.22LR: what's the best do-all brand/loading?


November 11, 2006, 12:09 AM
Imagine that for some reason - whether personal financial stress or the end of civilization as we know it - you could own only one specific .22LR ammunition for, say, the next 20 years.

That is, imagine that you are going to buy a few thousand rnds of .22LR ammo that must serve all your needs for 20 years.

You're not going to use said ammo for target practice - you're already proficient at punching paper bullseyes at 50-100 yds - but for acquiring meat in the form of small game (squirrel, rabbit, grounded birds... ).

Which .22LR ammo would you buy, and why?

Please be specific, especially if there are multiple loadings for the brand that you recommend.


PS: if your decision depends on which rifle you'd be shooting it in, it's a CZ 452.

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November 11, 2006, 12:34 AM

Remember each gun has its preference. That said

CCI Mini Mags.
Fed bulk 550 pack
Win X22LR

At one time, Win X22LR was THE .22 ammo I always suggested, Across the board, bar none, it ran in every gun I shot it through - period. Now it may not have been the most accurate, often times it was, it always again across the board, in all these platforms, hand guns or rifles, was "accurate"

CCI was not that easy to get here, when it was, or I brought it back - it too did as the X22LR. Just getting it was harder for me to obtain at one time.

Fed Bulk pack. This 550 round bulk, just worked. Honest we bought for plinking, never really thought about reliability or accuracy , we bought it to "run through and plink".

Then it dawned on us, we were not having problems with ammo in any of the guns, it was reliable, and accuracy , well, phooey, we had one Marlin 60 that shot like a high dollar target rifle , a $39 K mart Marlin 60, with this ammo, iron sights, just awed us. Then I snagged a Browning .22 auto [dang I like these things] it went nuts over this ammo. I am looking at a Box of high priced ammo,and thinking "huh, Bulk pack beat the high dollar stuff".

American Eagle by Federal was another , just we did not see it often.

This is what "we" hoarded up, for having for whatever ammo.

There is still PMC Zapper hoarded up, it was great, and a Marlin 39 liked this ammo the best of anything.

November 11, 2006, 01:07 AM
I'm starting to be leery of Federal American Eagle.

Several of the UT campus range guns, which run fine on everything else, have been light-striking badly on FAE. Admittedly, we run the suckers until a thick clay sludge of carbon jams them, but still.

Hunting: how does Fed Game-Shock work? I love Fed Champion for plinking, and Game-Shock seems the hunting equivalent.


November 11, 2006, 01:38 AM
Steve and Matthew, thanks for your opinions.

While googling CCI mini-mag, I found this THR thread from 2003 on "best .22LR load", started by Dr. Rob (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=9696), that is clearly relevant here.

Still, maybe things have changed since 2003. So we'll consider this thread as an update.


November 11, 2006, 01:46 AM
I was hoping you would chime here. :)

I have not hunted with the Gameking, so I cannot comment.

-For Nem's use, I am thinking of "hoarding up to have" to do anything, not so much accuracy , as much as running in whatever.

-The kids I assist with, well, some of what we shoot are OLD inventories of Fed Bulk packs , the American Eagle , X22LR and Mini Mags.... Honest for the kids, and I am not a fan of Remington .22 ammo, they sometimes want to buy a box at the bait shop or whatever, Thunderbolt is inexpensive and if a kids wants to buy a box - why not? We still get .22 shorts and just get whatever. I lucked out and bought a slew of Federal .22 shorts and "rat shot" with the crimped metal cases I prefer over CCI shot shells anyway.

-I'd just as soon shoot standard velocity ammo, Dynapoints were great! Cannot find the darn things. These did not always run in some semis, so I use them in bolt guns, and revolvers.

-When the kids get a new brick, they have shot and let the guns tell them what it shoots best. X22lr and CCI MiniMags are what they have boiled it down to. Sure I / we influenced them, but they have shot some ammo that did not work, and have figured out stuff that don't go bang or other problems,is not worth buying to save a little money.

I mean there is something about a "brick" with the little boxes, I understand this. Some have gotten a bulk pack, and I know , oh yeah I know since the kids saw the little pouches to hold ammo, they will have these. A Grandpa of one of the kids showed them his old one. Naturally it is cool, so, grandpa had to run down something like it and the kids are going to get one.

If you start a 'want' with the kids, you gotta see it through. *snicker* He knew darn well what he was starting. *wink*

I mean two kids decided splitting a box of CCI Mini Mags instead of each getting a box of Thunderbolts. They had problems with T-Bolts and - being kids, just wanted to buy a box of ammo at the store we were at and like I said, kids gotta right to be kids. Heck we adults got a bigger kick out of this than the kids I bet.

-Your Team I suppose is using Standard Velocity - correct?

See , I was concerned with Fed and CCI being under the same umbrella, something would goof up. Win ticked me off with the shotgun shell line, and no longer doing compression formed hulls, cheesy bases , out of spec, and other problems - afraid letting the line, including .22 ammo slide as well.

These 550 bulk packs, were bought some time ago. Darn things work, and the kids do not have a problem with them. They[bulk packs] run semi handguns and rifles.
Oh the kids re-fill some old CCI sleeves/ boxes. But they are cool with taking a scoop, putting a scoopful of shells in a shallow dish, and shooting from that.

Dang old Rem 514 shoots great with this OLD bulk pack stuff too.

November 11, 2006, 01:51 AM
The CCI Standard Velocity runs well in all the UTRPC guns.

We run some Aguila too, I just don't recall which specific offering, but it is exposed-lead round-nose.

We've run some Thunderbolt as well; really grimy but cheap and works.

Maybe we got a bad batch of Federal AmEagle; I used to run it in my own guns back in my college days in Seattle, and don't recall this many light strikes. We bought 4 cases back last month, and it's been the worst ammo that we've tried this year.


November 11, 2006, 01:58 AM
I'd call Fed on the lot numbers and tell them this is for a team use.

What guns you running?

CCI standard velocity is good stuff. I just do not understand why Standard Vel is "looked down on" and stores do not stock it because folks look down their nose and won't buy it. I understand inventory and turning the inventory .

Hard to find Standard anything, even Win T22.

Upsets me about The Fed Am Eagle, always been a sleeper, even in center fire ammo. I shot it in 9mm and 45ACP a lot. I hope your luck is just due to bad storage before you got it or something.

November 11, 2006, 02:02 AM
I'd call Fed on the lot numbers and tell them this is for a team use.

What guns you running?

We're mainly running it for training and plinking; I think the UT team dips into our Eley stash.

I might indeed call Federal about it; they're filling up our Dud buckets.

We're running Ruger MkIIs and S&W 22a mainly. It may be that we're having some firing pin issues with one or two of the guns, that may be causing a string of light-strikes.

I don't mean at all to defame FedAmEagle; try at least a box with your own gun. It's just that we've had some trouble on at least a few guns since we opened the cases of AmEagle. Could be coincidence, could be enemy action...


November 11, 2006, 02:12 AM
I don't mean at all to defame FedAmEagle; try at least a box with your own gun.AE is all I've used in this CZ so far. It likes them. Good accuracy (at least at 50 yds, which is all I care about), and not one misfire.

But I'm running low on the current brick, and would like to buy a few bricks for the next period of time. And one never knows when "bricks" may get scarce (due to personal financial stress, Dem control of the Gov, or the collapse of civilization), so I'm looking for the best bricks.

(Note: money is not the issue; I want the best rnds for small game.)

Right now, I'm leaning towards trying out a few bricks of CCI mini-mag.

So, CCI is made by Speer (http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-win/order/prodlist.exe/PSZ/?Template=ProdDetail.htm&ProductID=16869), or vice versa?

November 11, 2006, 08:42 AM
If I could only have one it would be the Winchester Power Point 40gr HP.
This is a full power load that Winchester says gets 1280fps out of a rifle, and always seemed very accurate to me, sometimes it seems a little hard to find, though.

You said one, but I also shoot alot of sub-sonic ammo, PMC Moderator and just recently the Aguila, both hollow point and very quiet out of a long barreled CZ 452.Patrick

November 11, 2006, 10:54 AM
as a brand i would go Aguila, they make the most variants over any other brand. then out of them, I would go with their sniper subs at 60 grains, they are very accurate, and at 60 grians, can really put a hurt on. here are some of my aggie results with a super accurate marlin mod 60 , at 100 YARDS.
GOLDEN EAGLE is the american made name of the Aguilas. One prob though, you def need to buy just a box, first to see if they will work in your rifle. The eintire bullet with case is as long as a regular lr bullet/case. But really it uses a stuffed full short case, with this ultra huge long bullet, so you need to see if you are going to get the right feed angle out of them for your rifle.

November 11, 2006, 11:23 AM
Winchester DynaPoints used to shoot very well. I think my choice now might be somewhat varied due to individual gun loads preferences. But for overall design I would have to say say Remington Vipers; HV 36 grain copper coated truncated cone solids. I wish they were available standard velocity as well.



fal 4 me
November 11, 2006, 01:49 PM
I've had very good luck with CCI Velocitors in my CZ 452 Trainer. With the scope it is simply bullseye after bullseye. Before settling on the Velocitors I tried 12 or 13 different loads from different companies. While Wolf Extra Match is more accurate than the Velocitors, the Velocitors are better for hunting.

Personally I can't stand any Remington .22lr ammuntion. Even the Remington Eley can't match the Velocitors or Wolf Extra Match in my rifle. Of course this could be different in any given gun, so my advice is to stop asking for advice on the Internet, buy a dozen or so different 50 round boxes of ammo, and go shooting. Naturally it will take a few range sessions to figure our the absolute best for your rifle, but in the end you'll be better off than reading a million posts about the best .22 lr ammo.

Vern Humphrey
November 11, 2006, 02:18 PM
I've always had good luck with Winchester Wildcats, and still have a couple of cases tucked away in the basement.

Winchester Expert bulk pack hollowpoints shoot well in my rifles, but don't function all that well in automatic pistols (the wide hollowpoint tends to hang up on the feed ramp.) Remington bulk pack hollowpoints feed flawlessly in my pistols -- and my Colt Woodsman loves them -- but they do have the occasional misfire.

November 11, 2006, 03:00 PM
I don't see a lot of difference between different 22rf loadings but the only way to find out what works best for you is to start trying different brands.

November 11, 2006, 03:03 PM
1. CCI-Mini Mag, solid or hp

2. Wincherster Wildcat (I haven't seen much of this in the past few years, but I haven't been paticullarly looking.)

They always seemed to work for me. At one time, lots of years ago, we'd get select lots of Federal. The Federal, at least for me in a High Standard, MK1, or M41 had more squibs. All shots count, and you can't get an 'alibi' string for a 6 o'clock 7.

The Club I belonged to then started ordering CCI 22RF ammunition and CCI primers in bulk.

That was 20 or so years ago. I 'spect things have changed a bunch since then. Although I can't shoot well enough to notice a difference these days, the Mini-Mag is still what I buy whenever there is a choice.


November 11, 2006, 04:39 PM
I've always used federal, remington and winchester. They're all about equal in most respects IMO, but i've never had a FTF with a winchester wildcat, while i've had a few with federal, and quite a few with remington over the years.
If i could only buy ONE, i'd go for the winchester. However, i never like to have all my eggs in just one basket, so i make a habit of having at least a few boxes or a brick from each brand in storage, same as i do with my centerfire stuff, just in case a brick or a box of one brand happens to be from a 'bad lot'.

November 11, 2006, 05:10 PM
Absolutely it would be CCI mini-mini mag HP's. been using them for years. never had a failure to fire, clean burning power, packed neatly in platic boxes the protect them. i currently shoot them out of 4 of my guns, both rifle and handguns. next weekend we are having a big gun show in town and im going with a Uhaul truck so i can stock up with ammo before the price rises anymore or is taxed out of $$$ range.

November 11, 2006, 05:32 PM
Before I left on the deployment most of 22 shooting was out of my S&W K-22 revolver. I was mostly running mid grade PMC stuff. Friends running Fed bulk packs in 10/22s, Marlin 60s, etc. were having problems with it. Folks at the local gun shop were selling these little 22 carbines, had a few come back that weren't running, they tell me all of them were having FTF with Fed ammo customers bought elsewhere. They'd test fire them with their own CCI and Winchester ammo, problems would clear up. Over and over I'd hear of problems with the Fed 22 LR. I don't think MV has a bad batch. I really think Fed is having problems with too hard of brass, the primed rim, or both. :( It's been a while since I've shot Rem TBolt, but MV's recent experiences mirror my past experiences that TBolt runs, but it shoots dirty. If I were stocking up on 22LR right now I think I'd be going with a mix of CCI standard velocity and CCI Subsonics. The CCI has been the cleanest running and most reliable 22 LR ammo I've fired. I'm sure Eley and the others are nice, but I never got into the match grade stuff :rolleyes:

November 11, 2006, 05:54 PM
No one has mentioned it, but the plastic slide top conatiner is useful for other stuff as well.

During a match, you could be absolutely sure that you put five, and only five, rounds on the bench.

The mty plastic slide top container is useful for gunbox, range bag, spare parts, punches, extractor, bushing wrench, pins, and stuff.

In the not too distant past, it held spare buttons, needle and thread in a travel kit for a couple of GIs that I am quite fond of.

Its kinda like flour sacks that had other uses after they were mty.


November 11, 2006, 05:58 PM
If I could only have one, it would be Solid CCI Mini-Mags.

Back in the late 70's or early 80's my dad and uncle bought and split a pallet (all the store had...)of Mini-Mags at a K-Mart that was going out of business. I seem to recall that they paid something like a dime per box of 100 or something crazy like that. They were at the right place at the right time.

I think I have 3 boxes from that buy left. They have been accurate and powerful.

I prefer subsonic loads (Remington, Aguila) for plinking as they tend to be accurate out of most of my guns and much quieter.

Oh, as to bulk packed ammo, I've had very good luck with CCI Blaser .22LR. I estimate that I've fired at least 1500 rounds of it, and while not the most accurate, it was good enough for plinking and squirrels out to 25 yards or so. I don't recall any duds in the bunch.

American Eagle is a no go in my experience.

November 11, 2006, 06:39 PM
I have never had a minimag fail to discharge. They are the only thing I will use for full auto. HPs and solids feed equally well.


November 11, 2006, 09:10 PM
CCI mini mag. They have always gone bang ,even after long storage. I have given away boxes and bricks of other brands -after a few years they would have a high misfire rate.

November 11, 2006, 10:02 PM
I haven't tallied any statistics in this thread {at least yet}, but my sense is telling me that CCI mini-mags (henceforth, CCIMM) are a top contender in my search.

I went shopping this afternoon. Well, really more exploring, to see what flavors were around my town: what was stocked and how much it cost. A local gun shop, Wally's, GIJoe & Bimart.

Summary: Lot's of Remington, Fed AE & CCI. Found Aguila at the gun shop. (Cheap: Aguila SuperExtra: $2. I bought a box. Sales guy said it stinks to shoot it. ???)

Gun store also recommended Wolf Match, but was out of it. Folks at the range prefer it around here, he says. They buy it all quickly.

No Winchester anywhere that I could see. Several other flavors of Fed, but I didn't look closely. Fed seems to have the highest number of strikes in here, well next to Remington ...

I found the price differences for CCI very interesting. Mini-mags in both HP and round tip ranged from $5/100 (Wally & gunshop) to $2.99/100 at bimart (not on sale). I bought three boxes, 2 HP, 1 round. (Inadvertently; meant to get 2 rounds, 1 hp.)

I'll write up a little review after I shoot it, comparing it to Fed AE. (That'll be a while, perhaps a long while; my 452 is scopeless and will be for some time. I won't make it back to the range with my .22.)

But now here comes the kicker, and the place where I get to admit that I must be total idiot.

I've got these three nice plastic boxes of CCI with slide tops, but I can't open any of them.

Yup, I've cut the label (which is made with really S*%%y glue :banghead: and doesn't peel off easily, prohibiting the top from sliding) and tried in vane to slide the top back. There's even a thumbnail groove on one end. Nothing opens this thing.

I've pushed the top from both ends with fingers, a coin and a large screwdriver. I've inserted a sharp knife under the edge and tried to pry off (would have broken).

I've read the back and find no reference to magic passwords or incense and sage spells. I've tried "abracadabra" and "open up you ***** !!! :cuss: )

What am I missing here? Am I really so much of an idiot that I can't open a box of .22LR? I'm generally fairly intelligent, and figure things out fairly well, but this one's got me beat for now.

November 11, 2006, 10:25 PM
"Stinks to shoot"

Aquila uses the Eley priming compound, which has a unique smell. I wouldn't say it stinks, it's just different smelling.

My vote is for CCI Minimags or Standard Velocity. I generally see a slight accuracy edge from the SV in my 10/22s and S&W 41, but the minimags definately shoot flatter.

CCI and Eley and Wolf/SK are the only brands of .22 RF i've never had a misfire with. Remington has been horrible for me. PMC, Aguila, and Winchester have rare misfires. Remington I get 2 or 3 misfires in a brick.

I haven't shot enough Lapua or Fiocchi to comment on the reliabilty.

November 11, 2006, 11:16 PM
I've had problems with the bulk Federal stuff, too.

My vote would be for CCI Mini-Mags, as well. A little pricier but reliable, consistent and fairly clean. Hollowpoints would probably be the better bet, but I don't think it makes a great deal of difference.

November 12, 2006, 12:37 AM
Federal Bulk ammo. 550 rounds for under 10 bucks. Wally World.

November 12, 2006, 12:45 AM
1 more vote for CCI MiniMags. They are reliable across a broad range of weapons, pack a whallop and are pretty accurate for a non-target load.

November 12, 2006, 12:54 AM
I shoot a Marlin M60 and a TC R55 .22. I have had problems with Federal Bulk Packs and Remington Golden Bullets. On the other hand both guns are dead reliable with Federal AE, Federal Champion, PMC Zappers, CCI Mini Mags and anything from Eley. My favorite with the TC are Zappers and Eley.

November 12, 2006, 03:42 AM
Am I really so much of an idiot that I can't open a box of .22LR?Well, I'm pleased to announce that I'm not an idiot after all.

I finally got the CCI boxes open.

The first of three that I got open was the box that I bought at the gun store, which was labeled very differently from the other two.

Big white letters:

I was right that the tops were sliders.

After I successfully removed the label (which had glued the top in place) with my Benchmade, it finally slid off.

I swear, I lost skin on a knuckle getting that first top off.

The other two from Bimart were labeled differently: "Mini-Mag,High Velocity"

There was a problem with them: 1) shoddy production of boxes, especially, 2) poorly produced labels that shredded without coming off smoothly stuck on with bad adhesive that glued the tops in place, and 3) sliding tops that don't slide easily, even now; 4) funky little nubbins on the underside of the sliding tops that catch the tops of the cartridges, preventing the tops from sliding.

I literally had to tap the tops with a hammer and screwdriver to dislodge the tops on the latter two. :what:

Were the guys at the factory a little to liberal with label glue application?

I hope I'm more impressed with CCI accuracy than I am with their boxes.


November 12, 2006, 07:39 AM
That sounds about right for the CCI boxes. They can be a PITA if you are not used to them. I always just slit the label as opposed to pulling it off. Trying to peel it off is a waste of time.

November 12, 2006, 10:57 AM
I usually use a poorly mnicured thumbnail to slit the label on the CCI plastic boxes.

If you look around on the web, you may be able to find mini-mags in cardboard boxes. The cardboard boxes are small like the remington thunderbolt boxes.

November 12, 2006, 12:20 PM
The CCI Velocitors have always shot well out of my guns, and will put a hurting on a squirrel without splattering.


The Aguila SSS rounds work well for special applications (cough deer cough).

November 12, 2006, 11:11 PM
I hate to break up the mini-mag party, but I've had at least two bricks of mini-mags that were just awful, failing to fire (maybe 25% failure rate). They were bought on two seperate occasions at least a few months apart, at two seperate locations. If you rotated the round 180 deg so that the firing pin struck the other side of the primer, those duds would fire. It wasn't the gun, as we tried two different weapons, bolt and semi. The indentations in the good and bad spots were the same depth as far as we could tell, so we ruled out bad brass. It was definitely bad primers. These bricks were bought in high volume locations, so we know it wasn't sitting on the store shelf for a long time. Ergo, we had two bricks that had absolutely craptacular quality control.

I've had great experiences with CCI's subsonic ammo, stingers, etc...it's just the minimags where we had the problem (I've probably only bought 20 bricks or so, so that's a 10% rate of bad bricks). This all happened in the last year.

I generally go with the federal bulk packs. I've experimented with with peters LRN, but it caused some bad lead fouling (keyholing at 7 meters...6 inches off target, in every direction.....so a 1 foot group at 7 meters...). Remington .22 short jammed in the magazine well of my grandpa's Remington .22 semi, and never fed all that well in the tube magazine anyway. Don't know about their .22lr.

November 13, 2006, 12:12 AM
OK, so we have reports of CCI faulty plastic boxes that don't open,
and our first report of CCI FTF, perhaps caused by faulty primers.

Statistically speaking, the bad news on CCI is fairly limited.
(I can deal with difficult to open boxes. Sledgehammer nearby.
But bad primers is a different story...:scrutiny: )

Anybody else?

November 13, 2006, 12:28 AM
never in my 25 years of hunting/shooting have i ever had a failure to fire with any CCI product. in my humble opinion, those people are as close to perfect as you can get when making ammo. im a HUGE fan!

November 13, 2006, 12:56 AM
Ah, my confidence is raised back up a notch.

No, two.

Bad batches of bullets are possible.

What say you?

<Hurricane force winds are pounding the beaches just 70 mi west of here on the Pacific coast. In this protected valley, I can hear them roaring like a 747 up high, with large trees coming down in more residential neighborhoods...It's times like these that make me seek the best do-all .22LR rnd...:scrutiny: >

November 13, 2006, 01:09 AM
I've had good luck with Winchester rimfire ammo in general. Winchester Super Silhouette is awesome but I think it's discontinued.

Remington Lighting is pure crap.

I keep about 20 different types of 22lr ammo on hand. Some of my guns like match grade ammo and some do better with the cheap stuff.

If you have $20 to spare, go to your favorite ammo store and buy several types and see what works best.

November 13, 2006, 02:07 AM
I've used lots of cci ammo... never one problem out of my 10/22. I've beem using Aguila lately... seems pretty good.

The only ammo I recall having misfires with was remington thunderbolt.

Bottom Gun
November 13, 2006, 10:53 AM
I agree with Spinnerblade. Winchester Power Point gets my vote for the best hunting ammo.

It is a full 40 gr HP with a large hollow cavity and expands reliably. It is some of the most accurate .22 ammo I have used.
I shot some through my chronograph and it really does produce 1280 fps. It goes even faster when I shoot it through my Anschutz. I can get approx 1350 fps with it.

It is the most effective HP ammo I have used.

CCI Mini mag would be my second choice.

November 13, 2006, 12:35 PM
I am going to take a different approach to your question as I do not at this time have a 22 (I know how could this be so) to shoot. Most of my shooting is 357, 45/70, 30-06 and 30-30 for the last year.

I am a scrounger and always scoop the brass can out at the local range and fetch up the good looking stuff under the tables if there is alot. I always end up with some 22 discards or dropsies. I have put them in containers for the time I do plink with a 22 as it would be nice to "shoot for free". All of these were in the MT brass bucket or ground and collected in the last 6 months. I took a pix of all the this but was not able to edit it to a size suitable for the picture viewing requirements ogthis site.

Here is the results of my pickings:
FTF = strike of any sort Dropsie - no rim marks what so ever

Remington gold bullet: Dropsie non FTF - 122
FTF - 35
Remington black bullet: Dropsie non FTF -30
FTF - 5
Federal copper color bullet: Dropsie non FTF -106
FTF - 19
Federal black bullet: Dropsie non FTF - 15
FTF - 4
Winchester copper colored bullet: Dropsie non ftf - 21
FTF - 8
Winchester black bullet: Dropsie non FTF - 58
FTF - 10
Aguila/all bullet types: dropsie non FTF - 8
FTF - 9
CCI: copper colored: dropsie non FTF - 14
FTF - 2 (ultra light mark on rim)
CCI black bullet: Dropsie non FTF - 9
FTF - 0

What does it all mean? Well folks toss out or carelessly drop hundreds of 22's at my local range over the course of the year. While alot of the FTF could be attributed to an individual firearm, it would seem that there are a lot more of Remington gold bullet 22's that are FTF in this example but a lot less with the black bullet. Some of these FTF's had 2, 3 and 4 strike marks along the rims. Looking down through the various numbers the only thing I can say for sure is that the CCi's seem to leave less behind and have nearly no FTF's. Indeed the 2 CCi FTF's I have are rimstruck so very light that it is likely a gun problem in my estimation.

So......... When I finally get a 22 to play with I reckon I will get CCI's, if they are reasonable...

Someday I will try to fire all the FTF's in a known properly operating gun.


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