S&W Sigma as CCW weapon.


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wolfman01
November 1, 2006, 06:56 PM
OK, I'm not entirely happy with the Bersa as a CCW gun, due to it's rather dubious accuracy, and reliability. I rather like bullets to go where they are aimed, as well as don't want to be concerned if it's going to work right.

I spent some time chewing the fat with one of the reps at Academy today, and checked out the Sigma. Price at Academy is $348. He also gave me a phone number to a local range that rents guns, to see if they have one to try out, before I fork over the bucks.

So, my question is: What's the good, bad, and the ugly regarding the Sigma? TIA.

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News Shooter
November 1, 2006, 08:03 PM
The Sigma has a really tough trigger. But after a few hundred rounds it starts to smooth out and it is still a very reliable weapon. I carry the 9mm version.
There are plenty of other more expensive options, but this is a safe and reliable one for the money

Don Lu
November 1, 2006, 08:04 PM
whats up...
from what i have heard the sigma is very reliable and the take down and look is almost identical to glock, just doesnt have the proven record yet. It has a great price tag and i think comes in 9mm and .40 s&w. I dont care if they imitate glock as long as they work like glock. But during a discussion at the range/ gunshop the clerks were saying it is a great gun.

10-Ring
November 1, 2006, 08:08 PM
Try the search feature & you'll find several thread on the subject. But in short - it's mixed. I know a guy that really loves his Sigma....he has been shooting it for years now and just can't say anything bad about it.
Me, for poly guns, I really like HK's USPs and Glocks :D

RH822
November 1, 2006, 08:11 PM
I've never had a problem with mine. I am a sometime carrier of a Sigma
SW9VE and am considering getting a SW40VE just for kicks and giggles.

RH

wolfman01
November 1, 2006, 11:09 PM
Thanx. It sounds like it'll end up being a matter of how it feels when I find one to test fire. :cool:

BullfrogKen
November 1, 2006, 11:38 PM
One student brought his Sigma to a 3 day, Level III class this past weekend my local club.

He had brought it out earlier in May for a level II class. On day 2 he was using the instructor's spare Glock.

At last weekend's class it finally died completely, and he admitted he needed to find a better gun.

Srigs
November 2, 2006, 12:23 AM
I have put over 3000+ rounds through my 40VE with not a single problem. It is my HD gun and winter carry gun.

Coronach
November 2, 2006, 12:37 AM
As has been said, results are mixed. If you get a good one, it will probably be fine. The trigger is universally regarded as suboptimal, and reliability is spotty. There are many other guns I would consider before a Sigma, but I know a guy who has one as a CCW and it works fine. *shrug*

Personally, if I was looking at the Sigma, I would also look at the M&P compact series that is now coming online. They're brand new, so reliability is unknown, but the ergos should be great and the trigger is fine. General size/shape/concealability should be similar to the Sigma.

Mike

plateshooter
November 2, 2006, 06:30 AM
I can only speak from my experience. I am quite happy with the 9GVE that I have. When I bought it, the guy behind the counter field stripped the Sigma and a Glock and laid them out on the counter. I was amazed, as they looked almost identical. I find the one I have to be accurate and reliable and I like the trigger on it for a ccw gun. I shoot mine on a regular basis and feel I have learned the trigger well. I do not want a light trigger on my ccw gun. I have other guns with much lighter triggers for shooting paper and wacking plates. When the Sigma goes off, it is because of a deliberate effort to pull the trigger. That is the only safety there is on that gun, and I feel it is a good one. Mine was $289.00 and I believe my money was well spent.

MrTwigg
November 2, 2006, 12:15 PM
It's a copy of a Glock.
It has a horrible trigger


Get the Glock.
It has a better trigger and it's not a copy of a Glock.

denfoote
November 2, 2006, 03:53 PM
The ergonomics of the Sigma are superior to anything that has ever been in my hand!! That said, the trigger does suck, but so does the PPK/S. They were designed that way on the theory that a heavy trigger lessened the chance of an NG. I have an old SW40F that has not given me any problems!! I carry it in a Bianchi Black Widow.

Skywarp
November 2, 2006, 04:32 PM
The ergos are decent but not as nice as P99, p2000

The action and trigger are near exact copies of a glock but the trigger sucks.


Based on that, I wouldnt. With all the used Glocks on the market i'd pick one up before the Sigma.


This is all my opinion, your mileage may vary.

pablo45
November 2, 2006, 05:33 PM
Well beside's being sued by glock and having a horrible trigger. The sigma is just as good as a hi point in my opinion. The trigger you will not be able to trade out and the off shot's are something you will have to deal with. I bought a sigma for 350.00 and sold it for 250.00 the following week. I thought the gun itself looked nice and was easy ergo wise but when i shot it my hope's went down and i could not keep it any longer. Just some advice before you buy it. Go with the glock, it may cost more but it will be worth it.

EdLaver
November 2, 2006, 06:33 PM
I had one but traded it. I loved it, 1,000 rounds never had a single problem. The one thing I would change on it though would have been a lighter trigger. It has at least a 12lb pull. You may like this though b/c with a lil time and practice I was able to stage my shots like a revolver.

ugaarguy
November 2, 2006, 09:36 PM
A Sigms 9VE was my first handgun. The ergonomics were great, but the trigger left much to be desired. After that I moved to a Glock. The ergos weren't as good, but the trigger was a big improvement. After several years of happily owning the Glock I started shooting friends' guns to get some variety. I took a strong liking to Mr. Browning's Hi Power and M1911. The Glock is no longer with me, and I don't miss it. I do own a 1911 and a BHP. In trying to stay close to the price of the Sigma I'd look toward a used Glock 19 or 26, new CZ-75, used metal frame S&W auto, new or used Speingfield XD, or an FM Argentine made Hi-Power over the Sigma. If you think you'd like a 1911 type pistol a used Springfiel GI or Milspec wouldn't be much more than the Sigma, and sometimes you can find deals on new ones for just a bit more.

Those are my preferences, those are guns that feel good in my hand. I think you should head back to Academy and handle a bunch of other guns in the $350 to $450 price range. Find a couple more that fit you well like the Sigma does and try to find a range that rents them. Spend a few dollars to shoot the Sigma against a couple other contenders and see what you think. Please let us know if we can help you with more info or ideas.

SouthpawShootr
November 2, 2006, 09:57 PM
Seems that $350 (or thereabouts) is a tad high. I see them locally for $310 or so. I have 2 Sigmas. Won't hesitate for a moment to load up and carry either. Generally, when a gun by a major manufacturer stirs up the kind of passion that the Sigma does, I buy one for myself and give it a work out. Been satisfied so far. I have many Glocks. I won't get into a comparison between the two manufacturers. My first Sigma was one of the limited production 357Vs (.357 Sig). Still have it, although I don't shoot it very much. I bought my 9VE b/c I thought it might make a decent carry gun - and it does. The trigger on these guns are universally (it seems) reviled. If you work with it a bit, it smooths out and you become acclimated to it. Yeah it's heavy, but it's a match trigger compared to my AMT Backup .45.:what: My 9VE has been boringly and completely reliable. My 357V gave me some problems with the mag catch, but after a 10 day trip to S&W, it was back in my hands and hasn't given me any grief since (even before the return to S&W, it was reliable, just had trouble with the mags locking in). I'd say look around a little, see if you can find a lower price, but I do recommend them if you're looking for a good, inexpensive, and reliable gun for CCW.

pierrebazukhov
November 2, 2006, 10:51 PM
I had an SW9VE for awhile and traded it off. I've also had two SW40VE's. The first .40 had some feeding problems but the next two were o.k. I used the 9mm as a carry gun- it fed fine, was reasonably accurate, no problems. I like the looks and grip of the Sigma and it seemed to carry well IWB for me- maybe just an "entry level gun" but I actually LIKE the Sigma and miss the ones I traded away. Next week I'm going to buy another one to carry again but haven't decided on 9mm or .40. My only real gripe about the gun is the trigger, but I dry fired the hell out of mine a few times. It smoothed out some, and my finger got toughened up;) I see them as decent, inexpensive utility type pistols.

yodar
November 4, 2006, 11:21 AM
Definitely NOT the first gun to buy. Nor should the CZ 52 be the first gun to buy. IT has it's own peculiarities too. But it's fun as hell and with the 9mm bbl is actually capable of accurate shot placement ( 2" at 15 yards)


SIGMA's Chamber does not offer full support and Dave has had several out of battery discharges that caused minor damage to the gun which S & W fixed no questions asked. The final fix got him essentially a new gun. He shoots it less, preferring a Ruger P-95

Yodar

joe4702
November 4, 2006, 04:47 PM
I just listed my 9VE Sigma in the Trading Post.
Joe

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232156

greener
November 4, 2006, 08:45 PM
If you are looking at Sigmas in the mid-to upper $300's, I'm not sure that is a good deal. The M&P9 seems to be a much better handgun and can be bought in the $380-$430 range.

One thing about Sigma's is that there aren't many neutral opinions. When I was looking for a 9mm, "hold it at the counter" test my ratings were (bottom to top): Sigma, beretta, High Point, glock, XD and M&P. (Didn't look at the Rugers or H&K's). Really didn't like the Sigma I fired. Personally, if my choice were down to sigma or High Point (based on limited firing), I'd by the High Point.

wolfman01
November 4, 2006, 10:45 PM
Thanx. I didn't get the opportunity to get to a range on my days off, so I'll be waiting untill I can test one before I move forward. I did get some time to fire the Bersa some more, and I'm getting very frustrated with it. I tore it down, cleaned everything, and lubed the slide. It's simply giving me all manner of fits regarding feeding and jamming. At 15 yards, it's a total crapshoot on accuracy. :mad: I know it's a light, short barreled gun, but this thing struggles to hit the broad side of a barn. :mad:

I do want to stay with used if possible. I like saving some dough were I can.

salvador31c
November 5, 2006, 06:55 PM
Not a Bad Bang For The Buck Kinda Gun They work, shoot good, value price gun with the S&W Name And Service if i were to get another one i'd go for the 9mm and not the .40 JMHO.

Frisian
November 5, 2006, 07:38 PM
They are a decent gun for the money. They fit better in most peoples hand than do the Glocks.

As many have previously mentioned the triggers are too stiff, but on this type of gun (Stiker fired with no manual safety) thats no necessarily a bad thing.

You certainly can do worse.

If it is comfortable and is your price range it should serve you well.

mljdeckard
November 5, 2006, 08:07 PM
First let me say, that mine was a first generation .40, and I have read that they worked hard to work the bugs out of that model.

This was hands down the worst handgun I ever owned. I bought it, because I liked a lot of the things some others are saying here. The grip was nice. It looked really cool in 1994. I was thinking, "The Glock might be a good idea, but I want to wait for a model someone has worked all the bugs out of."

The first thing I did was to try some 155 gr hydra-shoks. Three stoppages in one magazine. Un-freakin acceptable. So, I had the gunsmith mill the feed ramp, under warranty, and it was fine. It was before I had a permit, so I left it in the door pocket of my car with an empty chamber, resting inverted on the sights. after a week, the front sight, or rather, the nylon plug they used for a front sight, fell out. Oh well, I wanted night sights anyway, right?

This was before I realized that it has a 12 lb trigger. Or rather, that some police agencies prefer a heavier trigger on striker-fired weapons, to prevent cops from shooting themselves in the foot. A stock Glock trigger is 4.5 lbs. NY trigger springs are available for 8 and 11 lbs. The difference with the heavy Glock triggers is, they have a very clean let-off, and can still be fired accurately with some practice. The S&W trigger just sucks. I sold it for a loss. If you want a Glock, but you are feeling cheap, get a used Glock.

Glockfan.45
November 11, 2006, 06:31 PM
I have one in .40S&W I just took to the range for the first time today. So far so good. It could be a better gun if not for the 9lb trigger pull other than that it does fine. The grip could not be better IMO, and yes it is a Glock (so close Glock sued tham some years back and won) the difference is this feels better than the Glock. I need at least 1k rounds through it though before I can begin to comment on reliability. However if its as much of a Glock as it appears to be that shouldnt be a problem.

revitup
November 12, 2006, 11:39 AM
900 rounds through my 40VE and not a single problem. Trigger is a non issue. It's smoothed right out. Easy to take down and clean. My next carry will be a little smaller though. For $300 I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/castaway1/SW40VE/IMG_0767-1.jpg

FieroCDSP
November 12, 2006, 09:05 PM
I've had my Sigma 40VE for a few months now. For the $299 I paid, it's a nice first handgun. I didnt do the research I should have (my previous experience being with 22 rifles only), and between the hard trigger and the unsupported chamber, I've started looking at the M&P 40 as a replacement. I have run into an issue with PMC 165's. Between fifty and a hundred rounds or so, I start getting soft strikes on the primers. I use them strictly for the range, but after loading a full mag of 14, slow firing, and getting two fires ,dud, fire, dud, dud, fire the rest, I kinda start wondering if it's the primers or the firing pin. I usually fire CCI Blazer brass 180's with no trouble.
Has anyone else had that kind of trouble? Also, does anyone know the break-in period, it's not in my manual. Thanks.

SouthpawShootr
November 12, 2006, 10:01 PM
I have run into an issue with PMC 165's. Between fifty and a hundred rounds or so, I start getting soft strikes on the primers. I use them strictly for the range, but after loading a full mag of 14, slow firing, and getting two fires ,dud, fire, dud, dud, fire the rest, I kinda start wondering if it's the primers or the firing pin. I usually fire CCI Blazer brass 180's with no trouble.
Has anyone else had that kind of trouble?

I don't have a .40 but I do have a 9mm. First thing in troubleshooting your problem would be to ask how many rounds do you have through it.

Next, have you dropped any oil into the into the striker hole in the breechface? If you have, don't do that! :what: If you haven't, good for you. :D Lots of people do that with striker fired pistols and it's very bad. They think they're lubricating the firing pin/spring, but the oil serves to attract junk (unburned powder and stuff like that). This eventually accumulates to the point that light primer strikes ensue. To absolutely rule this out as a cause or contributing factory, you'll have to detail strip the gun (which I don't know how to do). I have seen some Glock strikers/springs (literature abounds on how to detail strip Glocks) come out of malfunctioning guns encased in a sludge that rivals grease in viscosity.

Other than that, I would wonder if your problem is confined to a single lot of ammunition. PMC is usually excellent ammunition. Try a different lot, if you haven't already. Do these rounds that don't fire ignite upon a second attempt?

It's also possible that your particular gun left the factory with a compromised striker spring and that it may need to be replaced. Call S&W and tell them your problem. It's not uncommon for them to send you a shipping label. They practically rebuilt my Sigma 357V when I sent it in for a mag catch related issue and returned it to me within 10 days.

Don't give up on it yet.

Lastly, you ask about break-in. I would think 200 rounds would be enough. Certainly, everything should be settled in by 500 max. My own experience is that, with a clean gun and mags, Sigmas don't need much of a break-in. First range trip, my 9mm started jamming after it got dirty (around 250-300 rounds), but gave me no grief after I cleaned it up. My 357V was also reliable from get go until the aforementioned mag catch problem developed.

BTW, have an M&P (also in 9) and it's great.

FieroCDSP
November 12, 2006, 10:43 PM
I had to do a detail strip after firing some Wolf through it and getting the flaking varnish everywhere. It's not hard to do, and I do it every few sessions or so. It does mark up the plastic backing on the rear of the slide, but no more than the plastic guide on the recoil spring gets from field stripping.
I have been using a Rem-oil wipe-down on the firing pin. I'll try degreasing and reassembly to see if that fixes it.

Incidently, I started getting case jams after about 115 rounds of the Wolf steel case. The varnish just keeps building up in the chamber and eventually becomes sticky. I got a few cases free easily until about 145 when one got seriously stuck, which ended my hour range time 20 minutes early. A wooden dowel and mallet fixed that, followed by a thorough cleaning.

SouthpawShootr
November 12, 2006, 11:13 PM
If you're detail stripping that often, then I doubt the cause could be lubrication (or over-lube) of the striker. Wolf is really nasty stuff. I read something on the OlyArms site that the quickest way to screw up a rifle chamber was use Wolf in one of their AR-15s, primarily due to that lacquer sealant. I'm stumped. The striker doesn't show any obvious deformities?

I was thinking that, maybe, some of that lacquer from the Wolf might have remained in the chamber and caused a misfire, but you'd know it if the gun was slightly out of battery and the disconnect was preventing fire. I had an XD9 that choked on some reloads due to out of spec cases. The gun locked up solid with a live round in the chamber. It looked to be at full lockup and I thought the trigger was maybe broken; it was just out of battery enough to engage the disconnect.

FieroCDSP
November 13, 2006, 06:44 AM
I'm stumped. The striker doesn't show any obvious deformities]

No, no sign of deformity. All but 1 of the rounds that I bothered to re-try fired on the second hit. When I pulled it apart to clean it (mis-fires creating concern, ya know) There really wasn't much crud on the firing pin. My friend ran 50 Winchester 180's through it earlier in the week and had no trouble. They seem to have a similar primer as the PMC, but then again, I usually don't see a problem until well after 50. I'm going to proceed as though it's oil induced and see what happens. I'm planning on heading out on friday with some friends to get some range time, so I'll probably know then.

FieroCDSP
November 13, 2006, 10:42 PM
okay. Did the degrease. I was looking at the slotted plastic shroud the firing pin is in and thought maybe it just wasn't getting enough travel forward.
I did some measurements on the firing pin extension from the face and got 1.1mm at forced extension and .77mm at non-forced extension. That is, pushing down the slide-firing pin safety button, pushing forward normally gives me the .77mm and pushing hard gives me the 1.1mm with a very discernable detent between them. I'm no genius, but .33mm of difference seems like it might be a likely cause of misfires on tougher primers. Those are reasonably accurate numbers, but it's not easy to hold the thing foward with one hand and work a micrometer with the other. Can anyone with the 40 let me know if they get the same numbers, or even if the pin travels the same, seeming two-stage way. Maybe the sleeve isn't seating back in correctly or something. If it's nice, I'll try to get out with the couple of boxes of PMC I have left and see if I get any issues with the oil-less firing pin.

copper4262
November 14, 2006, 04:00 AM
Wolf - I thought i would drop in and drop off my 2 cents on the sigma issue. I can see there are some pretty big fans here and some others who aren't so keen on the sigma. I have only had experience with one that I owned a couple of years ago. So - maybe my experience hasn't been very broad but I thought I would share it just the same.

My experience with a Sigma 9mm was not good. I would say stay away from them if possible. I would never own another. I had an older model and maybe things have changed, but I was not impressed. I actually carried one at my first law enforcement job. I was pretty proud of the gun having got it at a cheap price and I figured with a name like S&W behind it I couldn't go wrong. I loved the way it felt in the hand. I soon learned that was about the only thing about the Sigma I loved. I quickly switched to a more expensive and reliable gun(Beretta96).

The Sigma is a great gun for the money if your not planning to depend your life on it. I found that the only way to make it work at least half the time was to run very expensive ammo through it and clean it every 25 rounds or so. Even then i usually got at least one jam every clip. I just found the gun too unreliable. Saddly when it comes to guns you get what you pay for. Now Im no expert by any means and wont claim to be, but I have owned alot of handguns and shot alot of different ones over the last few years. If your going to risk your life on a CCW get one that has a good track record. (The only exception I have found is a 9mm kel-tec that outshoots most of the guns I have ever owned. With that kel-tec I shoot as good, if not better, scores then I have with most of my larger more expensive guns - and have never had a jam after several thousand rounds through it - no-one believes me when I say this but its true)

If your going to get a good CCW and dont want to pay the money look at the Glock. When I started with my current department I was told I would be issued a Glock and had to carry it on duty ( tough for an H&K man to hear) Sadly I have been quite impressed with the Glock. I never thouht I would like it but am slowely coming around. Even with the goofy grip I somehow manage to shoot better scores with it then I have shot others in the past.
There are so many sizes and accessories to choose from that you really can't go wrong with the Glock.

If you still dont want to stick the extra money into it, look at a Ruger or even the kel-tec - I would buy both over the Sigma. But thats just my opinon -

Oh yeah - and with the sigma - I could have set a bowl on my head and caught 3/4 of spent brass with it. It never failed. Just when I was starting to hit good I'd have brass rolling off my head into my shirt. I have had other Sigma owners tell me that they had that problem as well. Maybe its been fixed on the newer models but I was pretty distracting on mine.

Good luck with your search

copper4262
November 14, 2006, 04:13 AM
Wolf - I thought i would drop in and drop off my 2 cents on the sigma issue. I can see there are some pretty big fans here and some others who aren't so keen on the sigma. I have only had experience with one that I owned a couple of years ago. So - maybe my experience hasn't been very broad but I thought I would share it just the same.

My experience with a Sigma 9mm was not good. I would say stay away from them if possible. I would never own another. I had an older model and maybe things have changed, but I was not impressed. I actually carried one at my first law enforcement job. I was pretty proud of the gun having got it at a cheap price and I figured with a name like S&W behind it I couldn't go wrong. I loved the way it felt in the hand. I soon learned that was about the only thing about the Sigma I loved. I quickly switched to a more expensive and reliable gun(Beretta96).

The Sigma is a great gun for the money if your not planning to depend your life on it. I found that the only way to make it work at least half the time was to run very expensive ammo through it and clean it every 25 rounds or so. Even then i usually got at least one jam every clip. I just found the gun too unreliable. Saddly when it comes to guns you get what you pay for. Now Im no expert by any means and wont claim to be, but I have owned alot of handguns and shot alot of different ones over the last few years. If your going to risk your life on a CCW get one that has a good track record. (The only exception I have found is a 9mm kel-tec that outshoots most of the guns I have ever owned. With that kel-tec I shoot as good, if not better, scores then I have with most of my larger more expensive guns - and have never had a jam after several thousand rounds through it - no-one believes me when I say this but its true)

If your going to get a good CCW and dont want to pay the money look at the Glock. When I started with my current department I was told I would be issued a Glock and had to carry it on duty ( tough for an H&K man to hear) Sadly I have been quite impressed with the Glock. I never thouht I would like it but am slowely coming around. Even with the goofy grip I somehow manage to shoot better scores with it then I have shot others in the past.
There are so many sizes and accessories to choose from that you really can't go wrong with the Glock.

If you still dont want to stick the extra money into it, look at a Ruger or even the kel-tec - I would buy both over the Sigma. But thats just my opinon -

Oh yeah - and with the sigma - I could have set a bowl on my head and caught 3/4 of spent brass with it. It never failed. Just when I was starting to hit good I'd have brass rolling off my head into my shirt. I have had other Sigma owners tell me that they had that problem as well. Maybe its been fixed on the newer models but I was pretty distracting on mine.

Good luck with your search

SouthpawShootr
November 14, 2006, 09:44 AM
Early Sigmas were known for several issues, reliability and durability among them. The so-called E-series (enhanced) Sigmas are more along the lines of what the gun should have been to start with. Still, of course, the triggerpull weights are nothing to write home about. To anybody who has one and is having problems with it, try letting S&W make it right. Do as much troubleshooting as you can to make sure it's not something silly, but in the end these things carry a lifetime warranty and S&W is well-known for sending out prepaid shipping labels for warranty service, especially in the short-term after purchase.

bb21
November 14, 2006, 06:53 PM
Well I can't say I've heard a lot of good things about the Sigma's, the one LEO I come into contact with on a regular basis carries one as his sidearm. I think there may be some other options that may be better in that price range, either the Taurus Mil Pro or the 24/7, the FNP-9, CZ-100, and the XD's and used glocks. You might check out the CZ Rami that is for sale on this post, an excellent gun. Good luck and be safe.

SouthpawShootr
November 14, 2006, 07:54 PM
CZ100?!? :eek:

I had one. Very reliable pistol. Ergonomics are at least the equal of the Sigma, maybe a little better. Stone cold reliable from the get go. Accurate as well. But the trigger on the CZ100 made the Sigma trigger feel like a light, crisp, short match trigger.:what: I have no idea how heavy the pull was, couldn't find a gauge that went up high enough. But, like the Sigma, if you work at mastering the trigger, it can be done. I also didn't like having adjustable sights on a defensive pistol. The sights also didn't have any sort of standard dovetail, so they were not replaceable except by very expensive custom work. Front sight was integral with the slide, ala Beretta. Had a very interesting loaded chamber indicator that was plainly visible from the back of the slide, with the sights lined up. Full cap mags are hard to come by. Haven't even seen one of these in a while (I traded mine off on a 686 but have actually wanted it back more than a few times). Also, if you look inside the magwell, there is a metal insert with the word G U N cutout, presumably so that it shows up on x-rays.

XDs are nice, but I can't get warmed up to them. Don't know why, they just don't do it for me. I seem to be in the minority. The FNP is a nice gun and I've almost bought one on more than one occasion. Gets good reviews and seems to be very underrated. They're about $150 more than a new Sigma.

To this list I'd also add the SigPro. I have 2 of these. Very nice.

Still, I think the Sigma would be a serviceable CCW weapon.

toocool
November 17, 2006, 11:31 AM
Get the Glock.
It has a better trigger and it's not a copy of a Glock.

But the Glock has a HORRIBLE grip angle and feels like you're holding a brick. I'd go with the M&P (oh, that's right...I DID!) and never look toward Austria again!

FieroCDSP
November 21, 2006, 03:36 PM
Further up the thread I described my issues with the PMC 165gr ammo in my Sigma 40. After a long mid-day on the range with the friends and my last two boxes of the stuff, I ended up with quite a few soft hits on the primers. It was an average of 2-4 out of a full 14 round mag. Needless to say, I stared to think of sending it in. I finished off the day with two mags of Winchester and had no problems what-so-ever. We went to our local gun-dealer and lucky me, the S&W rep was in the store that day. This is the guy who the store brokered a deal with for 200 M&P's that they're selling at 399. In any case, I got a few words with him and he expressed serious disappointment with PMC's stuff, mentioning that it's the only ammo he's ever had actual firing trouble with in a sigma.
He also mentioned something about the PMC now being produced by Fiocci. I don't know how true this is, maybe someone else can address this, but I do know that I fired 100 CCI and 30 Winchester on the range today and had no, that is not a one, soft hit. Every round fired perfectly. There is nothing wrong with my Sigma (short of the design complaints). If anything, I'm leaning towards the PMC casings being trimmed down (or extruded) to an insufficient length to headspace properly in the chamber, thus making a soft hit on the primer. I am certainly not going to use PMC range ammo anymore. I can pay a buck or two less and get Wolf that I know will work.
Anyway, just thought I'd share my info.

SouthpawShootr
November 21, 2006, 06:00 PM
Well, I'm glad you found a satisfactory explanation for your problem. I've been using PMC off and on for a long time and their 9mm ammo has been at least the equal of the Winchester USA ammo. I'm sure I've used PMC .40s at some point, but I just don't shoot .40SW all that often. Try measuring some of your empties with a dial caliper and see if you can prove your hypothesis. If you don't find anything that way try measuring the overall length and the brass of loaded cartridges. Then compare the same meaurements with Winchester and anything else you have on hand. I, for one, would be interested in what turns up.

I knew that PMC was in serious financial trouble not too long ago, had no idea of how they got out of it.

I'm a bit surprised you would consider using Wolf again since it leaves such a mess.

FieroCDSP
November 21, 2006, 08:48 PM
I'm a bit surprised you would consider using Wolf again since it leaves such a mess.

I was stating that I'd rather use extremely cheap ammo that works but leaves a mess than use ammo that is only slightly cheap and doesn't give consistant results, particularly in the firing department. I'll have to dig some of those cases up from the ground where I was firing them, as it was outside, but given the number I fired, that shouldn't be too hard.

Glockfan.45
November 21, 2006, 09:35 PM
I have now put 500 rounds through my Sigma. All of it Remington UMC JHP without a single glitch. Takedown and cleaning are a breeze. The trigger was resolved by me at home by removing a spring :uhoh: . Trigger pull is now light and crisp. For the $300 dollar range it is one of the best purchases I have made and would buy it again in a heartbeat. Get that Sigma S&W has worked out the bugs and it is now a great gun.

chaim
November 22, 2006, 10:16 AM
The newer ones are good guns, the original ones were terrible, so that might color your advice (those with early guns may steer you away, while those with more recent guns may like them). I don't own one, the trigger several people have warned you about is what has stopped me from buying one.

For me, I went with the DAO Taurus Milennium Pro instead- it has a much better trigger. Now with the SA/DA Milennium Pros the trigger is even better. These are priced similarly and mine is accurate and 100% reliable. They are very well made. They are starting to get quite a following.

The Kel-tec P11 (which I've rented and also know by reputation) is probably going to be a little less expensive. They are a little more spotty in quality, but generally are reliable. The trigger isn't great. They are smaller than most other 9mm options (and much less money than other small 9mms) and have a strong CCW following.

If you don't mind paying $50-100 more you will greatly increase your options (though I'd still rate the Milennium Pro very high at that range).

TxPhantom
November 22, 2006, 11:09 AM
I didn't have time to read all the posts on this subject so I may be repeating someone here. I own the SW9VE and it is has been totally reliable. Heavier trigger makes it a good CCW. It only goes bang when you want it to.
Also the S & W lifetime warranty is worth considering when making a S & W purchase. I own 5 S & W's and only used the warranty once and was very satisfied.
$348.00 sounds a little high. You can beat Academy's price at a gun show. I bought my Sigma at Academy for $318.00 (on 3/3/2006) but I have seen them considerably cheaper at gun shows. Whatever you pay it will be worth it.:)

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