[OEF_VET]

At least, I think it's a 5-screw, possibly Victory Model?

I found it the other day in a local pawn shop, it was originally priced at $299, then marked down to $269. I was able to get it for $250 plus tax and $10 TBI check.

What I was wondering is if one of ya'll could help me figure out roughly when it may have been made, and help decipher the markings on it.

The serial number is 465xxx. Under the barrel, it is marked as follows: .38" (obviously caliber) .767", next line is the s/n, third line is: 3 1/2 tons. In front of all that is a small crown with the letters 'BNP' underneath it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Frank

[Mike Irwin]

Sounds like it's actually a Pre Victory model, in that the serial number doesn't start with V.

You are taking the number off the butt? It appears that you're talking about a serial number from the barrel, and that's not the guns serial number -- the true serial number should be on the butt of the gun.

Without that number I can't tell you exactly when it was made, but it was sometime between 1940 and 1946.

The fact that you don't mention it being marked "United States Property" anywhere indicates that it was made after US entry into WW II.

The 3 1/2 tons marking is the British Nitro Proof mark.

I'm not sure what the .767 means, but it's a common mark, and it MAY refer to the chamber length, but I think the .380-200 case was just a bit longer.

There should also be a small mark that looks like a crown with BNP under it. That goes with the 3 1/2 tons and stands for British Nitro Proof.

The serial number appears to be quite low, though, for a .380-200.

[Old Fuff]

We need a lot more information here. Is this revolver chambered in .38 S&W or .38 Special? How long is the barrel? What kind of finish? Checkered or plain unchecked stocks? Does it have a lanyard swivel on the butt?

If you are right about the serial number I think it might be a 1905 Hand Ejector/Military & Police model that was a commercial gun which was shipped to England prior to World War Two.

[Mike Irwin]

Fluff,

I considered that, but one thing makes me thing that it's NOT chambered for .38 Spl...

The ".767" marking on the barrel.

I have ONLY ever seen that mark on .380-200 revolvers, and no other American-made British revolver.

I'm really thinking that it was a British designation for the case length.

[allanschisel]

A Victory model would have a V prefix in the serial number located on the frames butt (also under the barrel and on the cylinder). It would also have the top of the frame marked US Property. A 38/200 "lend lease" would lack the V prefix. Some have the US Property stamp, but most I've seen don't. I've seen them with and without Great Britain acceptance stamps. Both would be chambered for 38S&W which should be stamped on the right side of the barrel as "38 S&W CTG" I don't know what the ".767" would mean. That's no measurement for a 38spl. The 38/200 I have here in front of me now has a 4 3/4" barrel (5" if I knew how to measure it correctly).
Allan Schisel

[Old Fuff]

Allan,

You're right to a point, but all 38-200 revolvers were not "Victory Models." S&W started making these in 1940 using commercial serial numbers in the 1905 Hand Ejector/4th Change series starting in the 700,000 range. The revolver-in-question "may be" in the 465,000 range which would seem too early for the .38-200 contracts. However stranger things have happened. This is why we need more information.

I think Mike is right. The number ".767" is the cartridge (.38 S&W) case length.

[OEF_VET]

Unfortunately, the gun is at the pawn shop still on layaway.

Mike Irwin

The serial number on the barrel is the same one on the butt of the weapon.

Old Fluff

The weapon has a nickel finish, checkered grips, and no lanyard swivel, the barrel is 2 3/8".

Other than the markings I listed earlier, the only markings on it are the S&W logo and "MADE IN THE U.S.A." on the right side. The only markings related to caliber are the .38" and .767".

From the posts here, I gather the weapon was produced sometime around WW2, and sent to the Brits, which was what I initially thought might be the case. I guess the biggest question is just what caliber ammo is it chambered for, and if it is for some obscure ammo, where can I get hold of some?

Thanks for all your help.
Frank

[LWCmdr45]

The 465,xxx serial number, if accurate, was definitely manufactured pre-WWII, but many revolvers were bought "off the shelf" in the opening days of the European conflict by British representatives in the U.S. who were hungry for anything they could lay their hands on. If it's a pre-war gun, it was originally chambered in .38 Special and modified by the Brits (per the .767" marking, which is the case length of the .38-200) for use with their standard .380 Mk. II (aka, .38-200 or .38S&W) ammo. Or, perhaps more likely, it *is* a .38-200 Victory Model and someone neglected to note the "V" serial number prefix, mistaking it for an unrelated inspection/proof marking. On many V.M.'s, there is a distinct gap between the "V" and the digits; on some, the "V" is stamped on one side of the lanyard hole and the digits on the other, so it's easy to do. If it is (was?!) a Victory Model, it would have had "U.S. PROPERTY," the initials of the inspector and various U.S. proof/acceptance marks stamped on the top strap, but these markings were sometimes ground off in the course of modifying for surplus sale.

The various barrel markings (.38", .767", 3 1/2 TONS, crown/BNP) are POST-WAR markings applied after 1955 prior to the gun being sold from British inventory. Many of these surplus guns had their barrels cut from the standard 5" length to snub-nosed configuration, stocks changed and nickle plating applied (especially on those that had U.S. markings ground off). Note that even if this gun was originally chambered for the British .38-200 (.38 S&W) cartridge, it may have been "rechambered" (reamed out) to accept .38 Specials. Firing guns so modified is generally considered to be an unwise practice as they will almost certainly cause split cases due to the oversized diameter of the chambers.

Steve

[Old Fuff]

I suspect what we have is a S&W 38-200 Brit. service revolver from World War Two. Someone removed the lanyard loop and plugged the hole, cut the barrel back (in which case the lug to lock the ejector rod is gone), remounted the front sight, and nickel plated the result. It may also have been rechambered to .38 Special, and if so it's ruined as a shooter - unless you want to put up with split cases. In the process of refinishing part of the serial number may have been removed. I think this is a good gun not to buy unless you can get it checked out by someone who is very knowledgeable about older Smiths.

[OEF_VET]

Thanks gentlemen. I think I may be changing my mind on it, as it seems there may be more problems than it'll be worth. Maybe I'll use the money to pick up the Yugo SKS the evil voices in my head are telling me I need.

Frank