[Aikibiker]

I hope I get this right.

This should be a link to a video of a police officer having an ND caught by the news.

http://www.ops-se.com/Videos/Negligence.mpg

If that doesn't work this is the site I got the link from:

http://pub145.ezboard.com/bfloridashootersnetwork (http://pub145.ezboard.com/ffloridashootersnetworkfrm1.showMessage?topicID=2507.topic)

Finger off the trigger...

[444]

When did this happen ?
I work as a firefighter in Las Vegas. I am surprised I didn't hear about it before. Of course maybe it is because I don't watch channel 13 news. Channel 3 has the better looking newscasters.

[444]

:what: :what: :what: :what: :what:

Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and all the Saints !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just finished downloading that on my ultra slow dial-up connection. How do you explain that ? I can't imagine doing something like that at my job. If I still had a job I would never hear the end of it. Someone, somewhere would bring it up every day for the rest of my career if I wasn't fired on the spot.

[Telperion]

Dude, what a dufus! I like how she (or he, hard to tell...) sheepishly puts the gun away afterwards.

[WonderNine]

:eek:

I hope she was FIRED

Pun intended.

What did the bullet hit, about 6 inches from the guy's head?

I'm surprised it didn't ricochet and hit the cop cuffing the guy.

This stupidity is actually painful to watch.

[Skunkabilly]

Holy crap. I'm trying to look for a story on it, running a 'las vegas police negligent discharge' and 'las vegas police accidental discharge' didn't bring up any hits.

[444]

You might try looking up "Metro"

Years ago (like 40 years ago) the Las Vegas PD and the Clark County Sheriff's Dept joined forces to become the Las Vegas Metropoliton Police Dept. referred to by everyone, including the news media, simply as Metro.

I certainly don't think it is some kind of internet hoax. That is the Channel 13 logo, those are definitely Metro uniforms and vehicles. The only thing that doesn't seem right is the fact that it says Las Vegas, NV on the bottom left of the screen. It already says Las Vegas on the right side of the screen. If you were watching Channel 13 in Las Vegas pretty much the only place you would be watching it, it would be perfectly obvious to you where it was, I can't see them putting that on a news story, but who knows ?

[Carnitas]

IIRC that clip is at least several years old.

[WonderNine]

What does "IIRC" mean?

[Telperion]

If I Recall Correctly

[WonderNine]

thanks!

[winstonsmith]

That cuffer practically levitated..



I certainly feel safe with her protecting me.

:uhoh:

[Zundfolge]

Liberals are so convinced that it is us who needs to be disarmed because we have armed police to protect us :rolleyes:

[MoNsTeR]

Lucky her aim was as bad as her safety-consciousness, otherwise that suspect would have turned into a grease spot.

[El Tejon]

At least this will serve as a wonderful negative example for FTUs across the world!:mad:

THE FOUR RULES ALWAYS APPLY! Even in a fight. Even if you wear polyester and a tin badge. Even if you think you are really cool and don't need to obey them.

[El Tejon]

I just watched that horrific scene again. Isn't that pistol an M9???

Aren't crunchentickers purportedly "safe" for police use?:rolleyes:

Cops don't need "Iwannacoolguns". They don't need gizmos, crunchentickers, and laser/phasers.

Cops need training. They are not getting it. We all must redouble our efforts to institute more and better firearms training for our police officers across the nation, except Ohio State Patrol which must be disarmed entirely and any LE agency that fought against carry reform in Red, Misery or Minnn-ehhh-sooo-tah.

[Feanaro]

I think that perp jumped out of the cuffs, up to Heaven, and back when that happened... :uhoh:

[Billy Sparks]

I think I heard about this "incident" (what I want to call it is banned on the board) a couple of years ago.

[Ladybug]

Holy Cow! How she managed not to hit that guy, considering she was aiming at his HEAD at that close range... This is beyond scary!

[Don Gwinn]

I have a hard time seeing how she managed to miss the other officer with a ricochet off the pavement. I bet there was a Come To Jesus meetin' after that one.

The reason it's marked "Las Vegas, NV" on the left is that it's being replayed by other affiliates. If you watch the lower-right-hand corner you see the markings for three different stations--a channel 13 first, which says "Channel 13 Las Vegas," but also a channel 10 and a channel 12, probably from other parts of the country.

That's worth seeing for everyone. It CAN happen to you if you have the same disrespect for the rules as she did.

[Don Gwinn]

Y'know, watching that again, it almost looks like the cuffer had to tell her to aim lower--watch carefully. At first she has the gun fairly high. In fact, it looks from that angle like she could be aiming it at that officer instead of the suspect. Then he looks up and, it seems, says something to her. She lowers the gun a bit and takes a half step forward, and BANG!

[keyhole]

:banghead: :cuss: :fire:

[Carnitas]

Don wrote:

Y'know, watching that again, it almost looks like the cuffer had to tell her to aim lower

That's what I thought. He looks up and sees he's being covered. Yells at her. She lowers the gun and cranks one off. I wonder if she was trying to decock or somthing?

[gbelleh]

Wow, that is some serious buffoonery!

That suspect almost jumped right out of his mullet!

[Darrin]

:what:


God help us if that's the training some of our LEOs are getting.

[TechBrute]

Keyhole, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[Kilroy]

In the raw footage, with a zoom effect, you can see the officer slowly pulling the trigger on the Beretta until it fires. Also note that she could not get the gun back into the holster, which is still in a cocked and ready to fire state. She never made it to the holster and an instant later runs to the left of the camera waving the gun (cocked) around in the air.

This is several years old. Unknown what happened to that officer.

[lazhuward]

Good Lord! That gives me a serious case of the willies.

At least the officer didn't bother to aim at anything, so when she fired the gun, no one was hit.

[Erik]

The problem is that while the four rules are taught in LEO circles, they are usually not ingrained, and even when they are, they are often instructed to disregard them.

For example, I know for a fact that several basic courses of fire at the federal level stress aiming-in with your finger on the trigger. A horrible practice to ingrain on individuals entering into law enforcement, where it is reasonably certain that they will be detaining people at gunpoint far more often than actually exchanging fire with them.


:banghead:

[atek3]

Jesus christ!

thats horrible

atek3

[JackM]

It looks like she took her left hand off the gun just before she fired. Then she whips it up to her month right after the ND, too quickly if she was still gripping the gun. Did the loss of support tip the gun's weight onto a too tight trigger finger?

Run it in slow motion and zoomed in Irfanview.
http://www.irfanview.com/
Click on the barred box in the lower left corner to set speed and zoom.

A gent who was in RCMP training told me that he'd had only about 4 hours range time, with only a couple of weeks left before graduation. He was practising at our range on his own time and ammo. Recent changes in Canada's notorious Firearms Act make it difficult to impossible for rookies to practise on their own time, if they aren't already licensed as civilians.

Bye
Jack

[John Galt]

-Why have your gun out with an unarmed person being cuffed.
-Why aiming so close to the perp / officer when guy is unarmed.
-Why finger on the trigger when not intending to shoot.

[Kilroy]

-Why have your gun out with an unarmed person being cuffed.
-Why aiming so close to the perp / officer when guy is unarmed.
-Why finger on the trigger when not intending to shoot.


Because that is the level of personnel and training that the local community is willing to put up with.

[QuickDraw]

Yikes!!
I almost pooped my pants the first time I saw it!!
That cop putting the cuffs on was pretty cool about it,
kept control of the perp.I think I would have to change
my pants.:D

QuickDraw

[FJC]

It almost looked to me like the cop doing the cuffing grabs at his knee afterward, maybe he did catch a little spray or cement chips from the round...

[citizen]

Won't open. No Real Player software available. (!?):confused:

[4v50 Gary]

QuickDraw - you almost pooped in your pants? If I was the perp I would have filled mine. Here the perp. is probably thinking, "O.K., I'm busted, I'll cooperate so I won't get hurt." Then, bang! WTH?!!!!?

I don't think that cop could have held me down. I would have wanted to strangle the negligent officer. But then again, I would also be thinking, "How much can I get from this?"

[Robby from Long Island]

That's one piece of real police video you won't see on "COPS".:D

Safe shooting.

[Yohan]

Funny- she holsters the weapon after the ND- That just cracks me up :D

[Matt G]

Uh, Yohan, don't you think that, all things considered, that was the best thing to do at point? :o

Scare me much.

The first time I ever provided gun cover for another officer, I was a green rookie when a drunk failed to yield for a Trooper, who asked me to assist him in getting the guy stopped. The sad old drunk, who'd just been blazing along at 80+ with a Trooper running lights and siren for 10 miles behind him, just pulled it over when I got in front of him with my lights and siren and waved him over. Somehow the Trooper and I reversed positions, and boxed him in when we stopped. The state cop comes boiling back toward the driver with his Sig out, running at him in the semi-dark right-hand lane of the Interstate. I naturally provide cover, all the while wondering what the Trooper knows that I don't. Trooper yanks the drunk out, and handcuffs him on the car while I assess the for driver for weapons and then the car. When it was over, the Trooper tells me that he simply had his pistol out to take out the tires if the guy started rolling at him again. (Okayyyy.... I frankly thought he was ready to cap the guy.) At any rate, I remember that when it was done, I had a deep impression gouged into the top of my strong-side thumb, from pressing up so hard to make sure that safety was on. That index finger, I may assure you, was inches outside the trigger guard. And my muzzle was covering the pavement under the old Buick that the drunk was pulled out of.

The last time I covered an officer 'cuffing a possibly armed violent felon (I'd just caught him sneaking out the back window of his ex-wife's [who had a protective order against him] house, and he'd buttstroked a man a few months earlier with a shotgun, causing many dozens of stitches to his face), I had him get spread-eagle on the ground while the 'cuffing officer moved in. At that point, I shifted my aim to the side so that I had a clear view of dirt in my sights, extended my strong side index finger so very straight alongside the frame of the pistol that it actually arched backward, a tad, and watched the guy, then the window, then the guy, then the window. When the second cuff ratcheted, I just moved my aim up to the window and waited 'til the officer was clear.

GAWD, but I really didn't want an ND! :)

Now, at what point did I disengage and/or re-engage the thumb safety on my 1911? I honestly don't recall. All I knew was, I knew the status of my weapon at the time, and training made sure of that. If you're trained well, you're confident. If you're confident in your weapon skills, you can think about other things. If you're thinking, you can save someone's life. (Maybe your own.)

[El Rojo]

Yeah this one is pretty old if I recall. That is why cops train now to have your finger outside of the trigger guard. Many a academy student have seen that one a few times or more.

[Stay Low]

What a dumba**. It's simple...finger off the trigger til ready to fire. Pretty scary stuff.

[Gordy Wesen]

Almost looks like the cops leg got hit by something.
Thanks for the post. Amazing. Bet this fellow got out of jail free.

[Powderman]

God help us if that's the training some of our LEOs are getting

As was mentioned earlier, cops get LOTS of training in firearms and safety--at least in WA. That's why they call it range WEEK--a solid week of 10 hour days--or more--in total immersion in firearms. In the academy we went to, we had to demonstrate the four basic gun safety rules, and write and recite them verbatim during our practical exams. If you could not, you failed. And if you flunk firearms, you're out. Period.

All of the times I have had a suspect at gunpoint, the weapon was aimed, but finger indexed. With my normal duty gun (Glock) my hands are big enough so that I always put my trigger finger ON THE EJECTION PORT! As soon as the subject is disarmed and proned out, and as soon as the cuffing officer touches them, then it's reholster time, folks. I "half-holster", meaning the weapon is in the holster but with no retention devices fastened. As soon as the first cuff is on, the retention devices get secured, just in case I have to jump in the middle of a ground fight.

I seriously doubt that that LV cop is still on duty.

[Mike Irwin]

"-Why have your gun out with an unarmed person being cuffed.
-Why aiming so close to the perp / officer when guy is unarmed.
-Why finger on the trigger when not intending to shoot."

We don't know the background on the person being apprehended, or the situation surrounding the apprehension.

He could well have been armed when he was taken to ground, meaning that there is every reason for it to be a "hostile" apprehension.

Finger on the trigger? No way that should be.


"Because that is the level of personnel and training that the local community is willing to put up with."

As opposed to what?

Presenting the apprehendee with a boquet of flowers?

[Darrin]

Powderman,

That's why I said some. ;)

[4 eyed six shooter]

Lucy, I think you got some SPLAINEN to do!!! :eek:

[Sunray]

She should have been fired and charged. More evidence that cops are the most incompetent users of firearms. Have a look at my posting under the 'cop shot his foot' posting. Friggin' scary.

[jmbg29]

It's criminal that those Berretas don't have a thumb safety. They seem to go off all by themselves just like them there Glocks.

Oh...wait, Berretas do have thumb safeties! Gee. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Ivanimal]

I have always said that the 9mm is an inferior round, why, I would have given her a shotgun and done the job right. No wait! maybe a fully auto in 45 cal or one of those newfangled 50 caliber jobs by Smith and Wesson or..................

[winwun]

Protect And Serve ? ? How about, Harass, Intimidate and Put In Harm's Way ? ?

[KMKeller]

SaxonPig - The gun was NOT cocked. She pulled it off in DA. Also, the alleged perp grabs the right side of his face after the officer fires off the round. I think both he and the cuffing officer both got a little lead splatter from the incident.

[Steel]

How did that girl (I chose the label intentionally) get out of the academy?! That is totaly unacceptable.

Let's write some letters to her CO !

Address? Contacts?

:mad:

[Mike Irwin]

"How did that girl get out of the academy..."

The same way every BOY who has ever had a negligent discharge got out of the academy.

[Mizzoutiger]

KM- Are you sure it wasn't cocked? I can't really tell, the video's not close enough. It would be ridiculous either way. If it were cocked... how did it get that way? Is it SOP to cock the hammer back when you doing a felony cuffing like that? If it weren't cocked... how in the world did she accidently pull the trigger all the way back?? OMG this video makes me wanna wretch.

[Sportcat]

Sunray wrote...

She should have been fired and charged. More evidence that cops are the most incompetent users of firearms. Have a look at my posting under the 'cop shot his foot' posting. Friggin' scary.

I don't believe we need this attitude on this board. I, in no way, believe "cops are the most incompetent users of firearms." Do you have any proof to back this outrageous statement?

If you are to take the high road, please don't make these ignorant, generalizing statements.

Thank you

[Missouri Mule]

Can you say future..."Meter Maid".

Holy crap that is scary!!!!!

[Powderman]

Protect And Serve ? ? How about, Harass, Intimidate and Put In Harm's Way ? ?

She should have been fired and charged. More evidence that cops are the most incompetent users of firearms. Have a look at my posting under the 'cop shot his foot' posting. Friggin' scary.

Oh, for heaven's sakes, folks!!

Do we really, truly HAVE to proceed directly to cop bashing every time something like this comes up?

If you are of the standpoint that cops are the most incompetent users of firearms, then that's you're opinion. Why don't you go tell it to folks like Mike Price, Doug Koenig, Mickey Dalton, Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob and others like them? All are either current or former cops.

As a matter of fact, I extend a cordial invitation to you, my friends. Come up to Washington State, and let's go to the range. We'll have a friendly competition.

I'll set up a standard bullseye target at 50 yards. Yes, I said yards.

Then, we'll have a set of friendly wagers.

I will fire 90 rounds at that target.

You will pay me $10.00 for every round I land in the 10 ring or better.

You will pay me $5.00 for every round I land in the 8 ring or 9 ring
(total aiming area at 50 yards is about 5 inches)

I will pay you $25.00 for every round I land outside of the 8 ring, and for every one I put off the target.

Oh, by the way, I'll even shoot from the "duel" position--ONE HANDED.

I should warn you that I have plans for the money I will win from you. A new .45 comes to mind.

I need a new wad gun anyway, after all, I just shoot about 300 rounds in practice and competition each week for NRA Conventional Pistol--OOPS! I wasn't supposed to let that slip!

Well, I might as well buy a new Glock with it, because I'm about to wear the barrel out of mine sooner or later. Plus the finish is getting worn from the holster presentations every week, and the 2 to 300 rounds I put through it every other week---Oh, horse poop! I let that one slip, too!

I'm not supposed to do any of that kind of stuff--or the AR 15 practice--all positions--or the M1A practice--all positions--or the shotgun firing that I do for practice.

Everyone just KNOWS that cops are the most incompetent people with firearms on the planet!

:neener:

Come on, folks! Do you HAVE to do this, or what? :confused:

[firestar]

They should have taken the gun from her right then and let the perp up and told him that if he could beat her in a fist fight, he could go free. I bet there would be a lot of cops standing by as the prep stomped a mud puddle in her A$$!

There is nothing I can say that hasn't been said before but man-o-live! In DA no less! I have a Beretta so I know how long the DA trigger is. She must have been VERY tense or something.:rolleyes:

I have nothing against women being cops, I think I would prefer an all female police force, it might take some of the thugs out of uniform. I am not even unhappy that they aren't trained very well, I don't expect them to protect me. All I ask is, don't shoot me in the head for a traffic violation.:D

[moa]

Yes, that shooting incident is not of recent vintage. And, IIRC both the cuffing officer and the arrestee were both injured, but not seriously.

I would not be surprised that both the cuffing officer and the arrestee might have both wanted to kick her fanny.

[George Hill]

Sportcat - everyone is entitled to personal opinion.

Cops seem to be more dangerous to some people when it comes to guns... because cops are always using guns.
The same thing can be said about cops driving cars... because most cops spend most of the shift in the car, and on the road.

This is called "spin".

Democrats are masters of this.

[coop57]

I saw a female LEO at our local indoor range injury her self with the staple gun while trying to mount a paper target. Only a small percentage of LEOs are competent with handguns. Most shoot very little.

[Mike Irwin]

"I saw a female LEO at our local indoor range injury her self with the staple gun while trying to mount a paper target."

I once saw a cop smash his thumb with a hammer while I was helping him rebuild his kitchen floor.

How is either situation applicable to a negligent discharge with a firearm?

Unless officers are now being armed with Arrow Staplemaster 92s or California Framer 38s...

[Carlos Cabeza]

It happens to the best of us, just not in a critical "police moment" Cut her some slack.

[12-34hom]

When there's blood in the water...

12-34hom.

[Mike Irwin]

"When there's blood in the water..."


No...


I really think in this case it's more "when there's a female who happens to be a cop in the water..."

[winstonsmith]

Cops are great. I've talked to many, many cops, who were intrigued to find a friendly and respectful teenager. I've come out of the those conversations with one impression.

The cops I talked to are competent, cool headed, intelligent, and even amiable fellows. Both men and women. I feel safe with them protecting me.

With that said, cops are taken from general population. There are incompetent buffoons in the general population, thus there are incompetent buffoons in the police force. Albeit at a smaller (at least out here) rate.

Anyone who thinks that LEOs are incompetent and badmouth them are forgetting that they are the duct tape that is holding our society together.

[jmbg29]

I've talked to many, many cops, who were intrigued to find a friendly and respectful teenager.winston,

I have got to say that I too am impressed. You are a very thoughtful and well spoken kid. That is a fairly rare thing.

[winstonsmith]

Thanks jmbg29. I appreciate it. I'm not that pompous all the time. When I'm with my friends I speak in californianese. you know, hella, like, and all that.

You dont feel comfortable joining an RKBA message board at 14 without having a command over the english language.


out of my cold dead hands...

[SquirrelNuts]

I have had the pleasure of talking to winstonsmith...swapping stories, views and concerns over many things...not just firearms. I am very proud to say that this young man is the future of firearms owners.

As far as police go, there are a few bad ones out there, but they are few and far between. Those bad ones do give the good ones a bad image, but this happens in every walk of life. How many times do you hear someone say "I will never go back to XXX store because of that salesperson's poor attitude?" Not every salesperson's attitude is poor at that store (usually) just that one person. Happens all the time folks.

I used to have a poor vision of law enforcement because I ran into several of the poor ones. A friend talked me into doing a ride along with a local police agency to see what cops really do, how they act, and what they really are like. I did this, and it really changed my perception of law enforcement. When this same friend went through the police academy, I was shocked by how much they went through to earn (notice I said earn) their position.

I suggest that everyone do a police ride along, no matter what your perception of police is. Go to your local police station and ask them about a ride along program. Some agencies do not do this, so don't stop looking if the first agency says they do no.

-SquirrelNuts

[winstonsmith]

Yeah... people who badmouth cops really make me angry.

I didn't see those people rushing into a burning 100+ story tower to save lives 2 Septembers ago. I didn't see them losing their own.

I don't see them putting their lives on the line, every day, for my basic ability to not get harrassed.

Leave the cops alone. They get enough crap from criminals (not to mention liberals)

Just because a few of them screw up doesn't mean they are as a whole incompetent.

[Feanaro]

I don't bad mouth cops on a general level. But I have met a whole STATION full and various assorted ones. Many of them are nice people. But they are pretty much incompetant with their weapons. I could say they are all horrible because that is my only experiance with them. And that's why many people say that.

I haven't met all the police in the world and until I do my position will remain neutral. But they never seem to make a good impression on me.

[arinvolvo]

Powderman...Wow...that is SO NEATO!!! I have to tell you, there are two things that I love most in the world....One is hearing about how awesome someone thinks they are, and the other is getting kicked in the nuts.:barf:

[firestar]

I don't see them putting their lives on the line, every day, for my basic ability to not get harrassed.

The only times I have been harrassed in the past 10 years was by cops! I am not a trouble maker and I don't have a record. I have never had anything more than a speeding ticket but that is because I know how to talk to these jokers. If you pretend to show them respect, they will go away and bother someone else. I can honestly say that I have very little respect for cops. They are not doing their job because they want to protect you or because they have some great love of the law, they want power and the ability to push people around. They also need money just like all of us. It takes a certain type of person to decide they want to be a cop.

Not all of them are like this of course. I am making a point and I am not being compleatly fair. My friend is a cop and I don't really consider him a bully, he does enjoy putting the boot to what he considers the "bad guys" but he is pretty fair with them also. I think there are two kinds of people that become cops, those that want power and want to push people around and a small percentage of people that seem to like order and feel it is important to protect rules and order from what they see as a crazy world. Either way, it takes someone that thinks in black and white, right and wrong to be a cop. You have to believe that there are "good guys" and "bad guys" in this world.

[MicroBalrog]

The gun was NOT cocked. She pulled it off in DA

She ACCIDENTALY pulled off an ND with a DA gun? :what:

[mephisto]

Look at the end of the tape. I think the perp takes a little pepper of the pavement. And the "gunner" pooped her pants.

[Keith]

My problem with cops and "accidental" shootings, etc, isn't with cops in general, but with the fact that there are no consequences for cops in these situations. My problem is with local political establishments that hold cops above the rules that the rest of us have to live by.

You can be sure that the cop in question is still firmly attached to the public teat for her living.

Most cops are pretty decent people, and I'm sure, MORE competent with their weapons than the average civilian. If you doubt that, go to your nearest range and observe the level of gun handling by the general public...

If a cop gets caught taking a bribe he's ripped apart by the local establishment. But, if he kicks down the wrong door and shoots a homeowner, there's no consequences at all - for the shooter, for the brass who okayed the warrant on some junkies "tip", for the judge - no consequences.
And in this case, what would happen to any of us if we drew and "accidently" fired our guns in a situation which didn't require it? Wouldn't we be standing before a judge? Would we still have our carry permits?

Why two standards?

[Jack19]

Most cops are pretty decent people, and I'm sure, MORE competent with their weapons than the average civilian.

The decent people part I agree with wholeheartedly, having been one, the more competent with their weapons than the average citizen part....only if you're talking about specialized units; on the average, not a chance.



Hell, she's probably a Sergeant now.

[Powderman]

Powderman...Wow...that is SO NEATO!!! I have to tell you, there are two things that I love most in the world....One is hearing about how awesome someone thinks they are, and the other is getting kicked in the nuts

:confused:

[arinvolvo]

Powderman....this is a copy of you...telling us all how awesome you are:

I'll set up a standard bullseye target at 50 yards. Yes, I said yards.

Then, we'll have a set of friendly wagers.

I will fire 90 rounds at that target.

You will pay me $10.00 for every round I land in the 10 ring or better.

You will pay me $5.00 for every round I land in the 8 ring or 9 ring
(total aiming area at 50 yards is about 5 inches)

I will pay you $25.00 for every round I land outside of the 8 ring, and for every one I put off the target.

Oh, by the way, I'll even shoot from the "duel" position--ONE HANDED.

I should warn you that I have plans for the money I will win from you. A new .45 comes to mind.

I need a new wad gun anyway, after all, I just shoot about 300 rounds in practice and competition each week for NRA Conventional Pistol--OOPS! I wasn't supposed to let that slip!


It goes on.
:neener:

[Powderman]

Oh, I get it now. I guess that was supposed to be a flame, right?

I seldom toot my own horn. However, wrote what I did for a reason.

I take my job very seriously. And I mean VERY seriously.

I believe that I should be proficient with every tool that I carry. Moreover, I believe that I have to be way past proficient with my sidearm--or any other firearm that I carry on duty. Why?

Because if you do need to use your service weapon, when you pull the trigger, guess what? You can't call for an instant replay, folks. You can't stop that bullet, or prevent it from exiting the muzzle.

My point of view is this: If I have to ever aim and discharge a firearm at another human being with lethal intent, I had DAMN well better know what I am doing. And, I had better hit what I'm aiming at!!

I figure that my proficiency at hitting my target with pin point accuracy on the range will translate to minute of torso when the chips are down, when you introduce all the stress factors.

All that was written as a counter point--the vast majority of police officers I know are proficient with their service weapons. They practice to stay that way, at great expense to themselves.

However, "arinvolvo", since you chose to attack me, I'll offer you the same friendly wager I listed above. You just have to show up, if you feel the need to do so. By the way, please pardon me if I come across as arrogant; 30+ years of dropping hammers of various types of firearms have enabled me to usually hit where I'm aiming.

(By the way, can anyone tell me why when someone states that they can do something well, someone else is there to immediately bad-mouth them? Maybe I'm a bit naive. I just don't get it.)

Oh, and by the way, if you think I'm tooting my own horn, let me say that I don't hold a candle to some of the other folks that I have had the honor of shooting with. These gents (and ladies) are literal shooting machines. One gentleman who goes by the name of Darius Young comes to mind. Another is a guy named Steve Reiter, and yet another is Brian Zins. If those names don't sound familiar, look up the roster of current and past National Pistol Champions. These folks shoot rings around me, but are some of the most cordial people you will ever meet.

[Shaggy]

All the downloads must have used up thier bandwidth alotment. I get page cannot be displayed and I can not save target as. Get an error, cannot connect to site.

[Powderman]

winstonsmith,

Thank you for your vote of trust and confidence. It only takes contact with one person who feels the way you do to make the job worthwhile.

If you're ever up in Washington State, look me up. Dinner and range time are waiting, and the tab's on me.

:) :) :)

[RCL]

From what I remember, the story back when this happened was that the officer was decocking the Berreta. I also seem to remember she was fired soon after. The camera angle I origanally saw was from behind and above the female officer.

[Erik]

In no particular order:

Memos and retraining are usually on order for NDs in gun carrying occupations, not firing. More than one starts a different story, of course....

Lovely to see "of course not all of them" lumped in with the over-the-top cop bashing. It truelly is, as already pointed out, spin worthy of the far left.

Thanks, Winstonsmith. Hearing from folks like you are not why I do what I do, but it is certainly a perk.

I'm off to TFL to read about all the gunnie incompetents who should be disarmed for their NDs. Quite a lot, iirc. I wonder if anyone who fessed up there is bashing here? Hmmm.... Probably not.

[12-34hom]

Mike Irwin, is that right??

How old is the tape that is being viewed for all our pleasure?

What motivates people to post such things other than to provoke bad images of police?

I wonder what the ratio is of civilian vs. peace officers with accidents involving firearms as a whole?

In the last seven years i've spent working as a peace officer, i have been around ONE officer i did not trust when around him on a firing range.

On the other hand, i've seen MANY of gunners at the public range i shoot that scare the hell right out of me.

You do the math and tell me how it adds up.

12-34hom.

[Ivanimal]

After reading the circle jerk of who is worse and who is better I dont believe anyone is going to change sides because of this forum. Why dont you just look at this as an isolated incident and move on with it. I have many LEO friends and I wont hunt with 2 of them. I have other friends that arent LEO's and I wont stay in the same room with them if a gun is in the same house. All in all I look at the individual first. One of my LEO friends thinks he is 6'3" and weighs 280 lbs. he isnt 5'9" and 160 drippin wet, still he walks as though he is a power to be reconed with. It makes me laugh, but the rest orf the cops more than make up for this clown. I am 6'3" and 280 but I dont push it around. What is the gain.

Look inside yourself and ask who is being the fool.:evil:

[arinvolvo]

Powderman, I was just yankin your chain dude...:p

[El Rojo]

Now in this case, I might see the officer getting charged with something. However, in another link, Keith was making the broad generalization that a CCW holder would have their license revoked and be prosecuted for having a negligent discharge. Follow this link to see that the answer to whether a civilian would have their CCW revoked for a "accidental discharge" is a resounding no. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23023&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

I have heard of cops shooting the wrong people in the wrong search warrants. However, how many civilians have been prosecuted for shooting the wrong person in a wrong search warrant? Secondly, it isn't necessarily a "unnecessary shooting" if you are a law enforcement officer that is serving a search warrant on what you suspect is the correct house and you see a suspect in that house pointing a gun at you. What should the cop do? What should the law-abiding citizen who is just defending themself do? That is a pretty tough question, but I don't think the answer lies in examining who should be prosecuted and not prosecuted for the shooting. The answer lies in who authorized the search warrant for the middle of the night, at the wrong address, or when they knew there might be a shootout and there was time to secure the perimeter and negotiate. And in your example where there no consequences? I remember there being a situation like that here in central PRK a few years back. The cheif lost his job, the department had to settle for several millon dollars, and the mini-swat team at the small department was disbanded. Maybe no one was prosecuted, but who is there to prosecute? The officer that sees a shotgun barrel pointing at them? I hardly see that as being fair and just. No the situation needs to be re-evaluated. Sometimes life just deals us a raw hand. What can you do more than just hope it doesn't happen to you? Cops have to do their jobs and I have my job of defending my home. It all lies in are the chiefs and sheriffs smart enough to learn from mistakes and not be so gung ho.

As far as this situation goes, no excuses. She should be fired. Criminal charges? I don't see why not if you can charge a civilian with some reckless endangerment for such a stunt, why not her? We can make excuses about stress and the difficult situation. However, if that was the wrong suspect or the suspect was only being arrested for shoplifting, does that warrant losing your life when you are complying with the police? Anyone that thinks so are you willing to give up your life for the right for that officer to make a "mistake"? I am not.

[12.7x99mm]

Oh man.... :scrutiny: :banghead: :scrutiny:

Im looking at some of these cops they're hiring these days to be PC and its not cool. And what this lady did was defiantly not cool!

Of course she probably got a slap on the wrist and was back on the beat with a gun soon

How old is that vid?

[Steel]

Stop the hero mantra -- that's so played!

Powderman:

Why is criticism called "bashing" when it comes to badges?

Butch up!

[winstonsmith]

Critcism is called bashing when its made general, and over the top. People are saying things like "I've only been harassed by cops." Or "cops are the most incompetent firearm users."

Thats bashing.

If they said, "Maybe should have had a little more training." Or even "Wow, her skills are deplorable."

Thats another story.

[Sportcat]

Spend a day with a cop... maybe some of these bashing comments will go away.

This past fall my brother and I attended a "Citizen's Police Academy." One night a week for 12 weeks. It gave a real insight to what these "incompetent, idiotic, non-gun handling" folks go through.

I had respect for officers beforehand, and even more after the course.

Put your life on the line every day for crappy pay. I'm sure we all make mistakes at our jobs every now and then. Why should LEOs be exempt?

[Keith]

>>>>Follow this link to see that the answer to whether a civilian would have their CCW revoked for a "accidental discharge" is a resounding no.<<<<

El Rojo, As was pointed out in that thread there are clearly two violations in just the one section you posted, so the individual would have their permit revoked.

(2) discharges a firearm from, on, or across a highway;
(3) discharges a firearm with reckless disregard for a risk of physical injury to a person under circumstances other than those described in AS 11.61.195 (a)(3)(a).

These are only the violations listed under the CCW laws. There would also be a number of other charges that would surely be tacked on for discharging a weapon in a public place.

Keith

[webhak]

This tape was shot in Las Vegas and I believe the event occured within the last 2-7 years. We saw this in our CCW class and apparently, the female officer was not fired. She is most likely still on the force. After some internal reviews, the discharge was declared accidental, not negligent.

I saw the tape over a year ago, so my apologies for not remembering all of the details of the outcome of this ND.

[winwun]

Cops are people. People with a certain agenda, to be sure, but subject to the frailties that most of us suffer.

Winston, learn and remember that things are not always what they first appear to be. After your hero worship is tempered with 60 or 70 years of living, you will understand what I am saying.

The cop who takes a baton and a phone book to your head is the same cop who will go into icy water in January to save a child.
The cop who is on the pad is the same cop who will work overtime for no pay on a food drive to feed some hungry people.

Cops for the most part have a tiring, dirty and thankless job, but while the less I have to do with them the happier I am, I am glad that they are there.

The very nature of their jobs is to work with a certain sub-class who think, and rightly so, that the police are their natural enemy.
This does not cultivate the proper manners or attitude for your everyday tea party.

I strongly resent anyone telling anyone else what they can and can't say, subject to rules of decency, on this forum. Perhaps those PC cops would do well to read the piece of paper we all refer to frequently. It has a few things to say about freedom of speech and such.

[winstonsmith]

I think you misunderstand what I say winwun. I think its stupid to criticise all cops for what a few do. I never said that people should be STOPPED from saying stuff that insults cops. I just think people should learn not to take police protection for granted.

Not all police protection happens when you are under attack. If they pick up the person who was gonna attack you before it happens, then they may have saved your (or even the attackers) life.

Whose to say that if a certain person weren't arrested then I would be suffering the ministriations of a child rapist right now?

[El Rojo]

Those intersted in the other thread can go there and check out what I said about an accidental discharge not being reckless disregard for a risk of bodily injury.

[Aikibiker]

Webhak, welcome to the highroad!

Thanks for the information on what happened to the officer involved in this AD.

As for the cop-bash/critisizing, why don't you guys start another thread? I think this could have happened to anyone and we should focus on how to prevent it happening to us.

[Minute_Of_Torso]

Quoting Powderman:

"As was mentioned earlier, cops get LOTS of training in firearms and safety--at least in WA. That's why they call it range WEEK--a solid week of 10 hour days--or more--in total immersion in firearms. In the academy we went to, we had to demonstrate the four basic gun safety rules, and write and recite them verbatim during our practical exams. If you could not, you failed. And if you flunk firearms, you're out. Period."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Wow! A whole week? Gee, that's 70 whole hours (assuming 7 days at 10 hours a day). Golly, they had to write and recite FOUR whole rules?! Shazam! How did they stand up to the pressure?

And before I get lectured on how difficult police academies are, let me state for the record that I've received many more hours than 70 hours of firearms training (very little in the military, the remainder being at the expense of my own time and money) and have myself provided many more hours than 70 hours of firearms training (once again at my own expense, never received a dime in compensation). No "cop bashing" intended in my post at all (unless it's for the local PD who served a "bust down my door" warrant a few months ago, oops! wrong address!), just thought it amusing that 70 hours qualified as "LOTS".

[444]

Actually, if you ever spent 4-5 days, receiving firearms training while being coached, you would be amazed at what can be achieved; no matter what your present skill level. Being totally immersed in the subject and your performance being judged the whole time gives remarkable results.

This of course is not to mention that police work involves a whole lot more than firearms training. The academy only lasts so much time and there is a lot of information packed into the academy. No one becomes a master of any of it in that length of time, but the basics are learned and provide a foundation to build on.

[Billmanweh]

is there still a working version of this anywhere on the net?

[Oderus]

Yes, there is....
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/negligence.html

[Billmanweh]

thanks

[dustind]

Powderman...Wow...that is SO NEATO!!! I have to tell you, there are two things that I love most in the world....One is hearing about how awesome someone thinks they are, and the other is getting kicked in the nuts I knew this one girl. She is married now, but she would have been perfect for you.