[OneShot]

First off, lets make this perfectly clear, I AM NOT BASHING GLOCKS in this thread. I am simply concerned, as my XD seems to be very similar in construction to a Glock.

I heard of a site called www.glocksucks.com I went there and was shocked at the pictures that I saw. Are these types of failures common? Do you have to worry about them with other types of pistols such as the XD?

I had never seen pics like that of a handgun, and it kind of made me really think about what could happen while shooting.

I apoligize if this is a re post. I did a search on it here and came up empty.--OneShot

[OneShot]

Here's a pic of what I'm describing

[HIPOWER]

I believe the Glock KB problem is a bit overdone. Any gun can KB if the ammo is out of spec or loaded to higher pressures. Just so happens that there are a lot of Glocks out there and so they have their proportional share of KB instances when poor quality ammo is used. Stick to good factory loaded ammo as per Glock's instructions and you should be just fine. There are many thousands of Glocks out there performing just fine. Mine never miss a beat.

[Coronach]

Yeah, there's a nice, even-handed discussion of the topic. :rolleyes:

Mike

[OneShot]

Whoa! a little Glock defensive there. Remember I'm just using Glocks as an example of what I am worried about.

Is this occurance common in most pistols of this type?

What other examples are there of this type of partially unsupported cases? In other words what other types of guns are set up like the above mentioned Glocks?

I'm new to these types of pistols and am just concerned--OneShot

[9x19]

OneSHot,

The FBI conducted their own series of tests on the Glock .40s including:

"One of the three guns was cleaned, lubed and loaded then put in a box containing half play sand and half road sand, and covered up. It was removed shaken out and fired until empty. The last abuse test had a bullet lodged in the barrel, one inch in front of the chamber. Then one round of service ammunition was fired with the obstruction in place. The pistol could not rupture or fragment the frame slide or barrel. As an added test five more rounds were fired after the first round cleared the barrel obstruction."

They do happen, seemingly more often with the .40 cartridge, but they have been reported in all makes of pistols.

[arinvolvo]

Also, oneshot, methinks that the XDs chamber design is fully supported, unlike the glocks that have KB! on that website.

Dont mess with reloads, use factory ammo....and dont worry so much...have fun shooting. You ponder this too much, you are going to end up with one nasty flinch when you pull the trigger...and that aint good for accuracy:D

[Shake]

I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. I place the GLOCK kb! issue in the same pile as the "SIGs rust within seconds of removing the shrink wrap", "1911s require $1000 worth of smithing to make them reliable", "H&K's firing pins break after 3,457 rounds", and "Berettas locking blocks break on round number 5,001"

I'm not saying it can't happen, because it does. It isn't the norm by a long shot, and if you take good care of your handgun and use good quality ammo, you will likely never have a problem.

Most auto pistols can kb!, but don't. If you look hard enough you can find examples of most autos that have kbed!. Again, the liklihood of it happening to you if you are careful is extremely small.

Shake

[gudel]

poor Glockers. for the price they're asking, i don't expect the gun to blow up on me.

don't you guys get free upgrade? :D

[mete]

You should understand why they go kboom. Using lead bullets and not cleaning often and thoroughly. Reloading cases too often, count the number of times cases are reloaded , inspect cases carefully including cutting open a case to see thinning. Not taking care to have proper LOA. The case must tightly grip the bullet to prevent setback . In the 40 if the bullet is .1 " furtther back than it should be the pressure will DOUBLE. If you add these three problems together , yes it will go kboom.

[Sarge]

"Is this occurance common in most pistols of this type?"

The answer is NO. The Glock, in .40 caliber and up, does this with greater frequency than any other pistol I know of- and it's not just limited to lead bullets, or reloads. I'm not basing this on internet "wisdom". I'm basing it on 10 years as a police firearms instructor, who stayed in touch with a lot of other instructors; and a 10 years in LE before that. I personally know of three, and have seen NCIC teletypes on dozens more- this was back during the early 90's when the .40's were becoming popular. Many of these were with jacketed factory ammo, which displayed no problem in other guns.

Glock needs to address this, and fix it. I personally think it is the 'unsupported chamber' issue, but I also am told of instances where the back of the slide jumps the guide-rails. Neither of these things is something I want to worry about on a carry gun.

In the Glocks defense, they often work well for thousands of rounds with no problems, and they certainly shoot well enough for the intended use. The odds of a major problem are just a little too high for me to buy one, at present.

When Springfield brought out the XD I contacted them on the issue of using lead, and whether their gun had a supported chamber. They say it does, and while they don't recommend lead or reloads, they'll tell you that it won't hurt their gun. I am waiting for the sub-compact .45 to come out, and then I'll probably try one. They are ugly as homemade sin, but all it has to do is work every time and shoot well to make me happy.

Well, that and not blow up. Take care-

[OneShot]

Thanks for some answers guys.

You would think that Glock would recall the models with this problem and correct it. I doubt I will be buying one soon.--OneShot

[Sean Smith]

Except that it isn't entirely a gun design issue. The .40 S&W cartridge itself has a smaller margin of safety compared to some others.

The .40 S&W is a 10mm derivative. But it isn't just a shorter 10mm case; it also has thinner case walls and "web" area on the brass. But the operating pressures aren't much lower than 10mm. This may seem wierd, but the main performance advantage of 10mm comes from the extra case capacity, which lets you pack lots of slow-burning powder to get higher velocities at (fairly) low peak pressures. 10mm peak pressures are only ~10% higher than .40 S&W... but the 10mm case is clearly alot more than 10% stronger than .40 S&W.

Case support is relative, not absolute. There is a trade-off between lots of case support and a tight chamber on one hand (which give you a bigger margin of safety against case failures), and feed reliability on the other. If you want a gun that will feed any cartridge, anywhere near spec, anytime, even if dirty, you have to give up some case support and make your chamber a bit looser. Basically, you have to make a compromise at some point, and Glocks lean towards absolute feed reliability, as opposed to absolute case support. If you like Glocks, but feel differently about that point, get an aftermarket barrel from somebody like KKM and "fix" the problem. But there is no free ride.

None of which really matters if you stick to quality ammo made to operate within normal pressure limits, or don't get stupid with your reloading. Almost all of the documented cases of .40 S&W guns blowing up (Glock or otherwise) have been a result of idiotic reloading, not mechanical defects in the gun.

None of which is to say that .40 S&W is a bad cartridge. Being stupid is always dangerous, and is just a bit more so with a cartridge that has less margin of safety designed into it than some others. Of course, the same could be said for .38 Super, and you don't read alot of hand-wringing about that anymore. ;)

Observation: One of the "scary" pics on Glocksucks.com is of an AFTERMARKET (not Glock) barrel that split like a bananna. :rolleyes:

[Full disclosure: I used to (but don't anymore) own .40 S&W Glocks. I'm not a particular fan, or hater, of Glock, or the .40 S&W cartridge, or Glocks chambered in the .40 S&W cartridge, or... well, you get the idea. ;) ]

[Coronach]

Also, lets look at the statistics involved. Glock has a massive portion of the LE market, particularly the .40S&W LE market. This is a market where guns are shot often, and under controlled conditions where kBs will be reported and recorded. This alone will result in a disproportionate percentage of reported Glock kBs.

I'm neither a glock supporter nor basher. I own precisely one Glock, and admit that it is a good gun, but certainly not my favorite. But I know a potential abuse of statistics when I see one.

Mike

[Mike Irwin]

I've witnessed (actually saw 3) KBs, and have seen the immediate aftermath of about 10 more from working on a range/in a gun shop.

All of these happened with EARLY .40 S&Ws chambered Glocks.

All but I believe 1 or 2 happened with RELOADED ammunition.

Early Glock .40s had more unsupported chamber, early brass runs were not as robust as they are now, and combined with the stress on the cases from the unsupported chamber and hot reloads, it's not surprising that the cases occasionally popped.

Since about 1994/95, however, Glock redid their barrels and the ammo companies redid their brass.

Since then KBs are, as best I can determine, pretty much unknown.

I'm not a big fan of Glocks.

Conversely, I'm not a big detractor of them, either.

I've never been very enamored of them simply because they tend not to fit my hand. That seems to have changed with the grip reshaping in the 3rd generation, to the point where I'm seriously considering getting a 10mm or .45 Glock.

[Handy]

Can someone post side by side pictures of the old Glock .40 chambers and the new .40 chambers Mike is talking about?



I'm really unsure, especially with this kind of thing, why .40 is so popular among sport shooters. Cops, I understand. Cost and target accuracy isn't as much an issue. But a private person looking for a nice shooting gun and paying for their ammo would have more luck with either 9, .45 or .38 Super for most every application.

[Mike Irwin]

"I'm really unsure, especially with this kind of thing, why .40 is so popular among sport shooters."

Why?

Because it was billed in the firearms press as the second coming of Christ or John Moses Browning, whichever one you worship.

I started with American Rifleman magazine not long after guns chambered in .40 started hitting the market in substantial numbers.

It was tough to keep them on the shelves.

The frenzy that was generated was much like that generated by the "Wonder9 Revolution" in the early 1980s.

Everyone and their uncle NEEDED a high-capacity, preferably double-action, 9mm semi-auto.

Companies couldn't bring out new models quickly enough.

Colt got caught flat footed and tried to remedy the situation with the abortion known as the AA2000.

Glock suddenly appeared on the market and in a matter of about a year had scored an impressive number of police contracts.

Then the FBI Fiasco in Miami happened.

The "failure" of the 9mm (that's how it was largely billed by association, a package failure of the round and the gun and not tactics) followed by the FBI research into a new round got the public REALLY keyed up and wondering if their new Wonder 9, for which they had paid a king's ransom, was worthless.

The gun rags started covering the FBI testing, interest in the 10mm started to grow again, and then S&W introduced the .40. By that time the public had been pretty thoroughly primed, and it didn't take too many articles on the advantages of the .40 over the 9 and 10mm/.45 to start a new feeding frenzy.

MORE POWER IN A 9MM-SIZED GUN!

ALMOST AS POWERFUL AS THE .45!

MORE POWER THAN 9MM, MORE ROUNDS THAN 45!

All of those were either headlines or tag lines on articles that ran in the pablum gun press at the time.

With that sort of hype, the .40 S&W couldn't fail, whereas a very similar round that came out some months before, the .41 Action Express, didn't get the press and simply couldn't suceed.

[Handy]

I'm familiar with the history, Mike.

I suppose I was just wondering aloud how 15 years hasn't exposed this hum drum cartridge as more of an expensive pain than a do-all solution to informed shooters. One could say that of any caliber, but .40 gets alot of (deserved) criticism, yet still sells very well to those who don't need that particular blend of capacity and power, especially to the detriment of other factors.

[Dobe]

Because, some people believe that if LEO's use the .40, it must be good, or else they wouldn't use it. And the FBI always leads the pack.

[Sean Smith]

Dunno.

One quasi-insight, though, is that .40 S&W is popular with IPSC-esque sport shooters for several reasons...

1. They generally handload it, so they can load it to 10mm-esque overall length and get the feed reliability (long oal = better for a 1911-derivative) and case capacity benefits of 10mm with much cheaper brass.

2. "Major" power factor ain't that major, thus they aren't pushing the envelope with load development in terms of pressure/power levels.

3. They are all using ramped-barrel guns with lots of case support and tight chambers, partly to compensate for the .40 S&W weak case, and partly just because match barrels tend to come that way out of the box. Thus, they by default negate the cartridge's main problem.

4. High pressures are a good thing if you are using ports and compensators.

Sorry for the off-topic rambling... back to your regularly scheduled Glock argument already in progress... :D

[Correia]

Sean has a point from the competitive point of view. You can stuff 18 or 20 .40 rounds into an SVI or STI. And 9mm wouldn't make major. Brass was super common, and much cheaper than 9x21 or 10mm.

However now IPSC changed major so that 9mm can make it. I have no idea how that will change anything as I don't really shoot IPSC much. :)

[Jim Watson]

IPSC/USPSA approved 9mm Major for Open only.
Limited guns still require .40 minimum caliber.

[9x19]

Mike,

I remember Wiley Clapps article on the S&W 4006 (also bought one of the advanced dealer samples when they first came out ~ horribly inaccurate back then). He all but declared the 9mm "silliness" at an end with the .40s introduction.

The round did prove popular but I doubt .40 sales have ever exceeded those of the 9mm in the same year. :D

[cratz2]

I own a Glock 23 and shoot it without fear. It just seemed like the right Glock to get at the time. I would like to get a G29 someday but this was for my wife to have as a 'no external safety house gun'... I bought the Glock and a SIG Pro. Sold the SIG.

And before you go saying I'm a Glock-defender, I am a die hard 1911 guy. I think the Hi Power and the CZ75 are good designs but not up to the 1911.

I have no doubt that ka booms happen, seems like mostly with 40S&W guns as well. But you've got to consider how many of them there are out there... to not do so is foolish. I mean, how many agencies issue or have issued the G22 or G23? Bunches. I am told that right now, Glock has 70,000 of the new G37s - intended only for the US - built, waiting to ship out. This is for a gun that isn't expected to be an overnight sensation. The G22 and G23 have been two of the best selling Glocks since the were released. That's a bunch of guns. So if there are 10 major failures a year, I guess that's pretty bad but it's a very small sampling of the entire set that is out there. Only gun I've seen have a problem was a 1911 in fact. Split the case, broke the front of the extractor, and charred the inside of the slide. It was repaired and cleaned up a but and still works fine, but it was a major failure. I'm not gonna run around screaming because it happened though.

Call me niave but I believe if you buy a current G23, and load it with commercial ammo from known good companies, you won't have a bit of trouble. Get a first year G23 and use your your buddy, Bubba's lead reloads and you might have an issue after a few thousand rounds.

[tiberius]

Dont mess with reloads, use factory ammo

I don't believe that the above is an acceptible attitude. If a particular weapon needs special attention in regards to handloaded ammunition, that's fine, but if it cannot be hand loaded for then it is junk. It seems that the truth is that you just need to pay particular attention the quality of your brass and keep the loads mild with this particular weapon. This shoyuld not present a problem.

There is absolutely no reason to create hot loads for .40 S&W anyway.....That's what 10mm is for. .40 S&W was specifically designed for those who found 10mm to be too robust, so its probably not a good idea to try and turn it back into 10mm:)

[blades67]

I've never seen a Glock self-destruct, but I've seen a couple of 1911's that have. That doesn't mean that Glocks are better than 1911's, or vice versa, just that poop can happen anywhere.:rolleyes:


Go shoot, have fun, repeat.:D

[OneShot]

Here is another discussion taking place at the 1911 .com forum involving three glock KB's in one day. It is mostly being blamed on the ammo.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48566

[OneShot]

This is what happened From: TCIC/NCIC TAC (HCSO)
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 11:49 PM
> To: (HCSO) All Sheriff's Department
> Subject: Gun Safety Advisory - GLOCK Model 22
> Importance: High
>
> ** Attention All GLOCK Model 22 carriers **
> The following message was broadcast tonight via NLETS. Please read for
> your safety.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FROM: HQC1, TO: APB DIRP 7732 HQCQ NLETS ROUTING: DATE/TIME: 05/19/03
> 18:08 ALL STATIONS APB SUMMARY 051903 1800HRS
> OFFICER SAFETY
> SHERIFF LARRY E KOPKO, WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, WARREN, PA
> ANNOUNCED ON FRIDAY, MAY 16TH, WHILE ON A TRAINING ASSIGNMENT AT THE
> RANGE, THREE WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES WERE SLIGHTLY INJURED WHEN
> THREE GLOCK MODEL 22 WEAPONS EXPLODED IN THEIR HANDS. ONE GLOCK WAS
> COMPLETELY BLOWN AART, AND THE OTHER TWO HAD MAJOR DAMAGE DONE AS WELL.
> AMMUNITION BEING USED AT THAT TIME WAS FEDERAL 155 GR HI-SHOK JHP LOT #2
> 42W262.
>
> B.R. Jones
> TCIC/NCIC Terminal Agency Coordinator
> Harris County Sheriff's Office


__________________

[Handy]

Nice.



I shoot 9mm and .45, and I'm right.

[Gerald McDonald]

I used to work with a guy whos 40 Glock KB'd. Had about 500 rounds thru it, no reloads or lead. Dont have any idea what caused it and Glock wasnt too forth coming with info about it. They replaced it no questions asked or answers given. I had two 9's a 17 and a 34 who had several thousand rounds thru each with no problems.

[JohnKSa]

I've not heard of any kB!s with the XD.

If you want an extra margin of safety with the Glocks follow these rules.

Don't use lead bullets. Especially don't shoot lead and then follow it with jacketed before cleaning THOROUGHLY.

Don't use 180 grain bullets in the 40 S&W. Especially don't use the 180 grain bullets with aluminum cased ammo or reloaded ammo.

The problem with the .40 is really bullet setback. The 180 grain bullet loadings in the 40 S&W are very susceptible to LARGE pressure increases from only small amounts of setback. The aluminum case ammo is more prone to setback since the aluminum doesn't hold the bullet as firmly. Reloading without taking care to maintain a proper OAL or a decent crimp can also cause unpleasant situations. Repeatedly chambering a round can also cause excessive setback.

[Sarge]

Spreading wild, unsubstantiated rumors......:rolleyes:

The believers will believe, and the non-believers won't- despite a mountain of case histories. "Not properly documented" or some such reason. Some of us have been reading those TTY's for over a decade, yet the 'powers that be' keep right on buying them.

Things have evidently changed- because in the days of the wheelgun, if three S&W, Colt or Ruger revolvers had blown up during training exercises STATEWIDE- they would have ditched them in a heartbeat. The troops would have pressed the issue until changes were made.

I can't explain it, and I've been dragging a badge around for a long time.

[Handy]

John,

How were the three cop guns in the above message blown up by setback, lead, reloaded, 180 gr. bullets?

[surfinUSA]

I like the 40. From what I've seen it works as good as the 9mm or 45. It fits in a 9mm sized gun, consequently is easier to conceal. I don't find it to be anymore or less accurate in a defensive hand gun than the 9mm or 45.

As far as Glocks go, I never worry about them. Carry my 27 whenever I go in the swamp or any other place particularly nasty. Doesn't jam, doesn't blowup, continues to work even after falling in the swamp, everything is cool.

The XD hasn't been on the market in similar numbers, especially in 40, to be a suitable comparison to Glock.

Blasers have worked just fine in my 27.

Many manufacturers void the warranty if reloads are used nothing unusual about Glock there.

Anybody particularly worried about the safety of their Glock 23 can e mail me. I take it off your hands, I won't give you a great price (I can get one new at LE prices) and you pay the shipping, Hey I figure I'm doing you a favor by easing your troubled mind and a 23 would go great with the 27.

[Mike Irwin]

"Things have evidently changed- because in the days of the wheelgun, if three S&W, Colt or Ruger revolvers had blown up during training exercises STATEWIDE- they would have ditched them in a heartbeat."


Oh?

Without investigating the root CAUSE of the problem in the first place?

Perhaps grossly overloaded ammunition, or ammunition that's been loaded with the wrong powder?

Been known to happen.

Matter of fact happened to the US Park Police in the 1990s. They got a deal on some 9mm ammo to be used for range qualification.

Only problem was that the first class that ran through the qualification using this ammo suffered numerous problems, up to and including at least two catastrophic gun failures.

Was this the fault of the firearm (they use the HK P7 series, by the way)?

Or was it the fault of the ammunition?

Immediately jumping to the conclusion that it's the firearm is just a tad premature.


Oh, the correct answer is, of course, that the ammunition was faulty.


The simple fact of the matter is that the quoted advisory message does prove what caused these weapons to fail. But, it does provide some possible clues.

The message speaks of the firearms being "blown apart" and suffering "major damage."

None of the Glock .40 KBs I've seen has resulted in the gun suffering major damage.

Typical scenario is that the case head would rupture around the unsupported part of the barrel. The magazine would be blown out, and normally the extractor would also be missing.

For a gun to suffer major damage, such as a split barrel or cracked slide, that's an indication that something much worse than a simple case failure was going on -- normally a severely overloaded round.

The critical thing is to understand WHY what happened happened, not just fixate on the end results.

If you don't investigate, and correct, the true cause of the problem, you're no farther ahead than you were in the first place.

[JohnKSa]

Handy,

Mike got it right. Federal initially had some quality/design problems with their 40 ammo.

[Handy]

John,

Read the message. The incident happened Monday.

[JohnKSa]

Where does it say when the ammunition was made?

I must have missed that part...

[Handy]

It doesn't, but what are the chances that department cops are practicing or qualifying with ammunition that is over a decade old?



Maybe back in 1990 they bought 8 million rounds at a good price, thinking that the department would never change calibers.

Maybe Federal recalled the bad stuff, stored it for a decade, then sold it again.

Maybe .40 is so close to the margin that ammo that is "slightly off" from a premium maker will tend to destroy a Glock.


Your guess is as good as mine, but this department has probably changed guns at least once since that questionable ammo was made, yet they have such old ammo still in stock?

[JohnKSa]

Or maybe someone like Kiesler's Police Supply bought a ton of ammo at a closeout sale, like they do all the time, and sold it to a Police department at a great price like they do all the time, and the department in question was one of the purchasers since police departments are always looking for a good deal on training equipment, and these guys went to the range to practice and were the first three guys to break open the newly purchased ammo.

Or maybe they've had another bad batch slip out...

This is SO cool! We're actually solving the mystery although it looks to the untrained eye like we're merely engaging in wild speculation! :D :D

Your turn! ;)

[Handy]

John,

I don't think this incident is positive evidense of anything. I just don't think it is prudent to write off what happened in 2003 because the same ammo maker made some crap in the '80s.

Personally, I don't own a modern gun that I have ever heard has blown up. I'm sure it has happened, reloading insures that, but the point still stands that it is a rather uncommon occurance.

On the other hand, one can go on the internet and download any number of pics of the same models, in the same caliber of a certain brand gun.

There are so many excellent pistols and calibers available, I don't see the need to roll the die on Glock and .40. Even if we can blame it on some old ammo, what is to stop a new batch of bad ammo from making it into your G22?

You can go to +P pressures in any 9mm in any brand of ammo and I challenge you to find this kind of stuff going on.

Something is up! Why do so many want to just write this stuff off?:confused:

[JohnKSa]

This is what happened From: TCIC/NCIC TAC (HCSO)
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 11:49 PM
> To: (HCSO) All Sheriff's Department
> Subject: Gun Safety Advisory - GLOCK Model 22
> Importance: High
>
> ** No Worries All GLOCK Model 22 carriers **
> The following message was broadcast tonight via NLETS.
> Please read for your joy and happiness.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FROM: HQC1, TO: APB DIRP 7732 HQCQ NLETS ROUTING: >DATE/TIME: 05/19/03
> 18:08 ALL STATIONS APB SUMMARY 051903 1800HRS
> OFFICER SAFETY
> SHERIFF LARRY E KOPKO, WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, >WARREN, PA
> ANNOUNCED ON FRIDAY, MAY 16TH, WHILE ON A TRAINING >ASSIGNMENT AT THE
> RANGE, THREE WARREN COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES WERE >BLISSFULLY HAPPY WHEN
> THREE GLOCK MODEL 22 WEAPONS FIRED NORMALLY. NONE OF >THE GLOCKS MALFUNCTIONED, AND THEY WERE FUN TO SHOOT >AND ACCURATE.
> AMMUNITION BEING USED AT THAT TIME WAS FEDERAL 155 GR >HI-SHOK JHP LOT #2 42W262.
>
> B.R. Jones
> TCIC/NCIC Terminal Agency Coordinator
> Harris County Sheriff's Office

There you go. All better now!

[9x19]

Y'all are soooo silly! :D

Aren't they just! :neener:

[Handy]

Well, I'm sure you feel better. Got a .40 Glock, doncha?


I'm sure this was just another (three) isolated incident[s].

[Sarge]

"If you don't investigate, and correct, the true cause of the problem, you're no farther ahead than you were in the first place."

Tell it to Glock. If there are issues with specific factory ammunition, then Glock needs to at least make an effort to identify for their customers what NOT to use. If the issues are with their guns, they need to acknowledge that, and then replace or repair the faulty component BEFORE the gun goes 'poof' in the user's hand. I guess as long as they're still selling guns, they're not too worried about it....

"None of the Glock .40 KBs I've seen has resulted in the gun suffering major damage. "

If we were just talking about a blown extractor, I might agree- but the frames are coming apart on a good number of these and I'd call that major damage, since it's not something that the end user or armorer can replace. I've also seen an officer with what amounted to an ugly 'black tapioca' tattoo on his wrist from a 10mm going 'poof'. Oh, it eventually scabbed over and healed up, but it wasn't what I'd call a 'confidence builder'.

I'll agree that nobody has disappeared, leaving only a smoking hole in the ground where they were standing. The even bigger issue for me is that the failures are taking the guns out of service when they occurs. This is no big deal on the range, but it would be big deal if I needed 'Officer Glock' to shoot me out of a sticky situation, and his or her gun shot craps.

The point I was trying to make was that when a gun fails repeatedly during range exercises, those entrusted with officer safety should be taking appropriate action to remove from service any article of equipment which cannot be counted upon to work- and in the worst-case scenario. This is to insure that the situation doesn't repeat itself on the street.

You keep right on believing whatever you want. It's your money and your hide, and if you wanna roll the dice on getting the right ammo in the right gun on the right day, that's your business. My solution to the problem is to eliminate it entirely, and carry something else.

[lazhuward]

I asked my friend, Frankenstein, about this issue. He said, “Gun go BOOM, me no buy .40 Glock.”

Keep in mind though that he’s just a reanimated corpse.

[mini14jac]

Reloads are the key.
I'm not relying on 3rd or 4th hand reports either.

Here is the story of a buddy of mine, who is a reserve deputy.
They got some of the first .40 cals for T&E. (they were LE, remember)
OK, so you've got a new caliber of Glock, and it comes with a few rules, right?
1. No reloads!
2. No lead bullets!

So what does my buddy do? Right. He heads home, and loads up some lead reloads . (I wish I was kidding. :( :banghead: )
At the range, he fires a few mags, no problem.
Then, there is a particularly loud bang.
If memory serves, the extractor hit his safety glasses, the mag blew out, and his hand was really stinging.

The problems:
1. With reloads, a double charge can happen. Jim thinks that may have been what he did.
2. Lead builds up in the barrel, because of the hex (or octagonal?) rifling.

The thing that cracks me up about 99% of the KBs?
You'll find this exact statement: "I had a few of my reloads....."

I owned several Glocks for years. .40 and 9mm.
I did not shoot lead bullets, or reloads.
I shot Georgia Arms factory reloads.
I did shoot the cheapest ammo I could find, including Wolf. :barf:
No problems at all.

If the AWB dies, (fingers crossed), I could see another Glock 19 in my future.
Follow the rules, and you'll enjoy the guns.
I do believe they are some of the most rugged guns made.
-And, I like the triggers.-

Edited to add:
When I had my G23 I was really worried about this. I did some extensive research on the web. What I found was, if you search enough, you will find evidence that every caliber, of every auto has KB'ed at some time or another.
I also found a lot of pictures of blown up revolvers, but that is another issue.
Bottom line: If you don't have confidence in your gun, don't carry it.
And remember, any gun, or any ammo can fail.

[stevelyn]

I remember back in the 80's when the Army was field testing Berettas and some had come apart at the seams. Then of course the rumors started flying about Beretta gets a gummint contract and they cut corners on the quality. It later turned out to be an ammo problem not a pistol problem. Although I'm not a fan of Beretta pistols, it does say a lot for the strength and quality of their guns. It took a lot of high pressure loads to make these things KaB.

[Handy]

Glock is "handling" the KaBoom thing in the same way they are handling the frame rail thing.

"It's REALLY unlikely, but if it does happen, we'll fix it without question." Yet, the frame rail failures seem to happen far more often than the failure rate Glock initially quoted.

Glock does not have a good history of being forthright about problems with its guns. They essentially field Beta tested the 21, and then issued a voluntary "upgrade" rather than recall for the ejection port issue.

My own personal Glock quandry came when I asked a tech just how much out of battery the Glock will fire. His response, "Zero, none at all, there is NO tolerance in that part of the fire system." Which is, of course, BS. All autos have a certain, at least small range that will allow the gun to fire within. Saying that the Glock has a zero tolerance "disconnector" is ludicrous and patently false.

9mm Glocks operate at the same pressure as .40 Glocks. Despite the wide range of 9mm ammo, including wildly overpressure +P+ subgun stuff that certainly makes it into some Glocks, kaBooms are NOT an issue with their 9mm pistols.

Now why should that be?

[usp_fan]

Glock did not handle my G22 kB! issue with out question. They did offer to sell me another pistol at factory cost. This amounted to $220 or so in 1997. I was a grad student at the time and this was our only home defense fun so I said ok and paid. I figured it was cheaper than buying a new pistol anywhere else at the time. I promptly sold the new pistol at a good profit and replaced it with the then new usp40 compact and have never looked back.

I would gladly own a glock again, but never in anything over 9mm.

Just my experience,

--usp_fan

[9x19]

Yet, the frame rail failures seem to happen far more often than the failure rate Glock initially quoted.

Handy,

Care to share the data that leads you to that conclusion?

[Mike Irwin]

"If there are issues with specific factory ammunition, then Glock needs to at least make an effort to identify for their customers what NOT to use."


Well, the ONLY way to do that would be to issue the following statement.

"In light that ammunition production errors can happen at any time, at any company, to ammunition being loaded on any production line, for any brand, type, bullet weight, etc., and not affect other types of ammunition of the same caliber being made at the same time in that plant, or by other manufacturers, and that these production errors can, in certain circumstances, cause damage to the gun and/or injury to the shooter, it is recommended that no firearm be fired at any time by anyone."


The problems with weak case heads were sorted out, to the best of my knowledge, around 1994 with a redesign of the case being made by one manufacturer.

That solved case-related failures.

What can NOT be solved 100%, though, is the possibility of transient production errors resulting in faulty ammunition.

A single loading machine can suffer a mechanical failure, it can be set wrong, components can be incorrectly combined, etc.

There's no way for Glock, or for SIG, Beretta, S&W, Colt, etc., to have any way of ferreting out those sorts of situations, and it's unrealistic for shooters to expect the firearms maker to police the products of the ammunition manufacturer.

If it were a pervasive, on-going problem with regular occurrences, that possibly would be a different situation.

But, be honest here folks.

Has the rate of reported KBs with Glock 40s gone up, or gone down?

I haven't seen a VERIFIED Glock KB in nearly 6 years.

Before that, I saw them REGULARLY.


The situation with the firearms has been, to the best of my knowledge, rectified, and as a result the number of verifiable Glock KBs has trailed off sharply.

It took a number of years for the Beretta slide failure fiasco to die down, but for some reason it's taking a LOT longer for this issue to die down.

You know, within a 25 mile radius of me there are, as best I can determine, several hundred police officers who carry Glock .40s as their regular side arms, or did until recently.

I've been making a few calls to people whom I know on these police forces, and I've YET to come across any reported KBs over the past 5 or so years with these police forces.

I think it's very telling, though, that people are reading the above message and IMMEDIATELY fixating on the determination that it simply MUST have been the Glock that was at fault. It simply can't be any other mechanism at work. It was the gun, ONLY the gun, NOTHING but the gun.

That's unbelievably short sighted.

[Handy]

Mike,

The Beretta slide thing died down because there has never been a civilian slide failure. All of them were military. AND, Beretta addressed the issue, in part, with the FS model.


There are lots of Glocks, quite a few in 9mm. There are also lots of other brand .40s. But we're not talking about Glock failures, or .40 failures. For some odd reason, its Glock .40 failures that keep coming up.

You say the guns have changed. I haven't seen any evidense of that at all.

[Sarge]

is that when the 10's and .40 became popular, cops in my area were buying any and every 10/.40 they could get their hands on, as they became available; Colts, Smiths, Rugers, Berettas, Firestars, A-75's- everything. As their range officers, we were immediately pressed into buying qualification ammo wherever we could find it- and it wasn't easy to find in those days. Funny thing, we didn't see NCIC TTY's on those guns cracking up, and this was when the brass was supposedly thin, etc. We were buying and shooting lotsa lead reloads from Ultramax and places like that, too.

The majority of .40's in those days were not necessarily Glocks, and the KaBoom factor was not widely known in that caliber until the Glock .40's came along. Maybe both the ammo and the guns are better these days- but the problem hasn't gone away.

It's the ammo? I kinda doubt it.

[9x19]

I seem to remember the Glock .40 being shown at the VERY SAME shot show where the .40 S&W made its debut.

In fact, I think their pistols made it to market at almost the same time as S&W's 4006 (one of which I bought when they first came out ~ an inaccurate little beast it was).

[JohnKSa]

Well, I'm sure you feel better. Got a .40 Glock, doncha?
That would be incorrect. I don't like the caliber and don't own/don't ever plan to own a 40 S&W pistol regardless of brand.

For the reasons I mentioned earlier and others.

[Sarge]

on them being introduced into the market at nearly the same time; but lots of coppers were S&W addicts in those days, and the Smiths were certainly in the majority in my area. The void filled in with the others I mentioned, and the Glocks were actually about the last ones they warmed up to. Guess they got over that!

And you are correct about the Smiths not being terribly accurate- or at least easy to shoot well. I had quite a time getting guys qualified with their DAO .40's, back when they were all the rage. I had 'em shooting for score to 25 yards, with a bonus stage at 50. The poor souls with DAO S&W's were notably disadvantaged at distance.

[Handy]

But did the term KaBoom exist before the .40 Glock?

[Sarge]

I didn't even get ON the Idiotnet until late 1999, and then mostly just to see if it was gonna crash on January 1st like they said it would. I have yet to decide which scenario would have been the "worst case" example.

My first exposure to the term 'KaBoom' was on "The Gun Zone" website, and I am told that it was coined by Dean Speir (sp) to describe the phenomenon. I don't know when it first came into common use. Before that time, we just called them "blow-ups", "frame failures" or whatever NCIC was calling them in the teletypes.

Speaking of those TTY's, I can't recall at this moment a single instance of a S&W Sigma cracking up. This is particularly ironic considering that some of the major parts will supposedly interchange. I'm not saying that there weren't any mind you- just that they either didn't occur in significant numbers (relevant to the number issued/carried) or they didn't get the press the Glocks did. If anyone is aware of them in significant numbers, I'd sure like to know.

Fact is, I always kinda liked the Sigma. It pointed WAY better for me, and I got along with the 'revolver-DA'-feeling trigger just fine.

But then I'm getting old, and set in my ways...

[Handy]

Mike,

I never answered one of your questions. This is the frame failure rate from Glock, off the GSSF website:

"Within the specific range the breakage rate has been less than 0.0188%. "

Since we know there are police units with multiple failures, as well as a fair number of civilian failures, does a rate of 1 in 50,000 of just the affected serial number pistols sound right to you? Would 1 in 50,000 even constitute a recall situation?

[Big Boomer]

Seems still relevant to me.