[The Real Hawkeye]

This seems like precisely the time when these discussions need to be given some room to develop. I think it would be wrong-headed to automatically close all discussions of the principles of liberty as we approach the election season. The Moderator in question suggested we instead contribute to the "millions" of other threads on the topic, but scanning the recent threads, I see none. Do we need to search old archives to find one that's already five pages long?

I hope that this new pattern at The High Road is quickly corrected, and we return to a forum for open discussion of these very important issues. Moderators should not allow their political biases to interfere with these.

[Rezin]

I agree. Perhaps THR would consider an slightly "off the gun topic" forum. I would love to discuss many things with my THR friends, but they are always promptly closed......

[Henry Bowman]

I agree. Perhaps THR would consider an slightly "off the gun topic" forum. I would love to discuss many things with my THR friends, but they are always promptly closed......Already done. See http://www.armedpolitesociety.com There is a stick at the top of the General Gun Discussions forum page.

[ZeSpectre]

Don't know if the moderators would go for it but on other forums I regularly attend they have at least one section for a limited amount of "off topic" stuff.

Often called "the cafe" for a sort of informal meeting place and I've often been amazed at how often a "cafe" thread will spawn multiple related ON topic conversations.

[Zundfolge]

Already done. See http://www.armedpolitesociety.com There is a stick at the top of the General Gun Discussions forum page.

[sm]

1. Problem with Moderator closing a thread, contact that Moderator by PM.

2. Off topic : http://www.armedpolitesociety.com

3. Start your own forum.

[ZeSpectre]

whups, I was typing my reply and hadn't seen the screen refresh.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Was there something that was especially complicated about "If you still feel the need to complain about it, the proper forum to do so is Tech Support?"

THR is an open forum. If you don't like it, you can search out a forum where the discussion is more to your tastes. Hell, the admin and owner of THR have even created EXACTLY THAT FORUM and stickied its address to the top of the L&P forum.

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

forums of any type end up in this predicament.

-A forum usually exists on a topical basis. The problem arises when the membership community begin to gel, and form a mini social community.

-The conversations drift.

-The forum, not realizing what it's doing, begins adding subsections, until the site is almost navigably idiotic.

-A Mod gets mad, nukes the peripheral subsections, bans threads on subject "X".

-start over.

LOL

[BigG]

I'm not in the mood to read the same threadbare arguments as to why we who try to maintain the status quo are shortsighted, stupid, and enabling the slippage to h-ell, and the self congratulatory backslapping among the half dozen members who claim to be registered libs. :neener:

But you guys do what you want to do, subject to moderator oversight. :)

[Correia]

I often think that we could condense about 90% of L&P into one single post that said:

Your politcial party sucks. You suck for disagreeing with me. Here is why I'm smarter than you. (insert reason)

Then we would just repeat small variants of that post over and over and over again, for ten pages. Then we would ban half a dozen people for being morons. Then we would start a new thread.

The other 10% of L&P would be people talking about, oh, I don't know, actual topics that pertain to the RKBA, and organizing, and stuff like that. You know, crazy talk.

[.38 Special]

I dunno. Maybe it's the time I've spent at hardcore political websites, but the folks here at THR seem like a really great bunch to me. I can't recall having seen a single thing that would even "toe the line" at even fairly rigorously moderated political BBSs. It'd actually be a bit hard for me to imagine most of these folks having a genuine flame war with each other.

Really, I've been a bit surprised on several occasions to see the moderator responses to what seemed a pretty mild political conversation:

Poster "A": "Well, I guess the Republicans aren't really Republicans any more."

Poster "B": "Nope. I'm still a Republican and I think they're still great."

Poster "A": "How can you say that? The Repubs are spending like drunken sailors!"

Poster "B": Well, I guess I see how you'd think that, but they're still better than Democrats."

Moderator: "I'm shutting this thread down! I've never seen such offensive language in my whole life! Why don't you guys go some place where they welcome this kind of racist dreck!?!"

Okay, well, that's a bit over dramatized, but you get the picture. :)

[Correia]

.38, usually the ones we jump in and clamp down fast are in topics that we know with 100% surety will go south, or involve certain posters who we all know and love, where it is like listening to a piano concerto, where the piano only has one key.

Plus you don't get to see all the threads we delete. Trust me, we've had plenty of flamefests. You just don't see them because of all the shallow graves we've got out behind the woodshed.

[.38 Special]

Aye, and that's the closest thing you'll see to a complaint about moderation from me. It's a great bunch of folks here and a great place. You guys look to have stumbled onto the secret.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Moderator in question suggested we instead contribute to the "millions" of other threads on the topic, but scanning the recent threads, I see none. Do we need to search old archives to find one that's already five pages long

Just from the first page at this particular time, here are threads mentioning Libertarians or libertarian philosophy prominently:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218137 (stickied to top of forum)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=230436
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229779
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=230248

All of these posts were on the front page when you made your post. I was able to find them with a quick scan in about 7 minutes total. Did you spend that much time giving me or the other mod the benefit of the doubt before you posted (in the wrong forum no less) to complain?

[xd9fan]

dont worry ART will shut them down...

[Correia]

Art Eatman's about the most patient L&P moderator I've ever seen.

Would you prefer for me to do it?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Frankly you are lucky Art has the patience to sit there day after day and keep closing threads from people who can't understand the rules (or who just don't care what the rules are). If it were me, I'd start tossing the people who couldn't figure out the rules were - particularly the ones who have had the rules explained to them personally and still don't get it.

[sm]

Well on campus I told some folks that kept pushing for whom I was voting for, I was voting for Pat Paulson for President and Charles Shultz for Vice President.

Then I walked off. This had better results than the time I told the religious sect, hounding folks at the mall, asking folks what religion they were, and ready with "programmed answers" - I was Anti-Atheist and kept walking.

Politics is sometimes like asking a lady her age - folks don't really want to know the age, just curious if the lady will reply at all to being asked.

Maybe need a Subforum for all us of Voting for Paulson and Shultz ;)

...walks off with that thought lingering in the air....

[GRB]

Is there some major transgression commited when someone talks about libertarian ideals related to firearms?

I only started using thisn site again recently but I already have seen that it is more restrictive than before on such things, and it seems a lot more Christian philosophy has been allowed into posts.

Is this site becoming a right wing mecca for only those of the Christian belief system?

By the way, those are all real questions, no wise guy stuff. This thread really got me to wondering along with a ferw I saw over the past few days.

Thanks,
Glenn B

[Derek Zeanah]

Is this site becoming a right wing mecca for only those of the Christian belief system?Well, I ain't Christian, and I'm either uber-right-wing or a damn leftie (depending on who you ask), and it's running on my harware.

I dare you to try and get Oleg going in a theological debate -- he ain't wired that way, from what I can tell. ;)

[GRB]

I asked a couple of respectful questions so as to learn some more about the site. I did not expect to get some kind of a dare as an answer; so let me just say I am not looking to play games with the site owners. I asked to find out, not to debate or to deride or anything liken that. Just curious for my own satisfaction.

I take it though that you don't think this site slanted toward Christian beliefs or philosophy; and I appreciate the answer. I kind of like to dicuss guns here, and the issues around them without getting sidetracked into to many other issues like religion. As to the libertarian thing, I would have thought it appropriate here as the libertarian ideals applied to firearms ownership, but I guess it is not for some reason. Is there a sticky explaining this?

Thank you.:)


Best regards,
GB

[Derek Zeanah]

That's not an easy question.

I think "gun rights" is something you find more interest in with "right-wing" groups, which tends to mean "a higher % than normal of Christians, generally of the 'born-again' protestant variety." And lately, there's been more of a Christian Nationalist mood growing in the country, which we're seeing in these sorts of issues as well.

So you get a bit of a conflict. There are those (like me) who wanna be left alone and maximize their own personal freedom, who are willing to let others be free to seek their own happiness. Then there are those who see gun rights as important, but have much more authoritarian views on what others should be allowed to do.

It's a difficult balance. The "I'll shove my idea down your throat until you choke on it" types from both sides have been banned, and we've lost some good folks, but it's resulted in a better board.

[sm]

Serious answer.

I agreed to THR's Rules of Conduct upon becoming a member.
http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

We have learned from bitter experience that discussions of abortion, religion and sexual orientation often degenerate into less-than-polite arguments or claims that "my God is better than your God". For this reason, we do not discuss such subjects on THR, and any threads dealing primarily with these subjects will be closed or deleted immediately. Threads which deal with other subjects, but which mention abortion, religion or sexual orientation as a side issue, may be allowed to continue, but will be closely scrutinized, and closed or deleted if they "cross the line".

A note on FREE SPEECH:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The First Amendment is greatly respected here on The High Road, as are all other Amendments that the Second Amendment defends. However, The High Road is private property and requests that members adhere to all forum policies. It is a contract agreed to by all who become members of The High Road. Those who break forum rules cannot invoke censorship or freedom of speech - a contract broken is a contract broken. If you do not like the rules of conduct or the acceptable topics, seek out a new venue to frequent or start your own board.

If you feel you can abide by these requests, we hope that you join us on The High Road. We invite you to share your expertise and enjoy the camaraderie. "Share what you know, learn what you don't."

Thank you,

The Staff

I agreed to these rules of conduct , the requests of the owner of this site [Oleg], and use my personal set of ethics, morals and civility , along with common sense and Internet Etiquette.
I make mistakes, I do not deny making mistakes.

It does not matter if the subject is of Political Parties, Party Affiliations, if a Anti-Gunner comes to THR seeking information, to debate about candidates or views - to me.

Right are Rights - period. THR is a venue, where it makes not one whit,who, what or anything else- if one just follows the ROC, uses common sense, Internet Etiquette and stays Civil during forum participation

Off topic subjects, as outlined in ROC, for reasons stated in ROC, should be discussed elswhere such as APS.

Moderation at THR is great. If one is not sure about a Topic, especially during such times as Political Seasons , where emotions run high - PM the Mod of L&P, or any other Staff, just ask. Staff will not bite, instead assist, seriously, I am not the only one that has, and will continue to do so.

There is something said about getting new folks interested in something by Attraction instead of Promotion. Kids rebel when "told" to do something. If a kid sees something interesting by someone being civil, nice, answering a few questions, they are often "attracted" to that idea and more receptive in applying to themselves.

Meaning, you want to Attract someone to your side, act respectable, be civil, listen to the other side. That someone is more likely to listen to your views out of common respect and courtesy as well.

One teaches others how to treat them - by how they treat others.


Steve

[Michigander]

The hemogeny of THR in regards to L&P type discussions, has driven me away for the most part. It is kind of scary on a certain level.

There is a very narrow lane of "acceptable" beliefs, mostly slightly to the left side of the Republican spectrum (or at least Republican in as much as what most "conservative" THR members want to believe the Republican ideals are, but are now only supposed to be, or perhaps used to be, because the results are obviously hardly Republican at all) and overlapping, barely, with a touch of the libertarian ideals.

Stick with that ideology and you'll be patted on the back with regularity. Bring in a different view and be pushed aside by posters who, sometimes seemingly on purpose, force your thread into the dumps with rhetoric and ridicule, or moderators who just lock the thread "because there's been too many of those threads," even though it is on topic (how much more on-topic can one be in L&P but to strike up a conversation about the Libertarian Party and their platform concerning firearms?).

I still read THR from time to time. Used to be the first place I visited, now I only visit when I run out of others places and I get bored.

I truly believe in a human's inalienable right to keep and bear arms and I am passionate about it. However, I do not shoot a whole lot and I do not buy, sell and trade in firearms . . . I have what I have and I am happy with that and so I am not very active in the buying, selling, trading or general guns discussions, etc. But whenever I have any kind of general or technical question about firearms, THR is my first point of entry on the internet. As such a resource, I do not believe there is much better out there.

Do not misunderstand me, I am truly grateful for the opportunity Oleg has given us and for the truly great contribution THR has done for our RKBA. And for the most part the moderators do a bang-up job.

And as many have said, if you don't like it, go somewhere else. . . . So, for the most part, I have.

[RealGun]

The issues that really control politics are actually forbidden topics. What's left is to stick to those issues that very much relate to gun ownership. Those who think that L&P is a general politics forum are simply ignoring the guidelines.

[Art Eatman]

Michigander, I don't care what anybody's belief is. Absolutely unimportant to me. What I care about is how the beliefs are expressed. First off is that the phrasing and word usage doesn't offend anybody's preacher or grandmother. Or wife or daughter.

IOW, courtesy and politeness. We're discussing, not yelling and screaming like little kids. Next is staying on topic. Sure, a little thread drift happens and is no big deal, but when pages three through six ignore the original startup subject, I'm gonna close the thread.

You'll sometimes see where I've soft-deleted a post for "Noise, no signal". That's because whatever idea--if any--that was posted was not at all germane to the thread. (And, often, because it high-jumped over my tolerance threshold for terminal stoopid.)

But I don't close a thread because of a liberal idea or a libertarian idea or what-the-heck-ever idea, so long as it was within the website rules for topicality.

And I've jumped on folks with whom I was in full agreement, because they violated the basic rules of courtesy and politeness.

As long as folks act like grownups, I'm real easy to get along with...

:), Art

[Michigander]

Art, all those things you have just stated about why you will close a thread or delete a particular post, is not what I was addressing; excepting for the thread that a moderator (not you IIRC) closed about the Libertarian Party and it's stance on firearms simply because there have been too many of such threads. Again, that thread could not have been more on-topic in L&P.

In many cases, in L&P, the starter of a thread is well within the accepted guidlines of topics and uses no foul language and is looking for serious discussion about something, etc. Then the snide remarks, ridicule, and such begin by some of the other "accepted" members, and sometimes even moderators, and the topic sprials into the abyss of noise. Ultimately to be closed.

If the libertarians, Libertarians, and Democrats are going to be "squeezed" out, what is left?

What is left is the "unofficially" strict, "unoficially" confined, "unoffically" limited political viewpoints "allowed" to be expressed.

[RealGun]

Those who cannot accept any form of authority in anything will never be happy.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've got to say Michigander that I am just not seeing a stifling of Libertarian oriented discussion. If anything, I see it brought up in just about every thread in L&P where it can remotely be applicable.

As to reduced civility and snide remarks, I certainly see what you are talking about there; but I disagree that it is limited to just Libertarian posts. I see it prominently in about every discussion in L&P and even in Technical forums like Rifles.

I'd love to see that reduced; but one of the first steps to tackling that problem will be cutting down on offensensitivity (thanks to Berke Breathed for an apropos word). It is easy to troll, intentionally or otherwise, in an enivronment where people are guaranteed to interpret any ambiguity as an insult.

To use the subject of this thread as an example, I think we would have seen a different and far better outcome for everyone if the person who posted the second thread had instead made a well-reasoned PM to the mod questioning the action.

[Art Eatman]

Many thread on many different subjects begin with a good post. Responses vary from really good discussion to wretched yuck. It is way too often that a thread will degenerate to nothing at all worthwhile. After a page or so of garbage, or where the majority of responses are unacceptable, I'll regretfully close the thread.

I have more time than most to moderate, but trying for perfection--e.g., deleting all OT or all abusive posts--would be a full-time job. It just can't be done.

Art

[Outlaws]

I just know a lot of threads get closed for seemingly no real reason. :scrutiny:

[Outlaws]

The description of the "politics" section:
Get informed on issues affecting the right to keep and bear arms and other civil rights. Coordinate activism, debate with allies and opponents. Discuss laws concerning firearm ownership, concealed carry and self-defense.

Thats why the subject of this thread should not be auto-closed.

[bender]

APS can't exactly be called an "off-topic" THR forum. It's a separate board, where you have to register separately...

I'm not complaining... just sayin'.... :)