marine or fbi 1911


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pale horse
May 20, 2003, 01:14 PM
Alright a bit of information has been put on these 2 pistols which would you pick and why? I am talking about carry this pistol for defensive purposes.

I will go first.

Marines .45.

It is everything I would want in a pistol and I would not be afraid if it was dropped or scratched. Not that I make it a pratice of dropping pistols but they are tools. Plus I am a Marine.

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cratz2
May 20, 2003, 01:53 PM
I'd gladly and proudly carry a Springfield Professional. Scratched up or not. ;) Carry guns are meant to be imperfect, finish-wise or else they ain't carry guns. :p

Handy
May 20, 2003, 02:12 PM
Well, Springfield actually sells the FBI model.

No one puts out the equivalent of the 1911 the Marines cobbled together, so you can't buy one.


Since the Springfield is the only one you could actually have to worry about scratching, I don't get the question.


These are two very different guns, anyway. You question could be read as "would you like a reliably loose surplus gun or a match fitted pricey gun?"

Andrew Wyatt
May 20, 2003, 02:30 PM
the MEU(SOC) is a fitted piece.


I've got a rough equivalent of it at the house, sans beavertail and hammer.

Handy
May 20, 2003, 03:45 PM
Andrew,

They are somewhat fitted, but by no means tight.

Sean Smith
May 20, 2003, 05:13 PM
Both are nice on their own merits. MEUSOC is closer to the features I'd want. Neither is 100%.

SA has the big mag well and 20 LPI checkering, neither of which I personally would want to carry.

blades67
May 20, 2003, 06:11 PM
I'll stick with my Kimber.:D

Marko Kloos
May 20, 2003, 06:26 PM
I've never held a MEU(SOC) 1911, but the Springfield Professional is by far the tightest 1911 I've ever seen. The first time I tried to rack the slide on it, I thought I'd left the thumb safety on. The list of parts going into the Pro reads like an "anything goes" wish list.

Despite its lofty price tag, the Pro is a no-frills, serious fighting tool, not an ounce for beauty or appearance. Every little feature and detail is there to enhance the usability of the gun in hard use. I could probably live without the permanent extended magazine well, but other than that it has all the features I'd want in a fighting handgun. Even the 20LPI "DNA sampler" front strap checkering kind of grows on you after a while.

pale horse
May 20, 2003, 06:49 PM
Handy I should have asked would you prefer the fbi over the Marine Corps new 1911. I was thinking along the lines of a do anything, go anywhere, no bs pistol.

Dont get me wrong I would love to have a PRO, but I dont know if I could justify spending 2000 on one. Heck I would be afraid to shoot the Pro for fear of scratching or dinging it up.

However geting a pistol that is tight is not always a good thing. In fact most gunsmiths say that the bushing/barrel fit is much more important than the slide to frame fit.

I guess the great thing about the 1911 is the ability to customize it any way you want from milspec to 5000.00 race gun.

blades67
May 20, 2003, 06:54 PM
I guess the great thing about the 1911 is the ability to customize it any way you want from milspec to 5000.00 race gun.



Yup!:D

Tamara
May 21, 2003, 12:18 AM
However geting a pistol that is tight is not always a good thing. In fact most gunsmiths say that the bushing/barrel fit is much more important than the slide to frame fit.

It's the bushing fit and barrel lockup that lendringser was referring to. Don't worry; it still feeds everything.

Heck I would be afraid to shoot the Pro for fear of scratching or dinging it up.

Why?

It's a teflon-covered fighting tool, not a pretty blued showhorse; I carry mine every day.

Handy
May 21, 2003, 12:58 AM
Pale Horse,

If I knew where to get a pistol made from WWII parts with couple of non-MIM custom parts thrown in for a nice price, I'd be all over that, too.

I guess one could customize a Sistema Colt. But I don't think anyone is offering a gun that is loose and reliable, yet nicely constructed with correctly dimensioned and tough parts.

sm
May 21, 2003, 01:04 AM
quote:"...but I dont know if I could justify spending 2000 on one. Heck I would be afraid to shoot the Pro for fear of scratching or dinging it up..."

quote:"Despite its lofty price tag, the Pro is a no-frills, serious fighting tool, not an ounce for beauty or appearance."
----------

:uhoh: I've used the Pro, A couple of Caspian's and my favorite Kimber against the rules I guess. . Stone cold reliable, well fitted, rugged, robust, and they look nice too. I have fallen and in keeping safe and muzzle downrange arisen from the mud puddle comencing to continue with a a gooey mud covered 1911, Like a pig in slop.

You mean I wasn't suppose to carry the Caspian and hunt in the snow, or how about that time I was trying to best my time climbing the mountain...sliding and tumbling is quicker I found out when decending. Its a tool, good looks are nice, I prefer function.

Character and scratches are not the same. Mine have character;)

Tamara
May 21, 2003, 01:13 AM
Snug barrel lockup does not preclude reliability, nor does sloppy locking lug engagement guarantee it.

Handy
May 21, 2003, 01:24 AM
I believe the Marine guns do have fairly snug barrel lock up.

But they do have loose slide to frame fit.

Tamara
May 21, 2003, 01:32 AM
The Pro's slide-to-frame fit is snug (though I've felt tighter), but feels like it's running on teflon-coated rails... ;)

Trust me, it's plenty reliable.

I would like to build a duplicate of the MEU(SOC) gun, too, though. Yum.

(Shouldn't be too hard to track down an old military 1911 for a donor gun that's either been re-blued or had most of the finish worn off. Of course, I'm neck-deep in too many projects as it is... :uhoh: )

Andrew Wyatt
May 21, 2003, 01:40 AM
mine's a series 80 with the FP safety deactivated. all i'd need to do to make it resemble a meusoc outwardly is change the grip panels out for a pachmayr wrap around, put in a beavertail, and change out the hammer. it's already got the sights , bar sto barrel and all the other jazz.

Handy
May 21, 2003, 02:14 AM
The Meusoc is made of old, unused parts. An old issue gun is going to be worn. Finding a new issue gun would best be done at a museum.

I was really surprised they were able to come up with enough parts to do it.

cratz2
May 21, 2003, 05:34 AM
Dont get me wrong I would love to have a PRO, but I dont know if I could justify spending 2000 on one. Heck I would be afraid to shoot the Pro for fear of scratching or dinging it up.

Funny... if I were to suddenly find myself in the possession of a Pro, I'd want to use it as much as possible so it DID look used... Not abused, but definately used.

The Pros that I've handled felt pretty darn tight but if lubed up just a bit, smooth like glass. Esp after a couple hundred rounds. Just like Tamera said... and she should know.
;)

Fed168
May 21, 2003, 07:12 AM
Iron Brigade Armory is making a copy of the MEUSOC 1911.

Tecolote
May 21, 2003, 10:01 AM
Get yourself a Springfield MilSpec and build your own MEU type 1911.

"This is a special model, produced within the USMC, for their Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable MEU(SOC)). The Marines didn't like the M9 pistol very much, so they went ahead and used their internal expertise, to come up with a pistol suitable for the needs of their elite units. The pistols start out as a stripped government M1911A1 frame, as manufactured up until 1945 or so. The frame is inspected, and the feed ramp polished and throated while the external areas are is dehorned. Internal parts include : King's beaver-tail grip safety and ambidextrous thumb safety, Videcki aluminum Match triggers (tuned to a pull of between 4-5 pounds), Colt Commander hammers, either Caspian and Springfield slides with forward slide serrations, Bar-Sto barrels, King's barrel bushings, King's stake-on front sight, an in-house custom-made rear sight, lowered and flared ejection port, fiber recoil buffer (GOOD LORD!!), flat mainspring housing, lanyard loop, Pachmayer rubber grip panels finish out the package. There is no checkering on the MEU(SOC) pistol. The pistols are delivered with Wilson-Rogers 7 round stainless magazines, which are carried in Eagle pouches on the belt, and in a piggyback pouch on the load-bearing vest. The pistol itself is carried in a Safariland tactical holster (usually models3004 or 3005)."

(from http://www.m1911.org/mod_vari.htm):)

pale horse
May 21, 2003, 12:31 PM
"Why? It's a teflon-covered fighting tool, not a pretty blued showhorse; I carry mine every day."

Well Tamara I guess that if I can get a gun that does the same thing the pro does, but not at pro prices thats the way I would go. And the other part is for me to spend that much on a single pistol I think I would be more prone to use it as a BBQ gun.

I just cant see spending 2000 and waiting 3 or 4 months, slightly longer now the fbi just ordered more, for a full custom pistol. I own a loaded and it out shoots me. Until I master it I will not buy a custom rig.

Tecolote good point.

Sean Smith
May 21, 2003, 12:47 PM
But I don't think anyone is offering a gun that is loose and reliable, yet nicely constructed with correctly dimensioned and tough parts.

New Colts are pretty close, actually. Only MIM parts are the sear, disconnector, and mag catch. Pretty much everything else is forged or machined from barstock. Good, well-fitted barrels and slide-to-frame fit isn't super tight (but isn't pure slop from what I've seen either).

People judging Colt based on 5 year-old info or experience are out of touch with current reality. 5 years ago, I would have told you to "screw Colt." Now I think they make a better practical weapon than Kimber does. They even have a nice website now... go figure! :eek:

Handy
May 21, 2003, 12:52 PM
Sean,

With all respect, 12 years ago everyone was saying the exact same things about Colt when the 1991 series came out. Things may be different now, but I'll wait at least 5 years to see if that is true. The "Return of Colt Quality" has been heralded many times in the past, but I have yet to hear someone specifically recommend Colt products from a given era (after WWII).

I'm just not interested in finding out more about Colt's customer service department. Maybe the Colt QA teeter totter ride is over, maybe not.

Tecolote
May 21, 2003, 01:03 PM
Thing with the new Colts is the price. They run about $600 to $650 in my area. You can get a Springfield MilSpec for a lot less. But if money isn't an issue then they're a great option to use as a base.

For a MEU project to me a used MilSpec is the way to go. Heck, the MEU pistols used WWII frames! Why not come as close as you can with a good used 1911?

You don't have to spend $2000 for a MEU type 1911. Most of the work you can do yourself. Only the match barrel would have to get fitted. You'll spend more than on a ready made package like a TRP or Kimber but you get to choose exactly what parts you want.

cratz2
May 22, 2003, 06:55 PM
Around here, Colt's 1991A1 is $550 and the Springfield MilSpec is about $450. The Colt's also comes with a blued finish and nice Chip McCormick (or very similar) double diamond cocobolo grips. If the gun is going to be left as is, I think the Colt is the better value.

And I still don't know what the big deal is with evaluating guns. If you consider yourself a 1911 snob (kidding) to the point of telling people what guns are good and which ones are crap, you should be able to stand in a shop, handle it, rack the slide a few times, do a safety check, evaluate the trigger, take the slide off, look inside the gun, look at the frame and throat and tell with some semblence of knowledge if the gun is decent or not. Regardless of what the company is generally putting out now or what they've put out the past. I mean, Springfield puts out decent stuff, but a few of the pieces I've seen are extremely impressive to the point where nationally-known pistolsmiths are genuinely impressed. Of course, they never like how the grips safeties are(n't) fitted. :p

Sean Smith
May 22, 2003, 11:39 PM
With all respect, 12 years ago everyone was saying the exact same things about Colt when the 1991 series came out.

On what planet? "Avoid the ugly-??? 1991 Colts" was all I ever heard about those guns from anybody, including Colt fans.

Tamara
May 23, 2003, 02:45 AM
I mean, Springfield puts out decent stuff, but a few of the pieces I've seen are extremely impressive to the point where nationally-known pistolsmiths are genuinely impressed. Of course, they never like how the grips safeties are(n't) fitted.

It'd be nice if they didn't leave three feet of extractor hanging out the rear of the slide, too. ;)

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