[dragongoddess]

It was earlier in the week when I first heard the rumor that a shop in El Paso Texas was given 30 days to sale its stock and then shut its door after serving the City and County of El Paso Texas for 29 years.. I went by that shop yesterday to check out the rumor. When I walked in there were signs saying no layaways, 10% off on long guns and ammo by the case and 15% off of hand guns. This was the first time I had seen such signs in this store.

As I looked over the stock on hand and picked up some 12ga slugs I over heard them talking about going out of business. I didn't bother to go up and ask why because I thought that was a bit personal. Today though I learned at least 1 reason behind the shops closing. Seems their Repair log was not up to date.

I'm just wondering how many businesses could actually stay in business if their paperwork had to be 100% perfect or they got shut down.

Its a sad day as they carried everything a shoooter needed.

[frenchwrench]

I'm going to missuse a Quote from a T shirt I saw:

B.A.T.F.
We're not happy until you're not happy

The T shirt actually said:

Federal Aviation Administration
We're not happy until you're not happy

The FAA actually worrys more about the paperwork than if the aircraft is airworthy.To the point of stupidity. A missprint should not be as bad as a missed bolt.
Sorry to hear about your gun shop.

[History Prof]

Their REPAIR LOG? Oh yea, criminals are really mis-using gunsmith services to get guns on the streets of El Paso. Sad, sad day.

[Blackfork]

A guy who makes 80% lowers here, a "militia" nut there, a logbook over yonder....the BATFE is making war on gun owners...and the BATFE is WINNING.

They have figured out that we won't hang together so they are hanging us separately.

Of course, all of us tell ourselves..."that could NEVER happen to me....."

[Ohen Cepel]

I've seen it happen to 2 shops in MD and they have gone after several others very hard.

They really do appear to be trying to put people out of business. It's just wrong.

[Outlaws]

edited because I don't care anymore

[Moondoggie]

I own and operate an 18 wheeler under my own individual DOT Authority as an S-corp.

A DOT audit of my business could put me out of business with draconian fines if my paperwork wasn't in compliance with voluminous regs.

I'm subject to random stops on the road for inspections of all pertinent documents and logs. Violations can result in my vehicle being declared "Out of Service" until they are corrected. Moving a commercial vehicle that has been declared "out of service" is grounds for suspension of your CDL for one year. I just got pulled over 2 days ago for a Level III inspection by an Iowa State Trooper. No violations were found and I was on my merry way after 15 minutes. Results of the inspection are uploaded to the Federal DOT database and are added-in to my overall safety rating.

The BATFE is not the only fearsome federal agency.

[WayneConrad]

Before we start excusing the BATFE because the shop didn't follow the rules either in detail or in the large, keep things in context: It's an unconstitutional organization. It cannot possibly do right, whether it follows its own rules or not, because it has no right to exist at all.

Yes, I understand reality. But understanding reality doesn't require making excuses for it.

[Manedwolf]

I'm subject to random stops on the road for inspections of all pertinent documents and logs. Violations can result in my vehicle being declared "Out of Service" until they are corrected. Moving a commercial vehicle that has been declared "out of service" is grounds for suspension of your CDL for one year. I just got pulled over 2 days ago for a Level III inspection by an Iowa State Trooper. No violations were found and I was on my merry way after 15 minutes. Results of the inspection are uploaded to the Federal DOT database and are added-in to my overall safety rating.

All I can think is "Show papers! Schnell!"


It's an unconstitutional organization. It cannot possibly do right, whether it follows its own rules or not, because it has no right to exist at all.

It's the organizers of Prohibition laughing from the grave.

[Outlaws]

edited because I don't care anymore

[2ndamd]

This is tragic. Not as tragic as the day the BATF murdered and burned alive all those US citizens in Waco:cuss: . Not as tragic as the day Lon H. shot and killed a mother holding a baby at Ruby Ridge:fire: . But still a very tragic news story.

I think it is so funny that the Govt use to serve the people. Because the Govt use to be of the people for the people and by the people. Now the govt just abuses the people by stripping away their liberty bit by bit.

Now watch some apologist for the Govt will get on here and talk about how the Govt MUST have been right and the shop owner MUST have been wrong.......sad sad sad.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[gc70]

Yes, it is only paperwork, but gun shops are not the only targets (http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/launder/regions/2005/0128riggs.htm):

Riggs (Bank) pleaded guilty to one felony count of failing to file suspicious activity reports and agreed to a fine of $16 million. The fine, if approved by U.S. District Judge Ricardo M. Urbina on March 29, will bring to $41 million the total civil and criminal penalties paid by the 160-year-old bank to resolve anti-money-laundering deficiencies

Riggs Bank also went out of business.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

What other kind of business gets in trouble for having someone write "N" instead of "No"?

I have some experience with aviation, public accounting, and bookkeeping, and from what I've seen and heard, the BATFE is an order of magnitude more anal than anyone else.

[GhostCat]

Several Dealers in my area have gone out-of-business because of the BATFE.
All because of Misc. paperwork errors.......
Its just a matter of time folks......just a matter of time.
And what will we do about it?????.....not a darn thing from the looks of it.

GhostCat

[Barr]

What other kind of business gets in trouble for having someone write "N" instead of "No"?

Same thing for spelling out your state "TENNESSEE". The abbreviation TN for the United States Postal Service is good enough, they were the ones that came up with it.

Just another case of the federal government's right hand not knowing what the left it doing.

[redneck2]

I worked in a shop. BATF agent would walk in, point to a shotgun sitting in the corner and say "I want to see the paperwork on that gun". You'd better have it. Nothing was dropped off without paperwork. Thing is, a private owner could legally stand in our parking lot and trade or sell.

There's really no good excuse for not having the repair log up to date. We always gave somebody a claim ticket anyway. Just seems like good business.

[#shooter]

I’m just playing devils advocate here, it seems ironic to me that many THR members and the NRA often say “we don’t need anymore gun laws, just enforce the laws we already have” then when the BATF does enforce the laws we do have, many members start criticizing the BATF.

I don’t know what leads up to these gun stores closing? I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask for gun stores to keep track of inventory. It just makes good business sense (insurance, liquidation, capital investment) and it is the law. I am unsure what the BATF is doing wrong. Is it the fact the BATF is enforcing the law or that the law or punishment too strict?

If they are closing stores for one violation, that does seem excessive. If these stores are repeat offenders then they should be closed.

[dragongoddess]

My understanding is its the repair log. Not straw purchases. Not missing weapons. Not gunrunning. Its the repair log. It seems to me on something like this that either a fine or a ban on providing gunsmithing services for a period of time or seperation of the gunsmithing from the gun store would be the right thing to do. Not shut down the business.

[Manedwolf]

From looking at how the BATFE comes up with new regulations and then expects FFLs to follow every last line of tiny print, it looks rather like they're running around dumping oil on the ground in hopes someone will slip.

[yhtomit]

#shooter

I’m just playing devils advocate here, it seems ironic to me that many THR members and the NRA often say “we don’t need anymore gun laws, just enforce the laws we already have” then when the BATF does enforce the laws we do have, many members start criticizing the BATF.

I think there's a hole in this devil's advocacy :)

Yes, people often claim that current gun laws (were they magically, perfectly enforced) obviate the need for *new* gun laws (which are unlikely to be enforced any more or more effectively), because newly proposed gun laws seem generally to cover no usefully new ground. That seems reasonable.

No irony is required to simultaneously point out that many existing gun laws are not good, or Constitutional, or even particularly sane. Case in point: the bureaucratic vindictiveness several others have pointed out which makes truly minor bookkeeping variations worthy of BATF attention. (I refuse to call using a state abbreviation acceptable to the IRS and to the Post Office "an error" per se, even if it might have been *used* in error.)

It boils down to this: not only do we have "enough" gun laws on the books already, we have many too many of them.

timothy

[yhtomit]

I bought two of my guns at Kirk's Gunshop; one on tax day 2004, and one just before moving out of Texas for school. I was happy enough with my purchases there, so I hope it's not out of business.

(And despite naysayers, El Paso's a nice place to live. Too hot, but that goes without saying.)

timothy

[Thin Black Line]

A DOT audit of my business could put me out of business with draconian fines if my paperwork wasn't in compliance with voluminous regs.


This is true of any business, any person in this country now. There is always
and I mean always a violation of some sort that can be found.

Take healthcare for instance, in the state where I work private insurance
agencies will be taking over the medicaid program. These private agencies
have already reinterpreted how services are to be billed by individual
practitioners. For some professions this will actually be forcing them into a
collective group of service providers if they want to continue receiving
payment. BTW, the insurance companies had already done this themselves
to providers years before if they wanted to join their private networks. Over
the last couple decades there has been a major consolidation of health insurance
companies. A few years back, it was well-publicized how OB/GYNs were
getting harder and harder to find. This was a combination and state and so-
called private insurance HMO decisions that made it harder and harder for
them to remain in practice. When one considers the revolving door nature of
such big systems, you often see the same people going back and forth
between the state agency and the private agency that holds the most
influence over a given profession.

Case in point for FFLs: YOU WILL BE CONSOLIDATED. The small independent
store owners, like any other profession, will be collectivized. This means
you will likely go out of business and end up working as an employee for one
of the chain sporting goods stores. Draw your own conclusions about what
this means can happen in the future for RKBA.....

[Ohen Cepel]

Shooter,
It's not an issue of enforcing the law, that's not what they are doing.

They are coming in and going through the stacks of paperwork with a fine tooth comb looking for things like: not writing out Maryland (why does that matter?!?!?), that one of the 3 dates on the form is left blank or filed in wrong, that the entire address of one of the largest distrubutors in the nation is not completly written out each and every time (and it it's not each and every one is a "violation"!), and other BS paperwork issues.

They want to nit pick all the "violations" since whene the local media gets ahold of it it sounds as if the guy is a horrible threat to society with XXX # of "violations". The uninformed think that they are missing that number of firearms, they don't realize it's the evil crime of abbreviating a state:banghead:

I'm all for closing a guy who's selling guns out the back door, selling to illegal buyers, or violating the laws. They are bad for all of us. However, I'm not into destroying a decade old family business due to an anal audit:fire:

I loved it when my local dealer was getting reamed and the "agent" asked who Kimber was? If you are that ignorant of the business I think you need another job!!

[Marshall]

Today though I learned at least 1 reason behind the shops closing. Seems their Repair log was not up to date.

From the way this is written, it sounds as if there were other reasons as well. Someone says they heard a gun shop was closing, they went there and bought something, didn't ask why they were closing, then says they learned at least only one of the reasons why. I say we don't have enough info.

[LAK]

$2.7 trillion unaccounted for or missing from the Pentagon didn't shut anything down. I wonder what the total inventory of weapons of all types, parts etc are missing from the Pentagon. I could hazard a guess based on my own observations in the military along with those of others, and proffer a few theories as to what happened to some of them.

The BATF are the big stick being used by the Bush adminstration - and that before and that to follow - waging a war of attrition in precisely the same manner as that conducted against dealers in the U.K. starting in earnest in the 1970s.

In the U.K. this was paralleled by a similar campaign against Firearms Certificate (license) and Shotgun Certificate holders. Here at home we can look forward to the same thing in a modified form.

---------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[The Real Hawkeye]

Before we start excusing the BATFE because the shop didn't follow the rules either in detail or in the large, keep things in context: It's an unconstitutional organization. It cannot possibly do right, whether it follows its own rules or not, because it has no right to exist at all.

Yes, I understand reality. But understanding reality doesn't require making excuses for it.Well said.

[Thin Black Line]

So would someone who applies duracoat to other people's firearms and
receives money for it have to be licensed and keep a repair log?

[Harve Curry]

What baffles me is the enthusiasm of the LEO's and agents that make the system work against fellow citizens, veterans, businesses, taxpayers, and even people they grew up with. I'll never understand it .

[Telperion]

All the more reason to get Frist and his lame-duck Senate to pass HR5092! The bill makes it much harder for the ATF to shut down FFLs for feckless paperwork errors.

[SnWnMe]

I am sure that there is more to it than just a repair log.

[stlgunfan]

ATF

Aholes Taking away Firearms

[SnWnMe]

No no.

Big A-holes Taking away Firearms from Everyone.

[Seven High]

Has the NRA ever been involved with this situation? I would think that some small gun dealer would contact them and ask them to intervene. Was anything ever resolved?

[Sharps-shooter]

regarding enforcing the gun laws we do have-- are the rules that the ATF enforces, like this paperwork thing, actually laws? passed by congress? or are they "policies" enacted by non-elected officials? I know this is an issue with many other federal agencies.