Sad day, Knight Rifles may be history...


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Rembrandt
November 6, 2006, 10:04 PM
Got word today from family in the Centerville, Iowa area that Knight Rifles closed its doors today. Don't know if they have any other manufacturing sites, but Centerville was the original location. First Austin-Halleck, now Knight....market must have gotten saturated with in-lines.

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Chawbaccer
November 6, 2006, 10:40 PM
I think the market got saturated with cheap inlines. When a company makes a good, popular product,the imatators take over and all they have to offer is a cheaper porduct.

riddleofsteel
November 6, 2006, 10:52 PM
It is the Walmart mentality at its best. Anyone that wants one of those Spanish barrel inlines are welcome to them. I can not imagine setting off three pellets of Pyrodex or 777 next to my face in a barrel that is not even proof tested for over 30,000 PSI according to thier Spanish proof marks.

If you want a good muzzleloader take a look at a Savage ML II or an Ultralight Arms 209 if you can afford one. With either rifle you get proof tested barrels, USA made equipment and the ability to burn smokeless power if you want to. I started using a Savage ML II this season and the smokeless is the way to go. Shoot it and clean it like a regular rifle.

arcticap
November 7, 2006, 12:04 AM
It's too bad they are moving, but it doesn't appear to be the end of the company or their rifles:

http://www.dailyiowegian.com/local/local_story_307115821.html

http://www.dailyiowegian.com/local/local_story_310104446.html?keyword=secondarystory

Plink
November 7, 2006, 05:31 PM
If they were going out of business, I'd say good riddance to them, but another inline maker would just step up to fill the niche. Personally, I'd like to see muzzleloader season get back to it's roots, instead of just becoming another high performance rifle season like the centerfire season already is.

riddleofsteel
November 7, 2006, 06:34 PM
The best thing that could happen to muzzleloaders in general would be the return of blackpowder or a replica that acts like it. Pyrodex and 777 ect. is crap IMHO.

Gewehr98
November 7, 2006, 11:38 PM
We shooters are trying to keep the shooting sports and hunting heritage from dying a slow, agonizing death. Fewer and fewer younger generations are taking up the tradition - and yet we have shooters cutting our own throats because they don't like the "other kind" of muzzleloader. I've been reading the anti-inline threads both here and on the Goex forums, and the venemous intolerance is truly something to behold, it rivals some of the most rabid anti-gun diatribes out there.

"Modern" scoped inline muzzleloaders are not a new concept, far from it. Inline muzzleloaders were appearing as early as the 18th century, and Confederate Civil War snipers took great advantage of scoped Whitworth rifles.

For some reason, those who feel threatened by inline muzzleloaders think there's an unfair advantage proffered by those firearms, either in accuracy or muzzle velocity. Never mind the fact that the inline ignition system is no more direct an ignition source of the main powder charge than underhammer and sidehammer rifles. It could be argued that the latter are in fact more direct than in-lines because there is no breech plug, especially when one uses a musket cap nipple. Likewise, accuracy and power are by no means the exclusive domain of the current crop of inline muzzleloaders. See "Whitworth" above if you doubt it, then do a search for the Gibbs muzzleloading rifle for further examples of accurate frontstuffers.

What rubs the traditionalists wrong is that the inlines can be more reliable in foul weather, and that these new "ugly" guns allow hunters to take advantage of the muzzleloading deer seasons, something they had exclusively to themselves, and now it's just plain sour grapes that they have to share. Until the state wisened up, the traditionalists even got Colorado to temporarily ban the inlines.

What they conveniently forget is that the guns are still loaded one shot at a time from the muzzle end, and that a state's Department of Natural Resources really dictates how long a season and how many muzzleloaders can head to the woods each fall, based on how they want to manage the herd population. Be it the archery season, blackpowder season, centerfire season, or sharp pointy stick season, it's all a wildlife conservation and management tool.

Truthfully, the black powder shooting industry would be little more than a cottage effort without the legions of outdoorsmen who buy charcoal burners for hunting. Were it not for the debut of the "modern" inline muzzleloaders, there would be far fewer shooters out there at the range and in the woods. To disparage those folks in the blatantly hostile manner I've witnessed is neither fair nor particularly High Road. :(

Plink
November 8, 2006, 05:58 PM
I'm not disparaging anyone and I'm not one on those boards flaming inline shooters. The initial hostility in my post was aimed at Knight Muzzleloading for their continued support of Toby Bridges, when others like Pedersoli and Goex haved wised up and pulled such support.

To many of the folks using the inlines, the muzzleloading season is just another "long range rifle season", another chance to get a deer, with no respect or regard to the it's heritage and original intention.

It doesn't bother me at all that inlines are more weatherproof. I put a silicone band over my cap to weatherproof it also. I'm sure it bothers the flintlock hunters that I even use a caplock, and especially a weatherproofed one.

My gripe isn't so much with the inline guns themselves, as it is with the fact that the muzzleloading season is being turned into a long distance rifle season. The guns are becoming more advanced all the time. With the advent of the new nitro powder burning front stuffers, the situation is just getting worse. Where will it end? "Muzzleloaders" with the ballistics of a .300 Winmag? I mean afterall, if you stuff it down the front of the barrel, that makes it a muzzleloader, right? A line needs drawn somewhere.

By their very nature, muzzleloading guns have always had limitations. That's why smokeless centerfires became so popular, so fast. Today's muzzleloaders are turning into nothing more than "caseless smokeless centerfires".

What needs to happen here is both sides getting together and setting some realistic restrictions to preserve the original intent of the season. I'd like to see nitro powder and the sabot banned from muzzleloading season. Make it for BP and substitutes, and round ball or lead conical only. This would let those who prefer modern styled guns to hunt right along side those who prefer traditional styled ones. With pretty much the same limitations and within the original intent of the season.

Regardless of the style of gun used, the essence of muzzleloading has always been a lead ball or lead bullet. If someone wants to hunt with a Whitworth, more power to them.

If you've ever shot using one of those 3 foot brass scopes, you'd know why they were never popular for hunting. I don't know where I stand on modern optics, but if the season was restricted to ball or conical only, I don't think it would matter.

The bow hunters had to deal with the techno stuff infesting their season also. They came together, worked it out and set some reasonable restrictions, which included restricting crossbows use, even though there's a lot more historic precedence for crossbows than there is for inline muzzleloaders.

That's why my comment about wanting to see muzzleloading season return to it's roots. It's not about the inline guns. It's about it turning into a long distance rifle season, when it was never intended to be one.

riddleofsteel
November 8, 2006, 06:16 PM
Sure.....let's have a traditional archery season with long bows only with no sights or plastic allowed. Then a week later let the recurve guys come in to hunt then a week later the compound bows could take the field.
When muzzleloading season comes around let the flintlock guys with round balls only get the first week then the percussion guys get three days then the inlines can hunt for the final weekend.
And for modern rifles. Why do the guys with scopes get to hunt with me when I use open sights? Shouldn't I get a special season?

See what I mean....The muzzleloader season is just that, a muzzleloader season. At least it is in NC. This fact drives the industry to perfect the muzzleloading rifle. If you set boundries people will improvise within them for a hunting advantage. This is what is happening now. My smokeless muzzleloader has near the same ballistics as a .375 H&H Magnum. It wears a modern scope and at a distance you can not tell the difference in it and a stainless Savage bolt action.

Muzzleloading blasphamy????

D*mn right!!

Sweet blasphamy to this old man with eyes too tired for open sights and too tired of the Pyrodex crap the Walmarts of the world force on me.

Plink
November 9, 2006, 05:34 PM
Well, there ain't a heckuva lot of improvising they can do if limited to round ball or lead conical. The sabots and smokeless high performance muzzleloaders could be used during regular rifle season. I use a muzzleloader during regular season most of the time too. It would keep muzzleloading season from turning into "just an extension of regular rifle season" which it's becoming.

I'm not for splitting dozens of seasons as there's no reason to. The archery folks did it right. Crossbows were their "sabots" and were removed from the season. Everyone else got along fine, regardless of the style of bow they choose to hunt with. Consequently, one archery season. Remove the smokeless muzzleloaders and sabots from muzzleloading season, and traditional shooters and inliners would do the same, under the same limitations that defined a "muzzleloader" when the season was conceived.

I know that most modern high performance muzzleloaders don't want "inconvenienced" by limitations, but face it, those limitations are what defines a muzzleloader in the spirit of which the season was created. I don't see any other option though. We can either stay divided and continue to bicker, or come together and work on a solution. I'm sure bowhunting went through these same growing pains when compound bows came on the market, but they worked it out in the end.

Gewehr98
November 9, 2006, 06:31 PM
Is there an arbitrary range listed somewhere where one cannot use a muzzleloader to engage a target, be it paper, deer, or redcoat? I've never seen such language used to define what is and isn't allowed in the woods during muzzleloading season, and know very well that long-range black powder shooting is common since rifles took over for smoothbore muskets, and that happened in flintlock days, btw. Again, see Ferguson, Whitworth, Gibbs, Kentucky Rifles, you name it. The Americans were particularly vexing to British officers, who on occasion had their horses shot out from under them at distances of 400 yards. Horse - deer, you tell me which is the tougher target. If I want to take a whitetail at 400 yards using either a Civil War Whitworth .45 or Knight sabot frontstuffer, what's the difference, and who will be impudent enough to tell me I can't?

Even Chuck Hawks has come out with a few words for the vociferous traditionalists and their fight against modern inline muzzleloaders:

The specific distance at which an individual might be comfortable shooting game is not for me to say. The absence of a scope on a rifle in no way insures accurate shot placement or short range shots. It just adds visual aiming error and an extra sighting plane. Scopes exist to help you see what you are shooting at, and to allow for more accurate shot placement. No scope or rifle is directly connected to the most important component: the nut behind the butt.

I certainly do not begrudge those who, leaving this article on the Internet, wish to fantasize that they are now subsistence hunters with no access to electricity, or that stepping out of their SUV is part of yesteryear that suddenly begins sans horse with the wearing of funny clothes. However, those who insist that their personal fantasy is somehow the ONLY morally correct one have been appropriately rewarded for their intolerance: their numbers shrink every year.

As for the crossbow argument, I'm looking at the Wisconsin bow season regs, and sure enough, there they are - crossbows! My dad, at age 75, is actually going to use his Barnett crossbow for deer season next year. Nationwide, I see many states allowing crossbows, see here:

http://www.barnettcrossbows.com/crossbowregulations.htm

Again, I see nothing but sour grapes and intolerance, which precludes divide and conquer. Deer season in this day and age is strictly a management tool as dictated by a state's Department of Natural Resources for the purpose of herd management. Whining about inline ignition is no more productive than flintlock shooters complaining about the benefits of percussion caps, or matchlock shooters grousing about flintlocks, cutting their noses off to spite their faces. Perhaps in the spirit of compromise and the real motive behind the primitive game season, the ground rules should mandate flintlocks or touch hole handgonnes with handheld slow matches, or even sharp pointy sticks as an across-the-board leveling tool to keep traditionalists happy. :(

TooTech
November 9, 2006, 06:43 PM
When I started out with handguns I bought wonder-nine automatics. Now I buy old Colts, and Freedom Arms revolvers.

When I started rifle shooting I bought a Weatherby and an AR-15, now I buy vintage Winchester lever guns.

For muzzleloading I shoot a TC Omega.

It's evolution. The more you learn about a sport the more likely you are to move into it's more challenging aspects.

If everyone has to start off in the "deep end", there will be a lot fewer people swimming.

Besides, I don't know about YOUR state, but Minnesota has a PLENTITUDE of deer.

riddleofsteel
November 9, 2006, 08:42 PM
When archery seasons were first put into law the high tech bow was the glass laminated recurve. So in that line of thought the compound is the "sabot/smokeless" of the recurve world. In the really old days we built our own long bows from laminations of wood and leather or fiber glass.
Now you are trying to tell me that a Mathews Switchback shooting carbon fiber arrows tipped with expanding disposable broadheads, held and released by a trigger shooting aid is a bow in the same concept as a Fred Bear Kodiak recurve shooting wooden arrows with flat broadheads you have to sharpen yourself?
:what:
Sure it is. And sure it is not. Your have to pull and hold both back and release them both to shoot. Other than that they are light years apart. The Switchback is a kinetic string gun compared to the laminated fiberglass and wood Kodiak. Of course remember that the laminated recurve was an improvment over the long bow.

The point here is simple. Rather than making things better you are the one driving the wedge, the wedge between hunters. If it shoots an arrow and you have to hold it back it is a bow. Therefore legal during archery season. Not antique weapons season, archery season.
If it loads from the muzzle it is a muzzleloader and legal during muzzleloader season. Some states have experimented with flinklocks only and no sabots and no scopes to a limited degree of success. I suggest you move to one of those fine states.
As for NC we all get along fine here. During archery season I observed a young man with a long bow that had harvested a fine buck with his own handcrafted wooden arrows. Man that took me back 40 years to when I hunted the same way. However his hunting partner who had a bad shoulder was packing a crossbow. Here in NC we allow that with a doctor's note. I did notice his high tech string gun had not put a deer on his truck.

oneshooter
November 9, 2006, 10:44 PM
Ya'll know my feelings on this subject. I shall remain silent.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

mothernatureson
November 10, 2006, 09:55 AM
Good riddance. I am sorry about anyone in Centerville losing their job. All the in lines have done is crowd the woods with nimrods trying to extend the shotgun/rifle season. Im not a bowhunter, but I see the major catalogs of outdoors gear are now selling crossbows. I know, some of you will say, "We have got to stick together as sportsmen, and not have this bickering over forms of hunting weapons". I've paid my dues.

riddleofsteel
November 10, 2006, 10:13 AM
I was jesting earlier about the micro division of the hunting seasons but some real primitive hunting days would be interesting. They don't have to be statewide and could be held on public land or on land that does not get much hunting pressure otherwise.
I would like to see guys out with flintlocks and round patched ball ammo or guys out with long bows, wooden arrows and non disposible broadheads. Let's leave out the cammo and tree stands as well. It would interesting to see how many deer are killed.
I remember hunting with homemade long bows and muzzleloaders we built from kits. I always seemed to get a deer but not as often as with today's equipment.
My first buck was killed with a homemade longbow shooting cedar arrows tipped with a two blade broadhead made from spring steel. I was wearing a green plaid shirt and brown wool pants. My face was striped with stove black.
My first muzzleloader deer was killed with a flintlock Kentucky rifle I built from an kit from Italy. I browned the hardware and barrel and hand rubbed the stock with linseed oil. The balls were handcast from wheel weights and fishing sinker lead. We cut our own patches and greased them with Crisco and beeswax mixture. I was wearing a fringed blanket coat and an orange wool cap when I put a ball thru a fat doe in a pine thicket.

Good memories

.38 Special
November 10, 2006, 12:40 PM
Well, I guess I'll take it easy on "banning" inlines from the field.

Let's just say I'll feel sorry for all those poor, deluded schlubs who are cheating themselves out of the blackpowder experience by relying on plastic and stainless abortions loaded with rabbit pellets and pistol bullets and who then separate themselves from the real world with glass, nitrogen, and 250 yards.

:neener:

22-rimfire
November 10, 2006, 02:29 PM
Great thread by the way. I am a fence sitter on this issue. Where I grew up, muzzle loader meant primitive and did not include inlines. Where I live now, they allow inlines and I just got one. Why? I just wanted to join the fun. If I like it, I may buy a more primitive muzzle loader (probably a Hawken). Here in TN they allow crossbows now and I am against it (except for handicapped hunters) for the same sort of reasons as Plink passionately expresses his feelings on muzzle loaders. Some states had long debates about allowing compound bows during archery deer season.

I hunt deer with a revolver. I would like to see revolvers included as an option during black powder season here. The effective range is less than most modern inlines. I would prefer that only straight sided cartridges be allowed and that be limited to .357 mag or larger with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches. No centerfire "rifle" handguns for deer except during rifle season. I'm not winning any friends with that statement.

I also don't care for para-military rifles (i.e. SKS, AR15 and similar, AK47 clones, Mini-14, Mini-30, etc.) being acceptable for deer hunting. I would even be comfortable with a flat rule not allowing ANY semi-automatic rifle or shotgun for deer hunting. So we all have our little rants and preferences as to what is appropriate for deer hunting.

As far as Knight goes, they will continue to make black powder rifles. They were somewhat innovative, but the innovation wave went to CVA and TC. I hate to see anyone loose their jobs. At least they aren't relocating to China.

Plink
November 10, 2006, 06:41 PM
Long range shooting in a war situation is a completely different beast. Shooting the horse out from under someone, or maybe hitting the rider in an arm, well any hit is a good hit. I'd like to think that deer hunters are more ethical than that and insist on putting their shots in the kill zone. If they can do that with a Whitworth or whatever, more power to them. A lead conical is a lead conical.

When we get into sabots and nitro based powder, we are getting off course though. Centerfire ballistics=centerfire season. Like I say, I have nothing against inline guns. Using smokeless powder and sabot during centerfire season, then using black powder or substitute and round ball or conical during muzzleloader season, makes an inline gun a versatile choice. But turning muzzleloader season into an extension of centerfire season is what I stand against.

I'm not one of those running around screaming that inlines must be banned, etc. But the inliners can complain about the traditionalists all they want and it's not going to get anything done. They're not going to stop. The only thing that's going to work is some compromise. What I offered above is only my suggestion on the compromise. Perhaps there are better solutions, and I'd like to hear them if there are.

"The traditionalists should just drop it" isn't going to work, so we either stand divided, or pull together to find a solution. I'm already standing in my version of middle ground. They want inlines banned. I don't. I just want the season returned to it's roots by whatever is the least intrusive means possible.

CROWHOP
November 10, 2006, 06:54 PM
Isnt the whole point of ML season to get close and make yourself a better hunter?I shot a doe this year at 50- 60 yards and it was the best hunting experience I have ever had.Im with plink on this one.I dont care what a guy uses.Maybe a guy with an inline will want more of a challenge and go traditional.

Gewehr98
November 11, 2006, 12:47 AM
The whiners have made my decision for me, so here's my next deer rifle for BP season, the Hawken will stay at home. For the uneducated, it's a replica of an 1865 English Gibbs - a contemporary of the Whitworth and every bit as accurate at long range. So, is it traditional enough for the purists, or not? I wont disparage the person who doesn't feel comfortable with long-range hunting because they can't hit the vital zone of a deer past 50 yards, but don't dare tell me I can't take the shot with my own frontstuffer, vernier sights or otherwise. :scrutiny: (Gary, about that Whitworth-barreled flintlock, just say the word!)

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/DSC_0001.JPG

I for one don't believe it's the inliners making the most heat and friction. They're happy to be out there in the woods putting venison in the freezer. So now that Toby Bridges decides to push back at the traditionalists, it's the Spanish Inquisition all over again. Reading this and other forums, it's the traditionalists making the biggest stink, and lest we forget, Chuck nailed that one squarely on the head:

I certainly do not begrudge those who, leaving this article on the Internet, wish to fantasize that they are now subsistence hunters with no access to electricity, or that stepping out of their SUV is part of yesteryear that suddenly begins sans horse with the wearing of funny clothes. However, those who insist that their personal fantasy is somehow the ONLY morally correct one have been appropriately rewarded for their intolerance: their numbers shrink every year.

So if the traditionalists choose not to drop it, that's their prerogative. They're already in the minority, and on the verge of being on the outside looking in. Funny thing is, a lot of the beginner inliners I see at the range are so intrigued with their new hobby they often consider a more traditional percussion or flintlock gun as their next frontstuffer. Were I one of those self-righteous types with a flinter or sidehammer percussion rig, I'd think the smartest move would be to welcome them into the world of vintage toys with open arms.

In the meantime, a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader, a bow is a bow, and a sharp pointy stick is a sharp pointy stick. The Department(s) of Natural Resources dictates how many deer they want harvested each year depending on herd size, Chronic Wasting Disease, natural predators, forage, harshness of winter, and other factors. All the hunters do is simply abide by that yearly edict with whatever tool they need for the time of season.

Myself, I killed a deer with a snare and axe in combat survival school back in 1989. I think that's the common place where the playing field should be leveled if folks want to make a stink about "primitive" hunting. Leave the SUV at home, too. ;)

Plink
November 11, 2006, 06:39 AM
So, is it traditional enough for the purists, or not?

I wouldn't know. I'm not a purist. It's a gorgeous gun though, and runs along the lines I've been looking at, myself. That or perhaps a nice Scheutzen rifle. I'm wanting to get deeper into the target shooting aspect of muzzleloading.

So if the traditionalists choose not to drop it, that's their prerogative. They're already in the minority, and on the verge of being on the outside looking in.

I highly doubt they'll be on the outside looking in. There's too many decades of success behind them. Worst case scenario, nothing changes. Best case scenario, we all come to some compromises, and we all keep right on a huntin'. There's a LOT of momentum and activity on the traditional side of things after Toby kicked the sleeping dog.

Funny thing is, a lot of the beginner inliners I see at the range are so intrigued with their new hobby they often consider a more traditional percussion or flintlock gun as their next frontstuffer. Were I one of those self-righteous types with a flinter or sidehammer percussion rig, I'd think the smartest move would be to welcome them into the world of vintage toys with open arms.

I shoot with a lot of inline shooters. We often take turns on each other's guns and fun is had all around. Some fall into one camp or the other, and some own both kinds. Some of the inlines I've shot fit me better than my traditional styled guns.

I couldn't agree more that welcoming new shooters is hugely important to our sport.

.38 Special
November 11, 2006, 11:19 AM
So, is it traditional enough for the purists, or not?
Not even close. I'm deeply offended, I think such guns should be banned, and I think you should at least recieve probabtion -- if not jail time -- for even considering the use of one.

So where can I get mine?

Plink
November 11, 2006, 07:45 PM
BTW, is that the Pedersoli version of the Gibbs? Those things have been cleaning up in long range competition. The price is good too.

ocharry
November 16, 2006, 01:33 PM
hi guys ,, i have read all this stuff and for me it's the hunt ,,and i do it with a traditional 54 round ball gun that i built from scratch,,,i don't care for the inline stuff,, i think they look like modern bolt guns ,,and some of them have bolts:rolleyes: and i guess that's ok,, it's all in what you want and how you want it,,, for me it's black powder and a round ball,,,i like to do my deer hunting up close and personal,,,,like i have out smarted mr. smarty pants in his house,,,, but that's just me,,, anyway that's not why i got in here,, PLINK,,, you said you wanted to get deeper into target shooting ,,,,, well i just happen to have a sheutzen style rifle that i don't think i am going to use and i think i would like to see it go to a good home where it will be loved and cared for.... it is a 54cal. 32"(if i IIRC douglas) barreled gun,,, it has tang sights and a globe front,,, it is a cap lock,,, it has tiger stripe maple stock and forearm....i have moved past this gun to the bpcg game and it has just sat in the safe for about 12 or so years:o ..... if you are interested pm me your e-mail and i will send some pixs;) .....

ocharry

USMC - Retired
November 16, 2006, 02:18 PM
All the fighting amongst ourselves only serves to help those that would ban hunting completly. A muzzle loader is a muzzle loader is a muzzle loader. I makes no difference if it is a modern in-line using tipple 7 pellets and .209 shotshell primers or a matchlock using FF black powder hand made by the shooter wearing buckskins and a coon hat. They all load from the front and have a slower rate of fire than cartrige guns. I mean where does it stop? Sone say "Hey! No in-lines, not primative enough" then others say, "Better not use that sidelock cap gun, your not a real muzzle loader unless you have a Frizzen", "Oh no, no flintlocks, you gotta have a matchlock". "Whats with all these mechanical firing systems? A touchhole and a burning punk is the only true way to do it!" Gimme a break guys, "We have to stand together or we shall all surely hang seperately":cuss:

Loyalist Dave
November 16, 2006, 03:51 PM
Semper Fi Brother,

The only problem we have here in the Peoples Republic of Maryland, is the high proliferation of suburban sprawl, near to public and private hunting lands. Most of the central counties of the state prohibit high powder rifles for hunting, but allow shotguns and muzzleloaders. Now Knight and their defacto lobbyist, Toby Bridges, advocate very high muzzle velocities. The loads they like to tout are equivalent to .45-120 cartridges, and long range shots. Now I as an avid flinter, I have no problem with the inlines, and I have one myself for curiosity and hunter safety instruction sake, BUT...,

What worries me is when a hunter with one of these maxed-out in-line rifles goes for that long shot, misses, and that bullet comes down out of the hunting zone and into the neighborhood. Sure, my round ball or my 12 ga slug could do the same, but it's less likely, and hasn't happened in 30 years. Perhaps I am over-worried, but if it does happen, the knee jerk reaction will be to eliminate all rifles, and we'll be limited to rifled slugs in the old smooth barrels.

LD

USMC - Retired
November 16, 2006, 04:27 PM
Thats where we need to do our part to educate our fellow hunters on reposponsible use of those rifles. Sure a hunter could take a bad shot with an inline but like you said, he could do the same with a sidelock or a shotgun and still send a round into a populated area. My .30-06 is accurate out to 500 yards, but you won't find me taking a hunting shot past 300. Just not the ethical thing to do, too many factors that could cause a bad shot. Banning a particular type of firearm because of what someone might do is just the kind of thing that the anti's thrive on. If I drove my truck through a crowd I could kill a bunch of people, if I drove my wifes honda through the same crowd I would most likely kill less... Should we outlaw the use of F150's?

mohican
November 16, 2006, 04:51 PM
I can remember back in the early 80's when a guy carrying a 54 TC hawken caplock during shotgun season was thought to be "taking advantage of a huge accuracy difference" between his Hawken and everyone else shooting pumpkin balls.......:D

the "traditionalist" are typically almost as bitter towards inline users as the stick and string crowd is to crossbow users.

or the disdain that "knife purist" hold Lynn Thompson in :rolleyes:

Irrational, imo

pardon the ignorance, *** is Toby Bridges?

I had someone show up to hunt with me at my farm once, and he complained about my knight - after which he received, do to rudeness to the host an un-invite

Lambo119
November 20, 2006, 06:13 PM
USMC Retired is on the mark! I am sick and tired of hearing this is not traditional enough, pure enough or to modern bla bla bla. :banghead: It is all about choice people and if we continue to bicker amongst ourselves our choices will ultimately be limited by others. I have seen it happen with hound hunting and baiting bears across the nation. The anti-hunters go in and get hunter groups to fight amongst themselves to the point where they have no lobbying power and abracadabra no more season. I see this debate exactly the same way. So what if I like traditional or inline out of respect for others right to choose I will not voice my opinion negatively for fear of fueling the anti movement. For the record I own and enjoy both. I think we all need to be a little more tolerant of our “brothers in arms” passions and remember we are all, like it or not, on the same team.

gezzer
November 21, 2006, 12:36 AM
When it's loaded from the muzzle it is a muzzleloader. Anyone believing that they are a long range rifle also believes in the tooth fairy! At best they equal the old 45/70 sure it's accurate at long range only if you know the ballistics of it's ARK>

Knight's problem to me was #1 price, and just how many freaking different actions can be made on an inline? Every new gun is just a warmed over in-line. Their wood stocks had so-so lines and finish, their composites are no different than any other plastic.

The only thing going for them was the Green Mountain barrels used by them. Knight merged with Green Mountain a few years ago and then both were sold to EBSCO and again put to different divisions. Green Mountain being the big money maker as they supply rifled barrels to most makers in the US including the big ones.

1911 guy
November 21, 2006, 06:43 AM
Muzzleloading performance is still muzzleloading performance. An inline with a sabot gets no more range than a sidelock with a sabot. Personally, I hunt with a .50 caliber percussion using a round ball. My favorite squirrel rifle is a .36 cal flintlock, also using a round ball. However, BP rifles that are percieved as being easier to use and clean are responsible for introducing a lot of people to shooting. I do think that muzzleloading season should be restricted to the Holy Black or one of it's illegitimate children such as 777 or pyrodex. Smokeless should be out for ML season, rifle style should be irrelevant.

bakert
November 21, 2006, 11:16 AM
Got to agree with 1911 guy. I personally use traditional caplocks but in some ways the inlines are a bit more idiot proof for a lot of so-so hunters and shooters. Also the idea of using smokless powder in a muzzle loader of any kind give me the willies. Problem is, far too many idiots will figure, "hell, if it'll work in one gun, it oughta git 'er done in another". Black powder or one of the substitutes, Pyrodex etc. for me.

KarbineKrazy
November 22, 2006, 06:13 PM
sorry, didn't mean to post here, but I will be getting a knight, I'm new to muzzle loading. I gotta start somewhere.

bub8889
November 24, 2006, 08:04 AM
I hunt with both, inline in the early season and flintlock in the late season so I don't care what you hunt with. My gripe is with the Idiots that don't know a thing about muzzleloader hunting that buy the inline starter packs shoot them once and head out hunting. I find that unethecial in bot being adequate with your weapon to make a clean kill, you only get 1 shot. Then once they shoot all the rounds that came with the starter kit they don't know what bulets/balls/sabots to buy for the gun. And my farorite is the guy pouring powder down the barrel with a lit cigar in the hand holding the barrel:fire: , at least the hand ws holding the barrel until the powder ignited.

stevelyn
November 24, 2006, 12:32 PM
I have long said that the arguement between inline vs. side hammer/traditional was a meaningless and without merit.

It is the same as the compound vs traditional vs crossbow red herring in the bowhunting community. A few "purists" looking down their noses folks wanting to try getting into bowhunting using another discipline with slightly different equipment.

It's nothing but division within and accomplishes nothing but weakening ourselves for the antis.

It's a tactic of goring everyone else's ox in hopes your's will be left alone by saying "See how we've handicapped ourselves more than those other guys".:fire: :barf:

Azrael256
November 24, 2006, 07:48 PM
I'm a bit of a traditionalist myself. The men who taught me to shoot BP guns and bows all have a disdain for anything "compound" or "inline" of any description. They're also historical reenactors, so there you go.

But seriously, I can't plant roses because the blasted deer will eat them, I can't drive on a FM road at night without having to dodge one, and more hunting licenses go begging every year.

You can argue that people with generally poor gun handling skills are taking up inlines and causing dangerous situations and I'll listen, but that's a safety issue. You could even come up with a bunch of charts and graphs to prove that nobody with an IQ over 60 would even contemplate using a percussion cap of any kind. Fine. This outright hatred of our brethren who shoot different guns is meaningless. There's plenty to go around, and all this does is create a divisiveness that we surely don't need. When the supply starts to run dry, so will the tags. Until that happens, take your meat with whatever gun you like, and don't worry about what the next guy is using unless he does something unsafe. Blaming the gun makes no sense, and we all know what kind of people do that.

BlkHawk73
November 24, 2006, 08:21 PM
When a company makes a good, popular product,the imatators take over and all they have to offer is a cheaper porduct.

What's worse is the the consumers are too cheap to spend $ on quality now a days too. There's a small % that will but overall most will settle for mediocre or lowball stuff. That's exactly why Walmart hs become what it has. too bad about another quality ML company going away. A&H was one of the classiest.

Aries-
November 24, 2006, 09:36 PM
the problem i have with inlines and other modern muzzle loaders. is that places that ban high powered rifles do so because of the sound and the velocity and the effective distance of those rifles. modern inlines are getting close to those speeds and distances. i have heard people say that with 150 grains of 777 they can get speeds with a sabbor of upwards of 2600fps. i think my dads old hawken is lucky to hit 1800fps.

in my area if they start banning muzzle loaders because of people shooting new inlines im going to be pissed off lol. i can see it happening to. as they have banned all shooting on sundays for the yuppies moving into the area because "its the country. if i want to hear shooting il stay in the city" crap. the people doing the hunting courses in my area figgure in the next 5-10 years here they will have everything but bow hunting banned which will be unfortunet since i live on 30 acers of nice forest.

:edit:
i plan on useing .209 primers and likely 777 in a traditional caplock (custom built by a friend of my dads http://www.clarkindustries.on.ca/gunw.html hope thats ok if not send me a message il change it) but for the reason of reliability, and getting the same shot each time. where i go hunting it is generaly foggy all the time cold and damp, this year i went it was nearly raining every day i went out. useing new magnum primers id go out for an hour come back to camp and the cap would snap, but the powder wouldent go off.. dud cap from the wet.

wanderinwalker
November 24, 2006, 10:48 PM
Admittedly, I haven't heard much about A&H and Knight going under at work. We talk about it a little, and every once in a while a customer will mention it, but it isn't talked about much.

I actually had a customer a while back who said the Knight rifle he bought was the worst BP rifle he ever bought. Knight allowed him to change models (after a couple of trips back to the factory) and the guy said he sold the substitute and bought a Thompson/Center.

As for ballistics; drive those stubby little pistol bullets as hard as you want; they're still stubby little bullets with poor BCs. Somewhere around 150-200 yards they really start to lose their punch, IMO.

And a muzzleloader IS a muzzleloader. Ask my coworker how long it took him to reload his T/C Encore with the buck in his sights. He'll say it was long enough he could have shot the deer 2-3 times with a single-shot, and likely more with a bolt or pump.

Edited: My go-to hunting rifle is currently a T/C Encore as well. 209x50, even though it's now modern firearms in New Hampshire. My biggest concern? Deciding whether or not to scope it to take advantage of the last few minutes of daylight in the woods.

____hoot____
November 27, 2006, 09:49 PM
OK here is my 2 cents. Let a little buck come in way to close to my brushpile blind in a thicket last week and shot him at last light just behind the head at 34 feet as he was about to hit my scent trail, while waiting for a bigger one to come out of the cattails behind him. The hand built custom lightweight seven pound 98 military action Husqvarna pencil barreled 06 with a Scopechief 6X is built and tuned for beanfield work as are the 165 grain boattail sierra loads, but they worked just fine at this range. My only regret was, that here was yet another one I would have liked to try a spear on and that is against the friggin LAW here in Michigan !!!!!:cuss:

1911 guy
November 28, 2006, 09:35 AM
I see guys do this all the time at the range. Every shot, the grass in front of them is smoking. The powder isn't even burning in the barrel. A muzzleloader is still a muzzleloader, no matter what the package looks like. Read Sam Fadala's work on black powder, he goes into this in great detail. There comes a point at which adding more powder will raise pressure, but yield no more velocity. That's exactly what happens when you put 150 grains of BP or any BP substitute in a rifle smaller than about 75 caliber.

ldasr
December 9, 2006, 05:26 PM
Seems to me you all should worry more about the anti gunners and less about the crap on BP guns. One more thing, I hunt to eat and if I can get it dun better with an inline so be it.:fire:

Aries-
December 10, 2006, 05:21 PM
depends on the rifle at times. my dad shoots 140grains of ffg in his .54 patch and ball flint lock. its impressive, the shockwave from the end of the barrel is visible as the leaves infront get swept away. on my hunting trip with him this year some frinds of his were laughing when it went off because of the shockwave. all the powder was burnt to which i thought was amazing.

but onto the subject of muzzle loaders. some of the newer ones i wouldent call a muzzle loader because they arent loaded in the muzzle. you load them like a artilery opening the breach with a special kep and putting the sabot shot in first then the blocks of pyrodex in after and then locking up the breech after. that i would call a "black powder rifle" if it could even shoot black powder in it without some problems with the breach.

as for worrying about the anti gunners this is true. all guns look the same to them. which isnt that great. im all for keeping the line between muzzle loaders and smokeless powder rifles as plain as can be seen and not fuzzy like its getting.

Ranger 40
December 11, 2006, 01:39 PM
This is a Hot topic for sure. Here in Wyoming we do not have a M/L season. We have a Deer, Elk, Moose. Sheep, Goat,Etc. season. You can hunt with any legal firearm .240 and up for CF, .40 and up for M/Ls or you an use a handgun.
In recent years I have used the Sharps or a new favorite a .54 Flinter custom M/L.
So, I guess I compete with every type of firearm known during a season. I have never had a problem hunting with prmitive weapons, when others used modern firearms. The problems comes with special seasons. The folks who shoot primitives have always had a set aside season. Now they feel this is being invaded by modern firearms. This is true no doubt. The folks who shoot the inlines feel a M/L is just a M/L . With this kind of a conflict there is no middle ground.
I think if there were never set aside seasons, there would not be these problems today. Anytime the laws try to regulate some ones activities, some one will find away around it. This always ends up with Government {1} citizens{0}.

Plink
December 11, 2006, 06:35 PM
I feel that there is middle ground, and that's not to descriminate by rifle aesthetics but by performance. Performance is less of a feature of the gun than of the "ammo". I think Pyrodex or black powder, and round ball or lead conical should be fine for muzzleloader season. They're both traditional projectiles anyway. Most inlines shoot conicals just fine. In fact they're amazingly accurate from most of them.

This lets anyone use any muzzleloader they want during muzzleloading season, but it does tend to restrict us all to traditional ballistic limits, which was the reason for special seasons in the first place. If someone wants to shoot long distances, then the pressure is on them to become a real marksman, just like in the old days, rather than relying on high tech gimmicks to buy them a little flatter trajectory.

I see inline guns such as the Savage as particularly versatile. Smokeless powder and high performance sabot during rifle season, Pyrodex and conical during muzzleloading season, etc. The ability to load up, or load down, depending on the distances involved and the game being hunted. It lets the shooter become very familiar with a single rifle too. Remember the saying "beware the man who only owns one gun and shoots it well" or something like that.

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