis of the M4 debate, the shorter barrels "apparently" gave up enough initial velocity that the projectiles overstabilized, and gave up wound effect. While the old 1 in 12's did not stabilize the 62 gr's enough, with the 55's, they pitched and yawed easily in target and still maintained acceptable accuracy. The 9.5 twist seems fast for such a light 5.57 mm projectile, and would seem to "overstabilize" the projectiles and hurt wound effect. Once again, the age old struggle is to stabilize the projectile to obtain acceptable accuracy, but not so much as to give up wound effect. Am I off base?

Chindo18Z
October 29, 2006, 04:59 PM
Medulla Oblongata: Thanks for answering my questions.

Very informative and I found out what I needed to know.

loki.fish
October 30, 2006, 08:08 AM
I'm assuming the ballistic tip ones are the SS197's?

Have there been any tests done with the SS197's to see if they'd penetrate heavy winterlike clothing? If they cause such a violent wound channel, they'd be pretty ideal for self-defense rounds, but will they fragment early if hitting heavy clothing?

I just got home from a 12 hour shift, so if you can't understand what I'm saying, sorry.

M2 Carbine
October 30, 2006, 09:37 AM
Medula Oblongata,
I've searched but haven't been able to find the answer to this question, so I'll ask you here.

When sizing the brass the case coating causes the case to stick so bad in the die that I'm almost tearing off the case rim.
My normal sizing lubes don't help much.

This has brought my 5.7 reloading to a stand still because I don't want to wreck the little brass I have.

Do you know of a solvent, paint remover, etc that will remove the coating on the brass?

From what I understand the coating is necessary for the carbine but not the pistol.

M2 Carbine
October 30, 2006, 01:48 PM
I have RCBS dies and have been using Midway Spray N Lube for a long time sizing .223, 30.06, etc, with good results.
The 5.7 is sticking bad though. I even tried other oils that I had around, with no luck.

It just so happens I'm into RC models and I have a pint of Castor Oil in the shop.
I tried sizing about 15 cases.
Works good.:)

I'll also give the Hornady 1shot and Lee resizing lube a try.

Thanks.:)

Stinkyshoe
October 30, 2006, 02:00 PM
MO
To have loaded and shot 45K rounds of 5.7, how many years have you been shooting the 5.7? Just in the Hanedgun, or in the rifle too?
Thanks
Ss

panzermk2
October 30, 2006, 03:06 PM
Awhile back some asked about what tip was the SS197. This should help


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/ammotypes.jpg

Stinkyshoe
October 30, 2006, 07:30 PM
MO,
Wow! That's a lot of shooting! That's great! I doubt I've shot that many 22 LR in my life so far (but I am not too old, maybe I can catch up...)
How many loadings can you get out of one piece of brass? Do you get all your brass from the originally fired round that you buy or from other people too? What is your favorite load? Are you taper crimping your rounds? I assume you are using some sort of progressive system...?
The owners manual on the 5.7 pistol says it's affective to 55 yards (50m). Do you have much experience from longer distance shootin of the 5.7? What's it like? Did the Jarvis barrel improve that accuracy and long distances?

Thanks Again,
Ss

Stinkyshoe
October 30, 2006, 08:38 PM
That's cool man. I hear ya. I'll join the forum soon and ask to my hearts content (but use the search function first :p )

Later,
Ss

Curare
October 31, 2006, 11:15 AM
Until recently I was shooting between 2 and 3k per week between 45 and 5.7

Don't ask...

At the low end (2000 rds/wk of only .45), that's $200/wk ($10/50) or roughly $10000 on ammo a year.

At the high end (3000 rds/wk of only 5.7), that's $720/wk ($18/50) or roughly $36000 on ammo a year.

Your department has a large enough budget to spend $10000-$36000 a year on one officer's ammo budget?

Are you exagerating a bit here, or is this another "destroyed" pelvis?

panzermk2
October 31, 2006, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Until recently I was shooting between 2 and 3k per week between 45 and 5.7

Don't ask...
At the low end (2000 rds/wk of only .45), that's $200/wk ($10/50) or roughly $10000 on ammo a year.

At the high end (3000 rds/wk of only 5.7), that's $720/wk ($18/50) or roughly $36000 on ammo a year.

Your department has a large enough budget to spend $10000-$36000 a year on one officer's ammo budget?

Are you exagerating a bit here, or is this another "destroyed" pelvis?

The only person full of it is you. exaggerating correct spelling, that was the word used by the Dr. Don't like it look up the court records and contact the doctor.

MO Hand loads most all of the ammo he shoots instead of watching survivor or TV. Please feel free to tell Me were you want to meet so you can call my friend a liar to my face.

Stinkyshoe
October 31, 2006, 12:11 PM
Curare,
You seem like you want to attack someone. Previously, MO and the other gentlemen who is a Xray expert discussed the pelvis thing and seemed to conclude that this was a case of semantics more than anything. I believe that was settled a while ago, so there is no need stir the pot(unless you like getting messing) As far as the ammo thing goes, I believe MO previously mentioned that he can reloaded 5.7 for $8/100 and he can likely load 45 acp for around $7/100 cause thats about what it costs me to reload it (negating the price of brass). So if he were to shoot 1000rds of 45 and 1000 rds of 5.7 on a normal week, we are looking at $150/per week. That's probably a little more than I could afford being a poor college boy, but a professional man on sallary with some extra cash could probably do that for a while. (I must say that I am green with envy for someone who can shoot that much! ) I don't believe he implied he did this for week after week, because he said he has 45K through the FN. So obviously for a while the intensity of his training increased, and his claim is certainly feasible.

Stephen A. Camp
October 31, 2006, 12:38 PM
Name calling is not permitted on THR. If it just must be done, go to the PM's or other methods.

If you enjoyed reading about "FN 5.7 Handgun" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!