[Drizzt]

I was considering going through the NRA Instructor's course (and probably still will, if I can get the time off from work), but someone on another board asked me about the AACFI certification. Is there any difference? Is one preferable to another? The NRA version is really the only one I've had any exposure to...

[joelr]

I'm surprised that nobody from AACFI answered that.

I'll give it a shot. But, while I can't be objective (http://www.livejournal.com/users/joelrosenberg/?skip=40#item26181), and I'm not an officer, official, principal, spokesman, or employee of AACFI, I think I'm being accurate here.

As a "merit badge," no question: NRA. NRA Instructors are recognized as valid instructors almost everywhere, even -- usually -- when they're not teaching NRA courses. In fact, you can't teach a pure NRA carry course, since until (if ever) NRA releases "Personal Protection Outside the Home," they don't and won't have a carry course at all.

AACFI, on the other hand, is recognized now in two states -- Missouri and Minnesota -- and while I expect that there'll be more states added this year, I'd be surprised if it goes over ten this year, and wouldn't be at all surprised if it's only Florida, Ohio, and Utah that get added this year.

But then it comes to content, and there I'm obviously not an objective observer; I wrote the book. But I do think it's fair to say that the Minnesota book (and the forthcoming Missouri one) aren't only both state-law-specific and very detailed, but at least a decent take on what the contents for a carry course should be.

My preferred solution -- and I can think of a few other Minnesota instructors who have done the same thing -- is both.

That said, while all the rest of the book and course, I think, makes sense pretty much everywhere, there's no AACFI Texas book or course in the works that I know of, although that may well change.

Hope this -- belatedly -- helps.

[Trebor]

I spoke with someone at the NRA Training Division last week. He said they are still working on getting all the photos shot for the "Personal Protection Outside the Home" book and hope to release the course to training counselours this fall. Of course, last year they said they hoped to have it out this spring.

He did confirm that the PPOTH class will include a legal component just like the current PPITH class.

[joelr]

Yup. I'd love to see it come out, and I'm certainly going to get the certification, if and when it does, but I'm skeptical. Self-defense law varies quite a lot from state to state (compare, say, Minnesota "defense of dwelling" with Missouri "defense of habitation," and when you think you've figured those out, try Texas) and carry law varies even more; the course is either going to be huge and modular (probably best), or just leave a whole lot of stuff out.

We'll see. It was going to be last spring, then last summer, then last fall, then twice last winter.

[manyironsinfire]

Here in South Carolina I was exempt from having to take the required traing course because I'm an NRA instructor and it's nationally recognized by law enforcement.. I had to show proof of certification and have it noterized, I'm also a certified IDPA saftey officer which I included with my application... I strongly feel that this type of training helps us in the long run...To stay legal, We can't avoid the paper trail!;)

[Trebor]

Self-defense law varies quite a lot from state to state (compare, say, Minnesota "defense of dwelling" with Missouri "defense of habitation," and when you think you've figured those out, try Texas) and carry law varies even more; the course is either going to be huge and modular (probably best), or just leave a whole lot of stuff out.

The NRA requires that an attorney licensed in that state or a state certified police officer teach the legal portion of the "Personal Protection in the Home" course. NRA instructors are specifically prohibited from teaching the legal portion, unless they are also an attorney or police officer and teach the legal portion in that capacity.

The idea behind having a attorney or police officer teach the legal portion of the class is that they will (hopefully) be familiar with the laws of their state and the NRA therefore does not need to come up with a legal curriculum good in all 50 states. If you take a look at the legal portion of the PPITH instructor's course book, it lists areas that the legal portion should cover, but does not give specific legal information. That's left up to the attorney or cop teaching the legal portion to provide.

I believe the PPOTH course will have the same requirement for the legal portion.

I did a PPITH class last weekend. I had an attorney who is very well versed in firearms and self defense law do the legal portion. The legal portion lasted alone lasted three hours. I spent five hours on the rest of the classroom instruction and then we spent 3 1/2 hours on the range the next day.

[F4GIB]

The AACFI course focuses on:
(1) conflict management,
(2) the legalities of the use of deadly force and judgmental considerations in deciding to do so,
(3) surviving the personal (psychological and physiological) effects of a use of deadly force, and
(4) dealing with the police at the scene and the investigators during the aftermath. Half the course deals with these subjects (not a one-hour lecture).

It is not primarily a gun safety or gun handling course although it adequately covers both of those subjects plus choosing a firearm and holster, everyday practical issues involving carry, and the required shooting exercise/test.

The AACFI course is designed to keep you alive and out of jail. It is not designed to prepare you to participate in the Bianchi Cup.

I've taken both. The AACFI course is superior AS a instructional vehicle for someone who plans to actually carry a defensive firearm and who has made the decision to use it if necessary. Like LFI-1, it is best viewed as a form of insurance.

AACFI has paperwork in to state authorities in Florida and other states. They trained their first Missouri instructors in Kansas City last weekend and they are looking to hold a class in the St. Louis area.

You'll be seeing more choice in civilian-oriented CCW instruction in the future.

[F4GIB]

If you are interested in becoming an AACFI certified instructor in Missouri, call Tim Grant (VP-Ops) at 612-730-9895.

[Ironbarr]

How about Virginia?

[Greybeard]

FWIW, I've found very little need and/or demand for NRA Personal Protection course in our area of Tejas. With DPS providing their own (similar) required lesson plan (yet no required lawyer), I've not conducted a PP class since CHL law went into effect.

Yet I have found there IS an ongoing demand for small NRA First Steps and DPS CHL courses. I think DPS is now doing CHL Instructor schools only one a year, IIRC, the first week in August. $100. Renewals required every two years. Another $100. In "original" skul, Commander Rodriguez does an excellent job of Texas-specific laws on Use of Deadly Force.

[Trebor]

FWIW, I've found very little need and/or demand for NRA Personal Protection course in our area of Tejas. With DPS providing their own (similar) required lesson plan (yet no required lawyer), I've not conducted a PP class since CHL law went into effect.

Yeah, it really varies from state to state. Here in Michigna the PPITH class is the only thing state law currently accepts for CPL training so the PPITH classes are in high demand. It's actually a little tought to put together JUST a Basic Pistol class.

I'd reccomend that anyone who wants to do formal instruction should first find out what is required in their particular state first. The AACFI course sounds interesting, and I'd love to be certified to teach it, but there isn't much point to that since it doesn't meet my state's requirements.

Actually, it probably could easily be made acceptable if AACFI could first get itself recognized by the State of Michigan as a "National or State Level Training Organization." Currently, the only training orgs mentioned in the statute are the NRA, the Michigan Commission of Law Enforcement Standards (MCOLES) and the Michigan Cooalition for Responsible Gun Owners. Of those, MCOLEs doesn't do civilian classes and MCRGO isn't "certifying" any instructors or courses at this point. That leaves the NRA.

[joelr]

While I don't speak for AACFI, my belief is that that's going to happen, just not as quickly as anybody would like.

I don't think there's much question that the key to the AACFI class is the book I wrote, from which the course is derived, and it's state-specific, as is the AACFI carry course.

While the principles are the same everywhere, the details vary incredibly from state to state, as do the statutes on use of force, and the cases. (And a thousand fiddly little details, like where and how to apply for a permit, what the forbidden places are, and such.)

I've taken a preliminary look at Michigan law, and it's typical -- there's a lot of quirks that have to be handled during a training course, and a lot of case law to go over, for the book to be done right. I finished the first draft of the Missouri book last week, and it took awhile; Michigan, when it comes, will be much of the same. And it's not just me who has to go over it; the legal stuff obviously has to be vetted by Joe Olson (who is a lawyer -- I'm not ) and by a lawyer from the state in question who is expert in such matters, like David Gross in Minnesota or Kevin Jamison in Missouri.

And that adds time and difficulty.

Again -- not speaking for AACFI -- my belief is that another state or two will be added within the next year to Minnesota and Missouri, and that there'll be at least a couple added every year for the foreseeable future.

One bottleneck is, I'm embarrassed to say, me: for a whole variety of reasons, an Everything... book pretty much has to be written by me, and there's a fair number of other demands on my time.

Beyond that, there's the question of the market -- AACFI has to decide if there's enough people who would want a copy of, say, Everything You Need to Know About (Legally) Carrying a Handgun in Michigan to justify the cost of production, much less compensating me. Printing an additional copy of a 250-page book isn't expensive, but the costs of copyediting, proofreading, typesetting, and printing the first run is. And then there's the issue of photographs and rights.

It'll be an expensive thing to produce that first copy of Everything You Need to Know About (Legally) Carrying a Handgun in Michigan, issue of the writer aside.

Of course, they could hire another writer to do a non-Everything... book for them -- and they've done that for their Basic Pistol book and course -- and then base a state-specific course around that, but the same basic problem remains: doing a state-specific book isn't quick or easy, and folks who both can write reasonably well and know or are able to quickly research and learn the state-specific issues involved aren't necessarily easy to find, or inexpensive to get. Eventually, my guess is that they'll decide that they want to get up and running in more states every year than I could handle, and either work out something with me for letting somebody else do an Everything... book, or, more likely, just have several other writers each do an original book for a given state.

NRA has gotten around the problem with their Personal Protection course by deciding not to make it state-specific,. I can understand why they do that, but it really makes the legal portion of the course utterly dependent on the lawyer or cop that the instructor brings in, and the knowledge and teaching abilities of lawyers and cops varies dramatically.

My own take is that AACFI has to do better than that, in order to be able to compete in the marketplace, and while I'm not an officer, official, principal, employee or spokesman for AACFI, my, err, strong guess is that that's their corporate belief, as well.

So: we'll see.

If you think that there's a particularly good market in Michigan (or any other state) for such a book and course, you could write to Joe Olson, the President of AACFI (he's jolson@gw.hamline.edu) or Tim Fleming Grant, the VP (tgrant@citilink.com). No promises, of course, but I'm confident that they'll be receptive.

[Trebor]

NRA has gotten around the problem with their Personal Protection course by deciding not to make it state-specific,. I can understand why they do that, but it really makes the legal portion of the course utterly dependent on the lawyer or cop that the instructor brings in, and the knowledge and teaching abilities of lawyers and cops varies dramatically.

I agree completely. I'm very happy with the lawyer that does the legal portion for my classes. He's a shooter and a RKBA advocate and has experience with criminal law and firearms specific issues. I have heard some horror stories about the legal portion from other instructors though. For some reason, it usally seems to be the cops who don't really know the law and say the most outrageous things while teaching.

[joelr]

"The best test of another man's intellect is how much he agrees with me."
-- somebody or other

Yup. Locally, one of the NRA-certified instructors sometimes brings in David Gross to do the law portion of his carry course, and while that does cost the instructor a fair amount of money, he finds that it's worth it; publicizing that David's going to be at a given class is very much of a draw, he says.

I don't doubt it.

David has a well-deserved reputation for being a very colorful and effective speaker, and a very good teacher, and he certainly does know the important MN cases backwards and forwards, as he was involved in a fair number of them. Professionally, that is.

As far as cops go, among those I've talked to, the knowledge of the civilian-related law varies dramatically. A few months ago, I was outside of another guy's class listening to a cop hold forth with a disquisition on the "force continuum" requirements under Minn. Stat 609.06, and had to remind myself that it would be wrong to have interrupted, even though 609.06 is the law authorizing use of force for police officers and is utterly irrelevant to civilians.

On the other hand, during a beta of the AACFI course, I put Terry Dolan -- a retired Savage cop (that is, he's from Savage MN -- he's really a very mild-mannered guy) -- through his paces, and I'd have no reservations at all about Terry teaching anybody anything he thinks he can; he's great.

[cobb]

I do the NRA class, and I think it is a definite plus having an attorney do the legal. The attorney that does mine has 27 years experience and comes across with good examples to any questions asked by the students.

[joelr]

Pretty neat; sounds like you've got one of the good ones.

[Trebor]

Joel,

Please check your PM's.

Thanks,

Rob