Five seveN for military?


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DRMMR02
November 5, 2006, 01:12 AM
Seriously, why not? There are a lot of grumblings that 9mm is underpowered, but it has better mag capacity than .45. So why not switch to FNs 5.7x28 Five seveN? Great capacity with awesome penetration, including against armor. Perhaps for the new USAF handgun?

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Hoppy590
November 5, 2006, 01:21 AM
well just to throw my 1/50th of a dollar in this

a good military round needs to have more going for it than armor penetration. i dont know much about the 5.7x28mm my understanding is small round, going fast, and i feel the 223 has proved that though it is ideal for some situations there are others it has been found lacking in.

by this i mean im not convinced the 5.7x28mm has the sheer mass to be an effective combat handgun round. i fear it will be the new Flechette rounds. amazing armor piercing, but seriously lacking knock down power.

Just my uneducated opinion.

Please enlighten me.

Medusa
November 5, 2006, 02:50 AM
AFAIK, Belgian AF uses the FN as standard issue sidearm. They're happy with it.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2006, 03:01 AM
How many jihad nuts are wearing heavy armor?

epijunkie67
November 5, 2006, 04:03 AM
I believe that the 5.7 X 28 was designed to replace the standard issue sidearm but not to replace a full sized rifle. Correct me if I'm wrong but the idea was to issue the P90 to troops as a more effective self defense weapon than a pistol. In that respect I think it's a much better option. 50 rounds, shoulder fired, much more effective range, armor piercing. Heck yeah I'd trade in my 9mm for one.

So 5.7 for military? Sure. In the approriate role.

And let me say, I've got an FN 5.7 pistol and a PS90 carbine. Even if we're talking about the pistol it's a heck of a shooter. The nearly total lack of recoil makes it uber control-able, it's very accurate, and long strings of follow up shots into small groups are very easy. Although the civilian ammo is ballistic tipped the military stuff is FMJ and designed to tumble on impact. If it acts as advertised the wounds should be pretty severe, at least as damaging as a 9mm. If that's the case then even the pistol is worth using by the military.

M2 Carbine
November 5, 2006, 10:43 AM
I think I'd rather have the FN than the FMJ 9mm as a side arm.

B yond
November 5, 2006, 02:14 PM
There are a lot of grumblings that 9mm is underpowered, but it has better mag capacity than .45. So why not switch to FNs 5.7x28 Five seveN?

NATO

:mad:

MachIVshooter
November 5, 2006, 02:23 PM
So why not switch to FNs 5.7x28 Five seveN?

I wouldn't bet my life on a round that is marginally more effective than a .22 mag.

The 5.56mm NATO is effective because it crosses the velocity threshhold where real trauma occurs. The 5.7x28 fired from a handgun does not. Under ~2,000 FPS, wounds are created by crushing and tearing tissue. A .355" bullet will do this better than a .224" bullet.

The 5.7x28 only shines over other pistol rounds where light body armor is concerned.

SoCalShooter
November 5, 2006, 02:29 PM
The US armed forces needs to go back to .45acp in any type of gun I dont care, preferably they would go to springfield for 1911's nice to see an American handgun manufacturer get the deal.

Manedwolf
November 5, 2006, 03:16 PM
So to compliment the smaller .223 that has less overall stopping power than the 7.62x39 it's facing, a new pistol that also makes a smaller hole than what the bad guys are using?

Um. Yeah. Maybe we could then move to .22LR rifles as the next step? Or .17HMR? :scrutiny:

I thought the point of urban combat now wasn't to put down a guy in advanced body armor, but to put down a screaming nutcase who's yelling "alahu akbar!" before he gets close enough to detonate his explosive vest among your guys?

Cosmoline
November 5, 2006, 03:22 PM
MachIVshooter makes an excellent point. It's a wee little bullet and it's not moving fast enough to have the explosive effect. Adopting it would be yet another example of preparing for the last war, when we faced hordes of Red Army Men and their armored protection.

outofbattery
November 5, 2006, 03:36 PM
The US armed forces needs to go back to .45acp in any type of gun I dont care, preferably they would go to springfield for 1911's nice to see an American handgun manufacturer get the deal.


Springfield 1911's are Brazilian:confused:

ugaarguy
November 5, 2006, 03:38 PM
The US armed forces needs to go back to .45acp in any type of gun I dont care, preferably they would go to springfield for 1911's nice to see an American handgun manufacturer get the deal.

Unfortunately Springfield Armory 1911s are made in Brazil by IMBEL. Further, a 1911 isn't gonna cut it. Single Action is dead for general issue in the US Miiltary. Much as I'd love a 1911 I think HK has a real leg up if you read all the wants as well as requirements on the new AF handgun RFI.

As far as the FiveseveN for a sidearm, unless they're likely to wearing armor I'll take a 9mm. Pretty much what others have said already.

mons meg
November 5, 2006, 04:57 PM
The 5.7x28 only shines over other pistol rounds where light body armor is concerned.

And, since we seem to be fighting 3rd world insurgent type rather than well equipped front line troops, there you go. The 5.7mm was built for the P90. THe pistol, while nice, primarily exists as an ammo-sharing platform for the PDW.

That being said, every citizen should own one, and have several hundred rounds of FMJ on hand. ;)

DRMMR02
November 5, 2006, 05:15 PM
What about for when(not if) we have to fight the Chicoms?

mons meg
November 5, 2006, 05:18 PM
We should probably use our rifles for that... ;)

Soybomb
November 5, 2006, 06:17 PM
9mm ball will make a permanent crush cavity with larger volume than the 5.7 rounds. Its a downgrade unless they need soft armor piercing.

I believe this image is by GKR. http://cyber-byte.com/photos/5.7.jpg

Grunt
November 5, 2006, 09:32 PM
Well first off, there is the stopping power issue. The 5.7 is great for poking holes through armor but it's not much good for any other purpose. No, I don't want to get shot by one of them but I don't want to get shot with a pellet rifle either so let's not even bother going there. The 9mm M882 round has been getting it's share of curses for it's lack of stopping power so we really don't need to go to something smaller yet. Would it be a better choice for facing down hordes of armored Russians or Chinese? Probably but lets look at the here and now instead of dealing with wars that didn't become hot ones or wars that "may" someday come assuming we aren't into plasma rifles and directed energy weapons by that time that would make the 5.7 and all other forms of ammunition as we know it obsolete on the battlefield. No, today we are fighting insurgents (I have yet to see one with body armor) and here the 5.7 is an even worse choice than the M882 9mm ammo we are using.
Now as far as issuing the 1911 back into general issue, that's a disaster waiting to happen. In CATM, we have a joke that the most deadly individual on the battlefield is the Air Force Catagorey C shooter. When required to use their weapon, somebody is going to die!!! It may not necessarily be the bad guy shooting at him (hey, it may be his buddy next to him or even the Cat C shooter himself) but SOMEBODY is going to catch a slug!!!:banghead: We see some of the worst gun handling (and by far, the worst offenders are the cop squadrons) that the idea of arming these people in the first place is a bad idea IMHO and the idea of giving them a 1911 with it's short, light trigger makes me cringe!!!:eek: No, the M9's double action trigger is bad enough. We don't need them having a shorter, lighter trigger to more easily shoot themselves or worse, one of my instructors! My suggestion would be something like a LEM or DAK trigger but that's a topic for another thread.

CornCod
November 5, 2006, 09:45 PM
I think the military might want to consider something like the fiveSeven, although I think the jury is still out on this weapons system and its cartridge. They should cnsider all reasonable systems.

RNB65
November 5, 2006, 10:01 PM
I think the military might want to consider something like the fiveSeven ...<snip>

Hell would freeze over first. How familiar are you with the US Army Ordnance Corps? They approach arming soldiers with a closed minded conservatism that knows no boundaries.

To this very day they still don't believe that soldiers need full auto rifles in combat, so they issue M16's with 3-shot burst triggers rather than full auto capability. Of course, the people making these decisions are all REMFs and have never been anywhere near a battlefield or had a bullet fired in their direction in anger. :banghead:

Eightball
November 5, 2006, 11:06 PM
The five-seven would be a pointless addition to our armory unless you're throwing the P90 in the mix. We don't even have an issue SMG, IIRC (other than occasional pilot/specops deal). I've seen pictures of our dudes with PPSh in 7.62x35 (25?) for battle, rather than the M4. Why not just adopt an SMG, and get the issue settled? More ammo+lower recoil+faster ROF=SMG, not smaller-cartridge handgun.

jeepmor
November 6, 2006, 12:41 AM
Just like my niece who is currently serving in Afghanistan stated.

"If I'm reaching for my pistol, I'm already F%^4ED! I should never be reaching for my pistol, it should always be a rifle. Pistols are last resort only."

On that note, I don't suspect each and every AF troop in a plane has room for a rifle to stay in tune with the thread. I'd have a .40S&W over a 9mm if I had my choice. It's what the Coast Guard is moving to with HK being the supplier.

the FN5x7 is neat, but without doing a bunch of math, I'd prefer 'heavy and slow' to 'light and fast' when body armor is not a concern.

jeepmor

mljdeckard
November 6, 2006, 01:10 AM
I agree with many of the above posters, but jeepmor in particular.

If you are at war, and you actually have to use your sidearm, you are in serious trouble. As the bad guy is charging you, you pull your pistol, and line up the sights, the last thought you will ever think is: "I'm trying to stop a charging adult male with a hot steel-core .22 magnum."

I think the 5.7 is a round that was invented to convince everyone there is a need for it.

loki.fish
November 6, 2006, 01:39 AM
9mm vs 5.7x28 is the new caliber war threads. The fact of the matter is shot placement....doesn't matter what caliber you use. Argue all you want over what caliber you would use, but if you can't hit a lethal spot on the body, that caliber is pretty worthless. These caliber wars are getting old.

swingset
November 6, 2006, 04:57 AM
Seriously, why not?

Because it's not a very good choice? Just a thought.

Plastic Cowboy
November 6, 2006, 12:25 PM
loki- this is not a caliber war. It's a friendly discussion about the pro's and con's of a new technological development in firearms technology and I for one find it quite interesting. Afterall- The purpose of this forum is for enthusiasts such as our selves to congregate and discuss the topics that interest us.

We can all ready see from this discussion that in specific situations where enemies may be armored the Five seveN may be a good choice in a P90 SMG. However as a last resort to stop an unarmored enemy a close range, especially one anxious to blow himself up in order to kill you, you will probably be better off with a large heavy bone smashing round at low enough velocity to manage recoil. I apologize for the gruesome description here but the physical shock of a heavy bullet crashing through bone, organs, and muscle might stop a hostile more quickly than the small piercing wound channel created by the five seveN. Especially when shot placement as you call it is concerned.

It is so very important to remember that shot placement is a really more of a hunting concept. In the chaos of combat when your azz and those of your buddies are on the line there is no such thing as shot placement!! You do not have time to line up for a good clean shot as if you are sitting comfortably in a deer stand. If your primary weapon is down and some crazed jihadist is comming right at you, what you are going to do is raise whatever pistol you happen to have and start pumping rounds- if you are well trained you will may remain calm enough to aim center mass but you may panic or not even have a clean shot. When there are obstructions, arms or legs may be all you can see. A five seven, or even a .22rim fire will punch holes in the bad guy and may even kill him but not before he reaches you or hits his detonator. A heavy .45ACP hardball though hits hard enough that it will usually shock the system enough to physically stop the bad guy. Even a hit in the arm or leg will shatter bone rendering that appendage useless. The key requirement in self defense is immediate incapacitation afterall.

...not trying to start a fight here, just a friendly difference of opinion:D

bowfin
November 6, 2006, 12:34 PM
Penetration isn't the same as wound or injury that stops a person immediately, or at least very quickly. As an analogy, the needle of an insulin syringe has excellent penetration capabilities, but my son has survived over 11,000 "hits" by one, and hasn't been put down yet.

Now, if that bullet is designed to cause damage all out of proportion of what its weight and velocity would normally produce in a more normal cartridge, (by yawing, tumbling, fragmenting, or upsetting, then that might give pause for thought. However, if it is just a .22 Magnum magnum, then I would probably pass on the idea.

tqtran
November 8, 2006, 01:59 PM
SOYBOMB:

Fixed it for you. Sorry but you can not compare full metal jacket vs full metal jacket and then switch to compare full metal jacket to HOLLOW POINT. So I fixed your picture for you.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/tqtran/compare.jpg

SixForSure
November 8, 2006, 03:52 PM
Springfield 1911's are BrazilianCould SoCalShooter have meant Springfield Massachusets i.e. Smith & Wesson?

UglyGlock
November 8, 2006, 05:48 PM
As an analogy, the needle of an insulin syringe has excellent penetration capabilities, but my son has survived over 11,000 "hits" by one, and hasn't been put down yet.
...because they only penetrate 5/16 to 1/2 inch. an insulin needel dosen't even reach the muscle.

Ash
November 8, 2006, 10:12 PM
The US Military dropped fully auto in favor of the three round burst because spray and pray sent a lot of ammo down range without hitting anybody. Controlled, aimed, burst fire is more effective.

Ash

Soybomb
November 8, 2006, 11:26 PM
Fixed it for you. Sorry but you can not compare full metal jacket vs full metal jacket and then switch to compare full metal jacket to HOLLOW POINT. So I fixed your picture for you.
The picture was oringinally intended to cover uses where jhp rounds were acceptable as well. The problem I see with your image is that in all the gel tests I've see the 5.7 round spends very little time in complete yaw, most of the time you'll be getting a much smaller frontal area crushing and the permanent crush cavity of the 9mm will have a larger volume. Your image implies that 5.7 keyholes through the whole target and I've seen no evidence of that. If you have some tissue simulant tests showing the 5.7 round spends alot of time in full yaw I'd like to see them though.

Geronimo45
November 8, 2006, 11:42 PM
Maybe the Air Force would like it. Handguns, as a rule, are anemic. The 5.7 vs 9mm debates... someone had a link to the FBI's thoughts on shooting. It added up to the remark that actual shooting results weren't really reproducible, so we can't know for sure whether 9mm or .45 is better, or whether 5.7mm beats them both.
With all the talk about low recoil in the handgun, it seems like the 5.7 might benefit from a selector switch for FA fire. It's already got high capacity. Have a wire shoulder stock that would mount on the back, and it would probably be a great weapon for the folks that usually aren't involved in combat. Full-auto if need be, and pretty good range for a pistol. After all, it's just the Broomhandle Mauser of the new century... and it had a full-auto variant.

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