[Lbys]

This is a concerning story for me. Chanhassen is a town of ~20,000, and is the next town west from mine in the exurbs of Minneapolis. I realize this sort of thing can happen almost anywhere, but these towns are not necessarily hotbeds of criminal activity, as are some areas of Minneapolis proper.

Aside from the obvious heinousness of the crime, and in addition to knowing your general opinions, I have some specific questions:


How powerful an advertisement is this for CCW?
I assume that a sawed-off rifle would be effective at garage-length distances--can anyone confirm?
Garage door left open--does this speak to lack of tactical awareness in your opinion?

Other thoughts are welcome, too. If nothing else, this gives me more justification for getting my CCW.

http://www.startribune.com/467/story/802908.html

[stevek]

The first thing that comes to my mind from your post is the legality of a "sawed off rifle" I believe the law has a minimum length that is considered to be legal. I could be wrong though...

[rhubarb]

"When you see the eyes of these children, it gets personal," Olson said. "It gets very personal."

That is exactly the reason I feel compelled to carry a sidearm at all times.:fire:

[Standing Wolf]

After the father brought his sons home from swim lessons, he sent them upstairs for showers and went to walk the dog, leaving the garage door open, Olson said. When he returned, the man, wearing a mask and gloves, was inside the garage by the entrance to the house. He had a knife and a sawed-off rifle and told the father to go inside, where he was restrained.

People sometimes leave garages open for hours on end in my neighborhood. I'd hate to be the criminal who tried to hide in one and attack people: most of us are armed around here, and wouldn't trust a criminal not to kill us after robbing us.

[Can'thavenuthingood]

The family asked authorities not to release their names.

I wonder who this family is?

Hmmm. Lives at the end of a long winding road in Chanhassen, population 20,000.
Recently moved in from California to take job as CEO of company in Minnetonka last january.
Has 3 kids, a 9-year-old girl and two boys, ages 6 and 7.
Their mother moved to Chanhassen from California last spring.

Its a head scratcher.

Vick

[springmom]

Yikes. My first thought was "welcome to Houston..." :banghead:

This is certainly an example of a situation in which carrying a gun would have made a huge difference. Perhaps the parents will consider that now.

Springmom

[benEzra]

The first thing that comes to my mind from your post is the legality of a "sawed off rifle" I believe the law has a minimum length that is considered to be legal. I could be wrong though...
Possession of a rifle with a barrel less than 16" long, without a BATFE Form 4, is a 10-year Federal felony, as I recall. The rifle's overall length cannot be less than 26".

In short, short-barreled rifles are regulated the same as machineguns, except the transfer tax is $5 instead of $200 and the registry is still open.

[X-Rap]

I don't want to seem insensitive to what happened to these people but I'm glad that these suburburbs are a buffer around the big cities. Either the ones living in suburbia start to realize the danger they live in and take charge of their lives or they will continue to be victimized at a rate only exceded by those still living in the city. Many states laws and governments are greatly shaped by the many who live on a fairly small footprint of the state. MInnesota is a prime example, you have a large rural state that has statewide issues decided in the Minneapolis St. Paul, St.Cloud area and the rural people have to live by it. How many other states can you think of. Here in Colorado the ballot initiatives have have nearly negated the legislature.I'm shure that the general consensous there though is we need another law take away more guns and hire more cops to make us safe.When we learn to teach the criminals to fear us not the law then we will see a change.

[CraigJS]

For some reason this story doesn't smell right to me.. Sawed off rifle? Sawed off shotgun in this instance would have been the better choice.. This was a planned thing by someone he knows. Too many people involved (5) comming together at seperate times.. All tied up by one person? No cordless phones (my small home has 5), no cell phones (we have 4). He (the BG) keeps them securred untill morning, moves part or all of them into the family vehicle. Then they drive to the bank where one or more of them goes into the bank. (this must have been a parent or the parents alone, I don't think Mr. Mask would go over well in a bank) Couldn't a note or verbel have warned a bank employee? They give him the usual undisclosed amount of money. They all drive back to the "crime scene", are secured there and Mr. Mask drives away in the family car/truck. Wouldn't there have had to have been someone else in on this caper? How did he get to their house, hitchhike? Wouldn't it have been smarter to have BG number 2 pick him up closer with in walking distance? (or if real sure of your operation right in the driveway) no stolden vehicle to trip you up. Dump the mask and gloves, secure the weapon. The area was isolated, so not alot of window watchers next door. No alarm system?
Welcome to safe Minnesota, even here some BG will notice "condition white" and use it to their advantage...
Like I said before something smells!
Be safe.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago, though nothing criminal was likely intended. I was by my car in the driveway with the trunk open because I wanted to practice my golf swing, and my clubs were in the trunk. Was reaching in when all the sudden a black man of about 20 years old appears behind me, walking right up to me. Sorry for the reference to color, but there were no black families in my neighborhood, and I wasn't expecting anyone on my property at that time, other than perhaps a neighbor who might just walk up for a visit. Anyway, he walks up right behind me as I'm reaching for my five iron. I see him out of the corner of my eye, turn around fast with a golf club in my hand held up in a casual baseball bat style. The guy freaks out and runs away. I said, "No, I'm just getting ready to practice my golf swing," but he kept backing away and left. That was a funny coincidence. I don't know what the guy wanted. Could have just wanted to ask directions, for all I know, but he went off by foot down the block.

Just so happened that I was also packing, but he didn't know that.

[kirkcdl]

Stevek,the law also says it's illegal to kidnap and rob people,so I doubt the criminal cared much about the legality of his weapon.This would make a good case against gun control,though...

[DnPRK]

Gang members in LA are known to saw the stock and barrel down on Ruger 10/22s. It makes them concealable in baggy pants they wear.

[P0832177]

Stuff happens! On my way to work I look in amazement of how many people leave their garage doors open, and I bet a dime to a dollar that the door from the garage to the house is open, too! Hey, the upside is that everyone is okay! I live about 4 miles from the site!

[goalie]

Stuff happens! On my way to work I look in amazement of how many people leave their garage doors open, and I bet a dime to a dollar that the door from the garage to the house is open, too! Hey, the upside is that everyone is okay! I live about 4 miles from the site!

God help the stupid SOB that casually walks into your place though.

[wdlsguy]

the transfer tax is $5 instead of $200
$200 to make or transfer a short-barreled rifle.

[Car Knocker]

How powerful an advertisement is this for CCW?

For some, it would be powerful. For others, it would be meaningless.

I assume that a sawed-off rifle would be effective at garage-length distances--can anyone confirm?

It would depend on exactly how short the barrel was and how well the shortening work was performed. Anything that will fire a cartridge will be effective well beyond garage length. Without more information, a "sawed-off rifle" could be just about anything, from a factory lever-action carbine to a regular rifle with the stock cut off.

Garage door left open--does this speak to lack of tactical awareness in your opinion?

More of a lack of common sense, I would think. It's attractive to both intruders and thieves.

[Srigs]

This is why I carry at home also! :)

[Wakal]

Question is...what do they consider a sawed off rifle to be. Back in the day when the Mpls PD sold the confiscated firearms there were always at least a couple of Glenfield .22 semi-auto rifles that had the stocks cut to the pistol grip (cheap 18 shot shooters).

They would have to pull the wood off before they could resell them because with the cut stocks they were clasified as "sawed-off" because their overal length was too short. Of course the "damaged" stocks were thrown in the scrap-wood barrels (average 10 stocks per barrel and you had to take the whole barrel for your bid price).

And of course, just as I was typing this the news came on Channel 4 and a follow up on this story came up. That still don't know the who and why but the description of the masked man was that he had a sawed-off SHOTGUN hanging around his neck and that he threatened the family with a KNIFE that he held in his hands during the whole ordeal.

No sawed-off rifle...no holding sawed-off rifle...NO RIFLE.

I was going to comment on some of the other statements in the article, but hearing the boardcast news reminded me that it was from the Socialist Star and Tribune....a paper whose editorial policy is if its not to the left it is wrong and if you didn't know all the facts...make them up to fit our leftist views of the world.

CEO on the end of a dead end road, in a new, very big house...guy walks to the house and waits for him in an open garage. A stranger to the family? You think he might know them?

Or was he just walking through the wooded ravine like Goldy Locks and came across a big house with an open garage? While carrying a shotgun around your neck and carrying a knife.

The Sheriff was quoted as saying that "we believe he walked to the area". How far do they think he walked? Their truck was found in Minnneapolis. He walked the 40 plus miles from Mpls with a shotgun hanging around his neck? Or maybe be got a ride to the other side of the ravine before walking through there to the house because he had a PLAN.

Even the Investigators were stated to say that it would be unusal for someone to just happen upon the house, which is in a new neighborhood and off the beaten path.

But why bother getting your facts straight for a story when all you have to focus on is the traumatic experience of that poor family.

Getting all the rights facts may help the police catch the guy and why would you want to help them? And besides the person who did it must have enough social problems that forced him to do what he did....so it was all our fault that he was forced to do that because we didn't have all the social programs in place that might have helped him...

Poor traumatized family.....rifles bad......brain washed...NOT.......

[X-Rap]

I hope they follow the construction worker lead. Out here close to Vail and Aspen I,m surprised we don't have these kind of crimes on a regular basis. We have a huge illegal population and the big builders and the rich love them cause they get work on the cheap. It doesn't seem that they compute the loss gain factor of having people living here that basicly live as though they are in a parralell dimension.The press is friendly to them and you rarely get any hard news unless It's a big story that can't be ignored.What news gets out usually involve the perp fleeing to mexico or cali.on his way to mexico.

[P0832177]

Goalie - HVLT with surgical precison!

[jon_in_wv]

In Minnesota it is perfectly legal to own a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18 inches. You can even purchase shotgun pistols that shoot .410 rounds. The paperwork is a little different as it is treated like a handgun with its shorter barrel. You can buy 12 inch barrelled 12 guages with three or four rounds mags.

[Car Knocker]

In Minnesota it is perfectly legal to own a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18 inches.

It may be legal in MN (it also is in Utah) but it's not legal federally unless you go through the tax stamp process.

[foghornl]

Mrs. Foggy & I live in what we consider is a 'very good area', a good deal east of Cleveland.

She sometimes works oddball hours (MICU nurse), and has seen garage doors open in the middle of the night (midnight-4:00AM), with absolutely NO house lights on that are visible from the street.

That being said, I DO NOT leave the garage door open any longer than required to move cars/people in/out. I used to leave the garage door open if I was say mowing the yard, but not now. Back yard is much bigger than the front, and I can't see what might be going on out front when mowing/gardening in the back.

[TexasRifleman]

This was a planned thing by someone he knows. Too many people involved (5) coming together at seperate times..

I have a personal belief, though it's hard to prove, that nearly all of these things end up being done by someone the homeowner knows.

Home invasions are such a high risk activity for the criminal it doesn' t make any sense that they are crimes of happenstance.

The average dirtbag criminal does what he does because it's an easy way out. The fact that the perp was prepared with some, to say the least interesting, weapons makes it sound even more like a targeted attack. He wasn't just cruising the neighborhood with a "sawed off rifle" looking for random targets.

Blindly walking into a home where you have no idea of the situation just makes no sense.

Ths guy knew his attacker in some way. Even though the article says the homeowner doesn't, it appears the cops suspect differently.

I am sure there is a percentage of totally random home invasions, but I just believe it has to be a VERY low percentage.

Just leaving his garage door open is not what started this. Advertising the fact that he had lots of cash in the bank might have been more likely.

Remember the thread on leaving ATM receipts laying around we had the other day?

From a tactical and strategic standpoint not advertising your ability to raise cash might be better than worrying about the garage door.

[Lonestar]

After the father brought his sons home from swim lessons, he sent them upstairs for showers and went to walk the dog, leaving the garage door open, Olson said. When he returned, the man, wearing a mask and gloves, was inside the garage by the entrance to the house. He had a knife and a sawed-off rifle and told the father to go inside, where he was restrained.

Sorry but the same thing that applies to victims never getting a car. I am not letting a bad guy in my house while my family is safe inside. The father should have ran, yelled, or started fighting right there. This story could have been a thousand times worse instead of just a plain robbery. He could have been letting in a rapist or a murder to have his way with his family.

I had a friend who had a similar situation happen to him. He was coming home from a night of drinking ( it was our mutual friend's bachelor party:D ) and as went his front door a BIG guy came up behind him with a piece of pipe and said "Open the door and give me your keys." He had no car, he just got out of a cab, so all my friend could think about was his family inside. There were guns in his house and along with his wife and baby, his father who was an ex-cop lived also with him, but it was 3am everyone was asleep. Now my friend is short and skinny, but downright crazy. He turned to face the guy and threw his keys up onto the roof. He told me later, he had a feeling this guy wanted to kill him and his family. He yelled like a guy in braveheart, and took a swing at the guy. He is still proud to this day the he connect and knock the guy back a little, however the guy who was built like a body builder and a foot taller proceeded to beat the snot out of my friend. His two saving graces were that he did not stop yelling, and being a little tipsy helped numb the pain. Eventually his family, and the neighbors woke up and the guy fled. The guy was caught a short time later.

Here is the important part. The guy was already wanted for another assault and rape. What would have happed if got inside?

[P0832177]

In Minnesota it is perfectly legal to own a shotgun with a barrel of less than 18 inches. You can even purchase shotgun pistols that shoot .410 rounds. The paperwork is a little different as it is treated like a handgun with its shorter barrel. You can buy 12 inch barrelled 12 guages with three or four rounds mags.


The guns like the Taurus shoot 45LC or 410, they are legal!

These short barreled shotguns :banghead: are not legal over the counter purchases! Funny thing that Federal law makes them NFA items!

[TexasRifleman]

There is a difference between a handgun that shoots shotgun or rifle rounds and a short barrelled shotgun or rifle, mostly revolving around how you hold/shoot it.

An AR without a stock can be a pistol, put a stock on it and it becomes a rifle.
Also it had to be a pistol from day one. Removing the stock of a rifle does not make it a pistol,it had to be manufactured as a pistol or it's an SBR.

[Maui19]

This is the kind of crime I think all homeowners are worried about: a random home invasion. Perhaps the perp knew the people, or had been through the neighborhood. Delivery people, landscapers, laborers all cruise through these types of neighborhoods without being noticed by anyone. As far as flaunting wealth--it's hard to hide a big house. The perp may have decided the neighborhood was ripe and then chose the house that gave him easiest access.

I should point out that while this was a very scary and dangerous situation, the family came through without physical injuries, which is the important thing.

[Lbys]

Now we have a name of the family, but the story is still light on details. Just FYI--any thoughts?

http://www.startribune.com/467/story/808393.html

[jon_in_wv]

* A handgun ``includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle.''---Minnesota State Law

Minnesota classifies a shorty shotgun as a handgun and you purchase it like a handgun. I don't know the legality of how they get around the tax stamp business but this is how its always been. Many states would call a derringer that shoots a .410 shell a sawed off shotgun and therefore illegal. Federal law does not require a 200 tax for those either.

[jon_in_wv]

Also, according to the gun control act of 1968 the tax stamp only applies to the manufacturer or importer of the shortbarrelled rifel or shotgun, NOT the purchaser and I found nothing in that law that prohibits ownership of these weapons. (state laws not withstanding)

[S.P.E.C.T.R.E.]

I live about 10 miles from where this happened. My wife, who has been permissive yet "hands off" of my gun collecting / carrying, was shaken enough by this incident to agree to more strict security measures, as it keeping all outside doors locked when she's in the house with our son. She's also agreed to learn how to load and fire the tactical shotgun in the bedroom. We'll see if she actually goes through with the last one but it's a start.

[Double Naught Spy]

How powerful an advertisement is this for CCW?
I assume that a sawed-off rifle would be effective at garage-length distances--can anyone confirm?
Garage door left open--does this speak to lack of tactical awareness in your opinion?

How powerful an advertisement for CCW? Not very powerful. Both parents were coming from off property when approached by the thugs, both parents apparently being absolutely clueless to their surroundings. As they were taken by surprise, their only hope would have been to try to draw on already drawn guns. That usually is a losing proposition.

Why would you use a sawed off rifle when a regular rifle or shotgun would work fine?

Lack of tactical awareness on leaving the garage door open? Common people are not tactical. They don't do tactical. From a common person standpoint, it was just plain stupid/careless.

[wdlsguy]

Minnesota classifies a shorty shotgun as a handgun
And federal law will classify it as a "short-barreled shotgun" (SBS) or "any other weapon" (AOW), depending on how it was manufactured and registered.

and you purchase it like a handgun.
Under Minnesota law. You still have to comply with federal (NFA) law.

I don't know the legality of how they get around the tax stamp business
They don't, unless they are criminals.

[wdlsguy]

the tax stamp only applies to the manufacturer or importer of the shortbarrelled rifel or shotgun, NOT the purchaser
The purchaser needs an approved Form 4 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf), with the associated transfer tax, before taking possession of an NFA weapon.

[wdlsguy]

Why would you use a sawed off rifle when a regular rifle or shotgun would work fine?
Because a "sawed off" rifle or shotgun is easier to conceal than a regular rifle or shotgun.

[BryanP]

The guns like the Taurus shoot 45LC or 410, they are legal!

Those are not legally considered shotguns. That is a .45LC pistol which can also fire a .410 shotgun round. Also, to be legal they must be rifled, not smoothbore.