How would THR member fare in North Hollywood shooting?


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twoblink
May 19, 2003, 01:43 AM
I was just curious, if it weren't the LAPD, and it was say..

Tamara, Art, Lawdog, Oleg, Runt, myself, Skunk, Kaylee, etc..

Are we more prepared for a firefight against armed men with semi-auto rifles and body armor... if we were armed only with what the LAPD had?

I'm just curious if it was a logistical equipment failure, or a training and tactical tactics failure..

Thoughts?

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WonderNine
May 19, 2003, 01:47 AM
Shoot them in the face, legs and arms. I guess that concept was too complicated for the L.A. pd.

Justin
May 19, 2003, 01:49 AM
urgh

WonderNine
May 19, 2003, 01:53 AM
What was their plan of escape btw?

BerettaNut92
May 19, 2003, 01:56 AM
I'd find a nice spot to crap my pants first.

"Quick, fetch my brown pants!"

Has my Beretta M92 been to Ernest Langdon?

Tamara
May 19, 2003, 02:11 AM
What?!?

Why would I be there?

If the guys weren't actively shooting at me, why would I start shooting at them?

The depositor's money is insured by the FDIC. While the BG's came running out of the bank to hop in the getaway car, I'd be strolling down the street to buy Art & Lawdog a beer. I have no desire to play Carmen Commando. :scrutiny:

twoblink
May 19, 2003, 02:14 AM
Skunk..

I see you have made every one of your pairs of pants into brown pants..

I'm usually fairly calm in stressful situations (the more stressful the situation, the calmer I get.. it's sick)

And so I would probably be able to pull off a few shots, I don't know about "aimed" shots though, especially a moving small target like the head..

But I'd definitely try to shootout the legs..

sm
May 19, 2003, 02:20 AM
Tamara, thank you, common sense prevails.

I would hope all THR members would think and respond in like manner.

Powderman
May 19, 2003, 02:20 AM
Don't know if you'd want general replies;

but I'd back off and engage from about 200 yards with my .300 Win Mag and 175 grain MatchKings. Let's see them shrug THAT off.

BerettaNut92
May 19, 2003, 02:29 AM
FWIW I'd be with Tamara running the other way and sucking a Slurpee from my Camelbak....

Tamara
May 19, 2003, 02:30 AM
I'm just curious if it was a logistical equipment failure...


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

twoblink
May 19, 2003, 02:34 AM
It seems to me, that maybe there was like 3 rifles, and 20 cops that needed rifles.. That's a logistical failure..

Tamara.. If I run away with you all, would you buy me an icecream cone? :p

Hmm... what if you WERE being shot at? Say stray bullets start whizzing by yours and Art's head??

WonderNine
May 19, 2003, 02:36 AM
If the guys weren't actively shooting at me, why would I start shooting at them?

I think he was trying to say that if THR members were in the LAPD and being shot at.

jmbg29
May 19, 2003, 02:38 AM
Cry havoc! And let slip the rodents of unusual size.

Logistically speaking, that is what I would do.

Either that, or stow the 9mm mouse gun, and grab the scattergun for some good old-fashioned headshot fun.;)

Headshot...Hollyweird...get it? :p

Tamara
May 19, 2003, 02:43 AM
I think he was trying to say that if THR members were in the LAPD and being shot at.

I was trying to make a light answer to what is essentially a pointless question.

Anybody who thinks they can predict how themselves and seven other people that they mostly know over the internet would perform versus the performance of seven people who were there (whose skills and abilities are a complete cipher to each and every one of us) is engaging in rank speculation of the first order.

To sit there and toss comments around like "Well, I'm pretty calm, so I'd shoot for their legs..." is... is... I don't even know how to describe it. Shoot for whose legs? With what? Beretta? Rifle? Shotgun? From where? The parking lot across the street? The middle of the intersection?

This is just talking to hear our heads roar.

While we're discussing it, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

WonderNine
May 19, 2003, 02:46 AM
Yes, we're very well aware of all the variables involved. But it was an interesting question. Wondering if the experience and/or training of some of the members here would have made a difference.

UnknownSailor
May 19, 2003, 02:56 AM
I'm with powderman on this one. Scoped rifle+head shot=problem solved.

Not that I'm trained as yet to do this, but this is what I would do, as long as we are speaking hypothetically.

Frankly, I am suprised it didn't happen for real. This went down over the space of 44 minutes, right next to a residential neighborhood, on live TV. Didn't anyone close by with a hunting rifle think to offer assistance? Or are hunters so few and far between in LA that nobody could?

Thumper
May 19, 2003, 03:05 AM
Ummm...

Twoblink, your implied superiority to LAPD S.W.A.T. and Zen like calmness in the face of danger nothwithstanding...

How many rounds did you put downrange this week?

Counterstrike or Airsoft don't count.

WonderNine
May 19, 2003, 03:08 AM
He didn't imply. He asked. Ok?

twoblink
May 19, 2003, 03:11 AM
Thumper,

I never make the claim that I'm superior to SWAT or the LAPD...

And my Zen like shooting probably will miss 100% of the time, that much I'll freely admit to..

I have read so many accounts of this shooting, some articles just said straight out, they were undergunned. But a few articles basically said that it was all training, that if there was sufficient training, that would have solved the problem..

Quite a few people on THR seems fairly well trained, and I have always wondered, is it REALLY a superior firepower issue, or a training issue?

Tamara.. I CAN do a one handed clap, so next time I see you, remind me, and I'll let you hear what a one handed clap sounds like...

WonderNine
May 19, 2003, 03:16 AM
There's too many people on here willing to make the "you're an armchair commando" smart aleck remarks even when it isn't warranted. If anyone deserved them, I did with my first post in this thread.

Tamara.. I CAN do a one handed clap, so next time I see you, remind me, and I'll let you hear what a one handed clap sounds like...

Ya, I saw that episode of The Simpsons many years ago too...:D

Thumper
May 19, 2003, 03:26 AM
They warned us about the one handed clap when I was stationed in Germany. :p

I re-read my post and I seemed a little rude. Sorry. Just seemed like you were taking it over the top a little with the the more stressful the situation, the calmer I get.. it's sick comment.

I have to ask:

If you're so prone to missing, why would
Are we more prepared for a firefight against armed men with semi-auto rifles and body armor... if we were armed only with what the LAPD had?
be a valid question? In what way might you be superior to LAPD SWAT?

Edited to add that there was nothing semi-auto about those AKs.

Thumper
May 19, 2003, 03:43 AM
There's too many people on here willing to make the "you're an armchair commando" smart aleck remarks even when it isn't warranted.

Sorry, WonderNine, but I believe it's occasionally warranted here.

I equate "armchair commando" to Monday morning quarterback.

It's funny to me how many here believe that their bi-monthly trip to the range and their extensive gun collection makes them some sort of tactical god. Three days at Thunder Ranch doesn't cut it either.

Owning a violin doesn't make you a maestro.

Jim March
May 19, 2003, 04:21 AM
Well let's clarify the situation a bit.

Let's say we have the typical THRer with a CCW piece, S&W 66 or a 9mm or a 1911 or whatever, minding our own biz with an unarmed friend or family member, and these two heavily armed and armored loonies come popping out of a bank spraying ammo like the 1,000 rounds they're packing have an expiration date of "tomorrow" :rolleyes:. And the LAPD is all still on donut break for the moment.

We have advantages over the average citizen all right, but the biggest advantages have little to do with our guns. We know what trouble with a capital "T" looks like, we know that those ARE gunshots going off because we're quite familiar with the sound, and we know the difference between "concealment" and "cover". We would very VERY rapidly seek out the latter and drag whoever's nearby along.

That one action right there puts us at an advantage: less "startle effect" (or "deer in the headlights syndrome") than the sheeple.

Now what? Can we STOP those clowns single-handedly?

HELL no.

Can we dissuade them from advancing on our covered position, and pick a different escape route?

Probably. Still dicey, but not a total crapshoot. Basically, those nutcases DID want out of there, and wouldn't want to hang around and trade pot-shots with some dude with a 357 or whatever hiding around the corner of a brick building.

:cool:

I'd recommend letting them run away, rather than risk wounding 'em and causing them to stick around and continue hosing anything that moves. 'Specially with two of 'em. ONE baddie, if you think you have a headshot available, maybe. Still damned risky.

twoblink
May 19, 2003, 06:27 AM
Thumper..

So any theoretical questions are out because we would be arm-chairing it??

I own a violin. I can do a one-handed clap. Any thing else? :uhoh:

There are people here I think are a LOT more well trained than the regular LAPD. But I guess from your point of view, if you are not in uniform, you are inferior in shooting skills?

I know personally, I have put more bullets down range than my LEO friends in the LAPD... but I guess that means nothing..

Also, I have seen bank robbery shooting etc.. here in LA. Some cops panic and lose it, they aren't trained for this. They don't seem to practice stressful situations. So that might be what happened in the shooting... yes? no?

There is still the curiousity I have, of why nobody tried to run them over with a car..

Thumper.. LAPD and LAPD SWAT are different animals.. Let's at least agree on that...

Thumper
May 19, 2003, 06:47 AM
There are people here I think are a LOT more well trained than the regular LAPD. But I guess from your point of view, if you are not in uniform, you are inferior in shooting skills?
Absolutely not.
Thumper.. LAPD and LAPD SWAT are different animals.. Let's at least agree on that...
If you'll re-read my posts, you'll see that I specified SWAT in each instance.

The point I'm trying to make is that some believe their skills to be more than they are. Not you specifically, twoblink.

As Jim March said, your "tactical" mindset definitely makes you more survivable on the street than the average sheeple. Don't make the mistake, however, of second guessing a group who put it on the line in very difficult circumstances and prevailed.

And don't get me wrong...I'm no cop apologist. I also know many cops who can't shoot for beans. I know plenty of others, however, that I would put up against pretty much anyone.

Here's the crux of the whole deal: What training have you had that puts you in contention as the better man for the fight?

Of the original group you mentioned, I have a hard time imagining any of them questioning their possible superiority over the guys and gals actually involved.

Bruce H
May 19, 2003, 07:09 AM
I would activate my cell phone and call Diane Feinstein with the suggestion we need more gun laws. Crime still happening we don't have enough yet.

Kharn
May 19, 2003, 07:24 AM
THR members wouldnt do any better than the LAPD. We'd be too busy arguing over Barrett vs Browning vs WindRunner vs Serbu for the .50 to actually engage the perps.

Kharn

Preacherman
May 19, 2003, 10:07 AM
It doesn't really matter how well you'd do - in a situation like that, where you have a handgun and the BG''s have two full-auto assault weapons, the only sensible thing to do is hunt cover and keep your head down! There's no way I would take them on unless they were specifically after me - and even then, given the disparity of force, I'd hunt for good, solid cover with limited approach routes, and then cover the approach routes, so that they would have to move into my field of fire to get to me. It's not my job to play hero - that sort of thing gets you killed.

(Of course, if you happened to be unobserved by them, and could get in a killing shot from the rear, or something like that, then by all means go for it - but being in LA, you would probably be charged with murder if you did so! :fire: )

TechBrute
May 19, 2003, 10:16 AM
I'd hop in my bulletproof suburban and call Tamara on the cell phone to see where they were having beer.:D

Oh, by the way, Wondernine, Tamara is a she, not a he.

Coronach
May 19, 2003, 10:21 AM
They: have body armor, lots of ammo, full-auto rifles, and know how to use them.

I: have semi-auto handgun, know how to use it.

Thats the scenario, right?

Lemme be blunt: it is probably gonna end badly for me. Same with anyone else here, assuming that the BGs have even the slightest clue what they're doing. We like to chant "its the archer not the arrow," and many times its true. There are times, however, then the disparity in equipment becomes kinda hard to overcome. This would be one of those times.

Mike

HBK
May 19, 2003, 10:21 AM
I forgot what I was going to say because Tamara's answer made so much good sense. Still, the situation was nothing a couple of well placed hand grenades or head shots couldn't have cured.

HankB
May 19, 2003, 10:44 AM
I thought SWAT personnel invariably had long arms? That the cops in LA had to borrow rifles from a gun shop implies that SWAT wasn't on the scene.

As for the skill level of LAPD's finest . . . I'd wager it's not particularly high. Police skill levels seem to fit an inverted bell curve - there are a small percentage that are very, very good, virtually none that are average, and there are a whole lot of terrible shots - guys that are lucky to draw without shooting themselves in the foot.

To put it another way, if a large randomly selected bunch of cops - not SWAT, but just ordinary street cops - showed up to shoot IDPA, you might have a Master or two, but on balance, they'd mostly end up in the Novice ranks, with a few Marksmen.

Has anyone ever tallied how many shots LAPD fired at the bad guys in that event, how many hits they got, and how many of their bullets were recovered from nearby buildings, mailboxes, parked cars, etc.?

Anyway, to get back to the question at hand . . . I'm pretty decent with my carry gun, but there is NO WAY I would have tried to take on a couple of bad guys with machine guns and body armor if there was any way out of the situation. (If I was stuck, I'd try for head shots . . . but that would still be a low percentage option.)

Betty
May 19, 2003, 11:04 AM
I wouldn't get myself shot at over someone else's money.

However, I keep a Mosin M44 in my pickup, and kevlar won't stop that. :p

Mike Irwin
May 19, 2003, 11:39 AM
"Shoot them in the face, legs and arms. I guess that concept was too complicated for the L.A. pd."

You're more than welcome to attempt to get close enough to two guys with automatic weapons to shoot them in the face, arms, and legs.

The amount of lead that those two were slinging made that sort of marksmanship rather impossible.

Oleg Volk
May 19, 2003, 12:27 PM
I don't know about the rest of the heros present, but I'd make use of cover to get away from the scene. The only reason I'd be in California in the first place would be to scout out the routes for the liberating forces, and my mission requirements wouldn't allow me to blow my cover.

Really, I'd rather stay well away from LAPD or the bank robbers...any of them could accidentally hit a bystander like me.

Feanaro
May 19, 2003, 12:30 PM
Armed with only a handgun against those guys? I'd be trying to get the hell outta there. Being a hero is well and good but if you can't do any damage there is no point in dying.

jmbg29
May 19, 2003, 12:43 PM
The only reason I'd be in California in the first place would be to scout out the routes for the liberating forces, and my mission requirements wouldn't allow me to blow my cover. :D LMAO

Powderman
May 19, 2003, 01:07 PM
Ya know, there's one thing that I'm curious about.

You'll recall that the cops already knew--KNEW--that these guys were wearing body armor.

So why did they go and get AR15's from that gun shop, when they were standing in the middle of much higher powered rifles?

Frohickey
May 19, 2003, 01:25 PM
If I were a duly-sworn LEO, I'd be in the squad car heading for the nearest Krispy Kreme. LAPD Air units can track the bad guys down much easier than I can.

If I were a civilian caught in the crossfire, and I'm inside a car, I'd stay put, and be as small as I can be.

If I were in a vehicle that was in gear, and I'm pointed at the bad guys, STEP ON THE GAS! Haven't seen anyone wearing body armor who's bones and organs can't be crushed by a 3500lb Suburban against a building or pavement.

Coronach
May 19, 2003, 01:58 PM
So why did they go and get AR15's from that gun shop, when they were standing in the middle of much higher powered rifles?Possibly because they chose a weapon with which they were familiar. A lot of cops have military experience.

Also...they knew they were wearing armor...but did they know what kind? If they thought it was Level II stuff...

I dunno. Guesses.

If I were a duly-sworn LEO, I'd be in the squad car heading for the nearest Krispy Kreme. LAPD Air units can track the bad guys down much easier than I can.You wouldn't remain sworn for long. :rolleyes:

Mike

rock jock
May 19, 2003, 02:07 PM
Since we are theorizing, I am wondering what would be the effect if not one or two, but 20 or 30 armed civilians pulled their CCWs and let loose with well aimed shots. This, of course, would be before the cops show up and the BG's threat awareness is way down. What a surprise that would be for them.

Cosmoline
May 19, 2003, 02:44 PM
If I were in ********** at the time, chances are I would not be armed and consequently I would run, run away just like Brave Sir Robin

If it happened here, I would not hesitate to use my truck gun IF I was far enough away to get cover and choose a shot. 100 yard blocks means estimating distance is pretty easy. A 220 grain 8mm solid should cut right through kevlar and break a lot of bones along the way.

If all I had was a pistole, there is NO WAY I'd try anything unless I absolutely had to. Not against body armor and fully automatic rifles!

Johnny Guest
May 19, 2003, 04:15 PM
- -Most of the statements to the effect of, "Hell no, I wouldn't engage armored goblins who have machine guns" make a lot of sense. Likewise, the ones about seeking out EFFECTIVE cover, and leaving the area, stipulalting you're a private person with no obligation to take action.

I watched every bit of video broadcast about that incident. Additionally, in various cop schools, I say some of it that was never put on the air. I was struck by the number of of individuals who were behind cover AND just concealment, within 20 feet of the robbers, when the robbers were facing the other way. Not all of 'em were passersby--Some of them were uniformed police. At least, some of the officers were WILLING to shoot.

At the time, and often since, I thought that the battle might have ended promptly if just one or two of the police personel had bided their time and shot the bad guys from the back. I can certainly see the logic of NOT retreating if to do so would only draw automatic fire . . . . Some of the cover-takers were behind vehicles, while a BG was just the other side. It has been proven a couple of times within memory that a pistol bullet fired from beneath a car into a bad guy's ankle or foot will impair his mobility effectively. And once there is another target available . . . .

One item I've never seen addressed, in the news OR in any training seminar, is how many shots were actually fired by LAPD during the battle. Even more interesting, the body armor was recovered by the police. How many bullet strikes were made on the bad guys? On the armor or elsewhere? In that no one died (Praise be!), there has never been any accounting of whether or not any of the casualties were caused by police gunfire, but one womders . . . . Given all the criticism of police marksmanship in this thread, I'm a little surprised that this aspect hasn't really been raised.

Interesting string - - - -:rolleyes:

Matt G
May 19, 2003, 04:40 PM
44 minutes is a long time. A lot of what happened was protracted, and is almost excrutiatingly slow. I've watched some of the footage, and questioned if it was in slow-motion. That gives time to get some emotions under control.

If you're not a cop, and you've no duty to the public, well then, you have to consider what your duties actually are. My neighbor across the street, a great guy, is a CHL carrier. He carries a Star P.D., if I recall, and usually no spare mag. That's 6+1 on his person, out of a lightweight pistol with short sight radius. He has a wife, 3 beautiful children, a car payment, and a mortgage. Should he engage such a duo of bad guys?

Not no, but HELL, NO! I don't care what kind of Tactical Ted he may be. (I've never seen him shoot, though I know him to be very responsible in his carry.) His first responsibility is to his family. If he takes cover and they come around AT him, well, obviously, he would have to do whatever would protect himself. But Take them on? I think not.

Then, there's guys like me. Off-duty, I often slip a M-37 Airweight Chief into my pocket, with no reload, when I run to the store or out for a quick errand. Would a reload really make a difference? Un-freaking-likely. :) Would I, a sworn officer, attempt to intercept such a pair of bad guys in such a a circumstance? Um, NO. That just makes no sense. I'd be likely turning two armed robbers into two cop-killers, which would then cause other officers to take undue risks to apprehend them. Best thing for me to do would be to observe, try to get others the word or get others to safety, and convey effective info to those who could use it. ("Say, 911? Do y'all have anyone with a rifle, here'bouts?") Now, if I had good cover and found myself in that occasional circumstance where I actually was carrying my full-sized Kimber 1911 with 8+1 and a reload in my pocket, (happens only in winter) well, then... I'd have to evaluate my cover, distance, and see how things went. Probably the answer would be the same.

Then there's a more interesting twist. My favorite shooting buddy is my father, another sworn L.E.O. That man hasn't left the house without at least one firearm on his person since I was born (I'm 31). Were we to find ourselves at such a situation, things might go differently, especially if we were within running distance to his car, where long guns can be had. It's amazing what a dependable partner that you train with can do to a situation. Then again, if we were armed with minimal off-duty concealment pieces, we would likely decide that discretion is in fact the better part of valor. :)

Funny thing about gunfights: We don't know how we'll react until we're shot at. If your initial reaction is to take good cover and stay there and hold your fire, well then, that's probably the thing to do. Taking wild shots when you're not steady is most assuredly NOT a way to make such a situation safer. :what:

rock jock
May 19, 2003, 05:02 PM
I say some of it that was never put on the air. I was struck by the number of of individuals who were behind cover AND just concealment, within 20 feet of the robbers, when the robbers were facing the other way. Not all of 'em were passersby--Some of them were uniformed police. At least, some of the officers were WILLING to shoot.
Having never been under gunfire, but having been in other high stress situations, I'm gonna say the obvious answer is that you have to VERY confident in that shot you take, because it is most likely the only one you will get and if you miss, you're a dead man (or woman). Given that, it takes someone who KNOWS they are good enough to place their shot accurately while containing and focusing all that ardenaline that is screaming at you to "RUN! RUN! RUN!". The latter is what separates those who can handle the stress and those who cannot. Skill alone is not enough. I have seen too many professional golfers who can play the game infinitely better than me crumble on the last hole of a four-day tournament when they realize that millions of dollars and lifetime fame are within minutes of their grasp. And that's just a game. Imagine when your life is on the line. OTOH, those brave men in blue are paid to take those chances and IMO if they can't do it (or are unable because of complete lack of skill) they need to hang up their uniform and find something else to do.

Shalako
May 19, 2003, 05:54 PM
Would there be a reward offered for taking out the Badguys?

Sometimes I am a little low on cash.

JShirley
May 19, 2003, 05:56 PM
And my Zen like shooting probably will miss 100% of the time, that much I'll freely admit to..

Okay then, if you know you'll miss your target, I guess that means "we" aren't more prepared for a similar gunfight! Sheez.

John

LawDog
May 19, 2003, 06:11 PM
Tamara, Art, Lawdog, Oleg, Runt, myself, Skunk, Kaylee, etc..

*snort*

If it happens in my county, in Texas, I'm heading for the 7mm Mag in the car and a high spot. I'm sort of obliged to do something about this kind of thing when it happens in my county.

If it happens in Texas, but ouside my county, I'm getting low and concentrating on being a good -- live -- witness. No need for me to get in the way of the local cops, and no need for the local cops to see me flashing a gun and maybe thinking that I'm an accomplice. Bad Things happen in those cases.

If it happens outside of Texas, you'll find me heading for somewhere that is cool, quiet and serves a nice cup of tea.

If it's the LAPD, and Tam, Art, Oleg, Betty, Kaylee and the others are about -- if someone will show me to a safe local watering hole, I'll stand the first beer. No gun out, no heroics, just an eight-block drive or so.

LawDog

ElToro
May 19, 2003, 06:41 PM
well, case law has held that the police have no obligation to defend and protect you. Why should i return the favor ? plus this being prk, you'd be charged with all the crimes of carrying illegally. discharging in city limits etc.. you'd be sued by the perps family, as the cops were.
this is a prime example of the perps getting by with lousy CCW laws, they knew there was little chance of a non LEO shooting at them, if this was in a good CCW state, who knows? ..

coonan357
May 19, 2003, 09:39 PM
1. I would do nothing becaus eI would not be there , I hate being in illinois why would I want to be somewhere worse!:what:

benEzra
May 19, 2003, 10:06 PM
I agree, the wise thing to do would be to "get scarce."
They: have body armor, lots of ammo, full-auto rifles, and know how to use them.
They did have the equipment, yes, but I don't think they new how to use them. They fired over 1,000 rounds and managed to hit six police officers, three civilians, and a dog, none fatally. Not exactly a feat of marksmanship . . .

Gewehr98
May 19, 2003, 10:23 PM
I'd have a better plan of escape after I robbed the bank.

Not much I could do about the lack of body armor over the extremities and head, but I'd definitely not stay exposed or linger on site as long as Emil Matasareanu did. His partner, Larry Eugene Phillips, shot himself at the same time a police bullet hit him.

News reports of the day state they had a lot more ammo on their persons, so were they to avoid getting hit they could have fought longer. But by then they were the major focus of the entire police force, with television and police helicopters maintaining contact. Getaway at that point would have been difficult, if not impossible.

What was that movie where the bank robbers were a complete SWAT team? That keeps flashing back in my mind, as well as scenes from Thunderbolt & Lightfoot.

Thumper
May 19, 2003, 10:40 PM
Gewehr, you're right...the Romanian guy ended up fighting with an AR, one of the rifles he transeferred from his trunk.

He was hit 26 times, mostly in the extremities (armored by the way, with hand sewn Kevlar).

SWAT finally settled his hash using aggressive fire techniques and outstanding communication (One SWAT officer in a strategically forward position was seamlessly replaced when his weapon malfed).

Responding officers did an outstanding job of containing these guys for 45 minutes in the face of overwhelming fire and ineffective cover. I'd say they did a pretty good job.

twoblink
May 19, 2003, 10:58 PM
I might be one of the few that has talked to the B&B owner who was handing out AR15's to the cops during that situation..

He said, it SOUNDED BAD... That he'd hear, bang bang bang... and then SPRAYYYYYY..

From the detailed diagram I have seen of the scenerio.. It looks like they were pretty well surrounded by a 270 degree arc of police.. Most shooting by the two had their backs facing someone at all time..

Did they mall ninja it, and have a lot of armor on the back too?

I would have liked to see more calm shots, instead of random shootings by the LAPD, but of course, I say that in the comfort of my chair, in front of my computer, so the bias is definitely there.. take that with a bag of salt.

I'm curious if this basically tells the LAPD that they need a bit more firepower on their side. I know M16's because somewhat standard issue for a few of the motor-cops in LA..

Was there any department training of any sort for handling multiple assaliants with hi-powered full auto weapons?

Thumper, you seem to think that I'm knocking the LAPD, and that I'm sniffing that I can do a lot better. Not making that statement at all, just wanted to know, if it was a failure to arm these guys sufficiently, or if it was a failure on the part of their training..

Thumper
May 19, 2003, 11:19 PM
Didn't think that at all, 'blink.

Interesting reading here:

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html

Harold Mayo
May 20, 2003, 12:22 AM
I'd fare just like the LAPD did since I would be letting them do their job while I concentrated on getting out of there.

Matt G
May 20, 2003, 12:57 AM
Training or equipment failure? Well, of the two, I'd have to say equipment, mostly. A couple of patrol rifles could have ended the thing quickly. That said, 20+ officers making careful shots at the head should land a hit or two. Some training at longer range for tight groups under stress would not be out of order.

But frankly, a M-94 .30-30 or an SKS, properly employed, would have ended the fight in pretty short order. Cheap to equip an officer with an effective fight-stopper, no? :)

twoblink
May 20, 2003, 01:21 AM
I'm thinking, SKS with a folding stock would have been a nice side rider for most cop cars..

And as far as affordability.. well, they are about as cheap as they come!..

Also, accuracy might be a problem, but I've never heard of reliability as a problem in an SKS.. The trigger is horrible though...

Jim March
May 20, 2003, 05:22 AM
OK, let's tweak the scenario a bit. You're LAPD. Ordinary cop. You're in B&B "shopping" for something that will deal with these twits. Gunfire echos outside.

What do you grab?

:evil:

My top choice: Marlin 45-70 "Appalachian Assault Rifle" (read: levergun) with the gnarliest 400+ grain monster flatpoint hardcast they've got. Garrett 540s would be *perfect*. A "Guide Gun" (18" barrel will do) but if they've got one of the 24" - 26" versions with up to 10rd capacity, hell ya :D.

Knock the suckers for a serious loop :D. See how well they "spray" with busted up ribs, sternum, boinked-up liver, puked-up spleens, God only knows what, equivelent to just wailin' on 'em with a sledgehammer for a while.

:neener:

Thumper
May 20, 2003, 05:50 AM
Open sight BAR in .270

I want something I'm sure will zip through and has the capacity and lack of recoil for at least one quick follow up shot apiece.

MicroBalrog
May 20, 2003, 06:58 AM
So we are arm-chairing it, so what?

I don't own a gun and have no training

While Tamara is running for her life:D , I'd ask her to lend me a semi-auto HK91 or FAL. Then I'd run up as close as possible and shoot at them. Thus, I'd draw fire and distract them for the few seconds second necessary for Thumper to get them two lethal head shots.
Then he and Tamara could Med-Evac me.:D

Thumper
May 20, 2003, 07:57 AM
Trauma plates be damned...I'm not gonna try a head shot on some nasty with an AK.

Center mass, baby...like Drill Sgt. Morrell said...

To be honest, I'da done been gone...I'm just entertaining Jim's thread hijack. :D

Billy Sparks
May 20, 2003, 08:40 AM
This can be a very thought provoking post. What would I do? The famous 275 pound man hides behind a peeble routine. It is REALLY hard to say what we would do in any situation unless you have been put in that situation (I know this has been said before). First there is the adreanal[sp] dump that makes fine motor skills (like holding your hands still) almost impossible, then there is the worry in my mind that the PD is going to think I am another bad guy and shoot me. I trully don't think I would stop running until about Tennessee....anyone know of a good eating place there abouts??

OEF_VET
May 20, 2003, 08:45 AM
I'd be running away, screaming like a little girl. Well, ok, my asthma would prevent me from screaming while I was running, but I'd definitly be running, as fast as I could! Someone just please have an Albuterol inhaler on them when I get to wherever the beer is.

The most likely reasons the cops grabbed AR's are 1) some may have had experience with them vis a vis the military, and 2) they were in **********, and all **********ns know that AR-15's are evil rifles that kill people on their own, with minimal assistance from their operators. ;)

Art Eatman
May 20, 2003, 11:01 AM
I can only judge by what I did on Charley Whitman day. That day, I hid behind a tree the instant I understood the problem. I then gave a bunch of thought as to how to safely practice not being there. With no obvious answer, "I stayed hid!"

If I'm in the BG's path as they exit the bank, "I can't get no lower; my belt buckle's in the way," as I try to be very obviously no threat. If I'm carrying, I'll give thought to shooting them in the back--if it looks safe for strays and passersby; and me, too.

Otherwise? Hey, I'm with Tamara. It's gotta be around beer-thirty, somewhere...

:), Art

Hot brass
May 20, 2003, 11:10 AM
I don`t even want to go there:(

I have not met any of you, but I considder you friends.
Those guys were serious:(
Let the pro`s handle that kind of engagement.

If it does happen to you, I know you will kick hind end;)

seeker_two
May 20, 2003, 12:37 PM
Remember the old days when someone robbing the local bank tended to get the "warm welcome" from the townsfolk as did the Daltons?...:evil:

cratz2
May 20, 2003, 02:26 PM
This thread has drifted too far for serious contributions but I've often wondered how many rounds were placed square in the middle of their armored torsos. :confused: I mean, in the movie Scream 3, there's a guy wearing armor and the cop keeps shooting into the center of mass until someone else suggests 'HEAD! HEAD!' I think if I had a rifle and I put 5 rounds into what I KNOW were wolid hits, I'd start aiming for the head and legs.

If I wasn't with SWAT team, I'd definately be as low as possible moving in a direction opposite of the bad guys. Even if I had an AR15. ;)

braindead0
May 20, 2003, 02:49 PM
I lived about 4 blocks away when this happened, and I was home.

Guess what, I stayed there!!

Seems to me that a 12ga slug would knock you down regardless of body armor..perhaps all they had was buck.

What I do know is that the shop they borrowed to 'evil assualt rifles' and ammunition from..is gone. B&B used to be one of the best gun stores...tis a shame.

Oh well, next time is happens..they'll have to find their own guns.

twoblink
May 20, 2003, 11:01 PM
How many seconds delay is the usual grenade fuse??

:D

Coronach
May 20, 2003, 11:08 PM
Seems to me that a 12ga slug would knock you down regardless of body armorHow well did you do in physics class, exactly? ;)

Mike

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