automatic pistols? legal or not?


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jfanzen
November 5, 2006, 01:31 PM
I was watching terminatior 3 the other day and i saw maybe a glock 17 with a 35 round magazine shooting non stop.. automatic right? ive never seen or heard of a handgun in real life(not in movies) shoot like that. Is that legal or illegal? I want one!

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Car Knocker
November 5, 2006, 01:35 PM
Sure, it's legal - as long as it was registered prior to the 1986 closure of the NFA register. That's why automatic weapons cost tens of thousands of dollars - the artificial restriction of supply.

jfanzen
November 5, 2006, 01:38 PM
bummer... so what you are saying you have to have a gun from 1986 or older to have it? cant you just buy one and make it automatic??

atblis
November 5, 2006, 01:47 PM
once a machine gun always a machine gun.

THis is a very tricky subject. We're dealing with a federal entity that doesn't appear to be gun knowledeable, and can make crap up on a whim. You figure it out.

Basically the manufacture of a machine gun was banned in 1986. Manufacture of a machine gun would include converting a semi to full.

Owning is not illegal provided you jump throught the right hoops.

Because the supply is limited prices are sky high for something that doesn't cost anymore to make than a regular firearm.

Full auto is amusing, but be happy in knowing that if you're proficient with a semi, there isn't that big an advantage (in most cases).

ugaarguy
November 5, 2006, 02:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLOCK_18

mainmech48
November 5, 2006, 02:02 PM
To do that legally, you'd have to have a Class 3 manufacturer's license and BATFE permission for such a conversion. It would also be subject to the same restrictions that any other "machine gun" has under Federal law, and might well be a complete no-go in your State or municipality. AFIK, there have been no new Class 3 weapons made or imported which are legal for sale to civilians since 1986.

Possession of the parts to make such a converion without the Federal licensing is a felony, even if you don't have them installed on a pistol, as they are considered to be a "machine gun" in and of themselves.

There may well be some sort of "non-gun" exemption for movie props which cannot be made to fire live ammo. Personally, I wouldn't take a chance on either, even if I had the truckload of cash it'd take to buy one.

Prince Yamato
November 5, 2006, 02:55 PM
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b3

scroll down to letters M and N about National Firearms Act. Read about machineguns.

MachIVshooter
November 5, 2006, 03:54 PM
There is no way for a civilian to legally own a Glock 18 in the United states; The '68 GCA outlawed the importation of machine guns. IIRC, there were a handful of legally converted 17's made before the 1986 FOPA.

Today, only gov't agencies and Hollywood can get them.:cuss:

Wes Janson
November 6, 2006, 12:34 AM
Unless you're a SOT. It's not impossible to possess a Glock 18, just really difficult.

MachIVshooter
November 6, 2006, 12:42 AM
Unless you're a SOT

Doesn't matter. Machine guns could not be imported after 1968. The G-18 didn't exist prior to 1968.

orangelo
November 6, 2006, 12:56 AM
http://www.berettaweb.com/93R/totale.gif

There are a few of these Beretta 93R machinepistols with transferable status in the NFA registry. One of them was butchered into the Robocop movie gun.

The owner wants $125,000 for this one.
http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=93rleftsidewe8.jpg
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi?read=79994

Stachie
November 6, 2006, 04:49 AM
I never understood the appeal of automatic pistols. Submachine guns were invented for a reason. Pistols should be used in a semi-automatic manner.

Phenom
November 6, 2006, 09:29 AM
That's not a factory M93R. There's only 10 real Beretta M93Rs in the States and none are civilian transferable.

Curare
November 6, 2006, 10:30 AM
Machine pistols are all but worthless.

kokapelli
November 6, 2006, 02:20 PM
If you want to waste a lot of ammo, learn to bump fire it.

No special license required.

crunker
November 6, 2006, 05:28 PM
That was a GLOCK 18 you saw in Terminator 3. It is a fully automatic machinegun as defined by the NFA.

No, you as an individual cannot legally buy the semiautomatic GLOCK 17 and convert it to full auto, and no one here or on any gun forums of repute will help you in illegally converting a GLOCK 17 to full auto.

In terms of pistols, automatic means that with one function of a trigger, it fires a bullet, ejects the spent casing, and reloads itself. This is not to be confused with fully automatic, in which case multiple bullets are fired with one function of the trigger.

handkusp
November 8, 2006, 03:08 PM
If you can find a g18 or a converted g17 from before may of 1986 that is for sale and you can complete the paperwork and get it signed by the designated officials and then approved and returned to you before someone else does then you can own a class III firearm, including the g18 and some g17 conversions that do exist

and yes ... they do exist, they began importation of the g18 and the g17 conversions in January of 1986, so there was 4 prominent months that they were imported in to the USA that would qualify for legal transfer under the NFA.

There is stipulation that there must not be any superceding regulations or laws in your jurisdictions (city town county and state) restricting your posession of a class III firearm or a NFA regulated firearm or destructive device, and the signing person of authority on your application (State Judge, Chief Law Enforcement Officer, Chief DA ...) is signing that there to their knowledge is no legal (federal state or local) reason for the applicant to be denied possesion and ownership of such firearm as is regulated by the NFA or other Class III laws.

There is one other stipulation as follows:
If you are the owner of a company that is incorporated in the USA you have the right to transfer the firearm without needing a sign off from local or regional or state officials, so long as the company is not designed or implemented solely for the purpose of purchasing or holding said NFA or Class III firearms or destructive devices. By taking posession of these items through your corporation you do put yourself at a risk of rapidly loosing the items as they are a corporate asset and subject to seizure in a lawsuit or in any other action where your company would be held legally liable for reimbursment.

And of course if you are willing to establish an dealership of firearms you have the option to be a Class III firearms dealer, and from there if you can get local contacts from law enforcement or government agencies to do so you can request an evaluation firearm for potential sale to said agencies so long as the request is on official deparment letterhead, but you do have the obligation to actually sell some firearms and not just establish the dealership for personal procurement or holdings.

above all else if you intend to own such a firearm GET AND KEEP A SIGNIFICANT AMMOUNT OF INSURANCE to release yourself from liabilities with less felt impact, if there is some instance where you are at the range and somthing happens, or some intruder steps on your property to attack you and you use your firepower, you will be most likely in an intense legal battle as there is the likelyhood that the DA will attempt to press charges against you since it is moderately excessive to drop a 20 rd mag from your g18 into the chest of a guy when 1-3 well placed shots will do the same job.

another key note: YOU CANNOT USE A MACHINE GUN OR FULLY AUTOMATIC FIREARM FOR HUNTING! it puts you in violation of regulatory hunting laws to do so

This is a rough idea of what you can expect if trying to procure a class III firearm, an NFA firearm or NFA accessories ... silencers, SBR conversions etc...

YOU MAY NOT QUOTE THE ABOVE OR USE THIS AS LEGAL ADVICE AS I IN NO WAY AM REPRESENTING MYSELF AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A DELIVERER OF INFORMATION TO BE USED SOLELY UNDER THE USERS DISCRETION ... IF YOU WISH TO USE ANY OF THE ABOVE INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT HANDKUSP@COMCAST.NET FOR PERMISSION, THIS INCLUDES QUOTING AND PARAPHRASING. IN SUCH INSTANCE HANDKUSP WILL MOST LIKELY REFER YOU TO REGULATIONS AND QUOTATIONS FROM DIRECT GOVERNING BODIES SUCH AS THE BATF.

Hkmp5sd
November 8, 2006, 08:08 PM
If you can find a g18 or a converted g17 from before may of 1986 that is for sale and you can complete the paperwork and get it signed by the designated officials and then approved and returned to you before someone else does then you can own a class III firearm, including the g18 and some g17 conversions that do exist

You cannot have a Glock 18 because the 1968 GCA banned the importation of non-sporting firearms for civilians. You cannot have a converted Glock 17 because there were none converted AND registered in the NFA prior to May, 1986. All G17 converts and G18s in the US are Post-86 dealer samplers.

SoCalShooter
November 8, 2006, 08:14 PM
So Hollywood is allowed to have them...arnt they civilians? I say we take theirs away too if I cant have'm they cant have'm. Whatya think?

crunker
November 8, 2006, 10:20 PM
There's a guy on www.uzitalk.com whose neighbor owns a transferable GLOCK 18.

Realistically, don't bother trying to get a GLOCK-18. It's a ammowaster, and it will be astronomically expensive. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but sorry, that's how it is. If the FOPA was repealed then they could be had for $700 + the $200 tax.

Wes Janson
November 9, 2006, 03:13 AM
Post-May, I know for sure that they exist. I've handled one before ;)

Buck Nekkid
November 9, 2006, 03:41 AM
Now here is a full automatic pistol that I'd want on my hip:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/ottonsure/CZ75FullAuto.jpg

This is the full auto CZ 75...Just waaay too cool!

CypherNinja
November 9, 2006, 09:45 AM
::drool::


I've always loved the "use the spare mag as a foregrip" idea.

Big Gay Al
November 9, 2006, 10:39 AM
I have to wonder, if the Glock 18 couldn't be imported into the USA for civilian use, WHO the heck is the guy I saw on an episode of "Mail Call" they did at Knob Creek, KY, who was using two Glock 18s? And who's butt did he have to kiss to get them????

Phenom
November 9, 2006, 11:16 AM
I think I watched that episode of Mail Call. I believe the guy worked for Glock. Anyone with a SOT licence can be in possession of G-18s.

Big Gay Al
November 9, 2006, 12:02 PM
I dunno. There was an episode of Mail Call that featured the Glock 18. What I'm talking about was the annual machine gun shoot at Knob Creek, KY that was what the entire episode of Mail Call. There was a guy (I don't think his face was visible) who had two "Glock looking pistols" with long mags and a steady stream of cases ejecting out of both.

That's what I saw. And that episode was repeated just last week.

buzz_knox
November 9, 2006, 12:11 PM
As stated before, a dealer with the right license can possess Glock 18s, usually (strictly?) as demo samples for LE agencies.

Phenom
November 9, 2006, 12:54 PM
I think the guy that built that "titanium" OD green Beretta 93R is going to be in a buttload of trouble.

Big Gay Al
November 9, 2006, 02:20 PM
First, who says it's "Titanium?"
Second, who says you can't get a machine pistol refinished?

Phenom
November 9, 2006, 02:27 PM
The seller said it was titanium. The ad is no longer shown you know. Secondly, the seller said the builder finished the home built 93R in OD green meaning it never was refinished. It's not illegal to refinish any firearm, but this one wasn't.

Big Gay Al
November 9, 2006, 02:36 PM
"Homebuilt?" Sounds like someone might be in a trouble, unless they had a piece of paper saying they could do so.

In any event, I stand corrected. :D

Phenom
November 9, 2006, 03:00 PM
Don't worry about it as it's no big deal. I'm currently in contact with Beretta to see if in fact it's illegal.

DoubleTapDrew
November 9, 2006, 04:40 PM
Why?

Phenom
November 9, 2006, 04:59 PM
That 93R wasn't built by Beretta, that's why;)

crunker
November 9, 2006, 06:25 PM
If you're a Class 2 Mfg then you can get GLOCK 18s without an LE letter. If you're an exporter/importer then you don't need a letter either.

If you're a Class 3 dealer, then you need a letter from LE saying that you are going to demonstrate it for them. Otherwise the BATFE will not approve your Form 4.

If you're a private citizen with less than about $30k to spend on a single firearm then you are screwed.

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