Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue?


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Confederate
November 1, 2006, 12:48 AM
I can't understand it. We have all these autoloaders out there with truly horrible double action trigger pulls, but only 1911-styled pistols retain them. I don't trust the Glock's lack of a safety and I don't like having a dreadful first shot (especially when it might be the most important).

So why don't modern autos employ the cocked and locked feature? Especially when it seems to work very well in 1911s?

I have a Smith 659 that is very smooth, but it's had some work done on it. It was horrible when I first got it.

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Black Snowman
November 1, 2006, 12:56 AM
One of the reasons I love my CZs. I like cocked and locked. I like having a 2nd strike option, plus a 1911 just isn't quite a good fit for me and a bit on the large/heavy side for carry. I can do Glocks too, but I shoot the CZs better. I know if I'm handling the gun right a lack of a manual safety is a boon, not a hinderance. One less mechanical thing to go wrong. One less action to foul up. Even so, if my life is on the line, I reach for a CZ 1st because I can put more shots on target faster with the CZs than anything else and so far they go bang every time.

ShelbyV8
November 1, 2006, 12:59 AM
There are more people carrying 1911's than anytime since WWII. I own 1911's but I have been carrying S&W's for 20 years. I used to carry a 1911 as a duty weapon but found the safety swept off too often, when getting in and out of a patrol car. Switched to to a S&W 645 which was more accurate than my Gold Cup in my hands.

daysleeprx
November 1, 2006, 12:59 AM
HK USPs can also be carried C&L.

mosttoyswins
November 1, 2006, 01:04 AM
I think it carrying C&L just creeps some people out.

Black Snowman
November 1, 2006, 01:06 AM
C&L freaked me out for a while. Sat around the house one day with the Delta Elite ready to rock in my holster and have felt silly about worrying ever since. :cool:

B yond
November 1, 2006, 01:19 AM
It just looks dangerous to the uninformed. It bothered me until I did some research into how the safety functions.

sm
November 1, 2006, 01:56 AM
1. Lack of Education
2 Marketing

First off , folks are not being raised as they once were in regard to being educated in some matters. 1911s, BHPs being cocked and locked was asked, and answered by parents, adults Law Enforcement persons and Military persons.
We used to keep matcholders that would hold a box of kitchen matches too. Don't see those in homes anymore. Playing with matches was taught early to kids. Just like putting a hand on a stovetop. You didn't play with matches or put your hand on a stovetop. Parents parented, Adults educated.


Second, marketing kicked in. This Marketing is two parts.
(A) is new guns were coming out and promoted by Mediums such as TV, Movies, and Magazines. Lethal Weapon sold the Beretta 92, Dirty Harry sold the Model 29 and the .44 Mag. for example. "Gotta haves" is what I call this.

(B) Marketing again using the Mediums of TV, Movies, and Print, Brainwashed people, among other things, how evil guns were, and how unsafe they were.
Insurance and Lawyers were part of this Marketing too.

Folks not raised with guns in the home, kitchen matches in a holder in the kitchen, either. Folks not being educated about guns and playing with matches. Marketing the new safer ways so one did not get sued, pay higher insurance for liability. Marketing propaganda not raising folks to take personal responsiblity, and instead raised to depend on someone else to take care of them.

Cocked & Locked is just one example of the demise of education and the rise of marketing for ignorance.

CountGlockula
November 1, 2006, 02:58 AM
Glock do not lack safety. They are the safest guns in the market.

Hkmp5sd
November 1, 2006, 03:43 AM
Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue?


Because someone invented the double action (including the Glock variation) semi-automatic that decreased by half the number of things needed to fire the first round in an autoloader with a round already chambered. The manual safety was swapped for a longer trigger pull on round one.

Add to that the majority of autoloaders manufactured during the "wonder 9" phase of the 80s did not have the capability of cocked and locked. Another factor was the lawsuit paranoia of those in charge of police agencies as they shifted from revolvers to semi-automatics. They are the primary reason for the introduction of the DAO pistols.

Vitamin G
November 1, 2006, 03:53 AM
Why is cocked and locked out of vogue?


Because in general, as a society we've moved away from thinking and logic, and toward feelings

GregGry
November 1, 2006, 03:58 AM
They are the safest guns in the market. How so? I don't agree with that at all.

Eightball
November 1, 2006, 04:01 AM
Because in general, as a society we've moved away from thinking and logic, and toward feelings:barf: is my reaction to this. It's true, but very, very sad.

Give me a 1911, keep your DA....unless it's a wheelgun.

kengrubb
November 1, 2006, 04:22 AM
I don't trust the Glock's lack of a safety
If you won't trust a Glock, then don't trust a DA revolver. Both are Condition 0 guns. Point gun, pull trigger. No active safeties or decockers to fuss with.

If you believe that a 12 pound trigger will keep you safe, but a 5 pound trigger is unsafe, then you're violating Rule #3
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XIIIA4.html

JR719
November 1, 2006, 04:29 AM
I'm not a huge fan of the glock "safe action". If one can reach the trigger and pull, it goes off. I like the 1911's, at least there is an external safety so if someone does a gun grab.... hopefully figuring out the safety will slow them down long enough so you can take control. Not all criminals are gun savvy you know. With a glock, they pull and shoot.

The modern view of "cocked and locked" is more than likely just ignorance. Some think in terms of a revolver, it is cocked and doesn't take much pull to fire. True, it is now single action, however, with a 1911, it is "locked". The safety is on and cannot fire. Just looking at a weapon with the hammer back, well, "looks" unsafe when compaired to the revolvers without a safety.

I'll take my Kimber any day over my glock unless we're talking ammo capacity. That would be about the only thing, really. All things considered (I know I'm missing a lot) The 1911 has style, has a real safety, "fits" my hand, crisp trigger and the list goes on. The Glock, well, it has a large magazine capacity and easy to clean :) .

Coronach
November 1, 2006, 04:34 AM
If you won't trust a Glock, then don't trust a DA revolver. Both are Condition 0 guns. Point gun, pull trigger. No active safeties or decockers to fuss with.

If you believe that a 12 pound trigger will keep you safe, but a 5 pound trigger is unsafe, then you're violating Rule #3By that same logic, you don't need a manual safety on a tweaked, competition 1911 trigger, either. If Glocks and revolvers are safe for Condition 0, so is a 1911.

Somewhere between light competition triggers on a semi-auto and the DA pull of a revolver there is a point, and on one side of the point it is a really good idea to have a manual safety, and on the other it is OK to not have one. I don't presume to know exactly where that point lies (in truth, it will vary a lot by the type of work done by the gun, i.e., is it a race gun or a duty gun?), but it certainly does exist.

And no, I do not think Glocks are unsafe. They are, however, unforgiving of unsafe practices. That is not the gun's fault.

Mike

JR719
November 1, 2006, 04:55 AM
Coronach,

Oddly enough, it was not my point to say Glocks are unsafe. I have carried one on duty for years. I just like the added benifit of an external safety. I was involved in a gun grab, fortunately the turd did not get the gun out of the holster. After that, it sorta made me think about various things, one being an external safety on the weapon.
For the people doing range shooting and CCW, I would guess 99% of the time (or more) they will never be involved in a shoot, don't shoot or gun grab (real life). Under stress, a 2 or 12 pound trigger will more than likely not matter.
I was geared more towards a "gun grab" for the lack of an external safety on the Glocks (although it doesn't really read that way). If the bad guy gets your gun and does not know the proper function, it will slow them down and get you time. With a Glock, that is not so.

Autolycus
November 1, 2006, 05:10 AM
I just prefer a pull and point type gun. I understand a LEOs desire for a safety in the case of a gun grab but I plan to conceal my gun. I dont plan on letting them grab it since they should not see it. I know it is possible but I think it more likely a cop open carrying will suffer a gun grab then someone concealing their gun PROPERLY.

kengrubb
November 1, 2006, 05:25 AM
By that same logic, you don't need a manual safety on a tweaked, competition 1911 trigger, either. If Glocks and revolvers are safe for Condition 0, so is a 1911.
Agreed and agreed. You do NOT need a manual safety on a 1911.

Now, if you went out and had a 1911 built without a manual safety, you might well be inviting legal woes--but that's a whole nutter kettle fish and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What is unsafe and what is legally a bad idea are two entirely different standards.

Also, not needing a manual safety and not using a manual safety are two entirely different things. If the gun has a safety, then you should dang well use it, practice swiping it on when holstering and off when presenting. Otherwise, if you don't practice swiping it off, some danged little gremlin will switch it on while you're sleeping, and when you need it most, your fingerprints will be embedded in the trigger but the gun won't go boom. That's a bad thing.

To restate, no, I do not see where 1911s need a manual safety. Let's see how far outta context this one can be taken.

Somewhere between light competition triggers on a semi-auto and the DA pull of a revolver there is a point, and on one side of the point it is a really good idea to have a manual safety
Good idea on the basis of what?

Legal liability? If the gun has been built, shipped, tested used under the most extreme conditions (read about the Miami PD's testing of the Glock), and is in use by PDs everywhere, who can realistically and convincingly make the case that Glocks are a legal timebomb?

I do not think Glocks are unsafe. They are, however, unforgiving of unsafe practices.
I see this as perception, not reality. There's not a huge dataset of NDs with lots of detail (at least not that I know of) in which we could find patterns.

At first glance, it could appear that Frontsight has had an inordinate number of NDs in the last 7.5, almost 8, years.
http://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5

I daresay that if the number of students trained were compared to FAS, LFI, Gunsite, et al. in the same period of time one would have to conclude that these were statistical anomalies.

In any event, 5 incidents, 2 with SIGs, 2 with 1911s, 1 with a Glock. The culprits are Rule 2, Rule 3 and unsafe equipment combos.

That is not the gun's fault.
In that we very much agree. It's never the gun's fault no matter what it's pedigree.

El Tejon
November 1, 2006, 08:45 AM
Perhpas it is a function of where you live, Confederate?

Around here many people carry the 1911. I have no numbers. Perhaps we can get funding for a survey?:D

Modern autoloaders do not a Condition One carry as the militree contracts specify that it not be present. I find it odd though. The very same milicrats and policicrats that shake in their panties about 1911s welcome Glocks.

The cocked hammer is seen as a potential liability on the 1911, but since the Glock is out of sight, it is out of mind.:D

45auto
November 1, 2006, 08:56 AM
I'm not sure it was ever in "vogue" to be honest. That's really a question and not a fact. I say that because the LEO community went from revolvers to DA type autos. Armed forces, as I understand it, carried the 1911 with the hammer down and empty chamber. That was 20 years ago and they went to a DA type.

I'd guess there are more C&L carry now than ever. More 1911's are sold than ever, I've read, and the shooting sports have more members that would use a 1911 style, combined than ever I believe.

Could be wrong though. ;)

usp9
November 1, 2006, 09:17 AM
C & L is not my personal preference because it involves having to do TWO operations to fire a weapon instead of ONE. When I draw, all I want to have to do is pull the trigger. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Shooting.

Sistema1927
November 1, 2006, 09:25 AM
It's never the gun's fault no matter what it's pedigree.

With one exception, the Japanese Type 94. External sears are always a bad idea.

Cocked & Locked
November 1, 2006, 10:16 AM
Why is Cocked and Locked Out of Vogue? :neener:

It's not "out of vogue" for me obviously. That's been my gun forum name for many moons...not as many moons on THR as elsewhere.

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL523/3082611/9381895/145234121.jpg

jeepmor
November 1, 2006, 10:17 AM
My witness can do it. If you run C&L, you'll simply need to train to draw, put tension on trigger once aimed and then release safety. BOOM!

The ex-swat CCW instructor said this is how they trained for swat entries when 1911's were in hand. I tried it with my Witness, works fine. You squeeze trigger and release the safety, it goes boom. Kind of a weird method, I'll just carry it unlocked with the heavy DA to make it one single operation. Longer pull, but simpler with point and click.

jeepmor

klover
November 1, 2006, 10:57 AM
I loved my 1911's many years ago until I found a few times my clothes had unlocked them.

Now I love my autos DA first shot, and am new to trying DAO on hamerless revolvers. Somewhere on THR I read that 80% of all defense shootings are done in DA mode.

I'm not SWAT. Just a Joe who wants to level the odds against criminals. To this end, I believe the best defensive stance is a hamerless revolver in my pocket with my hand on it. You need not reveal you have a weapon until you shoot through your pocket.

Can't think of a faster "presentation" with no consequences if defense is not warrented.

two tone
November 1, 2006, 10:58 AM
that is a nice colt.

anyways this takes me back to the post about 1911's being outdated. This is essentially the same dicussion.

however i dont think cocked and locked is out of vogue. on the contrary. it is probably more vogue than ever. though having a hammer on a gun is sort of outdated.

DogBonz
November 1, 2006, 10:59 AM
LAWYERS!!!:fire:

PaulBk
November 1, 2006, 12:47 PM
Cuz DAO works just fine for many of us?

-PB

Coronach
November 1, 2006, 01:17 PM
Good idea on the basis of what?

Legal liability? If the gun has been built, shipped, tested used under the most extreme conditions (read about the Miami PD's testing of the Glock), and is in use by PDs everywhere, who can realistically and convincingly make the case that Glocks are a legal timebomb?I get the idea that you did not read through my whole post before you replied. I agree with you that Glocks are not unsafe. They're just as safe as the person using them. Where we disagree is on the idea of light-triggered 1911s requiring manual safeties. A .5 lb pull tweaked SA game-gun trigger is different, from a safety standpoint, from a multi-lb DA trigger on a revolver that has to cock a hammer, rotate a cylinder and then cause a loud noise. Is it a qualitative difference? Perhaps not, in view of the modern striker-fired systems that try to split the difference and muddy the waters. But it is certainly a quantitative one (lbs of force required, distance travelled), and as the Soviets said, quantity has a quality all its own.

Mike

SeanSw
November 1, 2006, 01:25 PM
I do not own a pistol capable of C&L carry but I would be quite pleased if there was a DAO pistol with a trigger like my Smith. I am becoming a great fan of DA revolver shooting and find no lack of speed or control using it. There's nothing like a crisp single action but if you could name a semi auto that resembles a good revolver I'd probably buy it.

noops
November 1, 2006, 01:27 PM
I actually think they're back in vogue. Sig has their new P220 SAO and P220 Carry SAO, as well as the X-5 competition pistols. USP's and compacts are often carried C&L. And look at the 1911 market, it seems to be exploding:

1) Smith and Wesson's fairly new line of 1911's
2) Ed Brown
3) Rock River arms
4) Springfield
5) Wilson
6) Les Baer
7) NightHawk really seems to be taking off
8) STI
9) Dan Wesson (CZ's)

And then there's ton's of customizer's and tuners out there that seem to be doing well like Hilton Yam, Jardine, Yost-Bonitz, Nowlin, etc.

I'd say they're making quite the comeback these days.

p.s. I carry a 1911 C&L, a USPc C&L, or a Glock.

N

two tone
November 1, 2006, 01:31 PM
10) Sig Saur
11) Taurus

Coronach
November 1, 2006, 02:35 PM
What is old is new again.

I think that the industry in general is coming around to the ideas that many shooters never forgot: C&L is good, the .45 is fine, and a single stack magazine means a nice, comfortable grip. That all adds up to 1,911. ;)

Now, if only there would be some serious interest in FN's HP lineup, too...it is always rumoured to be on the chopping block.

Mike

kengrubb
November 1, 2006, 02:54 PM
I get the idea that you did not read through my whole post before you replied.
I'm not sure why. I picked thru and responded to several of your points.

A .5 lb pull tweaked SA game-gun trigger is different, from a safety standpoint, from a multi-lb DA trigger on a revolver that has to cock a hammer, rotate a cylinder and then cause a loud noise.
When TSHF, you won't be able to tell the difference between an 8 ounce pull trigger and an 18 pound pull trigger. Pull trigger, gun go Boom. Safety practices and adherance to Rule #3 are the only thing that keep folks from putting a round where they don't want it or when they don't want it.

Gordon Fink
November 1, 2006, 04:55 PM
As others have said, cocked-and-locked carry is probably more popular than ever. However, mechanically speaking, a cocked, single-action handgun is more dangerous than an uncocked, double-action handgun or a partially cocked, safe-action pistol. That said, a mechanical failure is vastly less likely than a user error.

~G. Fink

torpid
November 1, 2006, 05:45 PM
When TSHF, you won't be able to tell the difference between an 8 ounce pull trigger and an 18 pound pull trigger. Pull trigger, gun go Boom. Safety practices and adherance to Rule #3 are the only thing that keep folks from putting a round where they don't want it or when they don't want it.

Even if I was being extremely careful, if my trigger were to somehow catch or snag on something (other than my finger) I think I'd prefer the 18 pound trigger over the 8 oz one in that scenario.

Or a safety (that's not on the trigger ;) ).

KD5NRH
November 1, 2006, 06:57 PM
Sounds like a couple of former 1911 carrriers need to invest in maintaining their guns and holsters properly. A new plunger spring, safety plunger, and if need be, safety just isn't that expensive, and a properly maintained 1911 thumb safety isn't going to just click off from your shirt brushing it.

10-Ring
November 1, 2006, 08:52 PM
Now, I have more rounds shot from DA/SA & DAO handguns but over the course of the last 18 months, SA guns (1911s and BHP) have won me over to the world of C&L and really like it!

Magnumite
November 1, 2006, 09:16 PM
The Glock does have a safety, as does the 1911.

The 1911's safety is in its thumb, grip and, for some makers, in the firing pin area. I don't understand no safety on a 1911, either passive or active. Sounds like a time bomb to me. An accident will occur without one.

The Glock's safety is on the trigger. Without the trigger pulled, there is no bangie.

And traditional double action autos are just as accurate on the first double action shot as on the following single action shots in a string. It is just a matter of training, lots of dry fire and lots of practice. Now some guns are smoother than others in regards to the trigger quality.

albanian
November 1, 2006, 10:34 PM
"Because in general, as a society we've moved away from thinking and logic, and toward feelings"

This may be true but the sword cuts both ways. There are probably more people who carry and own 1911s because of certain feelings than because they thought it out. Most people who carry 1911s are brainwashed into thinking that it is somehow more of a "man's" gun or something.

C&L is fine if you don't mind the fact that you will NEVER have the option to just pull the trigger on a dud round and have it go bang. Pratice your tap rack and bang or whatever you are calling it now.

The fact is, in the time it takes to learn to safely carry C&L, you can learn how to shoot DA/SA and have a better set-up.

It takes some time and effort but you can learn to shoot DA/SA just fine. I did it and I will never go back to the old SA only pistols for carry. I have moved on. For range plinking and target practice they are fine but for serious self defense, you should keep it as simple as possible.

The best set-up I have seen so far is the SIG DA/SA with de-cock only. No safety needed or wanted yet it is without doubt the safest pistol set-up there is. SIG 220 beats 1911 in just about every catagory including accuracy most of the time. If you are talking about similar priced guns, the SIG 220 will out preform most 1911s. There are some +$2000 1911s that will shoot rings around almost anything but they are for target and not carry.

I wonder how many people would put up with SA only guns if the SIG 220 was our first military semi-auto pistol instead of the 1911. If we issued SIG 220s in WWI and WWII, I doubt that more than a few people would even consider owning a 1911 style pistol for defense. That is why we have moved from thinking to feeling. The SIG 220 is the thinking man's 1911.

BullfrogKen
November 2, 2006, 02:14 AM
albanian said: C&L is fine if you don't mind the fact that you will NEVER have the option to just pull the trigger on a dud round and have it go bang. Pratice your tap rack and bang or whatever you are calling it now.

Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again.


albanian said: The SIG 220 is the thinking man's 1911


"Seriously, we didn't even know you guys were still around."

"Next time do a little research."


I guess I like being a caveman.

Magnumite
November 2, 2006, 07:27 AM
Well, I guess since more of our military units are going back to the 1911, they must be feeling something more than thinking about it. Hmmm, a kinder gentler Marine.

Yarrite! :neener:

clt46910
November 2, 2006, 08:31 AM
I went from learning on 1911's and Smith Mod 10's to the Wondernines to giving up any single action and having only DA so I could carry either auto or revolver and have to think only the same thing, just pull the trigger. Now back to my 1911's and Smith revolvers. Not that I don't have other guns. I also own, shoot and carry a Sig 228 and a Glock 19 once in a while. But mostly my 1911's.

It is what your training is. It does not matter what gun I pick up, I know just from the muscle memory what I have in my hand. Train, train, train...can not say it enough..,there is no such thing as too much training. Even if you can not shoot that much. Handle you gun everyday and get use to how it operates and feels in your hand, operate it, load and unload it. Not any different then a ball player carrying around a ball all the time to make it a part of their life and muscle memory. To get really good, you have to do the same thing. Not just carry it around on your belt and shoot it once a month.

As far as Locked and Cocked. You also have a grip safety on the 1911, not just the thumb safety. But again, it comes back to training and maintaining your gun. Regardless of the type of gun, they all have to be maintained to remain safe and in good working order.

Marshall
November 2, 2006, 08:41 AM
Nothing wrong with C&L! I never knew it was out of Vogue? I figured the uninformed were just scared of it.

Glockfan.45
November 2, 2006, 09:03 AM
C&L is the only way to carry IMHO. If I have to draw under stress in a hurry the last thing I need to do is remember to chamber a round.

CDH
November 2, 2006, 09:57 AM
I think only one person in this thread actually acknowledged that the 1911 has a grip safety.

Here's the deal: Assume first that you are carrying your 1911 C&L Pistol in a proper holster (trigger guard totally enclosed).

If your clothing swipes off the safety (that's never happened to me.. but what do I know?), there are two safeties still in play; the grip safety and the ultimate safety we call a "trigger".

With the thumb safety off, you would still have to depress the grip safety to be able to fire the weapon. So let's say that for some unfathomable reason that the grip safety were to be depressed, not momentarily, but for a considerable period of time (how in the world would THAT happen while carrying?.. but I digress..).
But even with the thumb safety off AND the grip safety depressed (both "by accident" at the SAME time; AND the grip safety being HELD DOWN by something?... jeez, what a stretch), the pistol would STILL be safe because the trigger is completely enclosed by the holster.

You guys who are afraid of the 1911 safety "system" really go out of your way to conjure up a situation where it will go off without your willing consent.

Carter

hankdatank1362
November 2, 2006, 10:54 AM
Beacuse my first 1911 was a cheap POS Firestorm, and all it took was one good fart to de-activate the manual safety.

CDH
November 2, 2006, 11:10 AM
Beacuse my first 1911 was a cheap POS Firestorm, and all it took was one good fart to de-activate the manual safety.

Well yea, but I'm talking about a high quality 1911 designed pistol as represented by Colt, for example, that's made with high quality parts to high quality standards and works properly as designed.

You do correctly point out, however, that most of our problems in life can be remedied by following a proper diet. :what:

The next time your POS Firestorm goes off inadvertantly, just look around and blame the dog.
That works in most cases.

Carter

progunner1957
November 2, 2006, 11:19 AM
It seems to me that it would be easier to have a ND with a Glock or a DA revolver than with a 1911 in condition one, yet many people think a Glock or a DA revolver is somehow safer than a 1911.:confused:

People who get the twitchies from being in the presence of a 1911 in condition one have obviously never heard of "The Universal Law Of Guns," to wit:

If you don't want the gun to go *BOOM* don't pull the trigger!

Duh!!:D

Any well made 1911 from a reputable maker whose firing or safety mechanism is not damaged in some way (usually caused by some tool with a big file who thinks he is a gunsmith) will not ND without some negligent handling from a human.

1911s are little hand held machines. Machines do not ND. Humans ND.

Oh, and if you want an action job done on your 1911, send it to a professional 1911 'smith who knows what he's doing!!

Glockfan.45
November 2, 2006, 10:54 PM
I have Glocks and a 1911. If I were able to carry I would feel safer with one in the pipe of my 1911 than any Glock I own. Simple reason for this is the grip saftey and manual safety. Now I am not saying the Glock is unsafe, just the 1911 has more fail safes.

makarovnik
November 2, 2006, 11:54 PM
I'm pretty sure it's a combination of things:

Invention of the double action pistol
Marketing (supposedly the newer the idea, the better it is, which is often B.S.)
Uneducated pistol packers

There are plenty of double action and DAO pistols that are safe to carry with one in the chamber. Many have a decent "first shot" trigger pull. IMO some of these are quicker to get into action because you don't have to disengage a manual safety before firing. I feel safe carrying many of the striker fired pistols around today with one in the chamber.

I really like the idea behind the Sig DAK trigger. It's almost as light as the Glock but it offers re-strike capability without cycling the slide (in case of a light firing pin strike or whatever).

I also like carrying the 1911 cocked and locked. It's an old tried and true straight forward design. You can easily see what's going on with the very visible external hammer and safety. I for one also like the grip safety. Either way, as long as I feel safe with one in the chamber, any of these guns work for me.

Chuck R.
November 3, 2006, 12:20 AM
I hope C&L isnít out of vogue, I just went back to it a little while ago. I used to carry a 1911 C&L, till the day I had the dreaded safety swiped off while holstered. It was a cheap holster without a slide guard.

I then went to the DA/SA auto and trained religiously to overcome the DA to SA transition, a boatload of double tap drills. I even got pretty good at it, still not as fast/smooth as a 1911. My SIG 220ST is a pretty good pistol accurate and reliable. Bottom line up front, Iíve timed my self on getting that first shot off with both pistols and Iím slower with the SIG. I have to concentrate to keep that 1st shot in the group. My 1911s all have superior triggers and itís the same for every shot.

What changed me back was my Baer Stinger, and a Sparks holster. Thereís just no way that safety is getting swiped off, the holster is molded to it. The trigger is a consistent crisp 4LBs, not too heavy, not too light. I too like the grip safety on a 1911, but then again Iíve never had a problem with one even when using a high thumb grip.

So when I CCW, itís the 1911. The SIG stays in a pistol safe in my nightstand. I figure if something does go bump in the night and Iím half-asleep Iíll want that long DA pull then.

Chuck

FTF
November 3, 2006, 12:56 AM
:) Why it went out of style? Who knows... probably a lot of factors.

My personal opinion is that the SA 1911 style pistol design is almost 100 years old. With all the new wiz-bang plastic guns the trend seems to be more toward DAO or DA for the first pull... most police and the military use Beretta 92's which follow that functioning. I guess maybe more people are 'used' to a DA pistol now? That's what you see on TV perhaps.

One thing that has confused me was when I was in the military... the M16A2 is basically a SA... we carried ours cocked and locked and never thought anything about it. One in the chamber, safety on and if you flip that lever, it's SA. Same thing, at least in my eyes, as a 1911 pistol. Maybe people just think it's safer because it's a 'rifle' and you can't stick it in your pocket and somehow shoot the family jewels. Flawed logic perhaps? Who knows... I know what MY preference is and being in vogue has nothing to do with it.. I just shoot it betta :)

BullfrogKen
November 3, 2006, 01:11 AM
makarovnik said: I really like the idea behind the Sig DAK trigger. It's almost as light as the Glock but it offers re-strike capability without cycling the slide (in case of a light firing pin strike or whatever).

Once again I ask:

Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again.

Why is this ability even pointed to as an advantage?


I don't think a cocked and locked single action is out of vogue. More companies offer more variations of the 1911 today than did when they were "in vouge". Traditionally SA/DA companies like Sig and S&W have even decided to enter the market. Those guys fought like hell to unseat the 1911 in IPSC's heyday as THE competition pistol, from giving away ammo, to supplying pistols at no cost, sponsoring shooters on payroll, even developing new cartridges for those DA/SA pistols.

To see those companies now investing in the market, after IPSC's popularity has declined from its zenith, speaks volumes. They certainly could have gone the "me too" route back then at a lot less expense. But, the fact that they chose to do it now tells me a lot of people still like a cocked and locked 1911.

kengrubb
November 3, 2006, 04:26 AM
There are probably more people who carry and own 1911s because of certain feelings than because they thought it out.
Speculation at best.

C&L is fine if you don't mind the fact that you will NEVER have the option to just pull the trigger on a dud round and have it go bang. Pratice your tap rack and bang or whatever you are calling it now.
I see a serious problem in relying upon the specific features of any gun. If you practice pulling the trigger rather than tap-racking the gun because it's a SIG and it has second strike capability, if there comes the day when you have to pick up a different gun and protect yourself, you might not make it. Tap-rack works for ANY semiauto pistol. SA, SA/DA, DAO, Glock, Squeeze-Cocker, or something else.

Then there's the issue of whether it's smart to second strike on a dud round. Statistically, I don't know. When I've tap-racked rounds outta my gun that didn't go Boom, after the training exercise I picked up the round, looked at it to try and see the problem, and tried running the round thru the gun again. Most of the time, they will go boom a second time. But, I'm not necessarily a statistically significant body of data.

The fact is, in the time it takes to learn to safely carry C&L, you can learn how to shoot DA/SA and have a better set-up.
Practicing safety off when drawing, and safety on before reholstering, is no different than practicing decock before reholstering. There is NO difference. With a safety/decock pistol, like a Beretta 92F, it's simply safety off when drawing, decock/safety on before reholstering. Virtually no difference to learn and practice this.

DA/SA requires more training time because of the crunchenticker effect. Some discount it, but I've seen very experienced, very skilled, very disciplined shooters consistently throw away that first shot with SIGs and other DA/SA pistols. It's probably why SIG now makes both SAO and DAO (DAK in SIG nomenclature) models.
http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=151
http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=93

For range plinking and target practice they are fine but for serious self defense, you should keep it as simple as possible.
Any gun will do, if you will do.

it is without doubt the safest pistol set-up there is
With the exception of pot metal POS guns, guns are neither safe nor unsafe. Shooters are either safe or unsafe.

There are some +$2000 1911s that will shoot rings around almost anything but they are for target and not carry.
One can easily drop a load of money on a 1911 for carry. It'll shoot well and reliably. They can reliably run hundreds of rounds thru them over the weekend under grueling conditions, without cleaning, and do fine. I've seen $2K and $3K 1911s that were carried, shot, dropped on the ground, and they kept on going.

The SIG 220 is the thinking man's 1911.
I've done a bit of firearms training, and the guns I consistently see students carrying are 1911s and Glocks. Only occasionally do I see a SIG.

c_yeager
November 3, 2006, 05:53 AM
False premise, "Cocked and Locked" pistols have never been more popular than they are today. I seem to remember that even the military manual of arms for the 1911 called for carry in condition 2, and this was a common mode of carry for all single action pistols until recent decades. Not that it really matters because police generally werent even allowed the carry of such weapons untill recently anyways. Only today is it considered "normal" to carry any pistol in a "cocked and locked" condition, and there are even more choices than before. We still have the same BHPs and 1911s along with about 100 different manufactures of the 1911 platform, and now we get to add a number of CZs and a an HK or two to the mix along with whatever other obscure makes we can pick up.

DA/SA, DAO, and safeaction type pistols have largely taken away the revolver market, but they havent taken a thing away from the single action auto market, which has been growing by leaps and bounds.

Boats
November 3, 2006, 05:47 PM
The old FMs for the 1911 specify that C&L is fine if action with the enemy is imminent, otherwise, Condition 3.

C&L carry really, really, really, terrifies any shooter who can't walk and chew gum at the same time.:D ;)

Swiping the thumb safety off as the pistol comes up to fire is pretty much like breathing after training with the weapon for a decent interval. Who forgets to breathe?

DRMMR02
November 3, 2006, 06:06 PM
Whatever happened to "Don't trust safeties"? It seems like a chambered and cocked weapon with only a mechanism keeping it from going off is unwise.

BullfrogKen
November 3, 2006, 06:35 PM
DRMMR02 said: Whatever happened to "Don't trust safeties"? It seems like a chambered and cocked weapon with only a mechanism keeping it from going off is unwise.


"Don't trust safeties" . . . to make up for poor or stupid gun handling.

Having a holstered cocked and locked gun is not unsafe. Handling a cocked and locked gun is not unsafe. A practitioner with poor or stupid gun handling skills make any design gun dangerous to those around them.

pale horse
November 3, 2006, 07:15 PM
From my experience in the military (Marine Corps and Army) as well as being a firearms instructor training negates feelings. More often than not people want the have the illusion of safety. With the "Trigger Safety" is a poor design and people still buy it because with Glock its three in one safeties. Bottom line people are stupid and will buy the latest and greatest so they can feel safe.

The guys from Combat Applicaitons Group, USMC FAST, DET 1 and other men who know what the hell they are doing use the 1911 because they train hard. They also understand the weapons capabilities and limitations. These men train to engage targets with the weapon Cocked and Locked. If you train hard with the weapon you will not have to worry about "OH gosh did I take all the safeties off, is the ammo in the mag, is there a round in the chamber?" COME ON GUYS MAN UP and train with your friggin weapons.

In a conversation with a CAG Operator he informed me that the untrained shooters the various new designs, guys who know what they are doing use the 1911 style.

If you dont feel comfortable carrying C&L dont. If you want to pratice and shooting DA/SA go ahead. In my experience people shoot SA better than DA.

Training Negates feelings and ignorance.

PH

albanian
November 3, 2006, 07:34 PM
"Once again I ask:

Quote:
Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again.

Why is this ability even pointed to as an advantage?"

Because if you are a revolver shooter or used to DA autos, it is instinct. You will fire the next shot before your brain even starts thinking about what to do. With a revolver, it moves another round into play. With a DA auto, you get to pull the trigger again and get a another chance. If you are used to this, it can be an advantage.

I have never had a factory centerfire defense type round not fire with a second hammer strike with the first was a dud. Rimfires don't count and handloads don't count. Every one of them in my life has fired with a second hit. Does that mean everyone will in the future? I don't know but it seems to me that most of the time they will.

The thing is, pulling the trigger again is automatic and faster than ANY other system. Pretty much if the hammer is dropping, you probably don't have a jam so the chances are that it is a dud and that the dud will fire on the next hammer strike. It is possible that there is no round in the chamber but unless your mag dropped out of your gun or your slide stop failed, this doesn't happen often. In fact, I have never had this happen but I am sure it does happen sometimes.

I am not expert and I am not claiming to be. I am not a professional shooter. I shoot more than most shooters but less some. I just want to keep the system I use as simple as I can. I use SIG as an example but I don't even own a SIG anymore. I prefer my Beretta 92G to any other pistol at the moment.

pale horse
November 3, 2006, 07:55 PM
"Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again."

The correct answer is not a single one. However, I have heard the Police Academy Firearms Instructors same that stuipd comment. Hence not a reputable school at all. Police Academy instructors are bound to deal with some idiots so they need an idiot proof weapon and need idiot proof techeniques.

PH

BullfrogKen
November 3, 2006, 08:10 PM
albanian said: Because if you are a revolver shooter or used to DA autos, it is instinct. You will fire the next shot before your brain even starts thinking about what to do.

Instinct is not a justification for a technique. The manual of arms for manipulating a revolver is different than for a semi-automatic. If one decides to swap between carrying the two types of guns regularly, then the practitioner needs to put in enough practice to be able to discern what to do depending on which gun is in his hand at that moment.


It is possible to train to do a tap, rack, assess/bang on "instinct" as well.


Don't disparage a type of action you don't like based on some non-benefit another system offers. Just say you don't like it.

I have shot enough rounds to have factory ammo fail and not fire on second hits. I've been in training and seen others have it happen to them, too. When a round doesn't go off, the most reliable way to get the gun back in action is to eject it. The tap-rack is universally taught because it is a non-diagnostic method to get the gun back into action regardless of the cause of the failure to fire.

orionengnr
November 3, 2006, 08:22 PM
Ummm...news flash.
It's not "out of vogue"

While we are here, I have to ask....

How many times have you had a centerfire cartridge fail to fire?

In about 40 years of shooting, I can count them on one hand...and have about three fingers left over. I do not consider "second-strike capability" high on my list.

I'll stick with tap-rack-bang as a standard practice. It will work with any semi-auto.

YMMV.

Marshall
November 3, 2006, 09:31 PM
I have to side on the side of odds too. I must be the luckiest SOB on earth because I can count how many times I have had premium factory ammo not fire on one hand too, and I have four fingers and a thumb left over.

albanian
November 4, 2006, 09:02 AM
"How many times have you had a centerfire cartridge fail to fire?

In about 40 years of shooting, I can count them on one hand...and have about three fingers left over. I do not consider "second-strike capability" high on my list."

That is sort of my point. It has happened to me more than a few times but it is far from often. I would say maybe 10 times in my life with high quality ammo that was meant for SD. In each of those cases, a second pull of the trigger did the trick.

I am not saying second strike is a huge advantage but it is an advantage. Why not take every advantage you can get and try to eliminate Murphy's Law? You have to judge the merits for yourself. For me, I like the idea even if it is only a 1 in 5000 chance that it will ever be needed in a gunfight. That is what I roughly calculate the odds being for a light hammer strike/hard primer. Give or take 20,000:D

You can still do your "tap dance bada bing" or whatever but the fastest and easiest thing to do is just pull the trigger again. This is where DA shooters have an advantage over SA shooters. While the 1911 guy is clearing a dud, the DA guy is already shooting without missing a beat. In a gunfight, the 1911 is dead in this case. Tell me THAT is not an adavntage! Most gun fights happen within 21 feet and most of the time there is no chance of a reload. I doubt much cover can be used in 21 feet so my guess is, the faster you can get rounds on target the better. You have a jam or a dud, you are dead. A dud in a DA auto means a fraction of a second later, you are most likely putting rounds on target again with no loss of grip or sight picture. I dud with a 1911 means you are probably dead. Sorry but I consider it an advantage if only a small one. Isn't that what it is all about?

People will argue over the smallest things like which bullet weight or shape is best or which caliber to pick. I think as long as you are choosing between 9mm .40 and .45, the choice of caliber is not as important as second strike.

jon_in_wv
November 4, 2006, 12:32 PM
I didn't realize that when I carried my Hipower of my Star BM I was "out of vogue"! I better get with it!

BullfrogKen
November 5, 2006, 12:22 AM
albanian said: Tell me THAT is not an adavntage!

OK . . . (quietly and slowly) . . . It is not an advantage.

albanian said: You have a jam or a dud, you are dead. A dud in a DA auto means a fraction of a second later, you are most likely putting rounds on target again with no loss of grip or sight picture. I dud with a 1911 means you are probably dead.

Dead, huh? You do realize that the vast majority of people shot with a handgun, unless the wound is a headshot, will go on to survive their injuries, don't you?

I guess if one stands still, you'll be taking rounds. If you stand still period, shooting, not shooting, admiring your handiwork, whatever . . . the best you can do is tie.

albanian said: You can still do your "tap dance bada bing" or whatever but the fastest and easiest thing to do is just pull the trigger again. . . . Sorry but I consider it an advantage if only a small one.

"BullfrogKen said: Name one reputable school that teaches the immediate action drill for "click" on a semi-automatic is pull the trigger again."

pale horse said: The correct answer is not a single one.

Not a single reputable trainer teaches that response for a failure to fire in a semi-auto. Not one. You can be an advocate for it if you wish. However, the consensus amongst the training community disagrees with your practice. It is not a benefit.


I suggest you consider seeking some reputable, professional training.


The TRB will handle most malfunctions a semi-auto will experience. You cite a failure to fire happened to you maybe 10 times. Yes, it is rare to see a bad round. Failures to feed, extract, or eject while also rare, are more likely occurances. But, a second pull won't clear those stoppages. Have you measured how much time it takes for you to diagnose which failure you have experienced and apply the effective remedial action of your two techinques? The diagnostic act itself not only takes time, but also diverts attention away from your real problem. Unless you happen to believe your Beretta is perfect, and the gods smile upon you, practice the TRB instead of disparaging it.



I find it ridiculous a second strike ability is still being used by DA/SA advocates as a reason to criticize the SAO, C&L systems. Valid reasons exist that make others more appropriate in some circumstances and applications. This simply isn't among them.

kengrubb
November 5, 2006, 06:11 AM
albanian, in very simple terms, I see a huge advantage in relying upon tap-rack malfunction clearance over a second trigger pull.

As you and others have said, duds don't happen all that often and even when they do a second strike will almost always make them go bang. I don't worry about duds not going boom. I do worry about a number of other things some of which occur on the range while others do not, but all of which do occur in gunfights.

Guns sometimes don't go boom because the magazine springs are weakened or fatigued and the next round doesn't feed. I have Wolff springs in my Glock mags, but as good as those are they ain't perfect. Second strike won't clear these.

After TSHF, sometimes SH. The slide gets bumped or impeded and the gun fails to feed the next round. Hammy fists, limp-wristing, firing from a retention position too close to the chest, unintentional thumb crossover holds, bumping against a wall or table or some other nearby object, and probably a thousand and one other things. Second strike also won't clear these.

The point you're making about ammo reliability--and justification for second strike reliance--is IMHO standing on principle over an incredibly unlikely occurrence but ignoring the danger inherent in your training from a much more likely occurrence. It's impossible to know when the gun doesn't go boom whether it's a dud round, a failure to feed, slide not completely cycling, etc. Tap-rack solves all of these. Second strike only solves a very small number of these.

Only a double feed won't be cleared by tap-rack, but if one practices clearing those (lock-rip-rack-rack-rack-insert-rack) even they can be cleared in an amazing timeframe. When I took FAS-2 (now called Defensive Handgun (http://www.firearmsacademy.com/DefHdgn.htm)), the instructor, Tom Haeflinger, was demoing the COF. I think he was going somewhere between double and triple speed on each phase of the COF, and he was shooting all fives with an HK P7. In one phase, he experienced a double-feed, and the P7 has a bit of a reputation for being difficult to clear a double-feed. Tap-rack-click. Lock-rip-rack-rack-rack-insert-rack. Bang-bang-bang. He finished the COF within the time limit and he'd shot all fives.

Magnumite
November 5, 2006, 08:02 AM
Kengrubb, nice post. That last paragraph says it all. Thanks.:cool:

Confederate
November 6, 2006, 01:11 AM
Glock do not lack safety. They are the safest guns in the market.
Well, every police agency and department that has gone to Glocks has seen an increase in accidental discharges. Lack of training? Perhaps.

If you won't trust a Glock, then don't trust a DA revolver. Both are Condition 0 guns. Point gun, pull trigger. No active safeties or decockers to fuss with. If you believe that a 12 pound trigger will keep you safe, but a 5 pound trigger is unsafe, then you're violating Rule #3.
I think I would trust myself with one, but it has been a difficult gun to master and there are other issues related to gun retention that make having a light trigger, no safety gun a problem. In Israel, according to one gun writer, carrying a cocked and locked auto is asking for trouble. He's been on the verge of a few fist fights about it, in fact. I strongly endorse it, but were I a chief of police, I'd not move my department into Glocks, but Beretta 92s with 115 gr. JHP.

Massad Ayoob always talks about the legal problems involved with shooting a revolver single action. Even if a good guy fires double action, prosecutors often will try to make juries think otherwise. A 5-pound Glock pull and a 3-pound revolver pull ain't that different. Putting a safety on a trigger doesn't really mitigate things. I wouldn't feel comfortable now carrying a Glock, but with time, who knows?

Hammer decockers don't make a whole lot of sense when one can carry cocked and locked. And many safeties, like those on Smith & Wesson autos (659s, 645s and 6059s) often have to be engaged on officer's weapons. Switching from DA to SA is difficult to master and often the first shot is the most important. Again, Ayoob makes it sound easy, but in reality my thumb has a lot of problem disengaging a safety. To have to do that, then pull a long double action just takes too much time.

The Taurus 92 cock 'n lock Beretta look-alikes may be the best way to go, period. I know many people carry 1911 .45s, but they cost too much in my book for police use. Out of the box, the 1911 won't touch the reliability of a modern pistol.

Boats
November 6, 2006, 01:26 AM
Out of the box, the 1911 won't touch the reliability of a modern pistol.

Do you have any other stereotypes you'd like to share?:rolleyes:

mljdeckard
November 6, 2006, 02:18 AM
If it is out of vogue, someone forgot to tell me. :)

Waywatcher
November 6, 2006, 02:43 AM
When was cocked and locked ever truly "in vogue"? :confused:

Looking back on military, police, and CCW history it seems like it never was.

BullfrogKen
November 6, 2006, 03:29 AM
Waywatcher said: When was cocked and locked ever truly "in vogue"?

It became "in vogue" when this guy who is now dead started telling us all we could do it safely, and stop worrying about it. Some dead Marine by the name of Jeff Cooper.

Confederate said: Out of the box, the 1911 won't touch the reliability of a modern pistol.

There's a guy here who has laid down the glove to anyone who wishes to go up against his "box stock" 1911 with any other currently produced system to see who'll fail first.

Maybe he'll come back and remind everyone it still stands.

1911Tuner
November 6, 2006, 06:38 AM
Quote:

>Maybe he'll come back and remind everyone it still stands.<
***********

That woulda been me...and it does. Lexington, NC. Say when. Bring lots of ammo and mags, or a friend to keep'em loaded, cause things get hot when ya play follow the leader...;)

Waywatcher
November 6, 2006, 08:07 AM
BullfrogKen said: It became "in vogue" when this guy who is now dead started telling us all we could do it safely, and stop worrying about it. Some dead Marine by the name of Jeff Cooper.

He hardly made it "in vogue". Cops still carried DA revolvers until they switched to DA automatics, military carried on an empty chamber until they switched to DA automatics, and as long as legal CCW has been around the "vogue" thing has certainly been DA.

My point is that for something to fall "out of vogue" it must be "in vogue" in the first place, which really wasn't the case.

Boats
November 6, 2006, 01:35 PM
Maybe we need to be more precise? C&L was, and remains, in vogue, for that percentage of the handgun shooting population that shoots as much or more than it carries. It scares the bejeezus out of everyone else.

A citizen noted the hammer back on the 1911 carried in the waist band by Charlie Miller, Texas Ranger. The Citizen asks, "Isn't That Dangerous?" Charley replied, " I wouldn't carry the son of a bitch if it wasn't dangerous."

44AMP
November 6, 2006, 08:26 PM
I never realised they covered cocked and locked issue in such depth. I may have to add Vogue to my reading list.

The reason cocked and locked looks scary is because for a couple of hundred years all guns had something like a hammer, and when it was back, the gun was able to fire. How many flintlocks and caplocks have safeties? Until the last couple of decades how many guns with hammers had any kind of safety? A few auto pistols was all. All the rifles and shotguns with hammers, the hammer is the safety. So, a cocked gun is associated with being "dangerous", which actually, it is.

There may be a few exceptions, but generally this is true. You didn't cock the gun until you were ready to shoot, so a cocked gun means you are ready to shoot. And being ready to go off (shoot) looks dangerous to a lot of people.

DA autos didn't go anywhere much until the Walther P-38. And the P-38 only went big in Germany, where it had advantages for the German military. The idea pretty much faded away for the next 30 years, and then came on again, strong. The whole "Wundernine" thing. DA, double stack, it was what everybody wanted. Well, not everybody.:)

Look at the equipment under discussion here. Auto pistols, defensive/duty use; All the designs fall into two broad categories.

Those intended for military use, and everything else. The pistols are either designed to meet a military contract, or are designed, and then go looking for military/police contracts to fill.

Different design features have military priority. Police use may change the priority if features, and civilian use may change them yet again.

And the military, police, and even civilians change their mind about what is most important, from time to time.

My opinion is that SA autos are best for the military and civilians who know what they are doing. DA autos are best for police. Military, police and civilians who are not as knowledgeable/trained are best served by DA revolvers. People with no knowledge/training should run, call 911, use a baseball bat, contemplate their navel, open a dialogue with their assailant, or whatever other course of action seems reasonable to them.

The logic here is that, military combat, and civilian self defense are a case of identify target, shoot. Soldiers are supposed to shoot the enemy when they see him. When civilians need to shoot, they need to shoot. The SA auto shines in this regard.

Police, on the other hand, use the pistol as a threat of force much more often than they actually have to fire it. How often does an officer cover a suspect, ready to shoot, without actually having to shoot? Lots, from what people tell me. The DA auto with it's long (relatively) heavy first shot pull is a lot less likely to be fired unintentionally, in a high stress adrenaline pumped situation. Makes better sense to me for police work.

And then there is the Glock. Fantastic plastic. The greatrest thing ever. Combat tupperware. etc, etc. Radically different, requiring (slightly) different manual of arms. Neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat. Some people like them, some don't. Some people are obsessive about it.

Striker fired, "safety" on the trigger! And other "nontraditional" features. Where does this fit in? The argument rages.

Cocked and locked is no less safe than any other system. It is no slower either. For many years, police couldn't use hollowpoints, because they looked "scary" in beltloops. When the cops switched to autos, where the public couldn't see the spare ammo, they went to hollowpoints. Cocked and locked doesn't get it for uniform wear in a lot of places. Even in the military. But for action, or in preparation for action, cocked and locked is what serious people use.

BullfrogKen
November 6, 2006, 09:34 PM
Waywatcher said: Cops still carried DA revolvers until they switched to DA automatics, military carried on an empty chamber until they switched to DA automatics, and as long as legal CCW has been around the "vogue" thing has certainly been DA.

That population larely didn't get to choose what they carry, or how. Institutional mindset is hard to change; Col. Copper still affected it.

DA revolvers, the 1911, and the Hi-Power were the guns people who knew anything about or were serious carrying a gun used. It wasn't until the 80's that this new generation of DA/SA guns began to displace those systems.

44AMP said: How often does an officer cover a suspect, ready to shoot, without actually having to shoot?

Picking a weapon system to make up for violating the 4 Rules is a poor reason. We ought to focus on training not to violate the rules than encouraging it by picking an action more forgiving of the violation.

The Real Hawkeye
November 6, 2006, 11:16 PM
I'm not sure, but I think it was Jeff Cooper who related this story. A southern cop was observing a parade go by. A small boy was standing next to him and happened to notice that his 1911 .45 had the hammer cocked. He tugged on the cop's pants and when he looked down told him, "Hey, Mister, that gun's hammer's cocked." The cop looked down at him and said, "Yes, yes, that's right, sonny, it is." The boy said, "Well, isn't that dangerous?" To which the cop squatted all the way down to his level and replied, "You damned betcha."

DRMMR02
November 7, 2006, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Waywatcher said: Cops still carried DA revolvers until they switched to DA automatics, military carried on an empty chamber until they switched to DA automatics, and as long as legal CCW has been around the "vogue" thing has certainly been DA.
That population larely didn't get to choose what they carry, or how. Institutional mindset is hard to change; Col. Copper still affected it.

DA revolvers, the 1911, and the Hi-Power were the guns people who knew anything about or were serious carrying a gun used. It wasn't until the 80's that this new generation of DA/SA guns began to displace those systems.

Quote:
44AMP said: How often does an officer cover a suspect, ready to shoot, without actually having to shoot?
Picking a weapon system to make up for violating the 4 Rules is a poor reason. We ought to focus on training not to violate the rules than encouraging it by picking an action more forgiving of the violation.

What? Are you saying police shouldn't draw their weapons to cover a suspect if they're not going to shoot them? Because that is insane.


As for me, I don't think I will ever get into cocked and locked. I like carrying hammer down, safety on. I know that I can draw and turn off the safety very quickly, and firing in DA is easy. I know that 99.99% of the time while carrying as a civilian, I am not going to actually need to draw or fire. So I don't think I need to walk around with a gun that's just waiting to go off. Now if I'm in Iraq and I know there are BGs all over the place, then maybe it will be different. But I just don't see the small benefits of cocked and locked of DA/SA outweighing my desire for some extra safety here in the US.

4fingermick
November 7, 2006, 08:08 AM
I'm happy with Condition 1, but a lot of people who carry guns are a bit challenged and these days, hazards are assessed and elimated where possible. The powers to be have to think this way now: Condition 1 is dangerous if the operator is not exact in his use of the weapon (whyou are pointing it at people, it is a weapon, not just a gun) there is the potential for an accident. Ban Condition 1, no chance of an accident, simple. If they don't some smarta$$ed lawyer says, Mrs Felonmutha's little gangbanger would still be here if the officer had been more effective handling his weapon! How could the Dept allow this and place her lil boy at unnecessary risk? I'm dramitising this a bit, but you can see if an organisation allows a potentially dangerous practice to continue, it stand a chance of being bought to task over it. Assess the risk, eliminate it. Simple, Condition 1 bites the dust, sad but true. This is the way it is these days, I don't like it, it shouldn't be like it, but it is! Bugger! Mick.

CDH
November 7, 2006, 08:14 AM
DRMMR02 Said:
So I don't think I need to walk around with a gun that's just waiting to go off.

I don't know how to describe your ignorance about the mechanics of 1911's without it sounding insulting, so let me explain that I use the word "ignorance" in the classic sense ("the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.") rather than the way it's often used as an insult (which I do not intend).

You exemplify the large number of people who have never taken the time to learn the mechanics and operation of the 1911 pistol and therefore apply your misunderstanding of it as a prejudice ("just waiting to go off").

Just let me commend you on your decision to not carry a 1911 at all.
We're all safer for it. ;)

Carter

Waywatcher
November 7, 2006, 08:37 AM
BullfrogKen said:That population larely didn't get to choose what they carry, or how. Institutional mindset is hard to change; Col. Copper still affected it.

DA revolvers, the 1911, and the Hi-Power were the guns people who knew anything about or were serious carrying a gun used. It wasn't until the 80's that this new generation of DA/SA guns began to displace those systems.

I am not disputing what Jeff Cooper did for cocked & locked carry.

It's never been "in vogue" to carry a cocked & locked pistol, is my point.

For clarity...
Vogue [vohg]:The prevailing fashion, practice, or style

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