Cartridge Decision Help


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MrPillow
November 9, 2006, 11:30 PM
I've been looking into a new long range higher caliber rifle, and can't decide on what caliber to get. Bullet selection is a plus, as are all reloading components as all rounds will be handloads.

The rifle I've been looking at is the Remington 700 Sendero SFII, in calibers
.264Win, 7mm Rem, and 7mm Rem UltraMag.

Most shooting would be done in the 200-500yd range, some at 100 or so.
Any input on the cartridges, the rifle, anything? Just looking for some input, I don't have the money to buy rifles and then regret it :p .

Thanks a bunch,
Mr Pillow

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Dienekes
November 9, 2006, 11:57 PM
"The .30-06 is never a mistake"; Col. Townsend Whelen, at least 50 years ago.

Alternatively the .308 which will do everything the '06 will with the exception of firing the 220 grain bullet.

Both have killed trainloads of game, dominated rifle matches, and been used competitively at 1000 yards for decades. And gone to war.

Pretty fair resume, I would say.

Colt46
November 10, 2006, 12:41 AM
I'd steer clear of the Ultra Mags. Who knows how much longer they will be around and who currently makes ammo for it. You can rarely go wrong with the 7mm Remington Mag.

Loanshark
November 10, 2006, 12:52 AM
What are you going to be shooting at 200-500 yards? It will make a difference in the responses.

MrPillow
November 10, 2006, 04:26 PM
Paper. :)

BsChoy
November 10, 2006, 04:42 PM
Do you reload? 308 is not a bad choice and your barrel will last ALOT longer than the ultra mags. My LTR in 308 is probably sufficient out to 500-600 yrds with the right load. Recoil and muzzle blast are very tolerable and components and loaded ammo for that matter are every where. If you need a magnum, go with a 300 win or weatherby...190 grain match bullets will smack the target with all the authority the other rounds you speak of have.

Ben Shepherd
November 10, 2006, 04:48 PM
Regardless of exact caliber chosen, I suggest it be a 30 caliber of one variant or another. By far the widest selection of bullets.

MrPillow
November 10, 2006, 05:32 PM
The .264(6.5mm) has a very expansive selection as well, and it's what I'm leaning towards at the moment. Unless someone can give solid edvidence one of the other rounds would suit me better, I don't think I'll change my mind.

Jim Watson
November 10, 2006, 05:44 PM
When the gunzines were pushing it, objective reports said accurate barrel life on a .264 Win Mag shot at full power was about 800 shots. A target shooter is glad to get 1200 out of the smaller but no less hot 6.5x284. How's that for your selection?

How about a nice .260 Rem or 6.5 Swede that will last you a while?
(And that assumes dedicated handloading, there is not much choice in ammo in those calibres. .308 is still the best choice if you have to ask on the internet.)

BobMcG
November 10, 2006, 06:00 PM
In referring to the .308 and .30-06...

Both have killed trainloads of game, dominated rifle matches, and been used competitively at 1000 yards for decades. And gone to war.

Sounds like top notch references to most of us and simply the facts..

Regardless of exact caliber chosen, I suggest it be a 30 caliber of one variant or another. By far the widest selection of bullets.

More good advice, and another fact.

The .264(6.5mm) has a very expansive selection as well, and it's what I'm leaning towards at the moment. Unless someone can give solid edvidence one of the other rounds would suit me better, I don't think I'll change my mind.

I'm not trying to be a smart a** but it seems almost as though you already had your mind made up and were looking for some re-enforcement of your decision (which isn't a poor one) and got something else. You're asking for solid evidence to back up the track records of the success of .308 and .30-06 in long range target performance?:confused: My good man, where have you been?:eek: Do a little research and you'll find tons!;)

slzy
November 10, 2006, 06:01 PM
as usual,i would get a 30-06,308 arguments are compelling also.

Headless Thompson Gunner
November 10, 2006, 06:20 PM
6.5mm bullets have some important advantages their .308 counterparts, including better ballistic coefficients and lower recoil. 6.5 makes a lot of sense for long range precision shooting. Highpower shooters have been using various 6.5s in their match rifles for years.

Loaded ammo in 6.5mm is tough to find. Reloading components are widely available.

Accuracy at long range is rarely improved by stepping up to a magnum caliber. I'd go with a 6.5 Remington if I didn't care about the availability of loaded ammo, or a .308 if I did.

Shell Shucker
November 10, 2006, 08:13 PM
Of the three I'd go with the 264. Plenty of bullets to chose from. 264 bullets with the same or BETTER B.C. than 7mm are lighter, thus less recoil.

The 308 and 30-06 are great rounds....... If you like plain vanilla and are dependent on factory ammo. Personally, I like something that's a little different. My picks are 6.5 x 55, it's 260 Rem ballistic clone, and the 243. To get a 30 cal with a trajectory as flat as the 264 you'll need to step up to a 300 mag; OUCH!

MrPillow
November 10, 2006, 10:54 PM
No one seems to realize that none of the caliber you're suggesting are available in the rifle I want.

You're asking for solid evidence to back up the track records of the success of .308 and .30-06 in long range target performance?


No, I'm not.


Now if you can direct me to a rifle available in those chamberings, at the same cost, with equal or better performance, I could give it some thought. The Sendero does come in .300Win Mag, but thats a fair bit heavier of a cartridge than I am interested in or need.

Thanks a bunch,
Mr Pillow

Outlaws
November 10, 2006, 11:12 PM
Mr. Pillow,

I see the MSRP for these Sendero is about $1150. What is a more realistic number for what you would actually pay? The reason I ask is because there are a lot more rifles out there that would give equal or better accuracy right out of the box for that kind of price ($800-1000) and have a much larger caliber selection. :D

Not to say its a bad rifle or a bad brand, I love my old Remington. Just offering advise.

A lot of people like Savage or CZ for out of the box accuracy. That money you could save would be able to get spent on better glass. IMO for the distance you want to shoot, I would spend as much or more on the scope than the rifle. -If you don't already know that.

MrPillow
November 10, 2006, 11:18 PM
Our local store has one in .300WIN for I believe $899, I know its less than $950 but not quite sure.

After reading this thread, I started looking at a Cooper M22 Varminter in
6.5-.284

Would this be a good choice? It's a bit more expensive than I would have liked, but the 1/2" gurantee has me a bit excited.

Jim Watson
November 10, 2006, 11:34 PM
Cooper has a great reputation. Local guy has one that is good looking and accurate. Ref my previous post. A Long Range target shooter considers himself well off if a 6.5x284 barrel gives match accuracy for as many as 1200 shots. Does that matter to you? New match barrel $500+ fitted.
Common old working class .308 might go 4000 in the ten ring if not the X. (Although I saw a guy try to stretch one to 4700 last month and it wasn't a pretty sight. Wouldn't hold the target backer.)

My opinions based on F-class Long Range competition. The 6.5x284 is the choice of the US National Team because it is accurate and has less wind deflection than lesser rounds. But they pay for it with a new barrel every year.

MrPillow
November 10, 2006, 11:43 PM
I'd rather not put out for a new barrel every year, maybe every two years, but not every year. I would say I only shoot about 1000-1500 rounds a year, never more then 2000. What other calibers should I look at? I'd like to keep recoil low if possible.

Outlaws
November 11, 2006, 12:16 AM
I have a Cooper Varminter in .204 and wouldn't hesitate to buy one in a larger caliber. Worth every penny.

Just look at that wood.
http://www.battletone.com/guns/cooper3.jpg
http://www.battletone.com/guns/204.jpg

:neener:

MrPillow
November 11, 2006, 12:33 AM
Hmmmm. Speaking of the .204, do you think it has any validity as a target round out to 500yds or so? I'm not competing on any level, all my shooting is purely for the enjoyment. I already have one .204, but I sure could go for one as accurate as the Cooper.

Outlaws
November 11, 2006, 01:20 AM
I haven't had a chance to put paper at 500. I wouldn't mind shooting it that far though. The 22-250 would buck the wind a bit better though from what I understand, but the 204 has a better trajectory.

The furthest I have shot with a visible impact is 200 yards. I put 3 nice and neat dots at 200 on a fresh steel 1" wide x 5" tall strip at the range. I attached a drawing of the group I got. Mind you that I had no real point of aim other than the general center of the target. Thats why I am so proud of it. Best 100 yard group is about .252", but I blame that on user error because if I over lapped my 3 shot groups, most seem to land in the same little area and would form a nice ragged hole. Here is the .252" group. (http://www.battletone.com/guns/252.jpg)

For 300 yards I would take the .204 for paper punch over any of the larger rounds, but if you have much wind in your area, you might want the larger caliber since you want to do some 500 yard stuff. But then the bullet drop will be an issue with that, so its all a balancing act on what you hate more....bullet drop or wind. :D

Nematocyst
November 11, 2006, 02:02 AM
7mm08.

Hands down.

Flatter further than virtually anything else out there.
(Check it out on Remington's ballistics page.)

If I was looking for the flattest trajectory rnd,
it'd be 7mm08.

(As it is, I'm not concerned about that now,
so will go with .30/30 for my do-all rifle.)

Nem

Matt-man
November 11, 2006, 03:17 AM
I'd rather not put out for a new barrel every year, maybe every two years, but not every year. I would say I only shoot about 1000-1500 rounds a year, never more then 2000. What other calibers should I look at? I'd like to keep recoil low if possible.
.260 Rem. It's simply .308 Win necked down to 6.5mm. Low recoil, decent barrel life, and you get to use all those slick 6.5mm match bullets.

Speaking of the .204, do you think it has any validity as a target round out to 500yds or so?
Well, for targets out to 500, the BC of those little bullets is pretty low. The 40-grain V-max at 3700fps is going to get blown around by the wind more than your basic .308 168-grain load.

Jim Watson
November 11, 2006, 06:09 AM
I doubt a .204 is a 500 yd cartridge, or rather, bullet. But why not try the one you have before you buy?

Based on my researches (which led to my staying with common stuff like .308 and .223) I would recommend a 6.5x55. It would get the benefits of .264" bullets in a reasonable volume case for decent barrel life. You would probably have to have a target rifle built for it.
Cooper lists .260 Remington which will deliver about the same ballistics. They say you have to be kind of picky prepping the Remington brass, there being no Norma or Lapua, but that is about the only fault I have read of.

There is something to be said for a small 6mm like 6 PPC or 6 BR. Cooper lists them but you would have to be sure they would furnish a fast enough twist barrel for 107 grain LR bullets. Don't know about barrel life but it would sure be longer than .243 or 6.5x284.

Outlaws
November 11, 2006, 12:22 PM
Cooper doesn't list 6.5x55, but I recall a member here that has one. I think you just have to ask nicely. :)

terry264
November 11, 2006, 01:00 PM
Mr. Pillow, personally I would go with the .264 win. mag. (as my username implies). Have had one for almost 30 yrs. now. When comparing the really long range ballistics with anything else, with the right bullet pushed hard, nothing else compares with it. If you want the barrel to last for a long time, just load "starting loads" for the .264 and you = the .260 and 6.5x55, ha. But it would be nice to know if you really wanted to push that .264 really hard, you could. terry264.

Shell Shucker
November 11, 2006, 08:10 PM
I think to much has been made of the "barrel life" issue. Come on, a 264 is NOT a barrel burning 30-378. Todays steel is much better than the steel of old that gave the 264 the bad rep'. It sounds like the gun you plan to buy is basically a toy; for your enjoyment at the range. If you wanted a Ferarri for your "toy" (and could afford one) would you buy a Toyota simply because it will go more miles? Buy what you WANT!

rangerruck
November 11, 2006, 08:21 PM
is that 264 like a straight 264 , or do you mean like the 6.5 rem mag? because that one would be killer.

Glockfan.45
November 11, 2006, 08:33 PM
Hate to add yet another choice but why not consider the good old .270 ?

michael_aos
November 11, 2006, 08:47 PM
260 Remington.

Or 700P LTR in .308.

http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/700pltr.jpg

slzy
November 11, 2006, 09:29 PM
or a 280. i think if they had called this a 7mm-06 they would have been better off.

Jim Watson
November 11, 2006, 09:34 PM
.280 Remington is NOT a 7mm-06. It has .050" longer cartridge headspace so you cannot inadvertently load it in a .30-06 or a sloppy .270. It was briefly sold as the 7mm Express but the clientele could not tell the difference between 7mm Express and 7mm Magnum so they changed the name back.

slzy
November 11, 2006, 09:56 PM
well,how do you explain 7mm-08 then?would not the same caveats apply? certainly i can see some confusion here,but 7mm-08 and 308 are different lengths. and,i was thinking more of marketing.

BobMcG
November 11, 2006, 10:07 PM
The rifle I've been looking at is the Remington 700 Sendero SFII, in calibers .264Win, 7mm Rem, and 7mm Rem UltraMag.

Sorry, I didn't realize that the rifle you were looking at was at the exclusion of all others.

Unless someone can give solid edvidence one of the other rounds would suit me better, I don't think I'll change my mind.

I guess I misunderstood what the solid evidence part of that point was about? I thought you were responding to the remarks of others trying to steer you toward the .308 and .30-06 rounds.

Matt-man
November 11, 2006, 10:18 PM
I think to much has been made of the "barrel life" issue. Come on, a 264 is NOT a barrel burning 30-378. Todays steel is much better than the steel of old that gave the 264 the bad rep'.
It may not be a 30-378, but it sure seems close to a 6.5-284. See Jim Watson's note above about 1200-round barrel life out of the 6.5-284 - those numbers are almost certainly using today's finest stainless barrels - and MrPillow's statement that he would rather not be replacing barrels every year. At 1000-1500 rounds a year, that's what he'll be doing shooting 264 WM. Like with Ferraris, the question isn't whether you can afford the car - it's whether you can afford to maintain it.

Hate to add yet another choice but why not consider the good old .270 ?
The selection of match bullets in .277" is very limited. 6mm & 6.5mm are the hot calibers for long-range target rifles these days. I think Sierra alone makes 5 or 6 different Matchkings in .264", but only one in .277".

Shell Shucker
November 11, 2006, 11:11 PM
MM, Point well taken. My line of thinking was: If Mr. P has the time and money to carefully constuct 1200+ precision handloads per year and fire 1200+ carefully aimed shots........ He MIGHT get more grins per bang out of one of the "Ferarri" rounds he mentioned in his original post..... Maybe Mr. P needs to reevaluate his performance criteria (original post) if he values longevety over trajectory.

I said: "Buy what you WANT". My Daddy always said: "It doesn't cost more to go first class; you just can't stay as long".:)

vinpar092
November 12, 2006, 12:53 AM
I haven't checked if Savage offers a 6.5-.284 but that would be an option for easy barrel changes due to barrel life. Its a nice round and used alot in long range shooting. But, other rounds mentioned would do the job. I like the 7mm-08. Don't own one or have never shot one but, good ballistics, short action, and reloading capabilities--awesome.
vince

Late add, Personally I shoot .270 long range, no complaints with 150 grains.

Will Fennell
November 12, 2006, 07:09 AM
I love the .264 Win Mag......its a GREAT long range deer thumper. We have had one in our family's gun safe for years. My father will hardly shoot anything else.....except when it is at the gunsmith getting a new barrel:uhoh:

We have burned the throat out 3 times in the past 20 years. Twice we were able to just set back and re-chamber. Now we are on new barrels.

Great performance, at a price. You need to decide what your needs/wants are......

These days, we are shooting deer at much more reasonalbe ranges....my next Bambi slayer will be a 6.5 Swede.

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