SHTF rifle for $1,000.00


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md7
November 9, 2006, 10:18 AM
The budget is $1,000.00. For this ammount, what type of set up would you get. Do you go for a nice AK and spend the rest on extra mags and ammo, or do you spend it all on an AR and collect spare mags and ammo afterwards? Or do you get something all together different? Ya'll tell me. If you had $1,000.00 to set yourself up a SHTF weapon, what all would that $1,000.00 get for you?

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Jack19
November 9, 2006, 10:35 AM
I went the AR route. But it's really up to you. You can spend $1K on an AK too...think Arsenal. You can get more mags and ammo by going the less expensive AK route; but either AR or AK will serve you well.

Even less expensive is an SKS. A rifle and LOTS of stripper clips and ammo can be had within your budget.

Or how about a Finnish M39? Very accurate and ammo is DIRT cheap right now.

Just depends on what type of SHTF you're planning for and how you see yourself functioning post-event.

BrainOnSigs
November 9, 2006, 10:49 AM
JLD PTR-91.

beerslurpy
November 9, 2006, 10:54 AM
If you get an AK, get some glass to go with it. Nothing super expensive, but set aside 2-300 bucks for a zero or low magnification optic. The AK has mediocre sights and something like a kobra, pk-as or aimpoint helps a lot.

Also, get some gear to actually hold your magazines. You can't really carry around an armful of magazines while you are holding a gun. I would personally advise getting a lot of 30 round magazines since vests and pouches that hold them are commonplace. There is some 40 round RPK gear out there, but such vests and pouches are very rare. It took me months of hassle dealing with a russian milsurp vendor to get an RPK gunner's vest to hold my 40 rounders.

AK ammo is also heavy. Even with load bearing gear, you notice you are carrying something. It also adds to the weight of the gun quite a bit. My gun is feather light when empty but feels pretty substantial when I have the 40 rounders in it.

Get a sling also.

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
November 9, 2006, 10:56 AM
For a grand, I'd get four SKS's and ammo.

Or 3 Saigas or AK's and ammo.

Or two Mini14's and Ammo.

mkh100
November 9, 2006, 11:16 AM
PTR 91 ..... $ 750
50 genuine HK mags..... $ 65
1000 rounds of ammo..... $175
sling to be able to shoot it right..... $10

being able to drill a guy with an assault rifle at 400 yards before he can drill you........priceless



If you like, substitute an M1 Garand for the PTR and en-block clips, still be under $1000

ec-10
November 9, 2006, 11:29 AM
For just over $1000 I was able to purchase a Bushmaster XM15-E2S A2, twelve magazines and a good deal of ammo. I prefer to shoot .308 but I have conceded that the AR carbine is probably the best choice for an all around SHTF rifle. The .223 round is plenty effective and the amount you can carry on your person is staggering. I do not recommend the AR platform cambered in .308 if it is configured with a short barrel. And don't forget, .308 surplus is getting to be pretty scarce.

Grayrider
November 9, 2006, 12:05 PM
One of our STG FALs, plenty of mags, any related gear you need. That should all come in under $1000. I prefer .308 as a SHTF gun as it is versatile. You can fight and hunt with it anywhere in North America. The FAL is AK simple in its internals. It runs in all weather and with the adjustable gas system you can make if function even if it does not want to. You can also still get spare parts easily. One could lay in almost a complete unassembled spare rifle to keep on hand just in case something breaks.

John

crunker
November 9, 2006, 02:46 PM
AR-47

Accuracy and adaptability of the AR-15, power and controllability of AK-47.

ACP
November 9, 2006, 03:13 PM
1. Flattop AR-15 w/A3 sights, standard A2 buttstock and a 16" chrome-lined barrel in 5.56mm (i.e. $850 for a Bushmaster or Rock River Arms, Colt is a little more)

2. 5 30-round G.I. magazines (i.e. LaBelle) (approx. $100)

3. 3-point sling (i.e. Eagle) ($50)

Later, add:

1. as much 55-gr. M193 ball ammo as you can find
2. 4x scope on 1" risers (to maintain proper cheek weld)
3. cleaning kit


You can carry plenty of 5.56 ammo; low recoil improves accuracy; iron sights are good to at least 100 yards; M193 will reliably tumble to 100 yards out of a 16" barrel; 4x scope allows for more precision at longer ranges.

I have found the AR platform to be better ergonomically than the AK platform. The rifle/cartridge combination is more accurate. Recoil is lower. There are more options for upgrades/aftermarket parts. Reliability of my Bushmaster XM-15 E2S Patrolman's Carbine has been ABSOLUTELY FLAWLESS for the past 4 years.

jthuang
November 9, 2006, 03:17 PM
AK-47 clone. Cheaper, plenty of mags and the 7.62x39mm ammo is roughly equal (ballistics-wise) to a .30-30 Winchester. If SHF and I have to hunt for my dinner, I don't want to be trying to take Pennsylvania deer with .223 Remington caliber rifle.

The AK can also run for longer without cleaning or lube than the AR.

The stock iron sights stink but you can fix that with an Ultimak gas tube mount and a ton of batteries for your EOTech or Aimpoint.

redneckrepairs
November 9, 2006, 03:20 PM
I currently have 3 sks's and a stg fal , still need to pick up a flat top 16" ar , or a 20 and mod the gas system to have the long handguards which i like . I kinda want one bad but $$ holds me back since i wont rid myself of anything " off paper " ( most of my traders ) right now lol .

db_tanker
November 9, 2006, 03:29 PM
check out Tromix. :)


still have plenty of x39 ammo around, more of the 7.62 than the 5.45, but either would do quite well in a SHTF situation.

My choice is an Imbel FAL on an Imbel parts kit.

everyone is diffrent...find you a gunshow and shoulder up some...see what is comfortable...see what feels "right" on your shoulder...


D

kfranz
November 9, 2006, 03:36 PM
$300 WASR, $300 ammo, $400 training

mkh100
November 9, 2006, 03:54 PM
kfranz "$400 training"

thats money well spent regardless of platform !

Try an Appleseed for $400 worth of training for $70 of actual cost.....they are Nationwide

www.rwva.org

kir_kenix
November 9, 2006, 03:56 PM
i think it really depends on what kind of shtf situation you are talking about. in a katrina situation i would go w/ an ar-15, m1 carbine, etc...something you can point and shoot. in a "red dawn" type of shtf scenerio, go w/ an sks or ak so you can pick up some ammo, easily repair your rifle, use it dirty, and put down the enemy w/ an adaquate round. in a mad-max post apocolyptic shtf situation, i would seriously consider a really accurate semi-auto rifle in (winchester, remington, etc) .308 or 30-06 (easily obtainable...ie bombed out wal-marts lol). since the katrina looting scenerio is far, far, far more likley then the other 2 i would go w/ a carbine of some sort. really, you should have no business shooting outside of 150 yards anyway, so pistol calibre carbines and small-bore centerfires are the way to go. ease of use, concealability, and abilty to carry some ammo AND precious family heirlooms, gear, etc. is the way to go. you can pick up any reasonable, non-bulpup rifle gear and plenty of ammo all for under your 1k budget. just go out and find what fits you.

1 old 0311
November 9, 2006, 04:05 PM
Camp Perry? AR. SHTF? AK.

Ben Shepherd
November 9, 2006, 04:09 PM
A tromix converted 223 siaga with a decent optic. Several mags, and a lot of ammo.

I used to keep an ar15 platform 223 for my SHTF rifle. Too nice of a gun. Way too worried about inclement weather or rough treatment. Not so with an AK.

phoglund
November 9, 2006, 04:21 PM
Grayrider

Looking on your web site I don't see any STGs for under $1,000 let alone adding "plenty of mags" and "any related gear you need". I'm not trying to be rude about it I'd just like to think it could be done. :)

Correia
November 9, 2006, 04:40 PM
First, take a look at your surroundings, and the type of community you live in. What possible issues might happen there?

Then decide what type of rifle you want.

Do you live in a place with lots of wide open spaces, where long range shots are a real possibility? Or do you live someplace where all your shooting will be at close range?

Is this rifle just for you? Or will other family members need to use it? What is their level of training?

Will you have to carry your ammo, or will you probably be staging out of a vehicle?

What will your friends and neighbors be armed with?

There are about fifty really good rifles to choose from, in several really good cartridges. Everyone needs to analyze their situation and then pick.

Personally, I own one of each, and plan on raiding my gunstore as needed. :)

Nickodemus
November 9, 2006, 04:41 PM
Forget AK and AR carbines, you want an almost every situation powerful performer, get yourself a real battle rifle. Might be pushing your budget, but not if you shop used. Something in Win .308: CETME/HK-91, AR-10, M14/M1A, FN FAL, ect...

Or I would buy 5 Yugo SKSs and some cases of ammo and cache it somewhere.

byf43
November 9, 2006, 04:49 PM
SHTF?????

Well. . . it looks like for .308 surplus tsHAShtf, unless you purchase LC at (currently) not-such-a-deal prices.

As for surplus, from what I'm hearing and reading, there won't be any more .308 surplus, because of import/export bans (that's what I read) and as for .223, well. . . the US military is needing all that they can get, and are buying from outside the US sources. (There goes the foreign surplus supply, for us civilians.) As for anymore 8mm surplus, I've read that when the supply that is in the US now is gone. . . it's gone.

With that said, IF I were in the market for a NEW SHTF rifle, I'd go for a lever gun in either .357 or .44 magnum.
Granted, you won't find surplus ammo for it, but, no matter where you go, you will find some sort of either ammo.

I've gone from thinking long range shots, to short/medium range shots, to surplus ammo availability, to no ammo supplies available, to what can I REASONABLY carry and/or expect to obtain.

For $1,000. . . . you could get a Marlin 1894 and LOTS of ammo. Literally. . . . LOTS of ammo.

That's my 2. Thanks for reading.

phoglund
November 9, 2006, 05:12 PM
I'm working on Correia's option. Get one of each!

For an inexpensive .308 option I'd suggest a Saiga. Inexpensive, semi-auto, .308, AK reliability, integral scope rail for multiple rugged optics options and soon to have hi-capacity mags available. What else do you need?

Brian Williams
November 9, 2006, 05:19 PM
For in the city, my 1894C marlin will do with what I need if the excrement impacts a rotary air impeller. I have walked out of my house with it in broad daylight and did not get any raised eyebrows.

ozwyn
November 9, 2006, 05:31 PM
I would say go for the cheapest reliable rifle possible (any action will do) and spend as much as possible on training, practice and planning.

then hunt mall ninjas for supplies as needed. (if needed, the more you are prepared the less likely you may need ammo simply by knowing how to avoid BG's after it hits the fan) Your best weapon is still your brain and training is the best improvement.

that's my silly .02

md7
November 9, 2006, 05:42 PM
Correia,

The area I live in is mostly rural. about five or six neighbors around, the closest being about 250 -300 yards. After Katrina, robberies were pretty bad in our area. A good bit of theft even out in the rural areas. We were without power for about 4 weeks, but some parts of our nearest town had power. We had to go into town for a few items, and gas when we could get some. Our town did not get too bad, but two nearby cities got kind of bad. Looting, fights at the gas stations, a few murders took place at gas stations, and other places in the surrounding counties.

This rifle would be primarily for the protection of me and my wife. i would probably be the only one to use it.

Friends and family live about 10 minutes away. they mostly have .40 sw, .38 specials, and a few bolt action hunting rifles. 30-06 and .270 wins.

I also have a .270 and .243 bolt action rifles, and a 12 ga. pump shotgun. So I have rifles that would be suitable for hunting. The SHTF rifle would need to be primarily a defense rifle. High capacity, reliable, something that I could put in the seat of my truck and go into town if I had to. Something to defend the homestead as well. If things got really bad, it would need to function in hot, wet environments for extended periods of time.

I hope that helps clarify.
Thanks for all the replies.

Cowboybootnut
November 9, 2006, 05:50 PM
AR-15, several 30 rd mags, 1000 rds ammo, belt/pouches to carry mags. Make sure the mags are reliable, and get use to the rifle.

Ben Shepherd
November 9, 2006, 05:53 PM
Md7, I really think a semi 308 would be good in your situation. You may need to reach out there on occassion. Ammo is slightly heavier than 223, but not a problem, unless you need ammo in enough volume to feed a belt fed for some reason. In which case you're screwed regardless.

A siaga in 308 or an entry level FAL that has proven reliability would fit your needs quite well I think. Under $1000.00 w/ammo and mags should be easy if you shop a little bit.

Also sounds like in your area 308 wouldn't be hard to *acquire* should the need arise.

Limeyfellow
November 9, 2006, 06:03 PM
I would probrobly go the fal route or some such. Sure the Ar15 is nice but unless you go up to a larger size upper, I perfer more stopping power out my way than a .223 for taking down larger animals for food and still have something more than suited for personal defense.

The Deer Hunter
November 9, 2006, 06:14 PM
Also consider other uses for your rifle. SHTF not all too often so it would be a waste to spend a grand on something utterly useless

Evil Monkey
November 9, 2006, 06:29 PM
NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO
NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO
NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO NATO!!!

IMO, all SHTF weaponry should use NATO standard ammo. There are simply too many guns chambered for and too much NATO ammo to leave alone. Plus, you can get more from those "uniformed beings" that are no longer a threat.

As for pistols, I don't know. I think you're good with any kind, 9mm, 40, 45, whatever. You won't be using pistols alot anyway.

Here's what I would choose.

AR180b $575
20 magazines, about $200
1,000 rds of ammo, about $160
some kind of scope, around $50

When you run out of 5.45mm or 7.62mmR, or etc., it's over. You have to find a NATO firearm. If you start with a NATO firearm, chances are you'll never get rid of it, thus, you don't have to start over learning how to use another weapon.

Correia
November 9, 2006, 06:47 PM
Now that's what I'm talking about. :)

At 250-300 yards, anything will work. Either 7.62x39, .223, or .308. (those are the primary semi-auto calibers out there).

At those ranges I wouldn't see the need for anything with an HBAR, as that would just be unneccesary weight.

At that point I would go to your local store and fondle everything there to see which rifles suit you the best.

At $1,000 for weapon, accessories, and magazines, that is going to rule out a lot of options. But that is fine, there are plenty of other guns that fit into that budget constraint. (my last AR cost $1,600 before I put an optic on it).

If you aren't concerned about capacity, I would take a hard look at a .223 Saiga. (for honesty's sake, let me state that I'm a gun dealer, and a distributor for RAAC, but I also sell many other brands of rifle, but if you were to come into my store with the above criteria, that is what I would probably put in your hands first)

$290 allows you to purchase several cases of ammo, some extra magazines, and still stay well below budget. .223/5.56 is the most common cartridge in America now I believe. Light weight, light recoil.

The main disadvantage is that it only takes 10 rounds magazines. This can be remedied pretty easy though. You can find the instructions on how to convert these guns to a real AK configuration and make them take 30 round magazines online.

If you decided you wanted to step up the oomph factor, I would take a hard look at the .308 version of the same gun. There are now 20 round magazines available for this gun. (because I built them :) )

Hey, phoglund, the first 360 magazines are shipping this week. We're finally done!

As much as I love 7.62x39, ammo supply for it has been real hit or miss lately. Whereas .308 and .223 are standard American cartridges. And worse case scenario, those are the cartridges that are going to be used by the military and law enforcement.

Correia
November 9, 2006, 06:51 PM
some kind of scope, around $50

Just a note on optics. You really get what you pay for. I promise you that a $50 optic will lose adjustment or break when you use it hard.

And the first thing you should do is buy two cases of ammo. Shoot the first one so that you and your rifle become good friends first and keep the other one under the bed. Then replace the first case and repeat.

Plus by putting 1,000 rounds through your gun right off the bat, you will be more skilled with it, confident, and you will know if it has any mechanical problems. (all guns have mechanical problems. If you your particular favorite hasn't malfunctioned yet, you haven't shot it enough)

SnakeEater
November 9, 2006, 06:54 PM
JLD PTR-91
That pretty much says it all.

Ian
November 9, 2006, 07:00 PM
If $1000 were my total budget, I think I might actually get a No4 Enfield.

Hear me out here, I think there's more merit here than you might expect. The Enfield gives you a significant improvement in shootability over cheaper semiautos like the AK or SKS - better sights and trigger, mainly (also a less threatening appearance, which may or may not be worth something).

The Enfield has a very fast bolt throw if you practice with it, and also a 10-round magazine. It's definitely faster to reload than an SKS, given equal training on each.

Ammo cost is much more than other calibers, since surplus .303 has dried up. But, the budget would include a single-stage reloading press. This would allow you to fine-tune your ammo, rather than being stuck with whatever was available at low cost. For instance, you could load up your "serious" ammo with high quality expanding bullet for far less than the cost of buying several boxes of premium ammo.

Finally, the Enfield is a more versatile rifle than most of the cheap semis. It's much better suited to hunting use or target shooting than the generic AKs and SKSs. Like someone said, no sense making your SHTF rifle just sit in the safe until the world does end. :)

So, my budget would look like this:

No4 Enfield: $150 at a gun show or via internet forum
Single-stage reloading press: $25 (possibly as cheap as free, if you look enough)
Other reloading tools (scale, funnel, dies): $75
Brass, powder, primers and bullets for 1000 rounds: $350

That leaves $400 for either local training, or a starting point to save up for a trip to a big-name shooting school.

cosine
November 9, 2006, 07:16 PM
Subscribed, just so I don't lose Ian's post. :)

EvisceratorSrB
November 9, 2006, 07:24 PM
Where did the faith in the shotgun go? For HD, shotty hands down. 18'' 870 Express w/ buckshot will do you very well. Perhaps if the SHTF at 100m+ everyone else's opinion I pretty much agree with.

High Planes Drifter
November 9, 2006, 07:37 PM
I live right outside New Orleans. I carried my M1A after Katrina. It stayed slung on my shoulder as I cleaned up debris around my house. I wanted any potential looters scanning the nieghborhoods to see that I was home, and I was armed. A bit out of the price range you have set. But a darned fine firearm to consider.

ArfinGreebly
November 9, 2006, 07:56 PM
Yeah, that's the rifle I want.

Weighs 2 pounds, no recoil, shoots every kind of ammo, hides in a pack, hunting legal, varmint taker, costing $150 and using stuff I can buy for $10/100 rounds.

What? They don't make one? Damn.

On the other hand, what if I could find a PAIR of rifles that could do that?

The 1894C I can get for under $400 (or under $500 if I want the fancy furniture). And Kel-tec does an unusual rifle that works well in a capacity as an emergency/survival weapon.

(Waits for laughter to subside)

A month ago I would not have thought of this. I was agonizing between the 1894C (that's .357 and .38 for those who confuse it with the 336 in 30-30) and something in an m4gery. Kind of liked the Dissipator.

I decided to try something new, and picked up the Kel-tec SU-16 (Alpha). I've spent the last couple of evenings running radom samples of good/bad/ugly ammo through it. It feeds and cycles stuff that my friend's new Armalite won't eat. Mechanically simpler than the AR, borrows the gas piston & op rod from the AK/FN series. Takes real AR mags of all capacities. Built-in rail for optics.

Weighs some 5 lbs. Folds up. Holds spare mags in stock. NATO chambered. Eats EVERYTHING in either .223 or 5.56 (well, nearly -- there is a hollow point it doesn't like).

Oh -- it costs about $500 (less if you shop; saw one at the show for $465).

I could seriously see sticking one in my pack while carrying the Marlin. Between the two, they eat ammo you will find just about anywhere. The Marlin looks tame, doesn't raise fur, but is a true big game rifle. Which I doubted until this week.

Dude showed up at one of my favorite hangouts with pictures of the hunt he and his son just finished in Utah. Son got an elk. Very proud. Dad was away from his rifle when the Bison herd showed up. Pulled S&W 686, placed a single shot of cheap .357 (generic gun show bag ammo) at 70 yards. Bison walked ten feet and fell over. The round went all the way through, taking out a rib. From a 4" revolver. Cool photo: grinning dad, 1000 lb steak-on-the-hoof, 4" stainless sidearm.

At that point I understood that Dan Wesson was right, the .357 really IS a viable game round. And fired from a carbine you get +300 or more fps, better accuracy, and more range.

Same rifle shooting .38+p would be fine for social work.

And the Kel-tec is there for those moments of intensity requiring an auto-loader.

I'm not suggesting that the SU-16 is a battle rifle with the duty cycle of such a weapon. But you can send thousands of rounds through it, and it doesn't break. (According to all test data I can find.)

So, there you are. Two popular ammo families, light weight, socially acceptable appearance, sidearm capatibility, social work, and dinner.

High Planes Drifter
November 9, 2006, 08:37 PM
quote:
At that point I understood that Dan Wesson was right, the .357 really IS a viable game round. And fired from a carbine you get +300 or more fps, better accuracy, and more range.
----------------------------
My FIL shot/killed an elk with his .357 lever gun years ago. A lever .357 would certainly fit in md7' rpice with lots left over for ammo. I dont doubt the effectiveness of a .357 out of a carbine as a seriously effective round;)

kfranz
November 9, 2006, 08:42 PM
The Enfield has a very fast bolt throw if you practice with it, and also a 10-round magazine. It's definitely faster to reload than an SKS, given equal training on each.

I'd like to see this performed in real life. The claim that you can load a 10 round magazine with 2 5 round strippers faster than 1 10 round makes me wanna see it in action.

Ian
November 9, 2006, 09:04 PM
I say it's faster primarily because of the higher quality of Enfield clips compared to SKS clips, in my experience. The rounds in my Enfield clips don't stick or wobble around, like rounds in SKS clips do (again, in my experience). I can load a clip into the Enfield in once fast, smooth motion, whereas loading an SKS clip takes some wiggling, and also requires moving the rifle farther from the shoulder than the Enfield.

To be fair, I haven't ever timed myself with on an SKS reload. I have taken my Enfield to rifle school, though, and pretty well held my own against my fellow students with ARs and AKs.

mkh100
November 9, 2006, 09:09 PM
I like the idea of the foldable kel-tech in my pack.....but with an MBR in my hands.

AndyC
November 9, 2006, 09:12 PM
Mine would be an FAL in Para-config - might go a wee bit more than $1,000, though.

Cosmoline
November 9, 2006, 09:35 PM
I'd get a PSL and a few thousand rounds of ammo. Accurate, tough rifle. Not exactly a battle rifle, and not exactly a fine tuned sniper rifle. But with elements of both.

flip180
November 10, 2006, 01:01 AM
I'm just thinking SKS for some reason. You mentioned putting it in your truck and going to town with it. I wouldn't worry too much about an SKS getting bumped around in a pick up. I'd either put a mojo peep sight or a set of these on it http://www.tech-sights.com. That'll give you a better set of sights to get better accuracy out of the 7.62x39 round to cover anything in that 300 yard range between you and your neighbors.

Flip.

eab
November 10, 2006, 09:32 AM
Couple notes from what I have been reading.....

You can no longer get JLD PTR-91s for under $900.00 right now. I have checked it out. Maybe last year this time, not now though.
Keltec, I really would not go there. If you a rifle for SHTF, you want something that has been military proven. The Keltec has , from what I have read, stopped working during several fighting rifle courses.

My 2 cents for what its worth....

I went with a CETME. ~$500.00 for the gun. Mags can be picked up for ~$1.50 Ammo is more pricy, kinda gets yah. I like it, low felt recoil, good round, proven weapon system. Pain to clean though. If I had to do it over again. I might go with the AK-47. Just cause ammo is cheap and that means you can shoot it more which means you are more profecient. If you really need more then 200 rounds or so you would be carrying on body. You are in a heap big a trouble friend and if you are not dead there should be some "extra" weapons and ammo lying around.

dfaugh
November 10, 2006, 10:24 AM
1 CETME + 3 SKSs + $200 worth of ammo.

CornCod
November 10, 2006, 10:34 AM
I would get one of the more expensive AK's. I hear that the Yugoslavian (I guess they are now technically Serbian) AK's are just splendid. They are in the 600-700 range. Wish I could afford one! (I "make do" with a Saiga) Then you can get Silver Bear Hollowpoints for hunting and Wolf FMJ for combat and you are in business.

david_the_greek
November 10, 2006, 12:39 PM
love my ar15. Picked up 20 teflon coated D&H mahs for $180 something. The rifle itself can be had at a reasonable price from companies like STAG. infact you could assemble a seperate lower and upper (or build) for even less. They are fun to shoot. Not intimidating to learn on. Very intimidating to look at. and heck, who doesn't want to be a mall ninja? money is the only thing holding me back. I find it superior just because the rifle is so customizable to your needs and you can change you configuration easily as you realise exactly what those needs are. There is tons of info and people skilled on the ar15 that getting help usually isn't a problem. granted you would kinda need to get help before SHTF. so If I were spending another $1000.... oh wait I probably will be..... I'd pick up a stag lower and upper (or any company, this is just an example). that will put you back around 675-725. if you get it with some magpul upgrades it will be like 800. pick yourself up some decent teflon (or dry lube, teflon looks prettier though:p ) coated magazines. and use the little money you have left on some plinking ammo. get some brass case wolf (partisan) or radway or guat. to start with just buy a few mags, spend the majority (like $150) on ammo to begin with so that you become familiar with the weapon. After that buy H&K magazines and decent NATO spec ammo. or some fancy stuff. those last two steps is were the cost goes up. As you get more money and more time goes on, stock up some cleaning/basic repair supplies and if your wife lets you:neener: get to a training course.
And thats my certified opinion..... certified my whom I don't know :(

ArfinGreebly
November 10, 2006, 03:17 PM
by eab
Keltec, I really would not go there. If you [want] a rifle for SHTF, you want something that has been military proven. The Keltec has, from what I have read, stopped working during several fighting rifle courses.

Reference please.

I was unable to locate anything illuminating this.

AndyC
November 10, 2006, 04:10 PM
Did a quick Google and found the following post here (http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2816):

I took my SU16B on two Practical Rifle courses over the course of 3 months (6 days worth of training, shooting total about 1200 rounds) and broke my firing pin my last day. It wasn't an immediate failure; the tip got rounded down so it was causing type 1 malfunctions more and more often until the gun just wouldn't fire anymore at all. I can't imagine a full-auto SU16 lasting too long without a strengthened firing pin... or special soft-primered ammunition.

md7
November 10, 2006, 04:26 PM
still haven't made a decision yet, but am leaning towards the marlin 1894 or 1894c. reasons being, the marlin is a rugged reliable rifle, accurate from 10 feet out to about 150 yards, .357 and .44 ammo are easy to get around my area and both are great defensive rounds, i hunt in alot of heavily wooded areas that a .44 would be ideally suited(not alot of open space in South Mississippi), and i could get this rifle and tons of ammo for under $1,000.00 It seems like it would be a really good utility rifle. hunting, defense. i would be pretty comfortable with it and my SIG on my hip. it doesn't hurt that any one in my family could use it either. if i go the marlin route, the .44 will probably get the nod. nobody in this area has the .357 in stock, and i have been able to find 1 new .44 for $420.00

ArfinGreebly
November 12, 2006, 02:02 AM
I followed the link and read the thread.

There were some entries farther down that had praise for the rifle.

One guy (stevil) mentions he'd put a lot of ammo through his:
I must be on at least 10,000 plus rounds without a problem(well a handful of FTF's FTE's).

Mine has arrived, and I've started testing it, so I'll know more as I go along.

hk lover
November 12, 2006, 02:21 AM
you had better do your homework as far as ammo is concered. this situation is going downhill fast . every time i check on 763 39 or 223 they always talk about limited quantities. you mayn consider a always availible hunting round because between the future santions that are sure to come in the future probably faster than we all think i would strongly suggest getting into reloading asap

Headless Thompson Gunner
December 9, 2006, 12:35 AM
The type of rifle doesn't matter too terribly much. How well you can use your rifle matters a great deal. Focus your attention on picking a rifle that works for you, that you can shoot well.

I like rifles with good sights and good triggers. It angers the com-bloc fans when I say this, but AKs and SKSs and Mosins are far more difficult to shoot well than they need to be. FALs and 91s are borderline. American service rifles (Garands, M14s, ARs) are about as user friendly as they come, as are No.4 and No.5 Enfields. A good lever action carbine with nice sights would be tough to beat.

I also like rifles that are handy and lightweight, especially if I expect to carry it in the field. A 12 pound FAL lays out some serious firepower, but it sure is a chore lugging that beast around.

Try 'em all. Buy whichever rifle proves to be the easiest for you to use. Then get good with it. Burn through ammo by the case, and get yourself to a good school if at all possible.

EDIT: Your notion on the Marlin .44 is a good one. Light, handy, easy to shoot well, simple, reliable, effective, moderately priced ammo.

geronimo13
December 9, 2006, 03:13 AM
I like my Kel-tec su 16ca, have put about 2500 rounds thru it without a firing pin break. However my money would go towards a Kel-tec sub 2k (9mm carbine-$300) and a 9mm pistol ($250), with rest going to ....wait for it... 9mm ammo and range fees. Plenty of good fella's there will help train you to shoot. The 9mm carbine has the same ballistics as a .357 pistol, shoots accurately enough and lethal enough to 150yards and would be easier to get proficient with. Or you could go .40s&w in the subbie and pistol but ammo would be higher. 9mm ammo scarce?, won't happen. You can carry a lot more and use in either weapon. Long range wouldn't be an issue in SHTF IMO. my .02 I reload also (being a cheap bastid) and as long as I can buy powder, primers, and bullets, (which store well BTW) I'll never run out. Prolly die before 1% of it gets spent. Wheel weights melted in dies for bullets for the 9mm, and all you need is primers, and powder.

chrisTx
December 9, 2006, 12:24 PM
if the S really HTF, i'd buy the nicest gun i'd want to be buried with.

dfaugh
December 9, 2006, 01:19 PM
For a grand, I'd get four SKS's and ammo.

Or maybe 3 SKSs, plus a good shotgun---and plenty of ammo.

In The Woods
December 9, 2006, 02:26 PM
sks all the way and lots of ammo! 762x39 cal. is the way to go. my 2 cents.:D ditch the bayonett.lol. Set yourself up for close range(handgun ,shotgun ,etc) and long range(rifle).Cover all angles if possible when shtf.

Frog48
December 9, 2006, 02:43 PM
For $1000? I just bought a new/unissued Yugo SKS for $139, so that means I could spent $861 on 7.62x39 ammo. :D

pinetree64
December 9, 2006, 02:45 PM
Just got home rom a gun show. Wanted a SHTF/Plinker rifle. Looked at the M70AB (AK). I couldn't do it... poor fit and finish. I sold my SAR1 for the same reason. My Yugo SKS will have to do as I try to justify spending $800 on a Stag AR.

springmom
December 9, 2006, 02:46 PM
I got an AR-15. Olympic Arms (not one of the star brands, but it sure shoots nice and accurate). About $600, then I'd find GOOD quality ammo and buy $400 worth. (Well, and mags too, of course)

Springmom

RockyMtnTactical
December 9, 2006, 03:01 PM
AR-15

You can always upgrade the AR more later on... plus, it's the best platform out there IMO.

de
December 9, 2006, 05:40 PM
Interesting question. What would my neighbors be armed with? A phone, dialing 911 most likely. Most people in this country are oblivious to their surrondings. Bass boats, NFL and NASCAR, are their main interests. I wouldn't even take that issue into consideration. Get what you like.
As a long time weapons instructer, and swat team leader (retired) I was once told by a new chief that I "WOULD" switch to a 9mm Smith. I ask why, and he stated that if I were involved in a firefight I could throw my fellow officers one of my spare magazines if they should run out of ammo. Having already been in two instances of me firing shots defending myself (one against one perp and once against two, I advised him that if my fellow officers had emptied 3 high capacity magazines and we were still in a fight, they obivously weren't hitting anything, and I intended to keep mine and see if I could end the fight myself. He did not respond but instead walked away, I kept my stripes, and the mandate was dropped. Unless enrolled in an organized group, arm and equip yourself, and don't plan on getting much help from others. They will more likely be trying to get you to help them.:scrutiny:

Bostonterrier97
December 9, 2006, 11:42 PM
Well it sort of depends on what your definition of SHTF is, the type of country you are in, etc.

But I am going to make some basic assumptions:
(a.) In any SHTF scenario your primary function would be surviving. Rambo wannabes would attract too much attention and would not last very long.

(b.) You would pretty much be on your own, you wouldn't have a large group of people and money and supplies dedicated to supporting you. Therefore you would want to go light, conserve ammunition, and mostly attempt to stay undetected.

(c.) The rifle that you would want would be short so you can have an easier time concealing it as you move about. Therefore you would want a Carbine of some type.

(d.) Most engagement ranges would be very close. The Caliber of your Carbine would have to have some efficiency. ie. it would have to be a decent man stopper so you would have to fire more than one shot.

Unless you are in Alaska, you would not need something that you would mostly hunt with, as there would be plenty of sources of food. Hence the Man Stopper Cartridge...

You might do well with an AR15 Carbine, or an AK or an M1 Carbine or a Ruger Deer Slayer.

Frog48
December 9, 2006, 11:58 PM
(b.) You would pretty much be on your own, you wouldn't have a large group of people and money and supplies dedicated to supporting you. Therefore you would want to go light, conserve ammunition, and mostly attempt to stay undetected.

I have to disagree with both of those points. When I envision a SHTF situation, its my family/close friends and I fending off looters/gangs from our house(s). So likely I'd be holed up in my house with adequate supplies. In a defensive posture, movement would be a non-issue, as I wouldnt be going out on patrol or anything like that.

1911JMB
December 10, 2006, 12:17 AM
I firmly believe that SHTF business is foolish, but I did buy a rifle that would be good for such a paranoid fantasy as an eff the democrats investment. I got a used DSA SA58 for a grand. You could get a used SA58 for a grand or a NIB STG 58 for about a grand. Mags are almost free, so it would fall pretty much within your budget.

Frog48
December 10, 2006, 12:22 AM
I firmly believe that SHTF business is foolish, but I did buy a rifle that would be good for such a paranoid fantasy as an eff the democrats investment.

I'll agree with that. There does seem to be alot of tin foil hat/ black helicopter types on this forum...

yahkohb
December 10, 2006, 12:59 AM
in a crisis, having a gun in the first place is likely to be a whole lot more important than the particular type of gun that you have. and being proficient with that gun is likely to be a whole lot more important than the particular pros and cons of that platform and caliber. so find something reliable that you are comfortable with, shoot well, and know (or can easily learn) how to work on. let those factors drive your decision.

having written that, I believe the AR-15 is a great choice: reliable, low recoiling but generally effective caliber, excellent ergonomics, high capacity, light weight, easy to shoot accurately enough out to a few hundred meters, and easy cleaning and maintenance at a basic level without any special tools.

dfaugh
December 10, 2006, 10:39 AM
I firmly believe that SHTF business is foolish

Well, yeah, I don't think that too many of us expect it to happen, at least anytime soon. But, in case it does,why not be prepared?. (Which is why I buy guns that might be useful for SHTF, but have other uses as well).

byf43
December 10, 2006, 11:53 AM
1911JMB
I firmly believe that SHTF business is foolish, but I did buy a rifle that would be good for such a paranoid fantasy as an eff the democrats investment.


Grant48 wrote:
I'll agree with that. There does seem to be alot of tin foil hat/ black helicopter types on this forum...

"Defecation hitting the rotary oscillator" comes in many different shapes and forms.
Anything from 'post Katrina' to outright invasion.
Power outtages. Pandemic. Several different types of the SHTF.

So, with that said, I have to disagree that "SHTF business" is foolish.

Oh, and I don't wear a tin-foil hat, but, I have seen the black helicopter. (A guy at a local municipal airport has one.) :)

Call me a Boy Scout. "Be Prepared."

Ian
December 10, 2006, 12:05 PM
Realistic SHTF scenarios are things like Hurricane Katrina and the LA riots. Having a good long gun is, IMO, simply part of responsible preparedness for such events.

zinj
December 10, 2006, 01:25 PM
http://baxter.redirectme.net:81/tmp/shtf_argentina.htm

Interesting stuff from a guy who is living through SHTF. Based on his observations I would invest my $1000 in some surplus II-A body armor, a high capacity pistol, and an SKS rifle, with whatever cash is remaining going to ammunition and magazines.

Interestingly he says not to discount pistol caliber carbines, which runs contrary to much of the theorizing that goes on here.

Speer
December 10, 2006, 02:23 PM
Good article. Scary stuff.

After TSHTF in 2001, only the most narrow minded, brain washed, butterfly IQ level idiots believed that the police would protect them from the crime wave that followed the collapse of our economy. A lot of people that could have been considered antigun before, ran to the gun shops, seeking advice on how to defend themselves and their families. They would buy a 38 revolver, a box of ammo, and leave it in the closet, probably believing that it would magically protect them from intruders.

Limeyfellow
December 10, 2006, 03:22 PM
Having a commonly available round only really works before a crisis appears since when civil order does break down in these siturations stores tend to get robbed of ammunation.

An Ar15 is nice but in this area there are better choices. It makes a great military rifle, though I like something with more stopping power, especially when you are seeing no food coming into the stores. I am far enough out that you see a number of larger animals (I have at least a dozen deer that regularly on my property) that could be culled. So I would go with something bigger. Infact I probrobly arm with an SKS as others have said due to their unbreakingness, lack of maintaince and then throw in a bolt action like the Lee Enfield for more power, hunting and so on. Then there is a couple of .357 magnum revolvers around.

More importantly would be a water filter if anything. We have a spring on the property, though its still handy to have something to clean the water. You going to run out of that long before ammo for most people. Make sure you have the clothes for the seasons too. Especially if you are out of power for weeks. I quickly learned here that every couple of years an icestorm will knock out the power and after two weeks without electricity in temperatures well below freezing I was ready for some warmth. I also found growing my own vegetables and storing them in jars and similar stuff also is a good thing to do if you have space for a garden on your property. A year's growing gives me and my family enough vegetables to last over two years from the garden so we sell quite a bit of fresh veg and give others to friends and family, but its easy enough to store it. Then don't forget useful equipment.

I find people concentrate too much on the firearms when their choice isn't by far the most important one. Most people could cope with a .22lr rifle and be amply protected as much as any other rifle to scare people off. Your best advantage would probrobly be number of people, so knowing your neighbours helps as much as anything.

zinj
December 10, 2006, 03:58 PM
I think you make a good point. Some people seem to have this vision that when the SHTF Slayer's "South of Heaven" kicks on, the sky turns black, and people throw on torn leather jackets, tight pants and jackboots to start executing human wave attacks against the few pure of heart.

I think the guy in the article I linked to makes a good point. Somebody (sane) isn't going to be sitting on the roof of their house with a high powered rifle repelling invaders. There are so many other things to do, like secure water supplies and repair any damage to your residence. You still need to eat, sleep, and use the toilet.

Water is something I almost never see discussed. What happens if a water main breaks? For those on wells, what about when the power is out for an extended time? Where will they get drinking water, do they have any purification gear?

Of course I cannot really blame the focus on firearms, after all this is a firearms forum. But all too often I see or read about someone's preparations and I just shake my head, as at best they will find themselves struggling, over burdened yet poorly equipped; there is the distinct possibility they are going to end up on the wrong side of the grass due to their choices.

1911JMB
December 10, 2006, 04:30 PM
"Defecation hitting the rotary oscillator" comes in many different shapes and forms.
Anything from 'post Katrina' to outright invasion.
Power outtages. Pandemic. Several different types of the SHTF.

So, with that said, I have to disagree that "SHTF business" is foolish.

Oh, and I don't wear a tin-foil hat, but, I have seen the black helicopter. (A guy at a local municipal airport has one.)

Call me a Boy Scout. "Be Prepared."
----------------------------------------------------------------

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying bad things can't happen. What I am saying is that a 1911 and 15 magazines would do the job nicely for post Katrina or riots, and I am also saying that the US isn't about to be invaded by foreign troops, it just ain't gonna happen. 70 million gun owners is nothing that any military force on the planet can overcome. Gas attacks or bombings, there is a fairly good chance, especially terrorist attacks from Al Quaida, but "outright invasion"? Give me a break.

When I speak out against SHTFr's, I am referring to tacticool 24 watching geeks who think they need to have a ton of worthless crap ready to go so they can emulate their hero's from TV in a fictional fantasy world that exists soley in their head.

LEVRLOVR
December 10, 2006, 04:33 PM
2 Remington 870 12 ga's=$500.00
Differing loads of buckshot, slugs, small game etc.
Use the remaining $350.00 to stock up on MRE's and water containers. 100 gallons of fuel for the auto's might not be a bad idea either.

Black Snowman
December 10, 2006, 05:27 PM
http://baxter.redirectme.net:81/tmp/shtf_argentina.htm

Wow, thanks for that Zinj, a real eye-openner. I need to start prioritizing some purchases. . .

easy
December 10, 2006, 06:09 PM
Very interesting read (Baxter). Loads of good info there.

telomerase
December 10, 2006, 06:45 PM
100 gallons of fuel for the auto's might not be a bad idea either.

If you put BHT in it (it's available in auto shops as "fuel stabilizer" for you weirdos who don't keep BHT around your workbench). Otherwise modern gasoline turns into varnish or something pretty fast.

That's actually a pretty good idea. The US government hasn't approved a new refinery for 40 years, so we're always pretty close to the edge. There aren't very many pipelines. A couple of sabotage bombs (or price controls, which have happened before in the US, and are always popular with politicians... that's how we're wrecking the Iraqi economy right now) and gas could be scarce.

doubleg
December 10, 2006, 06:47 PM
Well I would get a m-4 type rifle with dozens of spare mags and nightvision.:evil:

.38 Special
December 10, 2006, 09:15 PM
Can anyone point out a situation in American history where civilians needed and/or used semi-automatic rifles and large amounts of ammunition to protect themselves, their families, their neighbors, and/or their property?

I was around for the L.A. riots and was pretty happy to have guns. I also watched the store owners patrolling their rooftops with rifles, which I am/was all for. I am, however, unaware of any of those folks needing to fire large numbers of shots. Grandad's old thutty-thutty would have served just fine for the application.

Now, I don't have anything against folks who want to own "assault rifles" and lots of ammo, but come on, this obsession with "SHTF" probably looks pretty silly -- if not outright frightening -- to the average Joe on the street. Or 'net, as the case may be.

byf43
December 10, 2006, 11:10 PM
Post re-cap:
I wrote - - -"Defecation hitting the rotary oscillator" comes in many different shapes and forms.
Anything from 'post Katrina' to outright invasion.
Power outtages. Pandemic. Several different types of the SHTF.

So, with that said, I have to disagree that "SHTF business" is foolish.

Oh, and I don't wear a tin-foil hat, but, I have seen the black helicopter. (A guy at a local municipal airport has one.)

Call me a Boy Scout. "Be Prepared."


1911JMB replied: (Bold italics added for emphasis)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying bad things can't happen. What I am saying is that a 1911 and 15 magazines would do the job nicely for post Katrina or riots, and I am also saying that the US isn't about to be invaded by foreign troops, it just ain't gonna happen. 70 million gun owners is nothing that any military force on the planet can overcome. Gas attacks or bombings, there is a fairly good chance, especially terrorist attacks from Al Quaida, but "outright invasion"? Give me a break.

When I speak out against SHTFr's, I am referring to tacticool 24 watching geeks who think they need to have a ton of worthless crap ready to go so they can emulate their hero's from TV in a fictional fantasy world that exists soley in their head.



Outright invasion (In My Not So Humble Opinion) can take many different forms.
We are (again, IMNSHO) experiencing an invasion, as I write this. Just look to our border, to the south. That is only one way that our way of life IS changing.
It is not my intent or wish to get this thread locked, so suffice it to say, the term 'invasion' can be taken to mean any number of ways.
And yes, we can be invaded, quite easily.

Again, call me a Boy Scout. "Be Prepared." And that means not only with firearms, but, mentally and physically. Water, shelter, food and finacially.

Thanks for reading.

earplug
December 10, 2006, 11:23 PM
Has taken me about eight years to figure out that my Model 99 Savage in 300 Savage is a better urban rifle in SHTF (for me) then my custom built AR15.
Lighter, more power, easier to get real low in prone, better to shoot though stuff. I have a 147 FMJ hand load.
After the first 50 rounds fired, (aimed) its a crap shoot.

Nomad, 2nd
December 10, 2006, 11:41 PM
Well, my TSHTF is a M1A Scout... but that's over budget (Still I'd save up for it)

I finished putting together my car gun the other day...
AK with Romanian sidefolder, single point sling, Ultimak scout rail, and EoTech with the GG&G throw lever.

AK $350
Stock $33
Sling $22
Ultimak $92
EoTech just over $400
GG&G ~$80


-It just occured to me when I had it all together I had an ~$1,000 Ak in my hands:scrutiny:


I'd go M1A, FAL, or AK.

telomerase
December 10, 2006, 11:44 PM
Can anyone point out a situation in American history where civilians needed and/or used semi-automatic rifles and large amounts of ammunition to protect themselves, their families, their neighbors, and/or their property?

1. American Revolution
2. Shay's Rebellion
3. War of 1812
4. Tejas revolucion
5. War of Tariff Enforcement, 1860-1865
6. Senator Aldrich's War (http://www.strike-the-root.com/62/walker/walker1.html), 1913-2006
7. Pancho Villa's attack
8. Every inner-city riot in the 1960s, 70s, 90s

Now admittedly the semiautomatic rifle wasn't available in 1775, but they sure needed it. I might concede that it's getting a wee bit obsolescent in 2006... but that means you need to be thinking of the next step in weaponry, not resigning yourself to returning to medieval serfdom.

telomerase
December 10, 2006, 11:46 PM
Oh, and I guess a folding AK might have come in handy on four aircraft on 9-11... though a cutlass would probably have been just as good.

byf43
December 11, 2006, 12:02 AM
Can anyone point out a situation in American history where civilians needed and/or used semi-automatic rifles and large amounts of ammunition to protect themselves, their families, their neighbors, and/or their property?



Post Andrew.
Post Katrina.
Post Rita.
During and post L.A. Riots. It is also my recollection that several law-abiding citizens were armed with everything from .38 caliber revolvers, to semi-auto pistols, to pump shotguns, to (yes, semi-auto) Mini-14s.
I'm not saying that they FIRED these weapons, but, these citizens all thought that their freedoms and way of life were under attack. So, they needed these firearms.



That's my 'take' on it.

Thanks for reading.

Nomad, 2nd
December 11, 2006, 12:12 AM
Was it Athens Ga Or Tn just after WW2?

.38 Special
December 12, 2006, 12:51 AM
1. American Revolution
2. Shay's Rebellion
3. War of 1812
4. Tejas revolucion
5. War of Tariff Enforcement, 1860-1865
6. Senator Aldrich's War, 1913-2006
7. Pancho Villa's attack
8. Every inner-city riot in the 1960s, 70s, 90s
I had a feeling someone would bring up the American Revolution. :neener:

But obviously no semi-automatic rifles were used in 1-7. As for #8, I'm unaware of any incidents where high volume fire at distance occured. Linky?

.38 Special
December 12, 2006, 12:54 AM
Post Andrew.
Post Katrina.
Post Rita.
During and post L.A. Riots. It is also my recollection that several law-abiding citizens were armed with everything from .38 caliber revolvers, to semi-auto pistols, to pump shotguns, to (yes, semi-auto) Mini-14s.
I'm not saying that they FIRED these weapons, but, these citizens all thought that their freedoms and way of life were under attack. So, they needed these firearms.
Again, I have no argument with someone who wants a semi-auto for any reason. I'm just A) poking a bit of mild fun at the idea that the S is definitely going to HTF and if you don't own a whole lot of guns you're just a bleating, dimwitted sheeple, and B) arguing against the idea that the ideal SHTF gun is a semi-automatic rifle with several cases of ammunition.

In short, I'm saying that the perfect SHTF gun is pretty much whatever you've got laying about, and the evidence for this is pretty much every SHTF incident that has occurred in the last hundred years. Including, of course, Andrew, Katrina, Rita, both L.A. riots, etc, etc.

doubleg
December 12, 2006, 01:16 AM
Its just the feeling of having a weapon for dire cituations, you may not ever need it but if you do its waiting for you along with extra ammo. Also a 30/30 would work well but a m-4 type carbine will work alot better for what your using it for.

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