[12 Volt Man]

Here is an interesting story that happened to me over the weekend. I was on my way out to the west desert here in Utah to do some shooting. We had my Brother In Law's Suburban loaded with AK's, 10/22's, and Several Hand Guns. My Brother In Law and I both have Concealed Weapons Permits. He was carrying a 1911 in an IWB holster, and i had my XD9 concealled in a Pancake holster.
I was filling up his Suburban, and he took off inside to pay. I watched him walk by a truck with a fairly nice looking woman behind the drivers seat. He took a good long look at her as he walked by. Another guy in a "wife beater" came out of the gas station and walked towards my Brother In Law as he was checking out this girl. He came up and shoved my Brother In Law and said what the %#$@ are you looking at!! I take it this was his girlfriend.
I see the fight starting to break out. Was at an angle where the guy never would have seen me. I was actually on my way over to take this guy out. He would have been blindsided and never knew what hit him. This guy was a major dick and I wish we could have put him in his place.
As I got almost to where I could have thrown a punch at this guy, the guy takes a swing at my Brother In Law, so my Brother In Law ducks it and turned and walked away. I have never seen him walk away from a fight, especially when he did not start it. So I just walked on by the guy like I was on my way inside. I said to my Brother In Law, "What the #$%!, you are going to let that guy get away with that. He said, "I wanted to take him out more than anything, but I have my .45 on my hip." He felt like he would get in trouble if kicked a guys a$$ while carrying. The though never crossed my mind. I never even remembered that we were carrying. It wasn't a situation where the guns would have came out. Just a guy that would have got his world rocked real fast for being a dick.
The more I think about it, I feel like it was a good call. You never know what would have happened. If the LEOs came and found out we were carrying. Even though we basically would have been defending ourselves.

[TarpleyG]

It might have made a statement to the sheeple if one of you had laid this guy out and never resorted to presenting your firearm too...

GT

[Chipperman]

He made the right choice. We, as responsible people carrying firearms, need to take "The High Road" (sorry) and avoid petty altercations.

The GF will see what a jerk he is and leave him anyway.

[TarpleyG]

No she won't. She gets a kick out of stirring him up like that. Hell, she was probably winking and smiling at this guy as he walked by too. It's flattering to her that the BF acted this way and she is probably also abused in some fashion by the greaseball. Not that I was advocating beating the tar out of this fella, just pointing out a possible positive aspect if it did happen.

GT

[Coronach]

Your brother is right.

Getting in a fight with a perfect stranger over "his" girl in a gas station parking lot is pretty stupid. Yes, he did start it, but if you didn't take any reasonable steps to avoid it you are not being much more mature than he is. When you get down to it, you're still fighting over a girl like some 5th graders at recess.

(note: if he brings it and you try to be the bigger man and just can't get out of it, thats a different story. Note 2: I'm also not talking about legal definitions, here. Just plain common sense)

You're saying that you wouldn't draw your gun, or even think about it. OK, fine. But fights often turn into rasslin matches. Who's to say that he wouldn't draw your gun?

Its best to just not go there.

Mike

[spacemanspiff]

the 'macho man' complex is difficult to ignore, but there is never a true 'winner' in such situations. we as responsible adults who happen to be armed are always going to be expected to have the cooler head.

case in point: this last winter i was walking home one night and as i walked through the parking lot of a gas station some knucklehead who was about 15 yards away in his truck goosed the gas as i walked across the direction he was heading. what business does anyone have goosing the gas but to try and run down a pedestrian? so i shot him an angry look and uttered a curse word. apparently he can read lips, so he stops and follows me into the quickie mart, and confronts me. he asks "did you just call me an XXXXXXXXX?" i said "did you goose the gas as i walked in front of your truck?"
we bantered back and forth and he winds up telling me we should take it outside. i said 'well i've already said my piece, so theres not much that could be gained out there anymore.'
he goes back to his truck, but he drove around the lot and circled me twice more as i walked towards home.

i didnt back down. i didnt wuss out either. if he wanted to bring it, he could have. i'm glad he didnt, but in the future i'll just curse under my breath at idiots.

[Tamara]

No she won't. She gets a kick out of stirring him up like that. Hell, she was probably winking and smiling at this guy as he walked by too. It's flattering to her that the BF acted this way and she is probably also abused in some fashion by the greaseball.

Wow! That is one amazingly detailed prognostication, considering you were 2,000 miles away from the incident... :scrutiny:

[HankB]

Since getting my CHL, I find less urge to clobber some idiot who richly deserves it.

Take road rage as one example. (There are others.) I was never a hothead who'd start playing "chicken" with someone on the highway, but think about it - this is Texas, where some people carry guns. AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO!

Trying to start a fight with a stranger on the highway who may be armed is the mark of a fool. And if a fool flips me the bird or cuts me off, well, as long as I avoided a collision, what do I care what a fool thinks about me or my driving? Let him think I'm a wimp, too. I'm not drawing my sidearm unless I really, really need to use it. It's not there so I can threaten someone - even a fool - and there's no good reason to let him know what he's risking.

And there are lots of good reasons to just let it go.

And if he DOES continue to escalate, well, if I HAVE to resort to my sidearm, I'm going to be darned sure that all the escalation of the incident will be on HIS part, not mine.

Long winded, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Sounds like a good time for the pepper spray or a tazer. A shot to the face and then GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE, QUICK !

Yes, I find that I am a more forgiving person when some loser who has to prove his manhood needs to feel like a man. I think it bothers them more to ignore the outburst and smile at 'em. :cool:

And yes I have been punched in the face, I just wiped the blood from my lip and walked away smiling ! He punched like a GIRL !

[Standing Wolf]

Nothing quite so dramatic as the comments above: I've noticed I'm driving much more conservatively these days, even going so far as to use turn signals sometimes.

Feels weird.

[El Tejon]

"The greatest victories are those achieved without fighting." Son Tejonzu, Walking the Earf and Learning Stuff, Book I, Chapter 3.

"We study violence so that we may avoid violence." Son Tejonzu, Book of the Five Sushi Rolls.

"Those criminal defense lawyers, tilecrawlers, are expensive." Son Tejonzu,
The Book of 'Book a Class to Thunder Ranch someone got in a fight and needs me.'

[Gong sounds]

[Skunkabilly]

Ahhh...one thousand kowtows, sage El Tejon-san!

[bowing]

[Carlos Cabeza]

Skunky, If I may ask...............What's a cow toe.:D

[blades67]

Tamara, TarpleyG might be 2000 miles away, but he was probably absolutely correct about that female. I've been in that situation more than a few times, a number of times while I was working for Salt River Recreation during tubing season. Women don't stay with men like that unless they like them acting like that.

[Doug444]

Carlos,
Just about anything you hook up to her. They aren't too particular.;)

[jdege]

One of the requirements of a successful claim of self-defense is that you were a "reluctant participant". That is, you did nothing to create the situation in which you were involved.

You can't hurl abuse at someone, then shoot him when he throws a punch.

And the thing we all need to understand is that we don't get to judge whether our involvement helped create the situation, the jury does.

If you're ever in an argument that escalates to gunfire, you'd better hope that the witnesses thought you were trying to disengage and de-escalate the situation.

It's going to cost you thousands, if you pull your gun, even if you don't pull the trigger. But if you shoot the bastard, and the jury decides that you weren't a reluctant participant, it's going to cost you a lot more than that (like missing the next ten years of your children's lives).

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

In Texas, the law for CHL participants is that you can use deadly force to repel deadly force. It's that way for everyone here, but let's limit to CHL players for purposes of discussion in this instance so as not to muddy the waters. If Cretin Wifebeater verbally insults you, you have no standing to cap him. If he takes a swing and misses, you are still not obliged to cap him, but to retreat if possible. If not possible to retreat to end/defuse a conflict and subject presses his assault, then I refer back to a case in Texas (Houston, I think) which occurred shortly after the CHL was enacted where 2 drivers in slow, heavy traffic swapped a little paint.

Driver A exited his vehicle in traffic and confronted Driver B, who was driving a delivery van. Driver A struck Driver B through his open window. Driver B was restrained by his seat belt in his vehicle. Traffic was gridlocked. Driver A attempted to strike Driver B again. Driver B is a legal CHL holder. Driver B fired, hitting Driver A. Driver A dies. Driver B is no-billed by the grand jury under the finding that he acted reasonably and was unable to retreat from an attack. The grand jury considered Driver A to be using deadly force in his physical attack on Driver B. Driver B was found by the grand jury to be justified in his response as he was restrained by his mandatory seat belt, unable to move his vehicle because of traffic, and was physically smaller in stature and build than his attacker, Driver A and was afraid for his life.

It came out later that Driver A, the decedent, had recently moved to Texas from the Northwest, where he had been involved in a similar altercation under similar circumstances, with obviously a much different outcome.

The grand jury's decision to no-bill Driver B did not deter the heirs of Driver A from filing a wrongful death case against Driver B. I do not recall the result of that suit.

My analysis- if you're in a situation where you're armed and threatened, you'd better make good and sure it's a 'me-or-him' situation before you unlimber that boomstick. In Texas with our legal codes being what they are, even then sometimes all bets are off. It's different if you're in a 'public place' or on your own land after dark, to use 2 disparate examples. I'm certain one of the 'real lawyers' on this board would be glad to enhance this should it stray too much from an accurate synopsis.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[P95Carry]

It is reassuring (and, anti's take note) .... that we are pretty much like-minded on this matter.

Carrying brings with it an inate and awesome responsibility .... such that our piece is only there for use ''in extremis'' ...... it's only perps and BG's that act differently.

I always hated to leave any situation feeling ''cowardly'' .. but with age comes a bit of extra wisdom i think and now it is more desirable to either ''defuze'' or even just ''get the hell out''. The types who start these kinda shindigs are generally total *********s who seem to find it an ego-boosting passtime ....... always seemingly something to prove and never satisfied.

As CCW's it is definitely better to back off and avoid ...... tho I guess there may be times when a judicious ''flash'' of the piece could just have a decisive ''calming'' effect if things are near outa hand.

Every situation will in the end be unique and judged on its own merits and demerits.

[El Tejon]

P95, it has been my experience that the "my honour, suhr, I say, I say, my honour" types are all young and uneducated. They do not know, they only feel. It is up to us to educate them.:)

[P95Carry]

It is up to us to educate them We can try El Tej ..... we can but try!!:p :)

[Doc]

Since getting my CHL, I find less urge to clobber some idiot who richly deserves it.



couldn't say it better.

i find i have better situational awareness now, and avoid early and often.

[Jesse H]

I watched him walk by a truck with a fairly nice looking woman behind the drivers seat. He took a good long look at her as he walked by.

This guy was a major dick and I wish we could have put him in his place.

Sounds like there were 2 dicks in the situation.

[Ladybug]

No she won't. She gets a kick out of stirring him up like that. Hell, she was probably winking and smiling at this guy as he walked by too. It's flattering to her that the BF acted this way and she is probably also abused in some fashion by the greaseball. Not that I was advocating beating the tar out of this fella, just pointing out a possible positive aspect if it did happen.

Wait a minute... so the brother-in-law rudely stares at some "hot" woman, and the other guy has a high school moment and wants to pick a fight over it... and this is somehow the woman's fault?!? I'm sure she gets a kick out of being beaten and asks for it, and probably runs around at night in miniskirts just ASKING to be raped...

:rolleyes:

[Coronach]

Ok, ok...enough. Now we're all playing to stereotypes. ;)

1. Its possible the woman in question enjoyed the display of macho posturing. We all know that these females exist.

2. Its possible that the bro-in-law leered at her like a neanderthal dropped into a Victoria Secrets lingerie show, and the boyfriend just couldn't pass that one up. We all know these males exist.

What we don;t know is if it was one, the other, both, or neither, and it really doesn't matter, does it?

Now, lets get back on the high road and on topic, mmmm'k?

Mike ;)

[Zundfolge]

We had a similar discussion back on TFL.

I find that carrying is almost a zen thing ... I find myself less reactionary and less easy to anger while I'm armed. In fact I find myself more at ease and cheerful when armed.

I think its more then just that you know you will be able to defend yourself should the need arise, I think its more a sense of overall preparedness.

I also think that when armed, you have in the back of your mind the notion that your actions now carry the weight of life and death. When you compare the small transgressions of the idiots of the world against life and death, their actions seem so small and insignificant.

Maybe I'm getting too deep :neener:

Heinlein said it best "An armed society is a polite society."

[twoblink]

[Edited by Coronach to keep this on the High Road. :rolleyes:]

[winwun]

Zund, I don't think I will ever see the concept described more accurately.

Doc, you were 100% right, also.

Something I find myself doing is studying the factors of a "confrontational situation". I find that in many instances the person who instigates is small in stature, leading to the classic "Napoleon Complex". If vehicles are involved, they will often be old and generally unkempt. The neighborhood, or location, is often less than upscale. Being aware of these factors, (and others) and trying to avoid them goes a long way toward avoiding (which is MUCH better than defusing) a "situation".

If we could be assured that all we would get are a few lumps, then it would be different.

An important thing to remember is the old standard, AVOID EYE CONTACT.

[citizen]

ANY time you have to defend or explain your actions afterward;
you're in trouble.

Avoid trouble. :uhoh:


(Just 1 of MY rules.)

[Gilmore]

For me carrying weapons changes everything, i feel less "liberated" and am far more serious. I knew horse play and fist fights were over the day i recieved my CWL. That means "punking out" of all those would be confrontations, it stings but that is the price we must accept.

It helps to be able to physically "deflect and subdue" someones attacks without having to make lumps and draw blood if at all possible.

Non lethal weapons can play i big role. I always have mace and an ASP baton.

Improving your verbal skills is also IMO a must, The book Verbal Judo by George J. Thompson Ph.D. & Jerry B. Jenkins has helped me many times over, and highly recomend it.

[chrisb507]

My knowledge on this topic is limited to what I learned by reading Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme."

He relates a comment that he has heard from those who carry concealed: "I would've punched that guy in the face if I wasn't carrying a gun."

The reason to avoid a fight is that, since you're carrying, you know how it can end. Say you (not you personally, 12 Volt) take a swing at the Wife Beater Dude. Say he has a friend in the store, or a bat in his truck. In a few seconds, you're on the ground getting stomped, multiple assailants, baseball bats. You now fear for your life. You draw your weapon and shoot. That's OK, since your life was in danger, right?

Maybe. But in court, you'll need to go over everything that lead up to that point. Could you have walked away? Why did you take a swing at the guy? Why did you get into a fight that lead to you using deadly force? You were carrying a gun, why couldn't you ignore this dolt? Everything that leads up to the use of deadly force will likely be considered.

I guess this is a long way of paraphrasing Ayoob: avoid the fight, if at all possible, when you're carrying.

[Doc]

We should all strive to emulate Jesus Christ who was the perfect role model of Meekness:
power, (ultimate power) under control
He showed anger (money changers in the temple), righteous indignation WHEN appropriate but clearly avoided unwarranted conflict and stupid dangers

Doc

[El Tejon]

Emulate Hayzeus??? Hey, Doc, way ahead of you. I rendered unto the Wromans in April!:D

[Doc]

...now give us this day our daily ammo...

...lo though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil for my rod and my staff shall comfort them who trespass against me...

[El Tejon]

From the Gospel: ". . . and he reached into his range bag and brought out ammo for the masses . . ."

From the Gospel ". . . one day Hayzeus was instructing at API when the chief scribes of the Temple of the Kaliforistan gun rag came up to him and saith, 'By what authority are you teaching these people that wearing flowered shirts and pointing guns at yourself is inane?'"

From Acts: " . . .now Peter and Kirk were going to the sacred skul in the province of Tejas during the hour of learning. A man ran up to them and cried out, 'pity me, for I have no magazines for my AR.' Peter said silver and gold I do not have; but I give you the name of Urban Carbine, now shoot!"

[Doc]

now one day the apostles Peter (which means 'one of the small gun' in Saltstone) and Kirk (which mean 'bolt the door and load the magazines in Flambic)
were seated at the feet of the master
and a noviciette came forth and proclamed:
"If you were doing an EP and the principal came under attack, you should push him toward cover and engage the BG's by aiming through your legs, so as not to slow yourself down, wasting time turning around and all. What do u think of that?"

And Master Ray said, "If it was me, I'd know that I was expendible and I would turn around and shoot the BG as well as I could so that he no longer posed a threat to me, since the principal was already wisked away by the waiting vehicle and I was the only remaining target for the BG."

And the noviciette was very sad as the Master did not find his "Tactics" HOLY and CURRECT. So her sought out others of lesser knowledge and abilities to impress with his heresy...

[SquirrelNuts]

I find myself trying to avoid more if I can. The reason being this: No one knows that I am carrying, and thus I do now know who else is carrying.

-SquirrelNuts

[4 eyed six shooter]

Great thread. It shows the quality of the people who are on this board. As much as it sometimes hurts your ego, it is best to walk away when possible. As stated, every move you made from the first time you made contact with a person will be looked at if there is a shooting. I have had to pull twice when in plain cloths and off duty (I was a LEO at the time). Both times it was a robbery attempt. One with a knife, the other a piece of pipe. Both happened very quickly. Both times the idiot ran for his life without a shot being fired. In both cases I saw it comming, went into condition red, looked for a way out but had no time to extract myself from the situation. I sure there would have been other times when it could have been deadly force issue if I hadn't had left or talked my way out. When you have the mindset that you really don't have anything to prove to some idiot, you are on the right track. I do have to admit that I loved the look on their faces when they saw my .45. :evil: :neener:

[winwun]

While respecting the right of someone to speak their mind, I feel the need to say that I find the crude paraphrasing of the scriptures very offensive.

Perhaps I also occasionally offend, if so, I apologize.

[Sulaco]

I didn't read all of these posts because I have A.D.D., but I would like to add some thoughts.

The day I decided to carry a concealed weapon, I became the biggest p*ssy in the world. I will back down from anyone anytme. I will scream HELP! in the face of danger and hope like hell that all those around me remember me doing so when the time comes. I absolutely will not draw my weapon unless I fear for my life or the life of someone I care about. The judicial system is stacked against people using deadly force in a self defense situation and that will not change anytime soon (at least where I live).

Only a select number of people (who know me personally) know that I carry concealed. Hopefully, the same can be said 20 or even 30 years from now.

An ego is the first thing a person should loose when they decide to carry a lethal weapon for protection. That is, unless they like prison.


I think your brother (I think it was your brother?) made the correct decision and is alive and well, and more importantly, not in prison because of his ability to think on his feet.

Please read this thread on glocktalk about someone who has actually used his weapon in self defense.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=126319&highlight=involved+shooting

Here is an excerpt;

"So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer."

"GT'er" is slang for a member of the glocktalk forum.

[Carlos Cabeza]

winwun, BLASPHEMOUS HOOSIERS !:D
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[TallPine]

Blessed are the open-minded, for they shall have a sense of humor.

[SquirrelNuts]

Blessed are the open-minded, for they shall have a sense of humor. That is too funny! I will have to share that with my pastor.

-SquirrelNuts

[El Tejon]

TallPine, be on the lookout for the THRiban.:uhoh:

[Doc]

amen,
brother tall pine

man is created in God's image
God has a sense of humor
(don't believe me, fine, we'll get to discuss it in the hereafter)

I am a fundementalist, literalist, Pre-Trib, Millilenialist, Calvinist, just for the record.