[Nightcrawler]

Let's imagine for a moment that for whatever reason, the only ammunition available to you was Full Metal Jacket, Lead Semi Wadcutter, Lead Round Nose, and similar rounds (let's say you signed on to the Hague Convention, LOL). No JHP. No Soft Points. No Expanding Full Metal Jacket. Just hardball, AP, and lead.

Would it change what you carry? I don't think it'd affect my handgun choices too much; expanding bullets or no, .45ACP, .45 Colt, and .41 Magnum all make pretty big holes to begin with.

But how would your carry weapons selection be effected? Would you carry +P FMJ ammo? Would you carry flat-pointed ammo?

[Tamara]

Nah.

I'd still carry a .45 on my belt, a .44 in my purse, and a .380/.38 Spl in my pocket. Pass the semiwadcutters, please.

[Nightcrawler]

You know, if I were carrying a .380, I might opt for FMJ ammunition anyway. I'd feel better about it being able to reliably penetrate a frontal skull plate of a person, or enter from the side of the torso and go deep enough to hit something important. *shrug*

I guess I'm not one of the big "load selection guys".

[Tamara]

I'd feel better about it being able to reliably penetrate a frontal skull plate

Funny, that's the reason I prefer JHP's in little guns. It seems to me that round nose bullets that meet rounded surfaces (like a rib or the bad guy's melon) would be more likely to skid off, where as something blunt in front may have a better chance to "bite" and penetrate. I don't buy them with magic expansion in mind, although if they do, I won't complain. *shrug*

(147gr +P+ HydraShoks in my J-frame and 90gr Ranger SXT's in my .380 currently because... well... it's what I have on hand. ;) )

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

When I was a consultant to the Los Angeles Police Department on their reloading systems it was interesting that the county sheriffs were allowed hollow point ammo but Los Angeles officers were only allowed round nose bullets. The theory was that the LA officers came into closer contact with crowds and being more likely to have their weapons taken from them and shot with their own ammo, a round nose would cause less damage than a hollow point and the LA officers being closer to hospitals were more likely to survive. (In the middle of a riot??)

I was in the first Watts Riots and was Glad I was with another department that was only called out once as backup.

John Paul

[Landric]

Howdy,

My primary off-duty carry gun is a HK USP45 Compact, so if I was limited to non-JHP ammo, I would go with plain jane 230 grain FMJ instead of my 230 grain Gold Dot JHP.

My backup is a S&W 342PD, so if limited to non-JHP, I would go with a 158 grain LSWC, or switch to the 642 and use a LSWC(+P).

I carry 71 grain FMJ in my P32 anyway, so no effect there.

It would really hurt my duty gun though a S&W 6946(GAG!) 9mm. I guess I would go with NATO 124 grain ball, at least I could shoot through stuff, and I don't trust lead bullets in a semi-auto when my life is on the line.

For the .40S&W pistols a sometimes carry, I would go with 180 grain FMJ FP I suppose.

[Mike Irwin]

I'd still likely carry a .38 or .357, just with SWCs.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd carry some handloads with 255 grain keith type bullets in my .45. just to be different.

[Blueduck]

My 357's would stay with a nice sharp shouldered semi-wadcutters replacing the current HP's. I prefer my HP loads but would not feel too bad about it. On the other hand auto wise I'd have to say my 9mm's WOULD get swapped in for 45's pretty quick.

Wouldn't mess with +P rounds, but likely would try to find some nice flat tip ammo that fed well.

Then again if I was bound only by the Hague Convention I could carry a lightweight commander in 45 super and shoot 80 grain zinc bullets at 2400 fps and noone could say a thing ;)

[badgerrr]

Wouldn't effect me a bunch either.

45LC Man, you see.

And when I use a .38 or 357 it is usually throwing a hard, lead, flat nosed SWC.

(I'd miss being able to toss in a good 125 JHP into the 357, when I felt like it, though)

:D

[sm]

Change-Nope.

My carry guns have always been 45 ACP, 9mm and .38 spl. I used FMJ, Hard cast SWC's...before the newer loading of today were available.
Brief use of 44 spl, 20 yrs ago , again I used a HC SWC.

Boils down to gun reliable with ammo, shot placement...with luck thrown in.

[boing]

Don't put much stock in must-have-expansion. A hole is a hole.

I already like 1911s, anyway, but ball in my P11 would be fine, too.

It's just holes.

[Jim March]

Yes, it would have one effect: I wouldn't trust either the 22Mag or 38Spl near as much.

My top choice would be a strong 357 (GP100/Blackhawk class) firing fully jacketed full wadcutters as fast as I could get them hauling. 1,500+ FPS if possible. That's a rare projectile, but I've seen them as loaded ammo, dunno about components. If I couldn't score those, I'd take hardcast 158grain Keiths and cut the whole nose off, should be around 140grains, get that up around 1,600fps for a similar "big splash effect".

Somebody (Magsafe?) tried coming out with a "New Jersey Special" load for...38Spl+P if I recall...this was some years back. They jacketed an *aluminum* slug(!) and got it up past 2,000fps from a snub! It sucked past 25 yards or so, naturally, but at across-the-room ranges it could really screw somebody up :).

[Ala Dan]

as I simply would fill my SIG-Sauer P220A up
with the "230 grain hard-ball" ammunition.:) :rolleyes:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[CZF]

Since hundreds of people die from 9mm FMJ each year around
the world. whether it be in wars or police action shooting..
or self defense. 9mm works..i know it can't be true, but it
does.

I'd rather have 16 rounds of Hardball in my gun than 5 jhps
in a snubby.


Having been restricted from carrying 'dum-dum' bullets.
I cheated and carried 9mm Glasers..

Seems that one of today's best stoppers is what??

a .355 bullet @ 1,450 fps..kinda what Marshal found out
years ago when ISP started racking up an impressive
number of One Shot Stops with the dynamic new +P+
load.

For 9mm Hardball ( if i can't use my Sentry +P or Gold -Dots)
i'll opt for the 124 gr NORMA..what a blast!!

Shot placement is what really counts. With a hi-cap 9mm
you get many chances to make an impression:)

[Soap]

Full size 1911 in .45 ACP for me still.

[Freightman]

Would not carry anything that didn't start with a 4. No wouldn't change a thing as I don't carry anything that doesn' start with a 4 any how.

[Black_Talon]

As the old saying goes "the 45ACP comes pre-expanded" so I wouldn't have to change anything.

45ACP 230gr Hardball for me after the hollow-point ban. :)

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

I'd be contempt with 15 rounds of 9mm NATO

[Quintin Likely]

I supposed I'd break down and buy something in .45 auto...230 gr ball, please.

[Dobe]

I sometimes carry 230 hardball anyway.

[Shaughn Leayme]

FMJ only?

45 ACP 1911A1

200 trunctuated cone +P
230 trunctuated cone or RN standard or +P

It's not what you shoot them with but where you shoot them:scrutiny:

[P95Carry]

For the P97 I am switching over too (until full summer carry is necessary) ... then FMJ no big deal.

For summer snub tho .... I'll switch to my home cast and loaded 158 swc's!

[Standing Wolf]

I'd pack jacketed hollow points, anyway.

[Freightman]

O I forgot to say I have a new revolver it is a Taurus in 45 Colt. just finished putting 150 rds through it some loaded very hot I am in love with it. 2" barrel 28 oz's

[Majic]

Well I only carry either a 1911 or a .38sp, so a FMJ in the .45acp or a SWC in the .38sp would do just fine for me.

[Preacherman]

It would certainly affect my choices to some extent... I sometimes carry .357 Magnum revolvers (just 'cause I like them!). In solid ammo., they would be a LOT less effective as stoppers, so they would be relegated to backup duty and/or training guns. Similarly, my 9mm. handguns (mostly used for training, and carried occasionally) would now become exclusively training guns.

My usual semi-auto carry is .40 S&W. No change here - I'd switch to a solid, and go on using it. It's so close to .45 hardball that the difference is probably statistically insignificant. I'd also carry .45's more than I do at present.

[Dorrin79]

I currently like 9mm.

If I had to use non-JHP I'd probably get a .45ACP of some sort.

tangent - would this theoretical state of affairs preclude carrying, say, EFMJ? If not, I'd stick with what I have, since EFMJ is my round of choice anyway.

[Missouri Mule]

Not really!

My 1911's perform most excellently with .45 hardball.
Not only that my Makarovs were made to handle fmj's flawlessly.

I do strongly prefer HP's for defensive purposes but fmj's will do the job too!:neener:

[surfinUSA]

40 S&W
45 ACP
357 JSP

[Majic]

A Jacketed Soft Point is an expandable bullet. They don't expand as much as a hollowed point, but the exposed lead nose does deform upon impact.

[blades67]

Would having to use non-expanding ammo change what handguns you prefer?


Nope.

[Dr.Rob]

Lets see....

In .357 a 158gr swc would be fine.

In .45 230fmj ball has worked for years.

I'm not sure I would carry my 9mm unless I could get +p rated fmj.

[foghornl]

Hmmmm
No hollow-point ammo, or reversed hollow-bade wadcutters, etc...

Would stick to the 1911-A1 in .45ACP hardball, or maybe switch to a 45 Colt revo with a lead 250-260 Gr semi-wadcutter as fast as I could get it moving. Maybe even a jacketed soft-point in the 45 Colt loadings

[Prodigalshooter]

I'd have to opt for the .45ACP ball ammo.

[22luvr]

I'd probably stay with my J-frame and shoot 158 gr LRN's (lead round nose) out of it. A pretty heavy round that usually deforms or flattens out somewhat on contact. Historically, a fairly effective stopper.

[cratz2]

Nope... I currently carry a Kahr 9mm on the belt and a P32 in the pocket and until recently carried either a 45ACP 5" 1911 or a 38 Super 4.25" 1911. I think FMJs in any of them would be adequate for serious shooting.

[CaesarI]

I'd still shoot my puny 9mm thanks. I've a lot of confidence in my placement, and little confidence in any bullets.

-Morgan

[22luvr]

What model is your 9mm Kahr? K9? MK9? Also, what sort of belt holster do you carry it in?

I'm still mulling over the possibility of getting an MK9 and carrying it on a belt holster with untucked shirts during the summer months. I keep coming back to the MK9, which fits my hand like it was custom-made and I like the strength, durability, and reliability of the all-steel construction.

If I decide to do this, it will be my first foray into not carrying in-the-pocket.

[mrmeangenes]

You've just described New Jersey's gun laws to a "T" :
nothing with soft point, hollowpoint; nothing that will expand reliably. ( This INCLUDES the time-honored .22 LR ! )

Sold lead, or FMJ - take your pick...Oh, yeah : God help you if you actually defend yourself with anything that can be construed by anyone as a weapon !

Prepare for " crucifixion " if the weapon you choose is a firearm of any sort ...:cuss::fire:

[Nightcrawler]

I think that, for a military, full metal jacket is the best choice anyway. It penetrates; you WANT penetration in combat. Bad guys hide behind stuff, you know.

That's why the military switched from 55 grain to the 62 grain SS109 5.56mm ammo. The coveted fragmentation, that people say makes the 5.56mm round super-lethal while over-penetrating less than a pistol, is actaully a detriment in combat, as a round that fragments in a person or several layers of drywall will also likely fragment in the tree the badguy is hiding behind, or his armor, or other light cover.

But, for personal defense, a JHP might be preferable if only to reduce the chance of overpenetration. (Another solution is to use very light bullets; even if they're moving fast, a light bullet has less momenthum than a heavy one and tends to lose velocity more quickly. Just look at the typical 100 yard velocities for 9mm 115 grain and .45ACP 230 grain; 9mm loses velocity more quickly.)

[Sean Smith]

I imagine that somebody woud notice if you hit them with a 200gr flat-point FMJ at 1,200 feet per second, so naah, I'd still favor 10mm. Still be hitting harder at 100 yards than most .45 ACP does at the muzzle. :D

[JeepDriver]

16 or 18 rounds(B92FS or G17) of 9mm is still gonna end any confrontation that can be ended with a hand gun

[Scoob]

I've heard that the flat point of .40 and 10mm fmj makes wounds as large as .45 ball( round nose). Any thoughts? Seems to make some sense, but I don't know.

I'd probably stick with my .40 in 180gr FP FMJ.

[355sigfan]

Well I have taken a strong liking to the 1911 platform of late. I would simply find a truncated cone shaped load that fed and stick with it or some 200 grain semi wadcutters. In the Glock Platform I would stick with the 21 or 22 with simular ammo. I would not use my faviorate 357 sig caliber or the 9mm.
PAT

[chaim]

Only a few modifications.

My CZ 75B (9mm) would be removed from the HD (and possible future CCW) rotation. I have no problem w/ 9mm with good HPs but with no HPs forget it.

My little Taurus 85 being a 2" snub isn't likely to open a HP anyway so my plan when I get to a CCW state is to use LSWC-HPs so making it plain LSWCs isn't much of a change. Most likely, out of a 2" barrel a .38spl or .38+P HP isn't going to open anyway and the sharp corners of the SWC insures ugly wounds while the tapered point leads to decent penatration (esp. w/ 158gr)..

My .357s and .38s would use LSWCs instead of good JHPs and I would possibly move to replace them (for HD at least) w/ .44spls or .45LCs, though due to size, when I get to a CCW state I'd probably still use them for carry. Well, "replace them" is the wrong phrase (no way I'd sell them), I'd simply add to the "collection".

Due to the advantage of having the same platform for cheap practice (cheap 9mm FMJs) and defense, I'd probably pick up a CZ 75B in .40S&W. I would load it with FP rounds (my 40B that I sold never choked on even the flattest point bullets I tried).

Until I added the CZ 75B in .40 and some big bore revolvers, my Charles Daly 1911 would probably become my primary HD gun (instead of my .38spl and .357 revolvers). The revolvers would occasionally come out, but without the use of HPs I'd want to use a big bore as much as possible. In fact, it would be highly likely that I'd add more 1911s and maybe a Ruger P90 and CZ 97 faster than I otherwise would have (hey, if big bores are going to be my primary defensive guns, I may as well have a few to choose from to satisfy different moods). Again, FP bullets though, no ball- ball, even in .45 is notoriously inept.

[Nightcrawler]

Very interesting that without JHP ammo, everyone would seem to want more velocity and heavier bullets, whereas WITH JHP ammo, many are content to stick with regular velocity light-loads.

[444]

In the revolvers, I would start using WFN bullets for carry; I use them anyway for hunting. I may experiment with heavier bullets in the .38 snub if penetration wasn't adequate in the 158 grain bullets.
My main "go-to" guns are pretty much 1911s unless I am lazy and drop the Model 60/pocket holster into my pocket. The 1911 sitting next to me is loaded with hardball anyway, so that wouldn't be much of an issue.

[10-Ring]

Shot placement, Shot placement, Shot placement, oh & Shot placement. That said, I'd be very content w/ my USP 45 and FMJ's ;)

[SnWnMe]

My 625 wouldn't care.

[Peter Gun]

I think I'd keep the same guns, but I would load my .40 w/ 180 grs instead of 165gr bullets. I might consider switching to a .45. My super redhawk would still be my favorite.:)

[Hypnogator]

Nerp. Would still carry my .45 auto, but would try to find some 225-gr SWC FMJs. Would carry my P-32 with the flat-nosed FN 7.65mms.

[The Kidd]

No changes for me if not Golden Sabres then 230 gr ball in the Mini-Max or 124 gr in which ever 9x19 I've got

[Dorrin79]

sort of.

I already think that .45 JHPs are probably the best stopper in handguns.

But I feel comfortable with 9mm JHPs

In the absence of JHPs, I would feel a lot better about .45 FMJ than 9mm FMJ

[RandyB]

It would make my 1911 a bit more comforting to carry over a 9 or .357. Of course I wouldn't feel that 'disabled' by carrying SWC, FMJ, etc.

[Poohgyrr]

My .40 Hi Power works well with LSWC's. The .45 ACP works with whatever you can load it with. In revolvers, the .44 Special (LSWC's) would get much more carry time, with the old full power wadcutters in a snub backup. I'd also be much more tempted to have a longarm handy.

[foghornl]

Something I just thought of....Since we are [in this thread] limited to "Ball" ammo, maybe it's time to dig out the old BP revolvers...The Walker Colts, Army Remingtons, etc....


/////Wise N. Hiemer mode off

[Pumpkinheaver]

I'd keep my .45acp's and .45 colts.

[SAWBONES]

Nope.
It'd still be .45ACP, still in a 1911.

[incursion]

Yes, I would move from 8+1 of 9mm to 8+1 or 7+1 .45ACP.

[Hal]

The Silver Bullet 1719 said:
I'd be contempt(sic?or Freud?) with 15 rounds of 9mm NATO

:D

Oh, yeah the question - - no. My preference wouldn't change. I look for defensive rounds that offer either a real or simulated meplat of maximum size.

[Johnny Guest]

- - With a couple of additions.

For daily routine, I wouldn't change guns, just magazines already loaded with ball or 200 gr FMJ SWC. Same Commander, same holsters, etc.

If for some reason I needed something smaller, probably would rely on surgical placement with a Browning High Power. I'd look around and try to find some of the Frontier ammo loaded with the Hornady "Air Force" bullet - - 124 gr jacketed truncated cone. Otherwise the hottest 124--125 gr. FMJ I could find.

For my .38s - -Remington used to market a 158 LSWC+P. Accurate, but little chance of expansion.

I'd probably have to let my .357s set in the safe except for hunting, though.
They usually do, anyway, but occasionally I get a wild hair and load one up with Rem 158 JHP and carry it to work. Oh, well - - -

Best,
Johnny

[Nightcrawler]

I'd probably have to let my .357s set in the safe except for hunting, though.

Why? I mean, any round that'll kill a whitetail (like a .357 Magnum hunting load) will likely do the same to a human....

[Edward429451]

If I ran out of Hydra shoks for my 45 it wouldn't even slow me down. I'd search out some 225 gr TC lead bullets. Whoops, there's some right there.

The revo's wouldnt change 44's got 180 gr WFN in em, backed up by 245 gr SWC's in speedloaders. (44 spec. & mag)

[355sigfan]

Why? I mean, any round that'll kill a whitetail (like a .357 Magnum hunting load) will likely do the same to a human....
END

The problem is not with killing a 22 short can kill a human. The problem lies in stopping them. A 357 solid will poke a nice ice pick hole in the attacker and unless it hits the spine he will be able to keep figthing and kill you long before he is going to die. In hunting that ice pick hole is not so bad as it leaves a blood trail to follow and it does not ruin too much meat. When your trying to stop an attacker its not such a good thing.
Pat

[Shane]

If non-expanding, I go with .45 ACP in semi-autos, or .45 LC or .44 Special +P in revolvers. I think if all expanding ammo was outlawed, there would be a demand for more 3-4" barrel .44 Special revolvers--since its naturally a bigger hole maker than the .38 special.

[Nightcrawler]

Pat, unless a hollow point hits something vital, it isn't going to kill you either. And, as a rule, hunters dislike having to chase after wounded game, preferring a clean kill. It's less work that way. And, the hunter has, in my opinion, a responsibility to ensure a humane kill of the animal.

Hard casts are used to ensure adequate penetration from any angle. Expanding ammunition is nice to have, but in my opinion isn't absolutely necessary in a gunfight. (Especially if you're in a situation where the badguys are using cover and you want to punch through it, though this doesn't really apply to a self-defense situation.)

[krept]

being forced to use non expanding ammunition would almost certainly not change my choice of weapon... 95% of my practice is done with FMJ anyhow and IMO there is no substitute for cartridge/platform familiarity.

even with large caliber expanding bullets, multiple shots should still be the rule until the threats=0

[355sigfan]

Pat, unless a hollow point hits something vital, it isn't going to kill you either. And, as a rule, hunters dislike having to chase after wounded game, preferring a clean kill. It's less work that way. And, the hunter has, in my opinion, a responsibility to ensure a humane kill of the animal.
END

Very true. But you missed part of my point. Its not about killing its about stopping. Also hollow points touch more tissue due to their increased size. A .70 caliber bullet is better than a .357 bullet. Hardcase lead bullets are great for game that requires their use like big bears. On people they are far from ideal. As for barrier penetration modern jhp's give up little if anything to ball in this area. Most jhp's collapse inward in hard targets and penetrate about the same as ball.
Pat

[Sean Smith]

A standing human has less TO penetrate than a critter of comparable weight that is on all fours, and most all wild animals are physically tougher than a human of comparable size (denser bone and muscle, etc.). And, of course, many critters are bigger than people. Hence deeply penetrating ammo might be appropriate for one but not the other.

[Caliburn]

Scoob had a good point:

I've heard that the flat point of .40 and 10mm fmj makes wounds as large as .45 ball (round nose). Any thoughts? Seems to make some sense, but I don't know.

Does anyone have any data about the effect of a TC versus a rounded point like 9mm FMJ?

Slightly off topic, I just fired a box of that cheap Silver Bear .45 JHP, 185 grain (I think). It has a very TC shape to it -- the angles on the shoulder were straight lines. It looked much more like a stretched .40 than a rounded .45 shape. But it shot well in my 1911, no problems at all.