[QKRTHNU]

Just watched "The Pianist".

Pretty good movie. Scary movie.

I'm not sure how closely it holds to what really happened, but if it's at all close I can't believe what the Jews put up with.

I can't imagine something of that scale being pulled off in this country. Telling 300,000+ people that they have to relocate to one part of the city and them actually going along with that idea.

I think the part of the movie that disturbed me the most was after the small ghetto had been destroyed and the Pianist was working in a small labor group. They were lined up and several men picked out of line to be shot. They were told to lay on the ground while one by one they were shot in the back of the head. The last guy had to wait for the German soldier to reload.

Obviously that scene was Hollywood, but I'll bet similar situations happened.

I just can't comprehend how someone could just lay there knowing that you were going to be killed and not do anything. :confused:

I mean, if you're going to die for sure by doing nothing, than you have absolutely nothing to loose. I would much rather be shot in the face putting up a fight than in the back of the head.

That and the fact that anyone in their right mind would have left the country years before they actually started killing people, forced relocation would be enough to make me leave. I'll live in the woods eating bugs before someone forces me to live somewhere I don't want to.

I guess it was a really good movie, because it pissed me off on so many different levels. I was pissed at the Nazis for doing the things they did and I was pissed at the Jews for letting them.

[Joe Demko]

Until you have been there, you don't know what you would do. None of us do. Maybe you'd go down fighting. Maybe you wouldn't. History shows, with its long litany of massacres, that people going numb and losing the will to resist is far from uncommon. Happened in the past, happening today...all over the world.

[Pendragon]

I guess they just didn't have a strong enough desire to be free.

Hindsight = 20/20


Unlike you, they did not have the luxury of history and the internet to mull everything over from the very safe place behind the keyboard.

The Nazis took great pains to not let the Jews know exactly what was going to happen to them until it was too late.

Certainly if they started out saying "ok, everyone on the train, time to go to the death camp!" there would have been a revolt.

They were told they would be relocated and lied to. People clung to the hope that it was only temporary and things would get better.

As for people being executed - some probably did not resist because they were afraid that more people - maybe friends and family would be killed if they resisted.


I hope you are very young, because thats one of the few good excuses I can think of for insulting about 6 million people who were murdered.


There is more than enough crap going on in this country to justify some kind of uprising - at least people taking to the streets and demanding liberty "or else".

Yet what do we do? We write letters and wring our hands and hope for the best. Good people are loath to commit violence when a peaceful solution may be found - even to the point of significant suffering.

This is the worst thing about good people - our optimism and longsuffering enables tyrants.

I hope you will rethink your position.

[blades67]

You talk tough over the Internet. I doubt you'd sing the same song with a machinegun pointed at you by some one that hates you because of your religious beliefs. You weren't there, so get over yourself.:rolleyes:

[Ladybug]

I guess they just didn't have a strong enough desire to be free.

You can't make that kind of judgement... as Golgo said, you were not there. Not only were you not there, you have no idea what it is like to live under a regime like that, to be in constant fear, and to be so completely oppressed. We would all like to think that if we lived in Nazi Germany, we would rise up and defeat the Nazis, that we would be the brave ones who fought back. Well, those statements coming from the freest bunch of people who ever walked the earth, who live in luxury and a completely different society, 75 years after the fact, are really nothing more than fantasies. It is good to say "I will never let this happen again." it is NOT okay to look back and make judgements about how people handled it back then.

[Don Gwinn]

They were. People still are.

[2nd Amendment]

Regardless of whether he was there or not he still has a point. Could you lay there knowing you will, absolutely, die and do nothing at all? I don't see that there's even a question of will or heroism there. I'd think simple terror would motivate a person to at least run, scream, curse, do anything. One last chance, the result being the same regardless. At least in trying there's always that possibility that something might happen, no matter how remote the chance.

Was I there? No. Would I have just given up? No. If nothing else I'd have been too damn scared to just lay there.

[QKRTHNU]

The Nazis took great pains to not let the Jews know exactly what was going to happen to them until it was too late.
I don't recall the exact timeframe the movie portrayed, but it was something like 2 years between them being rounded up and forced into the ghetto and when they started killing folks.

2 years!

Like I said at the end of my post. Anyone who values their freedom would have left the damn country or at least the urban area long before they were in mortal danger.

I hope you are very young, because thats one of the few good excuses I can think of for insulting about 6 million people who were murdered.
I am fairly young. But I don't see what that has to do with anything. I realize that many during that time were killed and couldn't have done anything about it. I feel very sorry for them. But the movie at least made it look like there were many people who played right into the Nazis hands and therefore contributed to their own demise.

They wouldn't had to have been valant warriors to survive.

[jmbg29]

Were people really this spineless? Yes. Change the question to "Are people..." the answer is still yes.

Even in an ideal setting, little more than 25% of any population will be willing to fight.

[Ol' Badger]

All that hatred for people with less skin on their dingy's. Sad.:(
But it would seem that the Jews have learned to stick up for themselfs at last. Looking back, they did it to everyone who hated them in the Bible. I wounder what made them belive the krauts? I just don't trust anyone who wants to wear all black and march around.

[Art Eatman]

Look around on a smaller scale: The number of people here in the U.S. who say, "Oh, THEY wouldn't do that!" when they read of some potential for abuse of police power--by the EPA or the USF&WS. Or similarly, when a robber says that if everybody cooperates there will be no harm--and then shoots everybody in the room.

Same on the passage of laws against drugs, and then some Nice Person discovers that somebody else's bit of drug or paraphernalia leads to confiscation of that innocent's property.

Heck, even the belief that passage of the Civil Rights laws wouldn't lead to reverse discrimination or quotas! "They wouldn't do that!"

People generally WANT to believe that cooperation averts harm. Or that "discussion" or "negotiation" will avert danger...

Art

[QKRTHNU]

As for people being executed - some probably did not resist because they were afraid that more people - maybe friends and family would be killed if they resisted.
This I can understand.

Hopefully if anything like this ever happens here I'll do my best and not to be in that situation to begin with.

[Ol' Badger]

Look at the <gag> French? Out of what 50 million people during WWII on 2,000 were Freedom Fighters! Hell, when the Dog Faces landed on the beach, then every French man was in the Resistance!

[Ladybug]

Anyone who values their freedom would have left the damn country or at least the urban area long before they were in mortal danger.

And go where? Imagine that you have no homeland other than where you currently are. You have no money, and you live in a society where you can't do anything unless you have political connections. Several of your relatives have vanished and you live in hope every day that you will see them again, or at least find out what happened to them. You are taking care of your elderly mother, who would not be able to survive if you tried to live in ditches and caves. You are told that you will be reunited with your missing family and given a new job that will allow you to work for your freedom so you can go wherever you want again. Your mother will be given a place to live where she will be taken care of. You are told this by a group of 10 men in uniform who are holding guns to your head. You are not armed. You have heard the stories - about your neighbor's husband who made some off-hand comment about Hitler and was shot in the head in front of his children. Do you go with the men on the off-chance that you may live another day, perhaps eventually gain your freedom? Or do you go into Matrix-mode and levitate into the air, knock the guns out of the ten men's hands, kung-fu them to death, grab your family and teleport to that magical country somewhere were people love Jews?

[cratz2]

I'm not sure how closely it holds to what really happened, but if it's at all close I can't believe what the Jews put up with. I guess they just didn't have a strong enough desire to be free. You have no idea what they were putting up with... struggling to get by. Many tried to leave but how easy do you think it was? No doubt many stuck together thinking it was nobler to help your family, friends etc stay safe than to leave by yourself.

Imagine if right now in Arkansas they decide to 'contain' all Asians... all the borders are closed, any Asians are detained and rounded up on sight and if you resist... oh well... kill 'em.

It's easy to put up a poorly thought-out tough guy act in this post but then, from the wording of your post, you would have no doubt, found a way to sneak out yourself leaving your wife, three small children and your parents behind to fend for themselves. Way to go. :rolleyes:

[QKRTHNU]

You are told that you will be reunited with your missing family and given a new job that will allow you to work for your freedom so you can go wherever you want again.
Working a job to earn freedom is not an option. I would tell them no thanks. Like I said, they should have left by then. It's best to avoid a bad situation to begin with.

And they wouldn't have to go to a magical county where people love Jews as you say. They would just have to go somewhere that they're not being told what they can and can't do because their Jews. Switzerland would have been a good choice, but certainly not the only one.

Fighting is never a good option.

I only mentioned fighting when faced with certain death.

[9mmepiphany]

you also have to remember a couple of other things:

1. where would they go? it is hard for many americans to understand the restrictions in travel that exist today thoughout europe...can they even comprehend what it was like in the 30's and 40's. remember that back then few people travel even 100 miles from their birthplace...and they had no homeland to return to.

2. the jews had a history of being treated as second class citizens...having been condemed by the church (13th century?), and resented by the nobles, for usury.

[chadintex]

My understanding of the situation was that communal pressure to go along and not endanger the rest of the population was pretty intense amongst the Jews. Religous elders believed that since Jews had been persecuted against since the beginning of time and survived, that this too would be survivable. A good book on this subject is Mila 18 by Leon Uris, I recommend it highly.

I don't know what I or other Americans would do in such a situation and pray we never have to find out.

[QKRTHNU]

1. where would they go? it is hard for many americans to understand the restrictions in travel that exist today thoughout europe...can they even comprehend what it was like in the 30's and 40's. remember that back then few people travel even 100 miles from their birthplace...and they had no homeland to return to.
Many Blacks made the journey on the underground-railroad to escape the south. Many with children & elderly.

Seeing as they traveled much further distances and stood out even more so than a white Jew would in Europe it's not implausible.

[moa]

You cannot fight without weapons. When the Warsaw ghetto went for several hundreds of thousands to about 60,000 is when the Jewish citizens determined they really had nothing left to lose. They got some weapons and some of them fought back.

The Polish citizens of Warsaw did the same thing the following year. In both cases the citizens lost because they were fighting a very tough and ruthless modern foreign military that had most of the advantages.

All in all, partisan forces in the East tied up a significant amount of German and their allies' military resouces for years.

[Sleeping Dog]

At about the same time, didn't we round up anyone who was Japanese or descended from Japanese and send them to concentration camps?

The treatment was much better here, obviously, but the death part may have surprised the folks moved to Dachau or some other camp.

Here, the Japanese-ish people could possibly have escaped to another country, but where would they go? Japan? Probably not, they were Americans.

It's possible that a lot of Jews thought that they were German, so their country wouldn't do any real harm to them.

Maybe they should have thought more "tactical".

Regards.

[9mmepiphany]

the blacks had a place to go..the north...where would the jews go? remember that the swiss were neutural, not friendly

[Correia]

I have to jump in on one thing here. We keep beating the horse about Not Knowing What You Would Do Because You Weren't There. Heck, I've brought it up before myself when I've heard how corageous some people are over the anonymous internet. (recent 44 minute LAPD thread).

However if you want to really know how you are going to react when you face a decision like that, don't wait until that moment. Make your decision now.

Are you willing to fight? Decide now, not when the Nazi is smashing your face in with a rifle butt.

Are you willing to shoot somebody? Decide now before the home invader is kicking your bedroom door in.

We teach the same things to our kids. Are you going to avoid drugs? Decide now, not when your buddy is offering you a hit at a party.

So I don't totally buy into the don't know what you are going to do because you weren't there argument. By that logic, are you going to be faithful to your wife, or are you going to cheat on her? If you answer, "don't know, ain't had the chance." then you are an idiot. :)

Odds are if you wait to decide how you are going to react until the moment is upon you, then you are screwed.

So tell yourself that you are going to fight. If you have a choice between dying and fighting. Take fighting.

[Ladybug]

Many Jews did try to flee, some successfully, most not. Even if they had the resources to flee (which most did not), and managed to escape the authorities, they still had problems finding a place to go. Even the United States turned away a boat of Jews, who then tried to go to Cuba, where they were also turned away. Eventually, they returned to Europe, where many of them died in death camps and detention centers. Telling the Nazis "no thank you" to the concentration camps probably would have meant your life would end that day as opposed to some later point. Switzerland closed its border to Jews and other refuges in 1942, when things were most desperate for the Jews. Please stop pretending that you are smarter and more "freedom-loving" than millions of people, and you somehow know what you would have done in their shoes.

[QKRTHNU]

Many Jews did try to flee, some successfully, most not.
At least they tried though.

I'm talking about those that didn't.

[Ladybug]

Well, there were many Jews who survived the concentration camps, and many who died trying to flee the country... so who's smarter there? Sometimes, when you are so massively out-gunned, fighting is not the best strategy. If you have ten men aiming guns at your head, and you are not armed, saying "no thanks" is not nesessarily the best option.

[Baba Louie]

Sleeping Dog,
Only the west coast japanese descendents were interred I believe. Earl Warren, then CA A.G. (later supreme court justice...how's that for irony?) helped lead the way.

Q
As to the Jews in Europe... where to go?
Spain? Fascism under Franco.
France? Helped round them up.
Poland? USSR?
Czechoslovakia, Austria, Italy?
Belguim or the Netherlands?
Your family, your work and life is in one town, you speak one language (maybe two), you've spent the last 2000 years being screwed around by every Chritian, Muslim and pagan... you learn to persevere, made it part of your dogma.
Read Michner's "The Source" for a good description or Leon Uris "The Haj".
Maybe if you're an educated professional or artisian (maybe) and have lots of money and political contacts in America (Einstein and his ilk) you can get out. That's what... 5% maybe out of the total?

You're thinking like an American who was fortunate enough to have forefathers who knew about being suppressed and wrote in that guarantee about arms.
Your family probably weathered wild natives trying to kill them while they took over the old hunting grounds so you have a martial streak in you, or maybe your family emigrated over in the late 19th century. Hardy, yet poor and hated in your new country, the USofA.

Different set of background cultural and ethnic beliefs totally.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their mocassins... I personally wouldn't want to walk in those particular mocassins during 1933 - 1945.

Only the Zionists ended up being fighters. Look what they've accomplished in Israel; what it took to get there and how they fare in todays world, especially with their loverly neighbors wanting them all DEAD AND GONE FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

Tough call.

Spineless?

Maybe part of some plan.

Tragic?

For sure.

Great movie by the way.

Adios

[gyrfalcon]

If you want to understand what happened to the ghetto Jews in WWII you should read an excellent book by Rich Cohen, "The Avengers". It tells the story of a few Jews from Vilna, Lithuania who fought the Nazis very successfully and went on to fight for Israel. The book is too long to summarize here, but the bottom line is that most of the victims refused to believe what was happening even in the face of convincing evidence. For a parallel look at the ridiculous beliefs of liberal Democrats in spite of the evidence of the failures of socialist programs. Man's ability to delude himself is unlimited.

[spacemanspiff]

a little over a week ago i was at a restaurant and i noticed an older lady walking by who had numbers tattooed on her arm. i didnt have to ask her about them to know she recieved it in a concentration camp. she was in her late 60's/early 70's so she was rather young while there. would you call her or her family members who likely died at the hands of the nazis 'spineless'?

[Dot_mdb]

QKRTHNU,

Read some books and learn more. Did you know that the U.S. government moved (interned) all Japanese people who lived on the west coast at the start of WWII? They were all moved to camps away from the coast. They were decent people and they didn't struggle. They were just lucky that they were living in the U. S. and not Germany.

The Jews had been kicked out of their homeland almost 2,000 years before Germany even existed. They disbursed all over Europe, Asia and the Arab world. In every country they were treated as second class citizens. Usually not allowed to own land or participate in any business or activity that was reserved for the real citizens. Many Jews learned basic crafts or became educated in things like medicine. You know why? So that when they got thrown out of a country they could take their means of earning a living with them . . . in their heads.

Jews had lived in Germany for many years. By the 1940's German Jews considered themselves to be GERMAN. They spoke the language and were business owners. Many had fought for Germany during the First World War. They were successful and their situation was better in Germany than it had been in many other countries.

Some Jews were able to escape. Albert Einstein was well known and was admitted to the U.S. But if you were not so well known there was no where to go. Britain? No, France? France had been anti-semetic for years and years. Spain? Spain threw out all of their Jews in 1492. Russia? Ever heard of Pogroms? Switzerland? The Swiss even refused entry to Jews who escaped Germany and forced them back to be killed in the concentration camps. Poland? There was a reason why the Germans built concentration camps in Poland. After the war some Jewish survivors tried returning to their homes in Poland and were killed by their Polish neighbors after Germany had been defeated!

Now, remember this. The Jews had no organized army. They had no arms. In a few places were they managed to get guns they put up a good reisitance such as in the Warsaw Ghetto. But what were the chances of success? The French army only lasted about 6 weeks against the Germans in 1939. The Belgians and the Poles folded in less time than that. How could the Jews of Europe hope to stand up to the Germans when they were usually untrained in weapons and didn't even own weapons?

Now, look at how the situation has changed and also how it hasn't. The Jews are back in Israel. They have had to fight more often for their survival in the last 55 years than probably any other country. They are strong and many of the weapons they have developed are prized all over the world. The Israeli army, air force and intelligence services are admired or feared all over the world. But, also look at things like how countries vote in the UN. How many countries will vote to support the Israeli position on anything? The answer is that very few countries, even democracies will ever support the Israeli position.

Bill

[Frohickey]

Here is a snippet from a document long ago, even before Hitler was born. Mankind hasn't changed much since then, and it still hasn't.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Bonus question is "Who wrote this quote, and from where is it from?"

Math question is "How long between this quote, and the Jewish Holocaust?"

[Frohickey]

They are strong and many of the weapons they have developed are prized all over the world.

Um... you don't see the Desert Eagle being used by Spec Ops. :p

[Carlos Cabeza]

Question, how would one be labeled "Juden" or Jew, by their surnames, eye color, stature or build. Maybe I have lived in america too long and don't see many of the subtle differences that makes us all individuals but I fail to see how they were discriminated from others. Someone please explain.

Also, I have not seen the movie.

[Gordon Fink]

I guess they just didn’t have a strong enough desire to be free.

…

Hopefully if anything like this ever happens here I’ll do my best and not to be in that situation to begin with.

How free are you?

You must ask permission to operate your private vehicle, to own a firearm, to marry, and to conduct business—just to name a few “freedoms.” In many cases, you are restricted in the manner with which you may dispose of your own property. You are prohibited from owning many types of weapons and from carrying any weapon, in most cases. You are, in fact, prohibited from owning real property. You are also prohibited from consuming many types of pharmaceuticals. You may be incarcerated for paperwork “violations” or any number of other victimless, non-violent offenses. Many natural behaviors are proscribed or regulated by “law,” and you can bet there is always someone ready to tell you what you can or cannot do with your own body. Finally, a significant fraction of your earnings is taken from you under the threat of force.

How strong is your desire to be free? How much more will you take before you fight back?

~G. Fink

[Ladybug]

Question, how would one be labeled "Juden" or Jew, by their surnames, eye color, stature or build. Maybe I have lived in america too long and don't see many of the subtle differences that makes us all individuals but I fail to see how they were discriminated from others. Someone please explain.

Under Nazi rule, all German citizens were required to carry something called a "Ahnenpass" - it was like a passport, but it recorded your geneology for several generation, noting the nationality and religion of you parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. Each page had to be stamped with a swastika. Also, if you move to a small town you will notice that everyone knows everyone else's religion, occupation, etc. - that's kind of how all of Germany was at the time. People in Europe don't really move around the way Americans do, and families usually know other families for many generations. Once it was determined that someone did not have a "clean" heritage, and were Jewish, they were forced to wear stars sewn onto their clothing. Remember too, it was not just Jews who were targeted - gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people, etc. Basically, if you did NOT fit a certain mold, you were likely to be harassed, or even killed, just for who you were.

[moa]

Frohickey, I will bite.

Our Declaration of Independence written mostly by Thomas Jefferson in 1776 which is 157 years from 1933 when Hitler came to power.

Did I flunk or pass?

[Carlos Cabeza]

Thank you very much Ladybug, I needed a little clarification. I did not realize people were targeted for other differences such as you listed at the end of your post. How very horrible, I cannot believe this happened such a short time ago. :(

Larry C, I saw your post and realized something, not many people have "convictions" like you spoke of anymore.
And to those I say "Not meaning how many times you have been proven guilty by a judge/jury" .................

[Ian Sean]

Mom was 17 when WW2 was over. She and her entire family lived in Frankfurt. I had an uncle sent to a Concentration camp for political re-education. He was caught listening to the radio, the BBC. He got in even more trouble for having certain banned books. Such as Jack Londons', The Call of the Wild.

My Great Uncle Ernst was released after about a year. My mom said he was always one of her favorites growing up. Someone who today would probably fit right in here, a free thinker and radical of sorts. His job is what saved his life and got his release. His employer vouched for him and apparently he was involved in an electronics firm as a technician deemed vital to the war effort.

After he was released my Mom said he was never the same. The fun-loving, outgoing man was a withdrawn burned out shell.

On to Mom, once she forgot to give her school teacher the Nazi salute as she walked by (much as a subordinate does in the military). Mom was forced to stand outside the school doors for 6 hours with her right arm raised.

These were regular people, very afraid, who didn't fight back, how were the Jews expected to?

Upon the conclusion of the war, my Grandfather, a machinist by trade and having no political affiliation. Was made a Police officer by the US Army. Going through Nazi records at the local HQ he found out who all the local rats were, and his family was deemed "politically unreliable" by the Nazi Party. They were slated to be forced out of their home and relocated. Basically the modest working class house in the Frankfurt suburb was to good for them, but better for some Nazi slob.

The socialist scourge didn't stop at the jews, the German people too were terrified of the goings on. This is why I have little patience for the gun-grabbers or any left socialist type propaganda or program, and offer them no quarter. I am only one generation removed from the hell of that regime. Mom is still pretty fiesty (75 now) and gets worked up on freedom issues from time to time.

[Cosmoline]

...that taking a bullet to the back of the head is not such a bad option. It's very easy to sit here in hope and freedom, passing judgment on a people who had neither.

The lesson is, be careful about letting them take away your freedoms. It will happen bit by bit if you let it, until evenutually you have nothing left to fight for and you simply submit.

The blame for what happen should fall on the people who did the killing, not on those who were murdered. Frankly we should never have allowed a single member of the SS or the Nazi party hierarchy survive that war. We were way, way too nice to them.

[Oleg Volk]

Avoidance of conflict is built into most people, and lack of reliable information makes it easier to justify cooperation over desperate fighting. We know, in our minds, that cooperation with evil is always a losing strategy...but how many of us would fold facing lesser odds than a pistol against a tank. A roadblock with a couple of armored foes with M16s would do it for most here.

Having studied the WW2 events in detail, I am impressed that a few fought after all, not that most didn't. We, with the benefits of hindsight and more respources and better access to information, still can't always predict what we would do should we ever notice ominous parallels.

That said, I think that the policy of hunting down anyone who ever offered an unprovoked threat of violence while in official capacity to be beneficial for humanity as a whole. I think it was a mistake not to execute anyone who ever wore Gestapo or Stasi or NKVD uniform the moment we got our hands on their necks. On that I disagree with less impulsive friends here...

[QKRTHNU]

To all the responses talking about concentration camps:

If you're in a camp it's over. WAYYYY Toooo Late to act.

I can't believe hundreds of thousands of people would go along with being moved to a ghetto in the first place (again, I'm not talking about concentration camps. I'm talking years before this.)

If they would have resisted upfront it would have saved many lives (Yes, hindsight is 20/20)

But on an individual / family level if you're being forced to live in a certain area and have a myriad of restrictions placed on you, then you are basically a prisoner. And if you aren't physically restrained in some fashion and don't leave than you are a WILLING prisoner.

But that thought was kind of secondary in my post anyway.

My main point was about that execution scene.

As has already been mentioned, it was a hard lesson to learn, but the survivors and successive generations now know better.

[Baba Louie]

And it goes on today.
Bosnia, Iraq, Rwanda...
And here we sit, and there, they died by the thousands and thousands.

Q, you write...

"But that thought was kind of secondary in my post anyway.

My main point was about that execution scene. They must have either
1. Wanted to die
2. Feared protesting their own death for the sake of others
3. Been outright cowards"

How about....

4. Unarmed

Now, switch it to No. 1 and drop the other 3?

That sounds about right to me.

Adios

[Cosmoline]

I get the sense that many posters simply don't have much knowledge of European history. The Jews of Europe had long been periodically rounded up. It had been happening on and off for two thousand years. Pogroms weren't uncommon in the East, and frankly just putting all the Jews in one neighborhood probably seemed mild punishment to the Jews of the period. In fact, many probably thought it was best to keep away from the madness overtaking the continent. I have no doubt they expected to weather this storm as they had weathered so many others. In fact, they DID weather the storm. So maybe they knew best after all.

While this nation hasn't seen anything on the level of the Nazi oppression, there is plenty of evidence from our own history to show that when one group seeks to exterminate another, 99% of the oppressors do nothing to stop it. But we also see that the oppressed who fight back the hardest in the end have survived longest. Native tribes are good example. Those who fought back were the least impacted by white diseases and survived in larger numbers than those who accepted white rule peacefully. Many of the peaceful tribes went extinct, in fact. Killed off through a combination of murder, disease, and absorbtion.

The one great lesson we can take from all of this is to keep a good stock pile of ammo handy in case we get to play the role of oppressed minority one day. If you're not ready for it, you might as well just turn around and take that bullet to the back of the head.

[spacemanspiff]

My main point was about that execution scene. They must have either
1. Wanted to die
2. Feared protesting their own death for the sake of others
3. Been outright cowards
no flame intended, but thats a very ignorant statement to make. consider the psychological terror the nazis used. if you didnt comply they would persecute your family. they used every method they could think of to force their subjects to be 100% under their control.
if you were faced with being tortured or killed and your noncompliance with your captors demands would result in your family suffering further, what would you do? be a hero for a minute or two? or would you be thinking about the welfare of your loved ones?

consider also their living conditions. they worked in physical labor continuously, were fed very little, were very malnourished and dehydrated. what kind of defense could they put up?

[jacketch]

Do nothing vs run away?

Seems like the slimeball who directed the movie (Roman Polanski)made the choice to run, all the way to France. When he comes back to face the music I'll consider seeing the movie!

[winstonsmith]

How dare you. HOW DARE YOU.

I'm sorry. I'll calm down enough to speak intelligibly.

"Where people really this spineless?"

Some people were. The people that weren't and resisted were shot. Their families along with them. If your wife and children were also in a camp, the Nazis would know who they were. They kept meticulously good records. If you resisted in any way, they would hang your family. In front of you. Then they would kill you. Be threatened with that, and still talk tough.

I think that if you take your knowledge of the holocaust from a movie, then you might want to reconsider forming any strong opinions on it. You'll probably embarass yourself and anger others. Like some of you have.

Oh yeah, and have you ever heard of the Warsaw Revolt? Oh yeah, forget about that, did you. Or maybe you didn't even know. I hope, for my sanities sake, that its the first one.

Some of you are talking about those people like they were some sort of lemmings. How about you stop talking about my people like that and saying "oh I would have done this?" I'm not angry enough those few people that are saying these things that I don't pray to g-d that they don't have to go through it.

Someone mentioned being physically restrained. I think that large amounts of well fed Nazi guards with shmeissers and german sherperds guarding the perimeters, plus electric fenses constitutes physical restraints.

We Jews are not lemmings. In fact, many of the jewish families I know are stockpiling weapons for the "Fourth Reich."

In one of the early posters defense, however, age has nothing to do with it. I'm 14.

[gyrfalcon]

QKRTHNU you miss the point because you look at the world from the modern perspective and know what happened in WWII. You do not have the world view of the European Jews in the Nazi age. The Jews did not know and did not want to believe they would be executed in the Nazi concentration camps any more than the Japanese-Americans expected to be executed in the American concentration camps. Jews were second class citizens in Europe the way Blacks were second class citizens in the South after the American Civil War. Protesting would only get you beaten up or killed. Ghettos were actually safer than living elsewhere if it was even permitted. It is well known that most people entering gas chambers thought they were going into showers. If your whole life you have been treated only one small step above a slave it is pretty hard to resist and fight back. An example to consider, how often do unarmed modern American people fight back when accosted by armed robbers or kidnappers even when they know they may be killed without warning?

[goalie]

All I know is that the Jews in Israel will fight now, and who can blame them? What pisses me off is people who act suprised when the Israelis use violence against those that hate them and try to bomb busloads of children. While I think they should quit expanding the settlements, I wholeheartedly agree with meeting the force and hatred of those attacking you with genocidal intentions with superior force. They tried pacifism and it didn't work. More power to them.

[winstonsmith]

A punk song I had the misfortune of hearing addressed the Israel subject in a way that I agreed with

They said: "The deed is the gun in your hand."

They acted like that was a bad thing.

The Jews escaping from the holocaust took that land that was desert and made it into a mediterranean paradise through massive landscaping and irrigation projects. The Palestinians want back what was there's for no more than 2000 years, but my peoples for the approximately 4000 before it?

In 55 years Israel has done more for the world than "Palestine" had in slightly less than 2000.

Two words for the Arabs who want "their" land back.

MOLON LABE

[jmbg29]

So far, Correia is the one making the most sense.

Figure out where you draw the line, and proactively figure out what you are going to do if/when the line gets crossed.

You all can rag on QKRTHNU because he dared to question the pathetic outcome of the holocaust. Or we all can learn from it by asking ourselves *** are we going to do to see to it that this never happens again.

Personaly, I'm going to continue to teach each and every person that wants to, to learn to defend themselves, kith and kin, hearth and home, God and country, etc... as best as I can.

Everything else is crap.

[Art Eatman]

There are signs around the Dachau Work Camp museum saying, "Never Again". The people who work there are very sincere in their belief that no replication of Hitler and his Nazis should ever occur. However, they rely on political activism and the vote to ensure this.

The Israelis have a saying, "Masada shall not fall again!" and they are not relying on the ballot box. I grant that the threat of genocide under which those Jews live is not internal but external. The Israelis themselves coined the label "Sabra", which I understand is a cactus indigenous to the region.

Looking at governmental behavior in what one might call the "soft" countries of North America and Europe, I'd say the Sabras have the better view. They've learned from history in a way the soft Socialists haven't.

Art

[Mastrogiacomo]

You have to remember, the Jews were used to being treated this way -- they had no way of knowing the situation would get this far out of hand. It's easy to talk about history, another thing entirely to live through it.

[Ladybug]

This thread is disturbing enough that I will relate a personal story I don't often share - JUST to make my point... I was raped when I was 12 years old, and I did not fight back. Now, most people (including 11 and 12 year old girls) will say that, obviously, they would try to fight back or at least scream or try to run or do something. If you had asked me a week earlier what I would do, I probably would have told you how I would fight the guy off. Well, I was a 12 year old girl, weighing all of 70 pounds, stuck in a car with a 25 year old man, who happened to be a soldier and in quite excellent physical condition. I knew he was going to do something to me, and I was scared to death. He drove me to a remote beach, where he raped me. I did not know if he would try to kill me, or hurt me more, if I fought or ran or screamed, so I closed my eyes and pretended I was somewhere else. Being in (even perceived) mortal danger, you do things you cannot forsee. Yes, it is good to plan, and to be as prepared as you can be at all times, and to practice your plans... but until you are actually in that situation, you cannot say for sure what you would do. To call someone else a coward without living their nightmare is beyond insensitive.

By the way, I lived to testify against the man who raped me, and sent him to jail - I don't know what would have happened if I had tried to fight him or scream. Perhaps he would never have raped me, and perhaps he would have killed me.

All I am saying is, when you are unarmed and in the corner, you may have a better chance of survival if you do what you are told... as I said before, there were Jews who walked out of concentration camps to later testify against their torturers. If you are being rounded up, and you say "no thanks", as QKR would, you probably wouldn't have made it another day.

And finally, once again, do NOT presume to know what you would do if you were a different person, in a different time, under different circumstanes - you CANNOT know that. Passing judgements on victims is rarely justified.

[jmbg29]

It's easy to talk about history, another thing entirely to live through it.A perfecy example would be that we are currently living in the early days of WWIII, and the number of people who are oblivious to that fact boggles the mind.

[QKRTHNU]

Ladybug,

You keep referring to me saying "no thanks". I made that statement when you brought up the topic of being offered work in exchange for rights. I would be more inclined to use explicatives if made an offer like that. I said I would say "no thanks" because I would be as polite and appeasing as possible while making plans to get the hell out of dodge.

As to your personal situation, That is a truly horrible experience, I'm glad you are here with us today. At 12 years old you were a child, which makes it even more tragic. Tell us though. If you were again faced with a situation like that today how would you react?

[QKRTHNU]

A perfecy example would be that we are currently living in the early days of WWIII, and the number of people who are oblivious to that fact boggles the mind.
jmbg29,

Did you happen to catch "Hitler: The Rise of Evil " on TV tonight?

When Hitler was pitching the Enabling Act it was scary how closely it resembled the arguments for the Patriot Act.

[Ladybug]

I made that statement when you brought up the topic of being offered work in exchange for rights.

"Offered" being sarcastic - you have ten Nazis pointing a gun at your head, remember? The point was, you don't really have a choice.

If you were again faced with a situation like that today how would you react?

I can't say for sure. But if everything were exactely the same as back then, only I'm grown... if I were armed, I would defend myself. Unarmed, I would probably weight the consequences and situation very carefully - it would be unrealistic for me at 120 lbs to be able to physically beat this guy. I MAY be able to get a good kick in the nuts or jab in the eyes or other such move in, but unlikely. There was no one within hearing distance. And I doubt very highly that I could out-run him long enough to get to safety. Then again, I was babysitting the guy's kids and he was supposed to be driving me home - today I would never be in a situation where a guy I did not know well was driving me anywhere. Even on dates, I always drive myself (oh wait, before I got married, even on dates... ha ha ha).

I think my main point is, we need to learn from history (personal and world history), we should think about what we would do in certain situations, but remember that we really don't know until it happens to us.

[alan]

As has been noted, yes they were, and many if not most would be so today also.

It is also true that he who learns not from history, will relive history. This applies not only to guns, but to many other things also.

[QKRTHNU]

I think my main point is, we need to learn from history (personal and world history), we should think about what we would do in certain situations, but
I agree.
remember that we really don't know until it happens to us.
Like Correia said earlier in the thread there are some decisions we NEED to make now and not later. We need to completely convice ourselves now of how we should and will react.

If you are not confident that you could defend yourself while unarmed I urge you to seek out some kind of self defense training to build up your confidence. Or at the absolute least, always be armed.

[jmbg29]

When Hitler was pitching the Enabling Act it was scary how closely it resembled the arguments for the Patriot Act.Bush = Hitler

Why didn't I see that coming. :rolleyes: :scrutiny: :uhoh: :barf:

[Ladybug]

Okay, my last post I promise, because I'm repeating myself...

We need to completely convice ourselves now of how we should and will react.

Fine. But don't call someone else a coward because they didn't do what you'd like to think you'd do in the same situation. Like I said, I'm sure I would have told you that I would fight/scream/run if I were being raped - unless you've been in a situation like that, you just can't know for sure how you will react. Making comments like the Jews must not have wanted their freedom, or they were spineless cowards is just inappropriate.

[winstonsmith]

Not to mention completely and utterly disrespectful to the memories of the 11 million dead in the holocaust, ladybug.

[JoshM]

And they wouldn't have to go to a magical county where people love Jews as you say. They would just have to go somewhere that they're not being told what they can and can't do because their Jews. Switzerland would have been a good choice, but certainly not the only one.

The creation of a Jewish homeland was an idea formed well before the 1900's. The problem was finding a destination which was possibly interested as most were outright hostile. The list of possible destinations included Uganda [British Africa], Morocco, and British Palestine. Notice how none of these locations are in Europe.

Switzerland during the Second World War actively stopped fleeing Jews. Sadly even my little nation sought to stop Jewish refugees post World War 2 and we are hardly a hotbed of anti jewish feeling.

[Joe Demko]

QKRTHNU,
If you want to tell yourself, and everyone here, what a hard case you are and how you would never behave like that; then fine, dickwave to your heart's content. On the other hand, why don't you refrain from slandering millions of murdered people with words like "spineless" and "coward." Insulting those people's memory does nothing to prove you are the Hero of The Resistance(tm) you'd like to believe yourself.

[HankB]

I don't think that comparing the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII is exactly analogous to the Holocaust - the Japanese-Americans were picked up in a very short time, but the Holocaust went on for years. And many of the Japanese interned were not actually native born or, (thanks to the Oriental Exclusion Act) naturalized, US citizens, but were legally Japanese nationals.

As far as Nazi Germany goes, for those whose neighbors disappeared three years before, and whose friends disappeared two years before, and whose cousins and uncles disappeared the previous year . . . well, it seems there would have been some incentive to do something - ANYthing - to avoid their fate.

Even the first people rounded up and shipped off to Hitler's death camps had a bit of warning . . . take a look at the timeline -

1933 - Hitler proclaims a 1-day boycott of Jewish business
1935 - Jews deprived of citizenship by Nuremburg laws
1936 - Jews prevented from voting in parliamentary elections
1938 - 17,000 Polish Jews shipped to camps in Poland
1939 - Jews required to carry ID cards. Kristallnacht happens in November. Many other restrictions (including prohibition of the ownership of firearms, carrier pigeons, radios, suspension of driver's licenses, etc.) were enacted.

And these are just the major milestones. So . . . the Holocaust was a long time coming. Many saw the writing on the wall and left. With difficulty, true, but by and large they survived. Many more simply didn't want to see what was going on, refused to believe how bad things were . . . and were murdered.

[QKRTHNU]

Bush = Hitler

Why didn't I see that coming.
Huh? When did I say that? I was comparing legislation and excuses for it's need.

Please don't put words into my mouth.

[Art Eatman]

HankB, built into your point is the fact that many, many people work very hard at believing that what's happening isn't really happening.

There are those refusing to believe that a certain percentage of Islamics hate all aspects of western culture and are willing to die in actions against it. There are those believing that the stock market will soon rise. There are those believing that there will be an increase in jobs in manufacturing in the U.S. There are those believing there will be no abuse or misuse of such laws as the Patriot Act, etc. There are those who believe that more money will solve our problems in the realm of education.

Hey, pick a subject: You will find many who refuse to believe that trends exist, or that they will continue...

Art

[alan]

I believe that what Art said so well can be reduced to the following.

Without regard to concrete evidence, some folks insist on sticking their heads in the sand. Sad, but true.

[Ian]

Most Jews in the Holocaust did not value their freedom over their lives - their decisions make this clear. They were generally stuck between two nearly equally abhorrent alternatives, fight back and have their families killed or obey and probably be killed anyway. Between denial of the Nazi plans and the prospect of being able to live until tomorrow, most chose obedience. Only under the most traumatic circumstances did they change their ways. In Warsaw, it took the rapid deportation and murder of more than 250,000 to convince the populace to resist. Many did not change until they wanted their families slaughtered and had to carry their bodies from the gas chambers. Most of the revolts occurred in the death camps themselves, among the Jews who were forced to operate them. Treblinka and Sobibor were shut down by such revolts, as was part of Auschwitz. But the sad fact is that a astonishing amount of brutality was needed before revolt was considered.

Does this make them cowards? I don't know. Many of the fighters displayed extraordinary courage. But most of the victims made a choice - to not endanger themselves and their families more than they had to at any time. They lacked foresight, and they refused to believe that information which was available to them.

For the details of how I came to this conclusion, take a look at my inquiry into the general lack of Jewish resistance to the Holocaust. (http://a-human-right.com/RKBA/jewsfight.html)

HankB - Actually, the Japanese arrested here included a great many native-born, American citizens. And they were held captive for several years under the blessing of at least one Supreme Court ruling.

[Oleg Volk]

A recent film Grey Zone might be worth watching. It covers the revolt at Oswenzim in 1944. Pretty well done movie, just out on DVD.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's an excellent film (accurate gun-handling in it, too).

[Byron Quick]

When Hitler was pitching the Enabling Act it was scary how closely it resembled the arguments for the Patriot Act.

Well, there's a reason for how closely it resembles those arguments. Seems the producer of the film edited Hitler's actual statements of the time for the sole purpose of making the resemblance occur. And is now catching some well deserved criticism.

Watching TV for your knowledge of history might not be the optimum choice.

As far as resistance goes...the majority of the victims of the Holocaust could not believe that things would get that bad. Many did try to leave and were turned away from any possible sanctuary. Most of the victims were killed in ways that did not leave much chance for resistance. Of the few that were killed by bullets to the back of the head, most had been on 1000 calorie diets for months if not years.

Tell you what: What do you say about restricting your access to food for six months. Beyond that, it won't be a balanced diet. As a result you will also be suffering vitamin deficiencies. At the end of the six months get into a boxing ring with a 13 year healthy well fed girl. I'll bet on the girl.

The gradualism of what the Nazis did was the main reason there was so little resistance. By the time that it was obvious that the only choice was between dying on your feet or on your knees, few had the physical strength remaining to stand. And that is literal fact.

[Oleg Volk]

I will also note that growing up in Europe (at least the USSR) wasn't condusive to even thinking about resistence. Government action was viewed as tornados are viewed here, violent, occasional and unstoppable...I know I thought that way as a kid. Took years in America to erase that conditioning.

[QKRTHNU]

Watching TV for your knowledge of history might not be the optimum choice. Very True! But then again neither is reading written accounts a lot of the time. :(
Well, there's a reason for how closely it resembles those arguments. Seems the producer of the film edited Hitler's actual statements of the time for the sole purpose of making the resemblance occur. And is now catching some well deserved criticism.
Do you happen to have a link to information on what was actually said? I assumed there wouldn't be any actual written documentation of Hitlers Arguments and it was all based on heresay.

[Byron Quick]

I don't know about links but you can find Hitler's speech after the Reichstag fire. I do know this. He didn't mention terrorists...that was not the term du jour. He was railing at communists not terrorists during the speech.

[QKRTHNU]

Well in that case, it was just a Modern English translation. Everyone is a terrorist. ;)

[HankB]

Ian wrote:HankB - Actually, the Japanese arrested here included a great many native-born, American citizens. Sir, you are correct - that's what made those actions (by a democRATic administration) so shameful. It was my intention to point out that not all of those Japanese interned were US citizens.

And as a matter of interest, when former internees were lobbying our government for reparations during the '80's, they also called for foreign nationals who'd been interned to be compensated, as prewar policies made it difficult for a Japanese national to gain citizenship.

[RON in PA]

Did the non-Jews of Europe react in ways different than the Jews? It took several years for resistence groups to arise and most people did not join, most people just want to survive. The Germans captured millions of Soviet soldiers in the first year of the Eastern Front, most were dead within a year of capture. Six million Polish citizens died during WW2, 3 million non-Jews and 3 million Jews.

How many slave revolts occurred in this country before the Civil War? Some but not many. Slavery, pogroms and genocide have existed through out human history. Historically governments have been brutal thugs.

[45King]

Hank B wrote:Many more simply didn't want to see what was going on, refused to believe how bad things were . . . and were murdered.

Hope springs eternal. We all have hopes for better things to come. We've all heard the story of Pandora's box, and that Hope was the last to be freed.

The world would be a terrible place without hope....but sometimes, it can be a terrible place BECAUSE of hope. I think this is part of what happened to the Jews...they were hoping for something better to happen. That, along with the very human "it can't happen to ME" attitude.
I can't imagine what it must have been like to live in such desparate circumstances, and it seems reasonable to me that if one lives under too much oppression for too long, one loses all hope and will to live. The "slippery slope" has a psychological effect as well, apparently. (See Oleg's last post about such violence coming to be accepted as part of the norm.)

When the writing is appearing on the wall in blood, it is time to stop hoping and time to start fighting. May all of us and all future generations be blessed with enough wisdom to realize when it's time to stop hoping and take action.

[another okie]

One thing people forget is that there were Jews in every army fighting the Germans: the American army, the British army, the Soviet army and so on.

Another fact that is useful to understand is that in fact many German Jews had fled long before 1941, when the Holocaust proper started. Most of the victims of the Holocaust were citizens of Poland, the Soviet Union, Hungary, or some other country which was invaded by Germany or cooperated with Germany. The chance of Germany overrunning their country and killing millions of helpless people must have seemed pretty remote, about as remote as China overrunning the U.S. and killing all the gun owners or all the Christians.

I would also have to say that it is impossible for most Americans to understand the highly controlled world of Europeans at that time, let alone the world of the Jewish ghetto. I spent some time behind the Iron Curtain and I can tell you that governments can indeed break the spirit of the public and coerce and manipulate them into compliance with almost anything.

There is a good book by Willy Lindwer, the Last Six Months of Anne Frank (I may have the title slightly wrong.) In it he interviews people who knew Anne Frank in the transit camps and at Bergen-Belsen, where she died. One of those interviewed discussed this very question, why didn't they fight more? And she said, Well, we had no weapons and they did, and if we killed a German they would kill ten of us. And they didn't know what was waiting for them.

[H Romberg]

The Holocaust was an object lesson in the theory of incrimentalism. Small changes, over time, each in and of itself innocuous, allowed the Nazis to strip part of their nation of freedom, wealth, the ability, and finally the will to resist. There's a lesson for us in that. The writing is on the wall for gun owners. If we don't change the trend somehow, it won't be long till we find ourselves in the same situation as the Brits and Aussies.

[CZ-100]

Small changes, over time, each in and of itself innocuous, allowed the Nazis to strip part of their nation of freedom, wealth, the ability, and finally the will to resist.

Kind of like if you throw a frog into boiling water, he will jump out, but if you put him into room temp water and slowly turn up the heat he will cook to death. :evil:

[DJJ]

it seems reasonable to me that if one lives under too much oppression for too long, one loses all hope and will to live. The "slippery slope" has a psychological effect as well, apparently. (See Oleg's last post about such violence coming to be accepted as part of the norm.)

For more on this, do a web search on the phenomenon "learned helplessness".

[moa]

Yesterday at Borders and Books I found an astonishing book about the Holocaust. I have just started reading it and it is hard to put down.

If you go to Amazon.com you read excerts from the book plus many reviews.

This is a book about the Nazi Order Police (Ordo for short in German). It mostly covers the well documented actions of 101 Reserve Police Battlion.

What is unique about them is that they are just ordinary middle age, lower-class to middle-class German men mostly from the Hamburg region. Few were actual career police and not many were members of the Nazi Party, or SS, etc.

However, they and the other counterpart battlions where engaged in the slaughter of many thousands of Jews and others. IIRC the 101st killed at least 38,000 Jews by their own reckoning. They functioned just like the notorious SS Einsatzgruppen.

These were very ordinary men, most of whom came from what is considered the least Nazified city in Germany, Hamburg. That is what makes the book so amazing. These guys were stone, in-your-face killers of all ages and both sexes. Some of the accounts are absolutely bizarre. One example is of only ten members of the 101st where assigned the transport of more than 8,000 Jews by rail. They Jews were attempting to escape the rail cars by the hundreds (est. 180-200 Jews per car). The Order Police ran out of ammunition including 200 extra rounds they bummed off the German Army, trying to stop the escapes. It was estimated 2,000 Jews died in the rail cars because of the conditions like summer heat, etc.

Many of their accounts of mass round-ups and shootings remark that no resistance was met. Later the 101st got involved in anti-partisan and regular military operations and some were killed or wounded. Very few after the war were indicted or punished.

[moa]

I knew I forgot something. Title of book is "Ordinary Men". Duh!

[Byron Quick]

Some of the Jews who resisted the Nazis later found that they should have been less discriminatory in target selection:

http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_doc/photos/1392?hr=null

[Dain Bramage]

In addition to the "learned helplessness" of the holocaust victims, some of the threads here are discussing the "banality of evil" of the perpetraters. All across Europe, "Ordinary Men", as a previous entry listed a book title, were committing the most ghastly atrocities.

I watched a European documentary filmed in the '90s, where a Lithuanian member of a Nazi-controlled killing squad was interviewed. It was pointed out that the members were volunteers. The young man running the interview was trying to understand what drove men into such butchery. He kept asking the elderly veteran probing questions, but only got blank-faced replies, "It was a different time" and "I was following orders".

The only time the old guy got red-faced and upset, was when he was asked if he new it was wrong. He seemed indignant that the youngster was insulting him, and not for any sorrow for his victims.

We may never truly understand the psychology of evil.

[moa]

"Ordinary Men" discusses the "Lithuanian" companies assigned to assist the Order Police. The Lithuanians apparently went about their tasks with greater enthusiasm than their German colleagues.

[Art Eatman]

I think it was Amnesty International--although I'm not sure--had a set of interviews made with known torturers, maybeso ten years back. Government employees whose job was to discover information or get confessions. Argentina and Guatemala come to mind, although some other countries were mentioned.

Almost uniformly these men were reportedly banal and boring. Most were married and had children, and lived rather quiet home lives. "That nice family, next door..."

Art

[pax]

Excerpts from the trial of Adolf Eichmann, found at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-021-03.html
Attorney General: At that time you didn't believe that the programme was to destroy the Jewish people?

Witness Gurfein: No.

Q. Despite the fact that you had heard reports from Belzec?

A. We received reports, but the spark of hope, nevertheless, still flickered in our hearts and we hoped that, perhaps, despite this, some miracle would occur. They kept promising day and night that they were stopping the deportations, the exterminations. But in view of the fact that the train turned in the direction of Rawaruska, we managed to force the window open and several of the people in the train jumped out. Each time a person jumped out, we heard shots. On each waggon there was an SS man with a machine gun. At approximately 2 o'clock in the morning - this was beyond Yaroslav - my mother pushed me from the waggon and told me to jump. I jumped from the waggon.

...

Q. Tell me, at the railway station when they packed you into the train going to Belzec, when you thought that it was likely to go to Belzec why didn't you resist, why didn't you board the train?

A. We no longer had any strength left. Very simply, we wanted it to end quickly. This was in 1943. After so many years we did not have the strength to resist any more.

Q. You wanted it to end?

A. We wanted to die more quickly.

Q. Then why did you jump from the window?

A. There nevertheless was an impulse. For from the moment that we saw that the train was going in the direction of Belzec some spark was ignited. We saw someone jumping and some spark was kindled within people who wanted to save themselves. I wouldn't have jumped, if my mother hadn't pushed me forcibly.

Excerpts from They Thought They Were Free, by Milton Meyer, found at
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html It is written from the perspective of an ordinary German, not a Jew -- but the reasons why they did what they did are much the same.

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

[pax]

How strong is your desire to be free? How much more will you take before you fight back?
Gordon Fink,

You make a good point -- one that Jefferson answered, as someone else pointed out. "...all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed."

It is human nature not to fight back against government. "You can't fight City Hall" was probably a truism long before there was such a thing as a City Hall.

Jeff Cooper points out, "It is interesting to hear certain kinds of people insist that the citizen cannot fight the government. This would have been news to the men of Lexington and Concord, as well as the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan." Cooper is right, but it's not a question of can't. "All experience hath shewn" that the citizen won't.

Not until it is too late, too bloody, and too dangerous to do anything but win -- or die trying.

pax

The limitation of tyrants is the endurance of those they oppose. – Frederick Douglass

If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. -- Winston Churchill

[pax]

Another excerpt from the Eichmann trial, this one found at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-021-08.html

Witness Beisky: It was said in the camp that young Haubenstock had sung a Russian tune. The offence of the engineer Krautwirt - I don't know. The boy was hanged and something happened which occurs once in many thousands of cases - the rope broke. The boy stood there, he was again lifted on to a high chair which was placed under the rope, and he began to beg for mercy. An order was given to hang him a second time. And then he was raised a second time to the gallows, and hanged, and thereafter that same Amon Goeth, with his own hands, also fired a shot.

The engineer Krautwirt, throughout that time, stood on the second chair, and here the perfidy went even further. SS men, with their guns, and machine guns, passed through the ranks, and gave orders to all those standing on the ground to watch. Engineer Krautwirt cut the veins of his hands with a razor blade, and in this condition went up to the gallows.

Q. While his blood was running?

A. While his blood was running. And in this way he was hanged. I don't know, it is hard to describe these things, when standing around there are not tens but hundreds of SS men with guns and fixed bayonets, and machine guns, and one had to stand there and look on. It was a sight...

Q. 15,000 people stood there - and opposite them hundreds of guards. Why didn't you attack then, why didn't you revolt?

A. I believe that this thing cannot be explained - it cannot be answered. To this there is no single reply. What I can talk of is the general situation. And perhaps from this it can be deduced.

It will certainly be difficult for anyone who was not there to understand, but after all, this happened in the middle of 1943. This was already in the third year of the War, and it didn't begin with this. It began with something else. The people were already, the whole of Jewry was already in a state of depression owing to what they had endured, during three years. This is one thing. And the second - nevertheless there was still hope. Here were people working on forced labour, they apparently needed this work. Possibly, maybe...it was plain at that time that if anyone did the pettiest thing - for it was not difficult when people, when many forces were standing there...may I now be permitted to sit?

Presiding Judge: Certainly, you may also rest for a while.

Witness Beisky: First of all, I can no longer - and I acknowledge this - after eighteen years I cannot describe this sensation of fear. This feeling of fear, today when I stand before Your Honours, does not exist any longer and I do not suppose that it is possible to define it for anyone. After all this thing is ultimately a terror-inspiring fear. People stand facing machine guns, and the mere fact of gazing upon the hanging of a boy and his cries - and then, in fact, no ability remains to react.

Something else: The belief in the fact that nevertheless the War would somehow come to an end, that we should not, because of that, endanger 15,000 people. One could ask something else: If we did, where could we go? Nearby us there was a Polish camp. There were 1,000 Poles and there, too, were shootings from time to time under no better conditions than ours. One hundred metres beyond the camp they had a place to go to - their homes. I don't recall one instance of escape on the part of the Poles. But where could any of the Jews go?

We were wearing clothes which at that time were not the garments of the concentration camps, but all the clothes were dyed yellow, with those yellow stripes. The hair at the centre of the head was not cut, but they made a kind of swath in a stripe 4 cms in width. And at that moment, let us suppose that the 15,000 people within the camp even succeeded without armed strength, empty-handed, let us suppose that they even did manage to go beyond the boundaries of the camp - where would they go? What could they do?

But inside the camp it seemed, at any rate - and let us not forget this, Your Honours, in 1943 we did not yet know what was the fate of our families and what had happened to all those who had been taken away in the deportations - this became known to us only much later. Therefore, there was also the hope that by carrying on with the work...it was impossible to imperil the lives of 15,000 people.

These are, moreover not the only reasons, Your Honours. Anyone today trying to find the causes - I do not know whether he could find them for one simple reason: it is not physically possible to present the conditions of those days in the courtroom, and I do not believe, Heaven forbid, that people will not understand this, but I myself cannot explain it and I experienced this on my own person. Accordingly, the question perhaps can be asked from the dialectic point of view, but the conditions of those times cannot be described.

These were things, situations, which were completely different. And I will quote one other example, a very classic example: there was a martyr in our camp. All of us were in the situation in which we found ourselves. But let us take Engineer Greenberg, one of the most beloved inmates of the camp who was appointed to plan the construction of the huts. I cannot really remember this man without bruises and without a bandaged head and without wounds. This man on every single day - either they set dogs on him, or he received beatings, 100 lashes or 25, or simply fist blows, because in a particular place the jobs were not performed.

This same man who more than once implored the camp commandant "Goeth - Shoot me," he himself never committed suicide. This is even stranger: but his wife and daughter were in that camp - I think his daughter lives in Jerusalem. His wife and daughter were from time to time thrown into prison in order to frighten him into committing something. It was a fact that this man underwent, in addition to what the inmates of the camp endured - if there are 100 stages of hell and not seven, he went through them all in his lifetime. Ultimately he was killed - he is no longer alive. But it is a fact, that was the situation. Try to explain it today - you will not find the explanation, these were different conditions, something had already befallen Polish Jewry before we reached Plaszow.

Judge Halevi: You were mistaken in the number when you said the "third year," four years had already passed and you had entered upon the fifth.

A. This was in the middle of 1943. And they began, in fact, before the War, on 1 September. I am still describing events that took place up to June and July 1943, that is to say in the course of three years. But if Your Honour will permit me this remark, these three years were much more than ten times as many in the most terrible conditions that the human mind can picture to itself from the point of view of physical possibility.
...
Incidentally, if I may be allowed to recall this, the Attorney General asked my why they did not rise up during this period. I shall give a better example. There was also, in fact, no difficulty, not for me personally, to escape during the time that I was at my place of work in the gas works, since in the course of the work there was the possibility...

Q. The municipal gasworks in Cracow?

A. Yes. Moreover, of the group to which I belonged before the War - Hanoar Hazioni (The Zionist Youth) - a few managed to cross into Slovakia. On two occasions a representative was sent to get me out. Those two are living in Israel today. One was Frederika Maze who lives in Rehovot and the other was Zelig Weil who lives in Haifa. Both of them met me near the gates of the camp and informed me that it had become possible to smuggle a number of people to Slovakia. And some of our comrades, most of whom are today in Israel, succeeded in crossing to Slovakia.

But it is not a simple matter, when you have 70-80 persons from the same town, amongst them my two brothers, to flee the camp when you know that in the afternoon of the same day the entire group would no longer be alive. And consequently people did not dare to do this so easily, even when the chance existed and even when, at the time, still in 1943, crossing into Slovakia appeared to be a kind of promise of life. And it is a fact - I did not do so. These two people reached Palestine; the one Frederika Maze, managed to get here - at the beginning of 1944 and brought the first tidings.