Oh God...


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MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 12:24 PM
I have no words... (http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2700.asp)

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Feanaro
May 19, 2003, 12:31 PM
Where are the Gestapo, the SS?

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 12:36 PM
Drilling here (http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2800.asp)

Feanaro
May 19, 2003, 12:37 PM
Looks like they are having fun trampling on our rights, eh? :barf:

cordex
May 19, 2003, 12:37 PM
*laugh*

I love it!

jmbg29
May 19, 2003, 12:38 PM
ACK!!!!!!:barf: :barf: :barf:

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 12:40 PM
The strange part is that this Dick Kramer guy seems to like AR15.com, too!
Dick Kramer.com - Your source for all your Tactical Artwork!". (http://www.dickkramer.com)
:banghead:

Kharn
May 19, 2003, 12:46 PM
Too bad they dont have a B&W ATF one, I cant see paying $45 for a poster. I also cant tell if its supposed to be pro or anti-ATF...

Kharn

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 12:49 PM
Kharn - here is a B&W ATF print. (http://www.dickkramer.com/images/prvu/2800.asp)

He's rather obviously Pro-ATF IMHO.

Kharn
May 19, 2003, 12:54 PM
MicroBalrog:
Knowing the history of the ATF, I'm leaning towards it coming off anti, but the artist being pro.
I also like the "Old Values...New Tactics"-line as its indicative of how they havent changed a bit since the 70's and early 80's infringements on gun owners that were cut back after the FOPA of '86, but the artist probably didnt think about that.

Kharn

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 12:57 PM
Let's put it this way, Kharn: The artist is Pro-ATF, but it sounds VERY ironic for anybody familiar with their tactics or values. Do I understand you correctly?

Feanaro
May 19, 2003, 01:06 PM
If only those posters weren't so expensive. I could use them for target practice...

CZ-75
May 19, 2003, 01:07 PM
Is this guy trying to be humorous?
This crap is as bad as any propaganda art created in N. Korea.

I particularly like the expression on the agent's face in the B&W print. He looks like he'd really get his jollies using that MP-5 on your wife and son after you sawed off a shotgun 1/2" under the limit.

Feanaro
May 19, 2003, 01:14 PM
I was thinking the same thing. They looked like the Nazis in our propaganda posters. Ugly, nasty faced men withg violence on their mind.

Frohickey
May 19, 2003, 01:17 PM
Kinda shows where your country is headed when the tax collectors have fully-automatic weapons with which to collect tax revenue. :cuss:

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 01:26 PM
If only those posters weren't so expensive. I could use them for target practice...


Well, you could do that with a 20mm Solothurn semi-auto...:D

Kharn
May 19, 2003, 01:28 PM
Microbalrog:
Let's put it this way, Kharn: The artist is Pro-ATF, but it sounds VERY ironic for anybody familiar with their tactics or values. Do I understand you correctly?

Yes, thats what I was trying to say.
Kharn

CZ-75
May 19, 2003, 01:35 PM
Anyone notice these works of "art" were signed in '92? Pre-Waco and contemperaneous w/ Ruby Ridge.

I'll never know why Bush I renounced his NRA membership when LaPierre called these clowns JBTs. It fits.

Ol' Badger
May 19, 2003, 02:19 PM
I'll put it in my bathroom, so It'll help me poop better!:D

JohnBT
May 19, 2003, 02:21 PM
Can I get one already, dare I say,...

FRAMED ?

John

Tamara
May 19, 2003, 02:31 PM
Tax cops.

Tax cops is all they are.

Weaselly little tax cops with machine guns and armored vehicles.

Willing to commit any crime to score a bust.

A blot on our nation.

A lugey on the face of any honest peace officer.

mdsteele
May 19, 2003, 04:57 PM
:barf:

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 04:59 PM
mdsteele: I couldn't have said it better myself.:D

bedlamite
May 19, 2003, 05:32 PM
Tax cops is all they are.

Now that they're with the Justice department, I'm not so sure. The rest of your asessment is spot on.

MicroBalrog
May 19, 2003, 05:34 PM
Now that they're with the Justice department, I'm not so sure.

But the laws they are enforcing are still tax laws . That is the "basis" for the "constitutional authority" to pass them - right?

El Tejon
May 19, 2003, 05:42 PM
F TROOP rides again!:D

Where's Ness's bottle of booze? Where's the depiction of F Troop planting evidence or going to the Good Ol' Boys Roundup?:confused:

[El Tejon sings] "Tax cops, tax cops, wha ja gonna do? What gonna do when we come for you?":D

LawDog
May 19, 2003, 06:48 PM
Mr. Kramer is an artist.

His chosen field of art is military/law enforcement/firefighters/EMS, and he genuinely likes the people he meets when drawing these subjects.

He has made many, many friends in creating his art, and those military/LE/firefighters/EMS who aren't his friends, are probably groupies of his.

He isn't drawing pictures of ATF agents, he's drawing pictures of friends of his who happen to be employed by the ATF.

You don't like his art, ain't nobody forcing you to buy it. Matter-of-fact, until just now I've only seen Dick Kramer artwork for sale in LE and military catalogs.

I would, however, leave off on the casting of the first stones until you've actually talked to the man, instead of glancing at one of his works and deciding that you have plumbed the deep, dark depths of his pysche.

Just my $.02.

LawDog

natedog
May 19, 2003, 07:01 PM
I'm sorry if this sounds ignorant, but what's so bad about the ATF? Are they not law enforcement officers, just like your county sheriff or city police department? Do they not simply inforce the gun control laws? Is it their fault that we have unconstitutional gun laws?

George Hill
May 19, 2003, 07:07 PM
I used to really like that guys artwork.
:scrutiny:
Dick Kramer is a wannabe goon.

Your Tactical Artist. To me that smacks of tacky in the genre of the self styled "Painter of Light".

:barf:

blades67
May 19, 2003, 07:18 PM
Just because he has friends that work for the atf doesn't mean they won't work very hard to get you to break the law, then kill your family without fear of being brought to justice.:barf:

Crimper-D
May 19, 2003, 07:20 PM
= BAD ART!
If the artist can't find a better 'nitch' to cater to, perhaps he should seek another means of making a living... like paperhanging! Just like another no - talent failed 'artist' with similar theories of how to run a country.:cuss: :neener:

El Tejon
May 19, 2003, 07:56 PM
natedog, what's so bad about the SS? The NKVD? The AVO?

I don't have any friends in the SS. Don't have any friends in ATF either. Who your friends are is a reflection on you.

CZ-75
May 19, 2003, 08:24 PM
Not to go on about the subject matter, but the composition is about what I'd expect from those guys who paint Velvet Elvises.

Cop or not, I wouldn't buy this stuff and rank it up there with Dale Earnhardt commemorative 1911s, Franklin Mint fantasy knives, collector spoons, colorized coins, and anything out of the FingerHut catalog.

Feanaro
May 19, 2003, 08:31 PM
I'm sorry if this sounds ignorant, but what's so bad about the ATF? Are they not law enforcement officers, just like your county sheriff or city police department? Do they not simply inforce the gun control laws? Is it their fault that we have unconstitutional gun laws?

To quote Cool Hand Luke "Just 'cause it's your job don't make it right". I'm sure the ATF had some good people in it. And I don't think they are the Gestapo... yet. And I'll bet Kramer is a good fella. But what he draws in this case isn't suited to my tastes. He can draw what he wants... and I can not like it and say so.

stevelyn
May 19, 2003, 09:18 PM
He's put a face on Evil.

Tamara
May 19, 2003, 11:29 PM
I would, however, leave off on the casting of the first stones until you've actually talked to the man, instead of glancing at one of his works and deciding that you have plumbed the deep, dark depths of his pysche.

You mean like when I chatted him up at SHOT this year when he autographed the FN poster that's hanging on my bedroom wall and (later) the calendar that's hanging over the desk I'm sitting at? Yeah, he's a nice guy. ;)

twoblink
May 19, 2003, 11:48 PM
All that's missing to complete the poster is "Get in the showers now!!"

:barf:

To say it totally lacks class... no no no... people like Rosie and her attack on Tom on national TV is a lack of class. This is a WHOLE different thing..

4v50 Gary
May 19, 2003, 11:53 PM
It's not about the ATF or guns guys. Artists make their money by making art that appeals to their patrons. Been that way for centuries and hasn't changed yet. Any organization can approach these artists and commission a print.

BTW, I've only bought one LE print & it's not a Kramer. Most of my prints are by Tom Freeman or Dick Smith. Airplanes & ships.

cool45auto
May 20, 2003, 12:06 AM
:eek: :eek:

Ivanimal
May 20, 2003, 02:07 AM
As I toured the Acadamia on the way to see "TheDavid" a glorious statue created by Michaelangelo I paused to think of the great works of Dick Kramer.:p

Give me a break! Those guys look like thugs in uniform.

winstonsmith
May 20, 2003, 02:18 AM
I dont know the artist. I only know his art. That being said...


SIEG HEIL!


:barf:

c_yeager
May 20, 2003, 03:27 AM
How DARE he paint picture of people we dont like!! :rolleyes:

Feanaro
May 20, 2003, 04:07 AM
How DARE he paint picture of people we dont like!!

Exactly!

MicroBalrog
May 20, 2003, 04:08 AM
How DARE we dislike his pictures!:D

Monte Harrison
May 20, 2003, 08:58 AM
SIEG HEIL!

lazhuward
May 20, 2003, 09:21 AM
Hmm… It’s law enforcement propaganda, but is it art?

I personally think there’s a lot of artistic merit to it.

However, I think Leni Riefenstahl is an artist too.

winstonsmith
May 20, 2003, 10:12 AM
Hey, I think I the pictures are very pretty.

Just like that Waffen/SS poster you see all over the place in pictures of WWII Europe.

Chaz
May 20, 2003, 11:44 AM
I'm sure that the artist is a very nice guy but I also understand why we get antsy about the painting. The ATF has screwed over lawful gun owners before.

Like may of us I would prefer the ATF to just go away. I see them as an unnecessary enforcment branch of the federal government. And of the many incidents I have read about them local law enforcment or the FBI could have performed these tasks.

It is true, If we dont like the painting we dont have to buy it/look at it. But it is reminicent of the propaganda posters of the nazi/communist eras.

CZ-75
May 20, 2003, 12:03 PM
It is true, If we dont like the painting we dont have to buy it/look at it. But it is reminicent of the propaganda posters of the nazi/communist eras.

One point, which is this stuff isn't forced on us by the govt., so we aren't commies yet.

Next point is that I think this "art" speaks volumes about those buying it. The ATF posters have guys in BDUs and Kevlar holding MP-5s and all the intimidation that entails. I'd aver that the folks buying this stuff have an authoritarian streak more than a mile wide (possibly some issues with how they were endowed by their Creator as well). Rather than blame the artist for painting what sells, we should look at who buys and why.

seeker_two
May 20, 2003, 12:32 PM
I'm waiting for the "Waco Tactical Vacation" & "Where's Elian?" special editions...:scrutiny:

cratz2
May 20, 2003, 03:06 PM
I kept looking for the one with Janet Reno dancing on the remnants of the Constitution holding a burning American flag with Brennan, Kennedy and Scalia clapping in one corner and Lon Horiuchi taking aim on Vicki Weaver in the other corner but I didn't see one. :rolleyes:

lostdog
May 20, 2003, 05:24 PM
what do the ATF, DEA, FBI, and SLED have in common....all places I wanna work. If ya can't beat em, join em

George Hill
May 20, 2003, 07:48 PM
I'm sure he is.
I've met and talked with Lon Horiuchi. Lon Horiuchi is a nice guy too.

MicroBalrog
May 20, 2003, 07:49 PM
I've met and talked with Lon Horiuchi
Seriously? :what: You aren't kidding?

George Hill
May 20, 2003, 08:13 PM
Yes... before the R.R. incident.

12-34hom
May 20, 2003, 09:25 PM
My, what open minded comments abound.

Certainly no cop bashing at THR... first a video - now some poster art.

What's next?? Inquiring minds must know.

12-34hom.

winstonsmith
May 20, 2003, 09:31 PM
Hey, hey, lets not get ahead of ourselves here. Cops are great.

I love cops. However, I hate paintings that make them look like the SS (and I dont mean Secret Service)

CZ-75
May 21, 2003, 12:50 AM
My, what open minded comments abound.

Yeah, and the Nazis were just "misunderstood." :rolleyes:

Certainly no cop bashing at THR... first a video - now some poster art.

Don't go around w/ Kevlar helmets and vests, BDUs, and MP-5s and we won't think you're a thug.

Oh, and don't kill women and children either. :rolleyes:

HBK
May 21, 2003, 01:28 AM
never mind

cordex
May 21, 2003, 01:41 AM
Certainly no cop bashing at THR... first a video - now some poster art.
I have the utmost respect for most cops, but I don't defend the ones that are scum. I don't believe that a scumbag who happens to be a police officer should get a free pass. Cops who screw up should be called on it.

Bashing bad cops isn't generalized cop bashing.

R127
May 21, 2003, 01:58 AM
I'm probably more outspoken about my, shall we say less-than-flattering views of law enforcement. The crux of my disdain is the fact that they enforce laws. What's wrong with that? Nothing, on the face of it, till you get a bunch of the wrong kinds of people passing the wrong kinds of laws. All the sudden they go from being enforcers of justice, and to a lesser degree keepers of the peace, to being the perpetrators of your oppression. "I was just following orders!" has never been an excuse that caried much weight with me.

That said, it isn't the vest and helmet that bothers me. I have and will wear a vest myself, it's a good idea. Now when you start talking about machineguns(sub-or-otherwise), black ninja suits replete with balaclava, APCs and an Us-versus-Them attitude, now we've got a problem on our hands.

Stop acting like JBTs, stop enforcing illegal laws, stop carrying out illegal commands, stop throwing grenades at elderly women, stop blowing away pets and geese for no reason, and you will stop getting compared to Gestapo and SS. LEOs are supposed to be entrusted with the duty to enforce justice and protect their fellow citizens, they aren't supposed to be above the law or or instruments of oppression.

These pictures are disturbing for the attitudes they reflect.

Cal4D4
May 21, 2003, 03:46 AM
This stuff is art. It evokes emotion just like a religious icon covered in dung evokes emotion. More than that it is an inkblot test of our state of mind. Do you see a well equiped, dedicated pro ready to face the dangers of his job or do you see an increasing infringement on our guaranteed rights? Both are correct.

Where does that agent of the government get his marching orders? Who finances him? Who sets the standards for conduct?
We do.
Who are the ones enforcing the guarantee on our guaranteed rights?
We are.

12.7x99mm
May 21, 2003, 06:19 AM
Looks like this guys only customers are going to be his subjects in his painting.

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